S Rank Tier List for FE7

[Life]

Dorcas comes at Ch.12, meaning he's got a 16-chapter availability lead over Geitz. That's huge. All the while, because of his excellent base stats (which put him miles above Bartre), he's dealing heavy damage and reliably one-shotting a good deal of enemies, especially with specialized weapons like the halberd. Once Geitz comes along, he'll replace Dorcas, no question; that doesn't change the immense contribution Dorcas makes to the early game.

Excellent base stats? Really? Call your dealer for me. I'll pay double his usual price since the shit that he hooked you up with must be STRONG.

I've seen a proper comparison between Dorcas and Bartre. If we feed both decent amount of Exp, Bartre starts matching most of Dorcas' stats at around Chapter 14 if not earlier. Note that they're still forced (well, not really but there's no reason to not field either here). Lemme look at them quickly.

Bartre - Level 7 Fighter
Iron Axe: 19 Atk, 89 Hit, 5 AS, 3 Crit
Hand Axe: 18 Atk, 74 Hit, 5 AS, 3 Crit
33 HP, 15 Avo, 5 Def, 1 Res

Dorcas - Level 9 Fighter
Iron Axe: 18 Atk, 93 Hit, 7 AS, 4 Crit
Hand Axe: 17 Atk, 78 Hit, 7 AS, 4 Crit
34 HP, 19 Avo, 4 Def, 0 Res

These stats are virtually identical. The only thing that sticks out is Dorcas' 7 AS (mind you, it's got a 20% growth rate on it) but if you look at the enemy list, Dorcas actually isn't doubling anything that Bartre isn't.

Archer: 4~5 AS

Cavalier: 6~8 AS

Knight: 1 AS

Mercenary: 4~5 AS

Myrmidon: 10 AS

Nomad: 8~9 AS

Peg Knight: 4~5 AS

Pirate: 7~8 AS

Soldier: 0~1 AS

Erik: 7 AS

The only advantage Dorcas has here is if the lone Nomad (there's only 1 on the map) nails 9 AS instead of 8. Other than that, he's got no advantages over Bartre. Sure the Myrmidon doubles and 2RKOs Bartre but Dorcas probably should be going near him either. Both double the Soldiers and Knights and then Bartre performs better everywhere else due to doing 1 more damage. If you want to argue Halberd and Hammer, Bartre does just as well. That 4 Displayed Hit difference between Dorcas and Bartre is near negligible.

It's true that Dorcas starts out HHM better than Bartre. But it only stays true if you train Dorcas and neglect Bartre. At similar levels, Bartre is actually the better unit. Surprise surprise. Dorcas' contributions to HHM's first few chapters isn't as great as they seem and there's no way that it matches Geitz's stuff. If anything, Dorcas should start taking a nosedive down the list (Tang probably hates me for that comment).

Edited February 8, 2011 by Survivor

[Florete]

Hey Lifey.

I don't think his extra maps are a negative or anything, but beating only the likes of Rebecca and Bartre just isn't good. Rapier effective bonus is really only good for finishing off kills, which isn't so special when you think about it because anyone not named Rebecca can give us the same.

What the? Even if Mani Katti breaks before promotion, Lyn still doubles, and by that point Killing Edges are probably buyable, meaning she doubles with good crit while Eliwood still has trouble doubling at all. I don't find Eliwood's promotion too special, either, considering his performance up until then. He might be better, but even then I think you'd have to look at it case-by-case.

Lyn > Eliwood doesn't really matter for now, but get him the fuck out of High tier. Just look at who he's above:

Florina

Pent

-Upper Mid-

Harken

Lucius

Geitz

Legault

Fiora

Canas

Dorcas

Hawkeye

What the hell. Eliwood is not so much better that he deserves even a one tier gap, and he sure as hell isn't better than most of these people (Dorcas and maybe Canas are the only ones I could see him standing a change against).

It's a start. In other news...

What happened to Raven and Oswin dropping and Heath possibly going up? Any more thoughts on those?

[Life]

Forgot about all that. I'll quickly address each case:

Eliwood vs. Lyn: I've actually been saying for years (this is now literal) that the girl has to go up. Eliwood can afford to drop simply because his start is just that mediocre. He needs a good 10 or so levels to start going and it's not enough to beat someone like Harken's instant use, even if Harken only appears for the last 3rd of the game. You guys should put forth arguments of where you think each person belongs and I'll refute the points that I disagree with.

Raven: I stated earlier that Raven's offense is so good that the player actually feels it when he doesn't exist. He can drop below the healers but the real question is whether he's better than Ninils simply because of their weird availability.

Oswin: I kinda think that Oswin's mobility problems are being too magnified. This isn't efficiency where 4 Move is bad. Oswin is great out of the gate and he does really well considering that Tactics isn't the ludicrous ranking here (it has an artificial difficulty thanks to Experience). If someone wants to outline an argument for why he should drop and to where, I'd be happy to play Devil's Advocate here. Once again, move or lack of is not as big a problem as it is in an Efficiency run.

Heath: I'm not touching Heath. I personally hate him and since my personal bias easily plays a part here, I'd rather stay out of it. You guys come up with a spot for him (as long as it's not too high) and I'll endorse it just to get Heath out of my system.

[Tangerine]

Oswin: I kinda think that Oswin's mobility problems are being too magnified. This isn't efficiency where 4 Move is bad. Oswin is great out of the gate and he does really well considering that Tactics isn't the ludicrous ranking here (it has an artificial difficulty thanks to Experience). If someone wants to outline an argument for why he should drop and to where, I'd be happy to play Devil's Advocate here. Once again, move or lack of is not as big a problem as it is in an Efficiency run.

I don't agree with this really. The more turns you save early in the game, the more you are able to contribute to the EXP rank later; that's why Marcus remains so high on the list. In my experience with S ranking I've realized I play it a lot like an efficiency run early on, if not a little bit slower for the lowbie units. Saying that "Tactics is not a ludicrous ranking" because the EXP rank is what makes it hard does not change the fact that you still need to play a certain way because of it. They make eachother hard; EXP is hard because you are restricted by turn count, and Tactics is hard because you have to make sure you meet the EXP requirement.

The grounds for an S rank list are "If you make S ranking easier than someone else does, you are above them". Oswin shines in the early-game defense chapters, there is no denying that, but he is slow and not as much help in other ones. Especially large maps or ones with lots of terrain. Anything where moving quickly will help you, he is not so good in. There are some exceptions though, notably the chapters involving Cav/Nomad reinforcements near Merlinus.

I don't think he should drop far, but would I consider him better than the Cavs? Probably not.

[Florete]

Eliwood vs. Lyn: I've actually been saying for years (this is now literal) that the girl has to go up. Eliwood can afford to drop simply because his start is just that mediocre. He needs a good 10 or so levels to start going and it's not enough to beat someone like Harken's instant use, even if Harken only appears for the last 3rd of the game. You guys should put forth arguments of where you think each person belongs and I'll refute the points that I disagree with.

I think it's quite similar to the Efficiency list, to be honest. Lyn was determined better there because she starts actually decent while Eliwood is just bad/mediocre for too long. I'd even contest his promotion being better, but I'd need to go into a lot of detail that I don't feel like doing right now for that.

If you agree with her going up, I think they can both meet somewhere in Upper Mid for now. Where I don't know, but at least get them in the same tier, and get Eliwood the hell out of High.

Raven: I stated earlier that Raven's offense is so good that the player actually feels it when he doesn't exist. He can drop below the healers but the real question is whether he's better than Ninils simply because of their weird availability.

It's a tough argument to make. Interceptor knows what I mean. I'd personally say Ninils is better, but I wouldn't mind seeing him above them simply because of how the comparison is.

Oswin: I kinda think that Oswin's mobility problems are being too magnified. This isn't efficiency where 4 Move is bad. Oswin is great out of the gate and he does really well considering that Tactics isn't the ludicrous ranking here (it has an artificial difficulty thanks to Experience). If someone wants to outline an argument for why he should drop and to where, I'd be happy to play Devil's Advocate here. Once again, move or lack of is not as big a problem as it is in an Efficiency run.

Wrong. 4 move - on top of extra terrain problems - is always bad, and it only gets worse as the game progresses and your higher move units are no longer facing such death threats. Tangerine pretty much nailed it.

There are two reasons I didn't use him extensively in my HHM S rank: he didn't gain any Spd in 9 levels, but even before that, he could not keep up and was falling behind in level despite his high base level. Normally Rescue-dropping would be the simple solution, but then you get maps with 6-8 deployment slots where you can't afford to have two of those spots out of commission for a turn (or you just need to kill every enemy possible) and then Oswin promotes with everyone and the number of mounted units who can Rescue him at all goes down to Priscilla, Heath, Florina, and Rath.

Heath: I'm not touching Heath. I personally hate him and since my personal bias easily plays a part here, I'd rather stay out of it. You guys come up with a spot for him (as long as it's not too high) and I'll endorse it just to get Heath out of my system.

I think, as a start, he needs the spot either right above or below Fiora. She has Res while he has Def, pretty much. He also will have better offense.

And what did you think of my idea to rename everything from Lower Mid down?

[Geriba]

If you agree with her going up, I think they can both meet somewhere in Upper Mid for now. Where I don't know, but at least get them in the same tier, and get Eliwood the hell out of High.

How about we do things the normal way, i.e. make marginal changes instead of radical ones? If you're so sure Lyn and Eliwood deserve to be closer together, it should be easy enough to, say, debate Harken over Eliwood.

I'm completely down with doing a Dorcas debate with Life Admiral and an Eliwood debate with Red, so long as you two are. Haven't had a good debate in a while.

[dondon151]

Debates don't mean much in the larger context of things. I'd contend that 70% of what is brought up in debates is pure bullshit or suboptimal.

[Florete]

How about we do things the normal way, i.e. make marginal changes instead of radical ones? If you're so sure Lyn and Eliwood deserve to be closer together, it should be easy enough to, say, debate Harken over Eliwood.

I'm completely down with doing a Dorcas debate with Life Admiral and an Eliwood debate with Red, so long as you two are. Haven't had a good debate in a while.

Sure. At the very least, would you agree with putting them at the top and bottom of Upper Mid? I don't think that's "radical," is it?

[Colonel M]

Debates don't mean much in the larger context of things. I'd contend that 70% of what is brought up in debates is pure bullshit or suboptimal.

70% of my entire life has suddenly lost meaning reading this sentence. I feel... sad.

But yeah, Heath definitely is under-appreciated in this tier list. Above Fiora is a good start.

[Florete]

Oh, I also never got a response to this:

Also, I find this order a bit strange:

Farina

-Bottom-

Karla

Wallace

Renault

Even if Farina is the best of the four, she shouldn't be a tier above them. That 40k deficit is quite a huge hit to Funds, and it's not like you need the flier utility when you already have 3 perfectly capable fliers available. Personally, I'd order it more like this (after the renaming):

-Low-

Renault

Farina

Karla

Wallace

Renault is the only one with no strings attached and he can be useful as a last minute healer at the top left of Victory or Death. I'd put him a tier higher if the likes of Pent, Serra, and Priscilla didn't exist, but as it is...yeah. The rest should be fairly obvious since, aside from Renault, the order hasn't changed. It's basically dropping Farina a tier and putting Renault above her.

[Geriba]

Oh, I also never got a response to this:

I'd still be inclined to put Farina above Renault. She's still a bottom-five unit because of the hit to Funds, but the loss isn't too sorely missed. At a minimum, she's a boon for the Experience rank, as her solid bases and low level make her a perfect candidate to hit 20 and possibly be promoted. It's not enough to get her out of Bottom Tier (which is where she belongs), but I'd argue she should be above Renault's possible-chapter-and-a-half staff utility.

Go ahead and pick which unit you'd like Eliwood to go up against, Red!

Edited February 9, 2011 by Jaffar7

[Life]

I'm completely down with doing a Dorcas debate with Life Admiral and an Eliwood debate with Red, so long as you two are. Haven't had a good debate in a while.

It's not so much an active debate, Jaffar. Just bring your evidence and I'll show why Dorcas isn't as good as everyone perceives him.

But yeah, Heath definitely is under-appreciated in this tier list. Above Fiora is a good start.

I just did a spittake. I didn't even thing those are possible.

wut... wut... wut...

wat is this i dont even... Above Fiora? Are you mad? Heath, the piece of shit that can't do anything in either his joining chapter and the following one, even with those HHM boosts?

Edited February 9, 2011 by Survivor

[Swordsalmon]

Is Farina's hit to Funds even that huge? I mean, it is a big detriment, but it's not like most characters seriously need to be using Silvers to one-round enemies. She still sucks, but a little help to Experience and potentially supporting Florina/Fiora seems more useful than Renault's staff utility. He's not very special at that point when you already have Serra, Priscilla, Pent, and Lucius able to heal just about everything. ;)

Heath's use is to rescue and drop characters. I can't imagine why he should raise for esentially that, considering that deployment slots are so small that devoting a slot just for rescue is a waste.

[Anouleth]

Heath's use is to rescue and drop characters. I can't imagine why he should raise for esentially that, considering that deployment slots are so small that devoting a slot just for rescue is a waste.

Heath joins in the middle of the game with flight, good base stats and at level 7. He is thus very good for EXP rank. Who can boast 13 strength and 9 speed and 32HP/11DEF and flight at level 7? Nobody, that's who. Fiora would need to be promoted just to match Heath's base strength and durability.

[Florete]

@Jaffar: I don't know who to pick yet. Ideally I'd go Lyn vs. Eliwood, but as per request it would be better to go with someone closer on the list, probably Harken, Lucius, or Geitz.

wat is this i dont even... Above Fiora? Are you mad? Heath, the piece of shit that can't do anything in either his joining chapter and the following one, even with those HHM boosts?

Heath can do stuff in his joining chapter just fine. As a start, I always have him kill that Thief since when I recruit him he's in the perfect position and he can OHKO it. He's also fairly solid against enemies like Fighters and other Wyverns. As for Living Legend, he's not perfect, but give him Pure Water and he's definitely not useless.

Is Farina's hit to Funds even that huge? I mean, it is a big detriment, but it's not like most characters seriously need to be using Silvers to one-round enemies. She still sucks, but a little help to Experience and potentially supporting Florina/Fiora seems more useful than Renault's staff utility. He's not very special at that point when you already have Serra, Priscilla, Pent, and Lucius able to heal just about everything. ;)

Again, supports are a no. At best you might get a C by like, Victory or Death. It just isn't worth arguing for.

Heath's use is to rescue and drop characters. I can't imagine why he should raise for esentially that, considering that deployment slots are so small that devoting a slot just for rescue is a waste.

Suddenly Heath is unable to fight?

Edited February 9, 2011 by Red Fox of Fire

[Mr. Francis York Morgan]

How about we do things the normal way, i.e. make marginal changes instead of radical ones? If you're so sure Lyn and Eliwood deserve to be closer together, it should be easy enough to, say, debate Harken over Eliwood.

I'm completely down with doing a Dorcas debate with Life Admiral and an Eliwood debate with Red, so long as you two are. Haven't had a good debate in a while.

Replace Harken with Rebecca and focus on how Eliwood's early game is utter poo poo and that Rebecca sees more combat than he does since she at least fails at 2 range. Downplay Eliwood's rapier utility on chapter 15/16 because of his lack of durability/power/move when facing the enemy cav spam. You'd much rather use Hector, Marcus, and Oswin for that anyway. Follow it up with how his low level affects his mid and late game negatively. Watch Eliwood drop like a rock while sipping martini's on the beach. Life is good.

Edit: If you wanna be a real rear end in a top hat bring up how Rebecca has a 20% higher speed growth at 60% and only loses to Eliwood by 1 point in base speed. Also bring up how similar they are in terms of bases/growths.

Edited February 9, 2011 by Mr. Francis York Morgan

[Tangerine]

70% of my entire life has suddenly lost meaning reading this sentence. I feel... sad.

But yeah, Heath definitely is under-appreciated in this tier list. Above Fiora is a good start.

Dondon, how can you be so cruel to the Colonel :(?

I can see Heath > Fiora

[Anouleth]

Debates don't mean much in the larger context of things. I'd contend that 70% of what is brought up in debates is pure bullshit or suboptimal.

While that's sometimes true, I'm sure a debate with reasonable, experienced players like Jaffar and Lifey and RFoF wouldn't be completely irrelevant. Although I don't really think debates in general should affect tier listing because it's more about winning than it is about honestly trying to determine which is the genuinely superior character.

[Geriba]

While that's sometimes true, I'm sure a debate with reasonable, experienced players like Jaffar and Lifey and RFoF wouldn't be completely irrelevant. Although I don't really think debates in general should affect tier listing because it's more about winning than it is about honestly trying to determine which is the genuinely superior character.

This is true, but there's no better way to do it. If someone wishes to move a character up and down, they need to make a case for that character, and others respond. It ultimately comes down to which side can make their case better, no doubt about it (although unlike a straight-up debate, multiple people can get involved in either side at any time).

[Anouleth]

This is true, but there's no better way to do it. If someone wishes to move a character up and down, they need to make a case for that character, and others respond. It ultimately comes down to which side can make their case better, no doubt about it (although unlike a straight-up debate, multiple people can get involved in either side at any time).

Just... discuss in this thread. In a debate, it's perfectly acceptable to lie or distort the truth or sandbag or engage in favouritism if you can get away with it. In an environment like that, the objective is to win rather than actually represent the true quality of the characters involved.

[Florete]

Just... discuss in this thread. In a debate, it's perfectly acceptable to lie or distort the truth or sandbag or engage in favouritism if you can get away with it. In an environment like that, the objective is to win rather than actually represent the true quality of the characters involved.

To be honest, most of the time I feel like it isn't any different here. People still "distort the truth" on occasion - sometimes without realizing it - in an attempt to prove their point. I think if two people went into a formal debate with the goal of determining which character is better, they could do it fairly accurately given they are at a high enough level of competence.

On another note, there's something else I forgot in the Lyn and Eliwood stuff that might actually hurt my ultimate goal of Lyn > Eliwood, and that's Linus's FFO. Since you definitely want to get there on a ranked run, I believe it would be fairly accurate to say that any performance the Lords have until reaching the necessary level (~15-17 on average) is essentially "free," at least when compared to other characters. Comparing to each other there is still the matter of which one is easier to use and helps the most, but they are at least not negative and no one should be able to say they won't be used at all.

And just for fun, I have a level 20/0 Eliwood with 9 Spd. That's -5.6 to average. He also has 11 Str, 2.55 behind average. Then he has 11 Skl, 3.5 behind average. Also 13 Lck, back to 2.55 behind average. Eliwood hates me!

[dondon151]

I think if two people went into a formal debate with the goal of determining which character is better, they could do it fairly accurately given they are at a high enough level of competence.

I could not disagree more. People debate to win, not to compromise on some sort of truth.

[Florete]

I could not disagree more. People debate to win, not to compromise on some sort of truth.

And that's why I ask: What if they debated to compromise on some sort of truth, instead of simply to win? Or is that no longer a "debate," by whatever definition we have of it?

And can you honestly say that people in tier lists never argue to win? People are surely more willing to give up, but you'd be blind if you thought there was no competitive spirit in these topics.

[Anouleth]

And can you honestly say that people in tier lists never argue to win? People are surely more willing to give up, but you'd be blind if you thought there was no competitive spirit in these topics.

There is, but it's to a lower degree than in a debate, and in a tier list if someone says something obviously wrong, then we have a dozen people who can step in and throw it out, while in a debate that isn't possible.

And that's why I ask: What if they debated to compromise on some sort of truth, instead of simply to win? Or is that no longer a "debate," by whatever definition we have of it?

I don't think that is a debate. If that's what you want then you might as well just have it here. Put forward a well-written argument on Canas > Eliwood, and we'll see if anyone can come up with an adequate rebuttal.

[dondon151]

And that's why I ask: What if they debated to compromise on some sort of truth, instead of simply to win? Or is that no longer a "debate," by whatever definition we have of it?

That's just not going to happen. People are competitive because they don't like having their ideas rejected, and they like to reject the ideas of others.

And let's just think about this for a minute. Person A and person B are debating Eliwood and Lyn, respectively. A firmly believes Eliwood > Lyn and B firmly believes the opposite. Neither A nor B are going to yield anything substantial to the other. Even if we stated that the objective was to "compromise on some sort of truth," that does not discourage A or B from bending the truth.

And can you honestly say that people in tier lists never argue to win? People are surely more willing to give up, but you'd be blind if you thought there was no competitive spirit in these topics.

Of course participants in a tier list argue to win, I never denied that. The difference between a tier list discussion and a mano a mano debate is that there are a lot more people around to call out questionable statements. 2 opposing debaters probably can't cover all of the same insights that 10 different people have.