FE9 Tier List

[Narga_Rocks]

You actually can't even beat prologue without Ike :o

Yeah, I almost always forget that chapter even exists. Oops.

I tend to ignore factors where only a single unit can ever do it, and without it, it's 100% impossible to beat the game. For example, Ike killing the BK/Ashera in FE10, lords or a certain unit seizing, etc. That single action will give them infinite value, no matter how good or bad they are for the other parts of the game. On the flip side, stuff like thief utility when they're the only thief around (e.g. Matthew silver card) don't fall under that category, since it's still possible to beat the game without him/her, it's just a lot harder.

Which is why Ike being "absent" means that you still get an extra unit slot but we don't consider that he is now not able to seize and thus we aren't left unable to continue. Hence, Oscar v. Ike is Oscar + x units v. Ike + x units.

As for his tier list position under that assumption, I'd rather others argue it since I'm not as good at PoR as I once was.

[Life]

Surprisingly, I like a lot of this list except for:

Upper Middle

People

Shinon

The fuck he doing up there? Last I checked, Shinon was in a horrible class with terrible bases. Even through training, there's no way that he's better than Haar.

No, no, no. Just no. Shinon does NOT kill on doubles. The best example to prove this is Chapter 24 when you have both Shinon and Haar for the first time. The reason why I'm doing this is to put this argument to bed.

Shinon - Level 8 Sniper - A Bows - B Janaff B Rolf

HP: 37

Str: 13

Mag: 7

Skl: 19

Spd: 17

Luck: 11

Def: 12 (+3)

Res: 8 (+3)

Steel Bow: 22 Atk, 17 AS, 124 Hit, 24 Crit, 85 Avo, 11 Cev

Silver Bow: 26 Atk, 17 AS, 129 Hit, 24 Crit, 85 Avo, 11 Cev (I'm not sure if Shinon's holding one by Chapter 24)

Killer Bow: 22 Atk, 17 AS, 129 Hit, 54 Crit, 85 Avo, 11 Cev

First off, I'm just going to mention about how bad Shinon's supports are. Not how bad Rolf and Janaff are if they're played, I'm talking about the bonuses. Shinon gets 0 Atk from ANY of them. Oh sure, he has Avo and Def in them but not gaining attack or crit (wish this was in FE9, I liked gaining crit from supports) on them really hurts Shinon by way of supports. Which hurts your argument on him being an offensive beast, Snowy.

Next point. There are 53 enemies in Chapter 24 (not counting Mr. BK). Shinon doubles about... 32 of them. Not bad but not great, especially because he's not doubling the more powerful ones like the Paladins or Snipers. But ok, he's doubling a bit more than half of them.

However, Shinon's not actually killing. Even with a Silver Bow, Shinon ORKOs 19 of them. Oh yeah, high number... Until you look at WHAT he's killing. 7 Wyvern Riders, 2 Wyvern Lords, 5 Soldiers, 4 Archers and a Sage. Aside from the Wyverns which he's supposed to kill, really fucking manly, Shinon.

Here's the part that you're not going to like. Haar's got the exact same AS as Shinon at base level but Atk through the roof. As in 32 Atk with a Steel Axe vs. Shinon's 26 with a Silver Bow. Haar doubles EVERYTHING that Shinon does and kills a hell of a lot more. I could go through the numbers fully but I'm afraid I'd just be laughing too hard at Shinon's incompetence.

Do I hate Shinon? Oh god, yes! And this is why.

Said to Snowy but applies here. The guy is utter garbage.

Edited March 28, 2010 by Admiral Lifey Crunch

[-Cynthia-]

Shinon is Upper Mid on this list due to earlygame alone, he doesn't require any training so he's easy for noobs to use, so his fairly minor contributions for 3.5 chapters are free. Or something.

Edited March 28, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[Life]

Question: Couldn't we give Tormod an early promo with a Master Seal to make him much better?

We've got two Master Seals at this point (I'm thinking Chapter 18 as my guys generally promote then). I can't think of a single person who would actually use them aside from Mist (I don't use them on Mist for the record). Why not give Tormod an early promo at around level 15 to keep up with the rest of your units?

15/1 Tormod (C Fire, D Wind, D Thunder, E Staff)

HP: 28

Str: 5.6

Mag: 14.6

Skl: 14.2

Spd: 12.6

Luck: 10.8

Def: 8

Res: 14.6

Oh look, a mobile healer not named Mist! Tormod has 8 Move which pretty much keeps up with the horses (I don't expect the Paladins to use their full move on every single turn thanks to enemies blocking them). He also takes no AS loss from Elfire now, allowing him to dish out about 19 damage with 14 AS (even more when Cats and Tigers start showing up in a couple of chapters). Tormod's also 2 levels away from gaining no AS loss on Elthunder which ups his Att to 21. His durability for a Sage is absolutely stellar (Soren and Ilyana don't hit 8 Def until quite a few levels past promotion, Calill starts 5 levels higher with 8 Def and Bastian has 12 at level ?/13) and Celerity is quite useful for him now that he can heal. How is this not better than Sothe who only has thieving to call his own?

[Anouleth]

Question: Couldn't we give Tormod an early promo with a Master Seal to make him much better?

I think I've brought this up before on the other tier list - Tormod can take an early Master Seal and emulate Mist's healing performance from C17 onwards, only Tormod actually has offense.

We've got two Master Seals at this point (I'm thinking Chapter 18 as my guys generally promote then). I can't think of a single person who would actually use them aside from Mist (I don't use them on Mist for the record). Why not give Tormod an early promo at around level 15 to keep up with the rest of your units?

Mist, Rhys, Soren and Ilyana are the only real canditates - we won't be using both Mist and Rhys, and Tormod uses the Seals better than Soren or Ilyana.

15/1 Tormod (C Fire, D Wind, D Thunder, E Staff)

HP: 28

Str: 5.6

Mag: 14.6

Skl: 14.2

Spd: 12.6

Luck: 10.8

Def: 8

Res: 14.6

He has 14.6Spd from his promotion bonus, not 12.6.

Oh look, a mobile healer not named Mist! Tormod has 8 Move which pretty much keeps up with the horses (I don't expect the Paladins to use their full move on every single turn thanks to enemies blocking them). He also takes no AS loss from Elfire now, allowing him to dish out about 19 damage with 14 AS (even more when Cats and Tigers start showing up in a couple of chapters). Tormod's also 2 levels away from gaining no AS loss on Elthunder which ups his Att to 21. His durability for a Sage is absolutely stellar (Soren and Ilyana don't hit 8 Def until quite a few levels past promotion, Calill starts 5 levels higher with 8 Def and Bastian has 12 at level ?/13) and Celerity is quite useful for him now that he can heal. How is this not better than Sothe who only has thieving to call his own?

You're forgetting that Tormod also has supports to boost his offense. All his supports give full attack, and Reyson is almost guaranteed deployment so Tormod can get a B no questions asked.

Also, you know Ilyana? She has 16MAG/15SPD at 20/01, so she's actually comparable to Tormod even though we gave him an early promotion - his supports cancel out her slightly higher magic, and he has a higher growth so he will catch up to her speed in only 4 levels. And Tormod has +2 movement on Ilyana as well. So Ilyana's only advantage over Tormod is not needing a Seal and being around in earlygame (lol), while Tormod has a significant lead for every chapter past C17.

Of course, Tormod is a character that needs a certain amount of resources and planning to be used effectively, and this tier list isn't really okay with that. Hence Mia in bottom tier.

Edited April 17, 2010 by Anouleth

[Snowy_One]

What about endgame performance as well? If we promote Tormod at level 10/0, but don't master-seal Ilyana, than the best Tormod can get at endgame is 10/20. Meanwhile, if Ilyana goes natural, she will have endgame stats of 20/12-20/15-20/20 depending on how you want to consider the endgame and how much she may or may not use staves. Ergo, she will almost certainly have a endgame level advantage. If this point has been discussed before, feel free to dismiss it though.

Edit: Is it just me, or does this tier list seem to have a lot of hate on early-joining units who aren't 100% perfect from the get-go? I can understand Mia being ranked so low considering both smash and Reikken had a had in this, but Nephenee too? And Soren below LARGO?! If we were going by turn count and since resources wasn't listed as any form of limitation or anything, wouldn't it be logical to dump a load of BEXP or something on him to help with the armored units? I mean, they clearly gave Mordi a speedwing so he could beat Lethe for minimum turn count (I don't think it's possible for him to beat her without one due to low speed until the endgame), so why are units like Soren and Nephenee ranked low?

Edited April 18, 2010 by Snowy_One

[Anouleth]

What about endgame performance as well? If we promote Tormod at level 10/0, but don't master-seal Ilyana, than the best Tormod can get at endgame is 10/20. Meanwhile, if Ilyana goes natural, she will have endgame stats of 20/12-20/15-20/20 depending on how you want to consider the endgame and how much she may or may not use staves. Ergo, she will almost certainly have a endgame level advantage. If this point has been discussed before, feel free to dismiss it though.

A 15/15 Tormod and a 20/15 Ilyana are actually pretty comparable:

20/15 Ilyana

37HP 10STR 23MAG 25SKL 19SPD 19LUK 9DEF 26RES

15/15 Tormod

35HP 8STR 21MAG 20SKL 21SPD 16LUK 11.5DEF 21RES

Tormod can have B Reyson A Calill, or A Devdan. The B Reyson in particular is almost guaranteed, and the +2mt/+10hit are enough to cancel out Ilyana's skill and magic leads. If he gets the +3mt from A Calill/Devdan, he can beat Ilyana even if she gets B Mordy B Mia, which also gives her a little bit of defense to catch up to Tormod's defense lead.

But obviously, she can't emulate Tormod's speed lead. She can take a speed band, but he can also take a speed band and only get ~5 fewer levels out of it - or he can take a mage band, which has no competition, to curbstomp Ilyana in atk. So it's clear the even despite Ilyana's level advantage, she's still performing highly comparably to Tormod... perhaps even worse when you take into account that he has Celerity and she doesn't.

[Snowy_One]

Turning that around, why couldn't Ilyana take the dusts to match/curbstomp him in attack as well? Aside from Mia (I would rather not argue how she places, as this is not the point) the only characters who desire the band are sages. Well, both Mist and Rhys would also want it, but being healers, it would mainly be used for range. Of the sages, while I admit that Soren is the only one who lacks an overt claim to the dusts due to his naturally high MAG (as well as Bastion for them being a waste unless you're gonna seriously invest in getting him out of his speed funk; and even then he fails for other reasons). As for Celerity, you're using Tormod as mainly a healing aid it seems (rather, that that is a key argument). So... 1) If they are being used mainly to heal, wouldn't extra move be rendered on the lower side of usefulness due to staves? 2) Couldn't Ilyana also use a MS to promote at 15 to heal before Tormod could (since staves give a flat EXP rate, so long as she doesn't hit 15/20, she should have a level-lead on Tormod)

[Anouleth]

Turning that around, why couldn't Ilyana take the dusts to match/curbstomp him in attack as well?

Tormod can take the Dusts too.

As for Celerity, you're using Tormod as mainly a healing aid it seems (rather, that that is a key argument).

He can also keep up with Paladins, so he can reach more enemies. His offense and durability are similiar to Ilyana's, except he won't lag behind the rest of the team, so it's easier to give him kills.

So... 1) If they are being used mainly to heal, wouldn't extra move be rendered on the lower side of usefulness due to staves? 2) Couldn't Ilyana also use a MS to promote at 15 to heal before Tormod could (since staves give a flat EXP rate, so long as she doesn't hit 15/20, she should have a level-lead on Tormod)

Fine, we promote Tormod at level 10 then, and he still matches her stats even though he's lower-levelled. I guess there's probably going to be a higher level gap between Tormod/Ilyana when he joins, but he will catch up quickly in level. He only needs to be 5 levels lower than her to beat her, and I think it's seriously sandbagging him to suggest that we have to promote him at the single worst time.

I guess a case could be made that we can early promote Ilyana at level 10 in C11, but then when Tormod shows up he'll beat her easily. That would be more of an 'earlygame vs lategame' debate.

(God, I hate debating Tormod, just because people have such opposition to him ever gaining exp before promotion. I mean, the tier list is willing to completely handwave Makalov joining at three levels higher only half a chapter earlier with worse base stats, when Makalov has no 1-2 range, targets defense and never heals, just because OMG he's a PALADIN!, to the point where Makalov is two tiers higher than Tormod. How about we use the same standards for Makalov and say that he'll only be seriously used if we seal him at level 10?)

[Snowy_One]

Tormod can take the Dusts too.

If either of them takes the dusts, they will have no problem with MAG at all as it will be high enough to handwave.

He can also keep up with Paladins, so he can reach more enemies. His offense and durability are similiar to Ilyana's, except he won't lag behind the rest of the team, so it's easier to give him kills.

If the main point of promoting him early is to allow him access to staves, this shouldn't matter. Even so, I doubt that the person is going to have the paladins move to their maximum movement every turn just to do so especially since that isn't always the smartest cho-wait this is a smashtier. You may have a point.

Fine, we promote Tormod at level 10 then, and he still matches her stats even though he's lower-levelled. I guess there's probably going to be a higher level gap between Tormod/Ilyana when he joins, but he will catch up quickly in level. He only needs to be 5 levels lower than her to beat her, and I think it's seriously sandbagging him to suggest that we have to promote him at the single worst time.

I'm not saying he has to be promoted at the worst time. However, if the argument for promoting him five levels earlier than a natural promotion is staves, than shouldn't the same argument also mean that the best time to promote him is ASAP so he can get them? Movement isn't affected by level after all; so... why not at level 10?

I guess a case could be made that we can early promote Ilyana at level 10 in C11, but then when Tormod shows up he'll beat her easily. That would be more of an 'earlygame vs lategame' debate.

If the primary argument is healing, than he won't due to Ilyana having a level lead and a high enough staff level to use physics.

[quote(God, I hate debating Tormod, just because people have such opposition to him ever gaining exp before promotion. I mean, the tier list is willing to completely handwave Makalov joining at three levels higher only half a chapter earlier with worse base stats, when Makalov has no 1-2 range, targets defense and never heals, just because OMG he's a PALADIN!, to the point where Makalov is two tiers higher than Tormod. How about we use the same standards for Makalov and say that he'll only be seriously used if we seal him at level 10?)

Hey. You won't find that standard with me! I hate both equally. >.>

[Life]

I'm not saying he has to be promoted at the worst time. However, if the argument for promoting him five levels earlier than a natural promotion is staves, than shouldn't the same argument also mean that the best time to promote him is ASAP so he can get them? Movement isn't affected by level after all; so... why not at level 10?

If the primary argument is healing, than he won't due to Ilyana having a level lead and a high enough staff level to use physics.

Difference between 10/1 Tormod and 15/1 Tormod (which is what, the difference between whether he promotes before or after the Atonement and some BExp):

~3 HP

~1 Str (difference between losing AS on Elfire and not losing AS on Elfire)

~3 Mag (2 if you always round down but it's 4 extra damage on doubles)

~2 Skl

~3 Spd (See Mag plus it's 3+ AS)

~2 Lck

~1 Def

~3 Res (See Mag)

Since Tormod can easily get 3 levels this chapter (starting at 10/0) thanks to keeping up with the Cavs plus him being underleveled, I bet we can give him some BExp before and after the chapter to make him hit 15/0. Pretty big difference between 10/1 and 15/1 if you look at the raw stats.

[Anouleth]

If either of them takes the dusts, they will have no problem with MAG at all as it will be high enough to handwave.

Pretty much. The only major points would be movement, speed and durability, all of which Tormod win.

If the main point of promoting him early is to allow him access to staves, this shouldn't matter. Even so, I doubt that the person is going to have the paladins move to their maximum movement every turn just to do so especially since that isn't always the smartest cho-wait this is a smashtier. You may have a point.

Healing with good combat is better than just healing. My original statement was that Tormod could emulate Mist, only he has offense as well.

I'm not saying he has to be promoted at the worst time. However, if the argument for promoting him five levels earlier than a natural promotion is staves, than shouldn't the same argument also mean that the best time to promote him is ASAP so he can get them? Movement isn't affected by level after all; so... why not at level 10?

The argument isn't just Staves. Tormod gets a lot of stuff from promotion - more strength, more speed, more magic, more movement, more weapon ranks. Enough that it's more worthwhile than sealing most people. And given that he's underlevelled and has good growths, an extra five levels before promotion are not all that expensive and pretty helpful.

If the primary argument is healing, than he won't due to Ilyana having a level lead and a high enough staff level to use physics.

Why are you so obsessed with Ilyana's level lead? I've alrady shown that Ilyana and Tormod are comparable even if Tormod is five levels lower. All the level lead is going to do is slow Ilyana's growth, since staff exp is so slow.

In addition, Tormod doesn't need Physics, his movement is enough to keep up with mostly everyone, and he will eventually get Physics anyway.

[BEST TRYNDAMERE PLAYER]

In addition, Tormod doesn't need Physics, his movement is enough to keep up with mostly everyone, and he will eventually get Physics anyway.

I really wouldn't argue about Physic staves for this game considering you can get like 10+ physics in this game, and not only that but they have fifteen uses.

[Narga_Rocks]

I really wouldn't argue about Physic staves for this game considering you can get like 10+ physics in this game, and not only that but they have fifteen uses.

Well, once you get past chapter 16. There is one in the desert and one in a chest in 16. Once you have two of them it's fine. Volke can start getting bundles by the time you break the first two. Tormod could have had a little advantage before chapter 16 if it weren't for how he doesn't actually show up until chapter 16. In chapter 16 you could probably just deploy Rhys and Mist and have them trade the physic between them whenever the situation is particularly dire.

aka: I basically agree with you. Extremely small advantage that he doesn't need them. Which is, sadly, overridden by the disadvantage of not being able to use them until many heal/mends after promotion.

[Anouleth]

I don't think Physics are that useful. Chapter that Physic is useful in, C16 onwards:

-17-3 due to Swamp

-21 due to it being ginormous

-22, maybe (enemy density is low enough that it's not 100% necessary)

-25 if you only have one healer

-27, but Elincia can use Physics herself so Ilyana being able to use them is worthless

That's it. Most other maps are small or linear enough that a 8 move healer can reach anyone. And in most cases, we can deploy a healer we're not seriously using and have them backup heal - it's not significantly more painful than having to deploy Volke to steal Physics.

I really wouldn't argue about Physic staves for this game considering you can get like 10+ physics in this game, and not only that but they have fifteen uses.

I never steal Physics, I never find myself really needing more than the single one I get.

Also, getting Physic staves requires us to deploy Volke and get him to the Bishop/Priest. What Physic staves are we likely to get?

-17-2 is unlikely, we can Arrive quite quickly so there's no reason to wait around.

-Two in Chapter 20, I guess we can steal one.

-Two in Chapter 21, but they both carry Sleep too, and eliminating them takes priority.

-One in Chapter 22, but Sothe and Volke want to head into the left and right rooms to open the treasure chests, so unlikely.

-Two Sages in C23, but the general crowdedness of Chapter 23 make me reluctant to deploy Volke if we haven't trained him.

-Two Bishops in C26, they carry Sleep as well, again, killing them is more useful than their Physics.

-A Bolting Sage in C27, two Bishops, one with Sleep, one with Silence. I guess we might get this one, but again, they're high priorities to kill. And Volke may be opening chests.

Of these, only the C17 and C20 ones are likely to be more worthwhile than the cost of getting Volke to them. Together with the C16 one (C15 is iffy when the chapter is easy to beat quickly), that's three, or 45 uses over the course of the entire game until they're buyable in Endgame.

[Narga_Rocks]

I never steal Physics, I never find myself really needing more than the single one I get.

This probably has more to do with you not spamming them. I love them since I don't have to care much about the position of my healer and I'll typically use them after a unit runs up and attacks something. A unit has more life if they get healed after their turn on player phase because if you heal them before then they could get hit when they attack something.

-17-2 is unlikely, we can Arrive quite quickly so there's no reason to wait around.

I guess I have to agree. When Marcia/Jill can get there on turn 3 with little effort, anyway.

-Two in Chapter 20, I guess we can steal one.

Or two.

-Two in Chapter 21, but they both carry Sleep too, and eliminating them takes priority.

No, stealing the sleep takes priority. Then there is nothing hindering me from stealing physic. The first one wasn't actually all that hard for me to take. Reyson is awesome. I can't figure out a good way to take the second, but he usually burns through it before I get to him anyway. And if I could get to him earlier, I'd take the sleep, duh.

-One in Chapter 22, but Sothe and Volke want to head into the left and right rooms to open the treasure chests, so unlikely.

I forget, do we get enough chest keys in this game? I don't see a real issue stealing the physic, especially considering I'm also trying to steal the weapon of the boss that doesn't drop.

-Two Sages in C23, but the general crowdedness of Chapter 23 make me reluctant to deploy Volke if we haven't trained him.

I don't see why not.

-Two Bishops in C26, they carry Sleep as well, again, killing them is more useful than their Physics.

Chapter 26? Wide open. steal the sleep first. Then steal physic. Maybe not both, though I probably did.

-A Bolting Sage in C27, two Bishops, one with Sleep, one with Silence. I guess we might get this one, but again, they're high priorities to kill. And Volke may be opening chests.

They are also high priorities to grab other things of theirs. I forget their precise locations, though, so it may not be super easy like some of the others.

Of these, only the C17 and C20 ones are likely to be more worthwhile than the cost of getting Volke to them. Together with the C16 one (C15 is iffy when the chapter is easy to beat quickly), that's three, or 45 uses over the course of the entire game until they're buyable in Endgame.

I don't think I lost turns getting any. Also, in C15 you can put a thief on the physic staff on turn 1 if you wanted. Quickness of chapter is no excuse for not getting the physic. Don't tell me you value shine over the physic. There are three things you can easily get on turn 1, and a 4th (the silver blade) that requires shoving.

Besides, it takes a while to get stefan anyway, so if you are...

Physics are amazing. And having 6 or 7 physics to burn through is awesome.

Also, if physics aren't your cup-o-tea, then I'd have to say that promoted Mist > Tormod for healing anyway. 8 move vs 8 move + canto. Because there are times you won't need all 8 move, the ability to better position your healer after the move is awesome. The typical argument against the awesomeness of Mist's horse is in fact the plentiful existence of physics staves.

[Anouleth]

This probably has more to do with you not spamming them. I love them since I don't have to care much about the position of my healer and I'll typically use them after a unit runs up and attacks something. A unit has more life if they get healed after their turn on player phase because if you heal them before then they could get hit when they attack something.

Perhaps, but I always got along fine without them. I personally think they're a rather lazy way to play, but at least it's better than those ridiculous infinite range staves or (1-Magic) range staves.

Or two.

This is an Arrive chapter and probably over very quickly. There's no reason to sit around so Volke can steal stuff.

No, stealing the sleep takes priority. Then there is nothing hindering me from stealing physic. The first one wasn't actually all that hard for me to take. Reyson is awesome. I can't figure out a good way to take the second, but he usually burns through it before I get to him anyway. And if I could get to him earlier, I'd take the sleep, duh.

Why do we need to steal the sleep? Volke is a 7 move unit. C21 is massive, so unless we glue Reyson to him (massive waste of our best unit), he will be far behind all our Paladins and fliers. Why should we spend turns waiting for Volke to reach Ena's room? I guess he can steal the Sleep the Bishop in the centre holds, but again, I'd rather kill him, since my paladins will reach him a turn earlier.

I forget, do we get enough chest keys in this game? I don't see a real issue stealing the physic, especially considering I'm also trying to steal the weapon of the boss that doesn't drop.

I forgot about Chest Keys in C22. This is the last time they drop, though, and the game is pretty stingy with them.

I don't see why not.

Killer Ballistae, Haar, Siege tome Sages, Onagers... essentially if we expose untrained Volke too much, he dies. In addition, there's the whole problem of him lagging behind the 9 move people.

Chapter 26? Wide open. steal the sleep first. Then steal physic. Maybe not both, though I probably did.

Massive map, again. The Physic staff Bishops are right next to Bertram. If Volke can reach there, Ike can too. If Ike is there, the chapter is over.

I don't think I lost turns getting any. Also, in C15 you can put a thief on the physic staff on turn 1 if you wanted. Quickness of chapter is no excuse for not getting the physic. Don't tell me you value shine over the physic. There are three things you can easily get on turn 1, and a 4th (the silver blade) that requires shoving.

I find it hard to believe that you didn't lose any turns stealing both sleep staves and the physic staves in C21. Volke has the same movement as Ike, so if Volke in Ena's room stealing stuff, so is Ike. If Ike is in the throne room, why isn't he Seizing? Same goes for most chapters, since

If I use Volke to get the Physic on turn 1, he can't get the Boots on turn 2, so we need to spend an extra turn getting that. Sothe can't get it, he's too frail. Volke is bad enough as it is, but at least enemies prioritise unequipped base level Jill over him. I don't know if they'd be so stupid with Sothe.

Besides, it takes a while to get stefan anyway, so if you are...

Why are we recruiting Stefan? Either we can ferry Volke to get the VK and White Gem, or we risk losing the White Gem with Lethe, or lose turns ferrying both. Stefan is only bringing an Occult (not really very helpful) and isn't particularly special on his own. I'd rather have the Gem.

Physics are amazing. And having 6 or 7 physics to burn through is awesome.

Shame there's no easy way to get hold of them.

Also, if physics aren't your cup-o-tea, then I'd have to say that promoted Mist > Tormod for healing anyway. 8 move vs 8 move + canto. Because there are times you won't need all 8 move, the ability to better position your healer after the move is awesome. The typical argument against the awesomeness of Mist's horse is in fact the plentiful existence of physics staves.

Tormod has far, far better offense than Mist, which I think is more valuable than Mist's canto.

[Narga_Rocks]

This is an Arrive chapter and probably over very quickly. There's no reason to sit around so Volke can steal stuff.

sit around? The guy is closer than the boss. Unless you are using fliers to get Ike over there it's fine. And if you are using fliers then you have to be a bit cautious to avoid things dieing anyway.

Why do we need to steal the sleep? Volke is a 7 move unit. C21 is massive, so unless we glue Reyson to him (massive waste of our best unit), he will be far behind all our Paladins and fliers. Why should we spend turns waiting for Volke to reach Ena's room? I guess he can steal the Sleep the Bishop in the centre holds, but again, I'd rather kill him, since my paladins will reach him a turn earlier.

(reordering to make flow better)

I find it hard to believe that you didn't lose any turns stealing both sleep staves and the physic staves in C21. Volke has the same movement as Ike, so if Volke in Ena's room stealing stuff, so is Ike. If Ike is in the throne room, why isn't he Seizing? Same goes for most chapters, since

I'm going to quote something from my post for you:

I can't figure out a good way to take the second, but he usually burns through it before I get to him anyway. And if I could get to him earlier, I'd take the sleep, duh.

I've given up on the second one. Why assume I'm taking them both. I've tried to figure it out but have always decided that it's not easy enough. The first is the fun one. It requires Reyson, of course, along with some rescuing to get Volke there quickly, but that doesn't actually slow you down. It helps that you don't have to ever worry about him sleeping one of your units, in fact. As for the second (physic, this time), if Ike is in the throne room, Volke can be, too. And if you can seize, you can also have Volke grab something the same turn.

I forgot about Chest Keys in C22. This is the last time they drop, though, and the game is pretty stingy with them.

And?

Killer Ballistae, Haar, Siege tome Sages, Onagers... essentially if we expose untrained Volke too much, he dies. In addition, there's the whole problem of him lagging behind the 9 move people.

Why is he lagging behind? Rescue and Reyson. There is no gluing him to Reyson. He only actually needs Reyson for when you are 15 tiles away from something you want to steal. Then you have Marcia or someone fly over and drop him and reposition herself to be vigored along with Reyson. Then send two other 9 move units so that Reyson vigors 4. Now have Volke run up, steal the thing, and use the 3 9 move units to clear the area and keep Volke alive. That is in no way worse than using Reyson with 9 move units to kill the annoying staff units because it accomplishes the disabling of the guy and gets you a sleep staff, too. And next turn you can even get a bonus physic.

Massive map, again. The Physic staff Bishops are right next to Bertram. If Volke can reach there, Ike can too. If Ike is there, the chapter is over.

Really? I remembered another sage of some sort earlier, but maybe he wasn't holding physic. But I don't get this whole "if Volke can then Ike can end it". If they arrive at the same time then Volke can go first. If you care about turns that's fine. But if you care that Ike seizes while being the 3rd unit to move on some turn rather than the last unit to move then that's just pointless.

If I use Volke to get the Physic on turn 1, he can't get the Boots on turn 2, so we need to spend an extra turn getting that. Sothe can't get it, he's too frail. Volke is bad enough as it is, but at least enemies prioritise unequipped base level Jill over him. I don't know if they'd be so stupid with Sothe.

Why are we recruiting Stefan? Either we can ferry Volke to get the VK and White Gem, or we risk losing the White Gem with Lethe, or lose turns ferrying both. Stefan is only bringing an Occult (not really very helpful) and isn't particularly special on his own. I'd rather have the Gem.

How quickly are you finishing anyway? 2 turns? That's the only way your statement works. And you aren't getting that white gem in 2 turns either. I just don't think it's impossible to get that physic. The only way it's guaranteed to cost you turns is if you have Volke and sothe each find one item per turn and they never don't find something. Then adding an extra item obviously takes an extra turn. But at that point I'd argue (to me) that a physic is better than some of the other items and if you care about the turns so much, I'd say:

boots > physic > guard > silver blade > White Gem > statue frag > shine > coins. I'm ignoring stefan and his vague katti for the moment.

You probably make a different list, though. Oh, I'd be willing to switch guard and silver blade. silver blade only has 15 uses, though, but in comparison guard is skill% and only useful on player phase if not combined with vantage, but if you are doing it on player phase then you may as well just have a healer with physic in readiness in case your unit gets countered.

Shame there's no easy way to get hold of them.

Reyson [/topic].

Tormod has far, far better offense than Mist, which I think is more valuable than Mist's canto.

And that's a point for why Tormod is a better healer how, exactly? That's a point for why he has better things to do than healing stuff. Mist + Rhys heal, offensive units use offence. And yet so many people seem to disagree with this idea. I don't get it.

[Anouleth]

You're probably right. I rarely bother to steal Physics, so maybe I'm making too much of a big deal about it.

And that's a point for why Tormod is a better healer how, exactly? That's a point for why he has better things to do than healing stuff. Mist + Rhys heal, offensive units use offence. And yet so many people seem to disagree with this idea. I don't get it.

Yet I find that in many cases, my healer is sitting around doing nothing or only healing single-digit damage that I could have left alone, in which case I may as well not even have a healer and bring an offensive unit instead.

[Narga_Rocks]

Yet I find that in many cases, my healer is sitting around doing nothing or only healing single-digit damage that I could have left alone, in which case I may as well not even have a healer and bring an offensive unit instead.

Eh. I never really cared. You get enough deployment slots even in rout chapters to create sufficient enemy phase that adding one more combat unit changes little or nothing. And you could always give Mist a scroll and some combat if you want to get her to wield sonic sword for moments of healing downtime. Or just keep her near her supporters and rest in the knowledge that she's still making other units better than they would be if Tormod was there instead of her.

[Kinata]

Ike doesn't disappear. If you have 10 unit slots, Ike will take one of them. Their argument for Ike auto-topping was, as near as I could tell, that if you used Ike, you got Ike + 9 slots. If you use Oscar, Ike isn't being played (under their rules) but he still takes up his slot (at base level, I'd assume). Meaning, Oscar's team has Oscar + 8 useful units. Ike's team effectively has an extra unit.

My argument is that because the list's rules state that “which unit’s absence would hurt turn count more?” is being considered, if Ike was truly "absent" then he wouldn't be taking up that extra slot and Oscar's team now has Oscar + 9. This obviously can't actually be done, as you can't actually remove Ike.

The only counter that I can see is seize arguments, which are generally ruled out because of storyline. Now, since I'm removing Ike completely, maybe the seize argument could be valid, but then Ike becomes an infinite number of tiers above any other unit because Ike's "absence" on any other units' team means you can't even get past the first seize chapter.

Not that I want to add to a discussion from a while ago, but I actually think being forced is harmful. Not only is Ike's slot forced rather free, as Narga pointed out, but it prevents him from being removed from chapters where he is not wanted. While it is often assumed that character being discussed is used in every chapter, in a situation like Gatrie in ch. 25, it is best to just assume that that character is being benched.

Unfortunately, if Ike doesn't want to be used in a battle, which is usually the case midgame when he is at max level, and you would rather replace him with someone trainable, you're out of luck. The point is, it's a benefit for a character to be replaceable.

[soundecho]

Not that I want to add to a discussion from a while ago, but I actually think being forced is harmful. Not only is Ike's slot forced rather free, as Narga pointed out, but it prevents him from being removed from chapters where he is not wanted. While it is often assumed that character being discussed is used in every chapter, in a situation like Gatrie in ch. 25, it is best to just assume that that character is being benched.

Unfortunately, if Ike doesn't want to be used in a battle, which is usually the case midgame when he is at max level, and you would rather replace him with someone trainable, you're out of luck. The point is, it's a benefit for a character to be replaceable.

It's not like your forced to use him . . . Just have him sit in a corner and do nothing

[riariadne]

That doesn't help either, but I really don't see why having to bring him to a chapter hurts him Maybe you'd like to replace him with another unit, but suppose it's a seize mission...

Being forced should never be a negative unless it will almost definitely get the person killed.

Edited April 28, 2010 by Lightning

[Snowy_One]

Just out of curiosity, this tier list assumes that there is room for 'player error'. Does this include making favoritism choices/dumping a load of Bexp on a character/giving them a 'unfair' amount of forges as well? Cause I can certainly see a player ignoring the super-power Titania if they're genre-savvy enough to expect her to be a jeigan and instead dump a load of Bexp/weapons on Rolf, who seems like **** but may have good growth-rates. Doubly so since Rolf is the only bow-user in the early game once Shinon leaves and I would most certainly assume that they would expect him to grow up to kick ass like their previous sniper (no denying Shinon is very useful in the early game, even if he doesn't 100% 1HKO) or even if not, level him up to have access to his weapon-type just in case the need for a bow arises?

[Narga_Rocks]

Just out of curiosity, this tier list assumes that there is room for 'player error'. Does this include making favoritism choices/dumping a load of Bexp on a character/giving them a 'unfair' amount of forges as well? Cause I can certainly see a player ignoring the super-power Titania if they're genre-savvy enough to expect her to be a jeigan and instead dump a load of Bexp/weapons on Rolf, who seems like **** but may have good growth-rates. Doubly so since Rolf is the only bow-user in the early game once Shinon leaves and I would most certainly assume that they would expect him to grow up to kick ass like their previous sniper (no denying Shinon is very useful in the early game, even if he doesn't 100% 1HKO) or even if not, level him up to have access to his weapon-type just in case the need for a bow arises?

I think the list takes a more communist approach given the primary contributors to the list. No idea what TC believes, but he's not exactly the originator. As far as smash/paperblade are concerned, equal distribution of bexp is the only logical way to argue characters despite any claims of being "efficient" made by the list. I have no idea how much they thought about how an imperfect player may distribute bexp or what kind of choices they might make with respect to bexp distribution as a result of incorrect or incomplete understanding. And similarly with cexp distribution. One imperfect player may look at Titania and see how amazing she is and use her to the max and clear 2/3 of each map with her and then have issues continuing. Another may look at how little exp she gets and decide to never let her do anything (not even weaken) because they like seeing big exp gains rather than small exp gains.

Now, the list assumes a few playthroughs before placing units so you won't get misunderstandings like assuming Mia and Zihark are the only units capable of consistent doubling, but the player may remember that those ravens are really annoying and that Mia/Zihark are likely the units that can most easily (cheaply) double the biggest nuisance of the mid-game and thus be more willing to pump one of them full of bexp in order to double those things and get rid of them quicker. There are tons of little intricacies that we accept as the way a perfect player will perform, but surely an average player will touch on some of those (though not all) and be able to pull a few things off. However, what exactly will that player pull off? What will it see? A person that loves statistics may notice that whoever uses the KW consistently has higher spd than they do in other playthroughs. Maybe this player will then decide to do some tests to confirm that the KW probably boosts spd.