S Rank Tier List for FE7

[Life]

You can field both Marcus and Isadora if you want to. <_<

To say Isadora sucks because Marcus exists means you have to also make sure everyone agrees that we can't have two Paladins. Which no one will agree to. Isadora needs to beat any other possible fielded unit, not any of that promoted unit bull.

Having 2 Paladins on the field is good. However, having 2 Paladins on the field instead of 1 Paladin and 1 non promoted unit that is sitting around level 12 is much more of a strain on Exp. Unless I need that extra firepower that only Isadora can bring with a Silver Sword because Sain, Kent and Lowen all can't do whatever job, I'm usually going to bring Sain/Kent/Lowen over Isadora since they can do the same job (most of the time) and reap a better reward for the team.

If Exp considerations are enough to let Isadora be considered better than Marcus, then I don't see what the issue is--that still says nothing about her contributions toward an S Rank (which this tier list has as its goal), nor does it say anything about Isadora's performance relative to Jaffar. Or, if your claim is actually that the Exp considerations don't matter here, I would like to point out that the two units being promoted does not invalidate the 4-level gap between the two. Invalidating that gap would be similar to dismissing a unit's combat leads over another because "the difference isn't that big since both are bad at combat anyway." In some cases, this is true, but for that to be applicable here, Isadora and Marcus would literally have to have Exp gains low enough (or negative enough) that they wouldn't be seeing *any* combat, which clearly isn't the case.

That 4 level difference means almost nothing in terms of Exp gain in Isadora's joining chapter. Observe. I'll toss in a level 12 Sain just to show why it means almost nothing.

Vs. Level 7 Wyvern Riders   Exp for damaging:   Exp for killing:
Marcus                              4                   8
Isadora                             5                  15
Sain                                8                  31

Vs. Level 8 Mages           Exp for damaging:   Exp for killing:
Marcus                              4                   8
Isadora                             6                  19
Sain                                9                  35

It looks like Isadora's gains are huge when compared to Marcus, right? But we have a map where we need 1700 Exp to S Rank that map (which of course becomes our target Exp). Aside from Hector, Lyn and Eliwood, there are 9 deployment spots + Isadora, Rath and Heath. We're looking at 15 people in that map.

To hit the target by evenly sharing out the Exp, you need to get about Exp per character 113.3 or 114 (round up to ensure hitting the target Exp) if you want to be technical about it. Marcus will take 15 kills to hit it, Isadora will take 7 kills on average and Sain will top it in 4 on average.

Now in my EHM S Rank run, I waited until Turn 11, killed every reinforcement and I still lost out on Exp (1660/1700). It's not HHM but it gives me a good understanding of what happens in HHM. We can see that Marcus has no chance of getting those 15 kills for enough Exp. But we can also see that Isadora will need almost double as many kills as Sain to hit that target Exp. If we were to give Sain the same number of kills, he'd gain another extra 100 extra plus change. So it doesn't make much sense to use Isadora in order to get kills for Exp because the gap between her and the next best person performance-wise(Sain in this case) is huge.

If we start limiting Isadora to only chip stuff (AKA give her an Iron Sword at the beginning of the chapter), she's holding 18 Atk in her hands. To escape a ORKO, an enemy needs about 27 HP and 5 Def, figures that the more durable enemies like Wyverns, Fighters, Cavaliers and Archers have in Isadora's joining chapter. And once we've reduced Isadora down to weakening enemies for others, it's a job that Marcus also does and both gain incredibly similar amounts of Exp.

By the way, why didn't anyone correct me about my calculations being wrong for Exp in my first post?

*glances over dude's isadora/jaffar post*

ctrl-f movement

ctrl-f weapon triangle

ctrl-f ferrying

ctrl-f range

???

Isadora has 8 Move vs. Jaffar's 7. She's winning in that but not by much since Jaffar can basically keep up.

I did neglect to mention the WTC that Isa has but since Jaffar's offense concentrates so much on crits and activating Silencer, I felt that Isa's WTC was a rather weak point considering that Jaffar pretty much bypasses it with a critical hit, especially when Silencer activates.

I also neglected range and that's possibly Isa's saving grace. I can see her toting Short Spears (only 900G for an 18 use weapon is a nice deal) which gives her 24 Atk but it also lowers her AS down by 6 down to 13. Javelins are possibly worse for her (-3 Atk for +1 AS over the SS) and Hand-axes are a cheaper SS that does 2 less damage per hit. Jaffar's only real answer to that is the Light Brand or Runesword and I highly doubt that he gets his hands on either. Maybe the Light Brand because Guy and Karel are his only real competition for that weapon that I can properly think of (mono swords would like it but since it targets Res at 2 range instead of Def, technically everyone wants it).

As for ferrying, I hate putting a quantitative value on rescuing. To me, it's like arguing a thief's value because he sees extra squares in FoW. Yes it's useful but to what purpose? Will it save me turns? It might save me a turn here or there but I'm only talking about 1 specific unit who does ferrying, not every unit involved in the rescue chain. If Jaffar and Isadora were dead even but Isadora could rescue more people, I'd say Isadora's better. But that's not the case since they're not dead even.

Edited May 7, 2010 by King Russell

[Colonel M]

Just for an fyi: Jaffar has 6 Mov. Not to mention a few other things:

I also neglected range and that's possibly Isa's saving grace. I can see her toting Short Spears (only 900G for an 18 use weapon is a nice deal) which gives her 24 Atk but it also lowers her AS down by 6 down to 13. Javelins are possibly worse for her (-3 Atk for +1 AS over the SS) and Hand-axes are a cheaper SS that does 2 less damage per hit. Jaffar's only real answer to that is the Light Brand or Runesword and I highly doubt that he gets his hands on either. Maybe the Light Brand because Guy and Karel are his only real competition for that weapon that I can properly think of (mono swords would like it but since it targets Res at 2 range instead of Def, technically everyone wants it).

Isadora being able to use 2 range increases her survivability and practically why she's deployed. Isadora actually has a great reason to be fielded in Cog of Destiny due to helping us with the rout. The only advantage Jaffar has is attempting to Silencer Valkyries up close.

As for ferrying, I hate putting a quantitative value on rescuing. To me, it's like arguing a thief's value because he sees extra squares in FoW. Yes it's useful but to what purpose? Will it save me turns? It might save me a turn here or there but I'm only talking about 1 specific unit who does ferrying, not every unit involved in the rescue chain. If Jaffar and Isadora were dead even but Isadora could rescue more people, I'd say Isadora's better. But that's not the case since they're not dead even.

Rescuing is an excellent strategy for tactics. Her being part of the Rescue chain can credit for saving more than "just a turn".

Edited May 7, 2010 by Colonel M

[Life]

Just for an fyi: Jaffar has 6 Mov. Not to mention a few other things:

Isadora being able to use 2 range increases her survivability and practically why she's deployed. Isadora actually has a great reason to be fielded in Cog of Destiny due to helping us with the rout. The only advantage Jaffar has is attempting to Silencer Valkyries up close.

Rescuing is an excellent strategy for tactics. Her being part of the Rescue chain can credit for saving more than "just a turn".

My bad for both of them. Those are then good positives for Isadora.

But how does she counter Jaffar's combat and Exp wins? With utility and movement? Is that all she has that's better than him?

[CATS]

But how does she counter Jaffar's combat and Exp wins? With utility and movement? Is that all she has that's better than him?

There's also availability. If Marcus is still useful during Isadora's chapters, then Isadora herself also is, in the same way that Raven and Harken are both useful during the lategame, and Hector/Oswin are both useful during the earlygame. I have a hard time believing that Isadora doesn't do anything useful for you at all during the 8 chapters she has before Jaffar joins, especially if your reasoning for why she isn't useful is "because Marcus is better."

[Life]

Time to revive this thing.

If my S Rank runs have taught me anything, it's that Pent deserves to be in High Tier, maybe even above Erk. He's absolutely usable the second you get him and his stats are unbelievable. He also has immediate access to Physic and other goodies like Silence, Sleep and Rescue (Warp is 2500G a pop so it's probably going to Merlinus) when Erk/Lucius/Canas all need a promotion and then need a shitload of staff training. And while Prissy and Serra do exist, Pent actually tops them until they promote since he can actually defend himself really well.

I know his availability isn't fantastic but consider what you're getting in return for waiting a bit. So yeah, Pent for High Tier. Any takers?

Edited June 15, 2010 by Life

[Dat Nick]

pents actually not in high tier? uh yeah do something about that

[CATS]

Sounds reasonable to me, for whatever that's worth. No one else can combine his combat abilities + staff rank, except maybe Priscilla/Serra, but they're in top tier, so that doesn't exactly hurt the case for Pent in high.

[Life]

Making the move, in that case.

EDIT: I'm also going to open up a personal can of worms and advocate Florina > Eliwood. While Eli has a bit of an availability boost, Florina's your first flier which is huge. She will singlehandedly give you a single turn completion of Chapter 17x as her first big contribution while Eliwood can't ever give you a significant boost while he's around that nobody else can. He does have the Rapier but his promotion is worth 20k and his bases stats are horrible, even with pretty incredible growths like his. Florina has LHM to power herself up and has a very good chance at getting the LHM Angelic Robe or Energy Ring, boosting her immediate performance in HHM by a mile.

There's a lot of other stuff that I can list but I'd rather hear from someone who want to defend Eliwood's position.

Edited June 26, 2010 by Life

[Seven Deadly Sins]

I've always advocated Florina up for pretty much forever, and I also have her at top use for both the Robe and the Ring in the allocation topic (and the ch15 dracoshield / first body ring but maybe thats a bridge too far ?_?).

Florina is providing a ton of great flight utility even without combat, but the likelihood that she's getting the boosters that she needs to participate in combat at a level equivalent to Kent but without the issue of terrain just gives her the bump that she needs to shine. If she gets the ring (or the robe or both), she's pretty much outstripping Eliwood combat-wise all day long, she's got an essentially free promotion item, and she also happens to shave turns all over the place, especially on her join chapter where she airlifts Marcus and Hector over the ridge, preventing them from having to wander through the forest and fight their way through.

[Narga_Rocks]

I've always advocated Florina up for pretty much forever, and I also have her at top use for both the Robe and the Ring in the allocation topic (and the ch15 dracoshield / first body ring but maybe thats a bridge too far ?_?).

Florina is providing a ton of great flight utility even without combat, but the likelihood that she's getting the boosters that she needs to participate in combat at a level equivalent to Kent but without the issue of terrain just gives her the bump that she needs to shine. If she gets the ring (or the robe or both), she's pretty much outstripping Eliwood combat-wise all day long, she's got an essentially free promotion item, and she also happens to shave turns all over the place, especially on her join chapter where she airlifts Marcus and Hector over the ridge, preventing them from having to wander through the forest and fight their way through.

The only thing I don't like about the fliers is that flight + rescue utility is often too useful and they struggle to level (eg: I love Thany but couldn't get her beyond level 14 by chapter 14). Is that not a problem here for Florina?

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Florina should come in fairly levelled from Lyn Mode. We're not looking at Thany where she shows up in Ch. 1 at level 1 and she's ferrying for the majority of the chapters immediately afterwards. Much of the time, Florina will be able to actually drop someone and then immediately fight alongside that someone or fly off and pick some guys off, etc. She also shows up at ~7 (I think that's about the level I see her coming out of Lyn Mode at), and with claim to either one or both of the boosters, is putting up combat similar to Kent in all cases. She picks up Pirate Ship by transporting people near the boss and still being able to either flank the main force or fight alongside whoever she dropped, and she's also capable of staving off pegs before they can get at your squishy back lines. On 19 she can handle incoming pegs or Pirates since she's not ferrying due to nomads in fog. 19x has her potentially grabbing the top peg squad as well as being able to take potshots at the level 17 Snipers that show up with Kishuna for free EXP. There's plenty of ways for her to get EXP that don't hamper her ability to ferry, especially since at that point you can use Fiora for all your ferrying needs.

[Geriba]

I'm on a bit of an FE7 binge, so I decided to check back in here... these tier list discussions have really heated up again, haven't they? Glad to see healthy discussion's still going on. I still need to read through the full thirty pages, but a couple of questions in the meantime:

1) How does this list value empty slots, and what is the basis of this decision? God knows I don't want to re-open the Gross/Net can of worms, but I didn't see it outlined anywhere.

2) What is Inui's 32x experience trick? I saw it mentioned before, and it sounded pretty cool. Anyone mind clarifying?

3) John Dory, who are you on GameFAQs? Best user name ever, by the way.

I have a couple qualms with this list that I'll get into later, but nothing major. Mainly just Guy being a tad too low for my tastes.

And hey, I'll jump into this Merlinus argument too! Placing Merlinus has nothing to do with how he affects the ranks. I'm seeing people talk about how he negatively impacts the experience rank by drawing away enemies, or hurting the combat rank, etc. etc., only none of that really matters. Merlnius is so absolutely, unequivocally essential to maintaining an S-Rank that any minor downsides fielding him might have are instantly and utterly trumped by his contributions. He's either technically a unit and goes to the top-of-top, or he remains unranked- there's no middle ground that I can conceive of. What does matter, then, is the definition one uses to qualify a unit. The term's already stretched pretty thin, and branches out to include both combat units and utility units. So what does Merlinus have in common with other PCs? He has a unique unit slot, but so do Hector, Athos, and the occasional forced character, all of which are units. He both actively and passively affects the team: he actively manages items and moves around post-promotion, and passively takes hits and steers enemies away from your other units. The one notable thing missing from Merlinus in comparison to other units is the presence of an active command. "Fight," "Dance," "Steal," and the like are all absent, and he can't even "Wait" until after twenty chapters. John Dory's claim that he "doesn't do anything" is patently false if you're talking about how he impacts the team, but makes a lot more sense if you're talking about active commands. I really don't know where to stand on this one, and if a consensus has already been reached, apologies. I think it's mainly semantics, though, and as Merlinus is a completely unique case, it won't affect other placements in the slightest, so does it really matter?

EDIT: So I'm 15 pages in, and this topic has delved headfirst into semantics. Are we really debating whether or not Nino deserves credit for her Talk command with Jaffar? There's a clear distinction between unit commands and plot commands. Fight, Wait, Steal, and the like are unit commands; Talk is a plot command. Support is also a unit command, as it directly contributes to the performance of the unit and nothing else. Does Nino get credit for her Talk command with Jaffar? Yes, but in a limited fashion. Because Nino needs to reach the other side of Battle before Dawn, she'll likely run into other enemy units along the way (assuming she's not being shuttled over there via rescue), which means there's a greater chance of her getting a few more kills. That is what she gets credit for. The same principle is best illustrated in Whereabouts Unknown: because you need Priscilla to recruit Raven, and because bringing two healers is usually superfluous, Priscilla is almost always going to get an extra chapter of heal time over Serra. But does she get credit for Raven's performance? Of course not!

Edited July 7, 2010 by Jaffar7

[Life]

3) John Dory, who are you on GameFAQs? Best user name ever, by the way.

Hi, I'm Lifeadmiral. Remember me Jaffar? Yeah, we missed your ass (me and Mori).

Inui thinks that you can promote either one of your thieves with the Fell Contract (since Funds is apparently piss easy according to him) and then just let that guy loose with a Killing Edge in 32x. However, my problems with that is that it seems too contrived. The Funds Rank isn't as easy as Inui claims it is since you still need to use some promoted units (the ones that are better than prepromotes) to rack up that ~41700 Exp over the course of the game. One Assassin will amount to about to either 2800 or ~3300 Exp max (Legault and Matthew respectively since Jaffar will probably get most of his Exp in NoF and Battle Preparations and only need 6 levels to hit ?/20 anyways) but there's still a shitload of Exp left to get in the game, along with the fact that said Assassin isn't even guaranteed to hit 20/20.

Edited July 8, 2010 by John Dory

[Geriba]

Hi, I'm Lifeadmiral. Remember me Jaffar? Yeah, we missed your ass (me and Mori).

Inui thinks that you can promote either one of your thieves with the Fell Contract (since Funds is apparently piss easy according to him) and then just let that guy loose with a Killing Edge in 32x. However, my problems with that is that it seems too contrived. The Funds Rank isn't as easy as Inui claims it is since you still need to use some promoted units (the ones that are better than prepromotes) to rack up that ~41700 Exp over the course of the game. One Assassin will amount to about to either 2800 or ~3300 Exp max (Legault and Matthew respectively since Jaffar will probably get most of his Exp in NoF and Battle Preparations and only need 6 levels to hit ?/20 anyways) but there's still a shitload of Exp left to get in the game, along with the fact that said Assassin isn't even guaranteed to hit 20/20.

Hey Lifeadmiral! Of course I remember you. Whatever happened to Mori, anyway? She and I played some pretty serious devil's advocate a while back in a previous topic. And that trick sounds like it could be useful every now and again, but like you said, it diminishes the importance of the Funds Rank. The nice thing about the trick is that 32x is late enough in the game so that you can make a save file on Chapter 32, try the trick, and if it costs too much, start back from your old save.

[CATS]

I really don't know where to stand on this one, and if a consensus has already been reached, apologies. I think it's mainly semantics, though, and as Merlinus is a completely unique case, it won't affect other placements in the slightest, so does it really matter?

The unofficial consensus seems to be to just leave him unranked. But yeah, you're absolutely right in implying that it doesn't matter in the slightest bit.

So I'm 15 pages in, and this topic has delved headfirst into semantics. Are we really debating whether or not Nino deserves credit for her Talk command with Jaffar? There's a clear distinction between unit commands and plot commands. Fight, Wait, Steal, and the like are unit commands; Talk is a plot command. Support is also a unit command, as it directly contributes to the performance of the unit and nothing else. Does Nino get credit for her Talk command with Jaffar? Yes, but in a limited fashion. Because Nino needs to reach the other side of Battle before Dawn, she'll likely run into other enemy units along the way (assuming she's not being shuttled over there via rescue), which means there's a greater chance of her getting a few more kills. That is what she gets credit for. The same principle is best illustrated in Whereabouts Unknown: because you need Priscilla to recruit Raven, and because bringing two healers is usually superfluous, Priscilla is almost always going to get an extra chapter of heal time over Serra. But does she get credit for Raven's performance? Of course not!

That depends entirely on the definitions of "unit" and "plot" commands, both of which are variable. Since we're the only people who care enough about FE to even think about stuff like this, we're totally making these terms up. There's no objective FE-tier-list dictionary out there which we can consult to settle the matter, so I don't think the distinction is as clear as you're implying (which is why a discussion broke out over this in the first place; if it really were that clear, there wouldn't have been anything to say about it). This isn't to say I'm opposing your viewpoint here; I have no intention of re-opening that can of worms. I'm just saying that I think it's understandable and necessary to debate things like this in tier lists.

[Life]

Here's my next bunch of proposed changes, if anyone cares to look at them (Jaffar, I hope you also check them out).

1. Marcus up to Top Tier to sit right below Ninian/Nils.

2. Harken and Lucius swap places.

3. Dorcas to fall to below Canas in Upper Mid Tier (am prepared to argue this person by person until he goes down).

4. Bartre and Jaffar swap places (I have an argument for this on the first post and yet nobody responded to it).

5. Karel up to Lower Mid Tier to sit right below Jaffar.

6. Dart and Vaida swap places.

I kinda want to inject new life into the tier list but these are also some of the things that I've realized from my S Rank runs. Granted, it'll take me a while to get to HHM (gotta get a new computer and then beat ENM along with HNM, not to mention a rerun on EHM) but I'll get to them soon.

[Life]

Bumping for the sake of... well, no clue. If nobody responds soon, I'll make the changes even though I don't want to before there's discussion.

[Life]

It's been a week and there's been no discussion. Thanks guys...

[Junkhead]

On second thought, nevermind. I forgot this was a ranked run. I blow at these.

Um, yeah. Sorry Life.

Maybe you should wait a bit more, others could be out on vacation...?

Edited July 17, 2010 by The leaving song II

[CATS]

All that steam and effort to oppose unconventional viewpoints such as ranking Merlinus or putting Nino above Low, and yet no one's interested in doing some more traditional discussion instead? I'm disappointed.

Dorcas to fall to below Canas in Upper Mid Tier (am prepared to argue this person by person until he goes down).

Bartre and Jaffar swap places (I have an argument for this on the first post and yet nobody responded to it).

What's your reasoning on these two? I'm not necessarily opposed to them, just curious. I agree with your first two changes, don't care enough about to last two to even ask about the reasoning behind them.

[Life]

What's your reasoning on these two? I'm not necessarily opposed to them, just curious. I agree with your first two changes, don't care enough about to last two to even ask about the reasoning behind them.

It's based on a point that was brought up to me on GameFAQs that I was never able to refute properly simply because the numbers were against me.

Dorcas comes out of LHM at about Level 7. Bartre starts at level 2 on the same chapter. However, if we're distributing EXP properly for the run, Bartre's going to start catching up to Dorcas by the end of 13x and Dorcas will no longer be able to do stuff that Bartre can't, even with Bartre's starting AS of 2. I need to pull up the argument on GameFAQs though but the basis of it was moving Bartre and Dorcas closer to each other.

Dorcas vs. Legault: Combat vs. Utility. Dorcas is good in the earlygame. However, he's the 3rd or 4th best overall combat unit to start with (Marcus, Hector and Oswin depending on how important that 1 Move is) and has defensive problems that the other 3 don't have. Legault is one of two Thieves in the game and is arguably the better one from when he exists to the end of the game. It's hard to judge how important thieving is but the fact that Dorcas can never be the best person at what he does while Legault has that opportunity means that Legault is better in my books. Up for discussion, though.

Dorcas vs. Fiora: Flight is that important. It really is that big.

Dorcas vs. Canas: Here's where it gets tricky. Canas really has one problem and that's his AS. I keep advocating one of the two Body Rings to go to him since it gives him 2 AS (Luna only weighs him down by 1 AS now) and nobody else really uses it as well (you have Isadora who also loves it and maybe Erk but I don't see Erk needing it since his AS should be good enough anyway). Promotion gives him 4 extra AS (3 Spd and 1 Con making Flux cost nothing at this point) while promotion can't dig Dorcas out of his own Spd and Def problems. To me, this is a pretty good example of risk-return. If we give Canas a very uncontested item, we're instantly rewarded with 2 AS. If we give him a pretty coveted item (3rd or 4th Guiding Ring assuming we even want to use them), he gains another 4 AS and immediately saves himself from Spd problems before mention his staff usage (it's not great to start at E staves but it's better than nothing). He's already got a monopoly on Luna which makes him quite awesome vs. some of the later bosses even without a promotion. And Nosferatu can keep him alive when you can't afford to heal him via a staff, along with getting EXP for Combat.

Bartre vs. Jaffar: In all of my runs, Jaffar saw combat in 28x (wasn't much, he wasted a couple of archers and snipers on the treasure platform), 31x and Final. The only one where he's actually doing stuff that makes me appreciate that he was there was Light since he COULD insta-kill a boss. Aside from that, it's really not much. I'd rather use Bartre as a lategame Exp unit when you're hurting for every drop of Exp (EHM broke me badly).

[Janissary]

I have a change that I think should be made after playing through the early game of my draft playthough:

Raven drops 2, healers up one each.

Reasoning: Raven comes underleveled (yes, he does) and enters in a phase of the game where he won't even be properly trained until 3 or 4 chapters into his existance. In chapter 17, he is worthless because he has to recruit Lucius. 17x he gets raped by the middle enemies, so he goes north (if he is even fielded since we want to 4 turn this, since the item villages aren't that great anyway) and gets maybe one level, if he is lucky. Chapter 18 his loldefense gets raped by the Mercs he can't double, and requires his own personal healer in order to survive repeated abuse (i.e. more than one hit). Those Shamans are even wrose for him to fight since they will 2hko him. It isn't until chapter 18 he might get legitamately used, and then you probably feed him some mages in 18x, to the detriment of the tactics rank.

[Life]

Reasoning: Raven comes underleveled (yes, he does) and enters in a phase of the game where he won't even be properly trained until 3 or 4 chapters into his existance. In chapter 17, he is worthless because he has to recruit Lucius. 17x he gets raped by the middle enemies, so he goes north (if he is even fielded since we want to 4 turn this, since the item villages aren't that great anyway) and gets maybe one level, if he is lucky. Chapter 18 his loldefense gets raped by the Mercs he can't double, and requires his own personal healer in order to survive repeated abuse (i.e. more than one hit). Those Shamans are even wrose for him to fight since they will 2hko him. It isn't until chapter 18 he might get legitamately used, and then you probably feed him some mages in 18x, to the detriment of the tactics rank.

EHM 16x with base Raven (no HHM stat boosts)

I would disagree with your statement of "gets raped by the middle enemies" since I've held off the northern HOUSE route with just Raven. Sure it was on EHM but Raven didn't have his bonuses so it evens out. He also got 2.5 levels, going from 5.27 to 7.80 in that single chapter. He can stand to be fielded in 18 since it's probably better for Oswin/Hector+Eliwood/Lowen to hold the right side to minimize damage done by the mercenaries so Raven and Guy are really interchangeable in that chapter as long as Raven can survive 2 hits from Zoldam. 19 gets even better for Raven since he can do massive damage to Uhai with the Longsword since Uhai's the first boss that you fight that even gives Marcus problems. Everything he does after that is gravy since he's easily caught up 5+ level in 3 chapters if you only field him for 2 of them.

[Janissary]

Looking at Chapter 17x specifically, Florina is being fielded to grab a village while still 4 turning the chapter. That 1/5 open slots. The next concern is dealing with Damien - seems like Marcus is probably getting a slot, or, if you have a blessed Lyn, her the Mani Katti. We now have 3 slots left. A healer should get one, leaving us with 2 slots. Chances are you field the best cavalier you have. You are now talking about giving Raven preference for the last slot purely because he can grow to be awesome. There is no reason not to field either another Cavalier or HHMbonused Guy, either or whom is most likely better by a fair margin than Raven.

And, he does get raped by the middle enemies - the Killer Axe, the Nosferatu, the Elfire, and the Killer Bow (I think that is the Archer's setup). I'm pretty sure one of the weaker pirates also has a swordreaver. Raven has no business doing anything but going directly north to attack the 2 or 3 pirates up there that no one usually cares about.

[Life]

Looking at Chapter 17x specifically, Florina is being fielded to grab a village while still 4 turning the chapter. That 1/5 open slots. The next concern is dealing with Damien - seems like Marcus is probably getting a slot, or, if you have a blessed Lyn, her the Mani Katti. We now have 3 slots left. A healer should get one, leaving us with 2 slots. Chances are you field the best cavalier you have. You are now talking about giving Raven preference for the last slot purely because he can grow to be awesome. There is no reason not to field either another Cavalier or HHMbonused Guy, either or whom is most likely better by a fair margin than Raven.

This reasoning is wrong. We're not doing an efficiency run, it's ranked. And on HHM, we only need to beat 10 turns and 700 Exp. Florina is really the only person that we need with high movement since she's the one who grabs all the houses and talks to Fargus. Marcus isn't needed here and I definitely wouldn't give him the nod over Oswin who can actually withstand a Damien critical hit. Eliwood is probably better than Lyn since he's got good Def and HP figures, much better than Lyn at this point. Guy can easily get fielded but there's nothing that he can do that base Raven can't with a Steel Sword/Killing Edge. In fact, Raven is arguably better here since he can get more Exp for the Exp rank and yet still ORKO with the 36 Crit he has with the KE at base level. Sure that's not as awesome as level 12 Guy's 38 Crit (there's sarcasm there) but Guy has ~11 Str if he's lucky while Raven starts at 10 Str. Is there something on the field that dies to a double attack at 20 Atk but lives after a double at 19?

My point here is that Guy can't do something that base level Raven can't do with the same weapons in Port of Badon. The Killing Edge isn't exclusively Guy's since Raven, Marcus and Sain/Kent (if one of them can't ORKO an enemy that they need to) all want it in the early portions of the game before you can buy more.

Edited August 4, 2010 by Life Admiral