S Rank Tier List for FE7

[Life]

It's been plenty long enough (over a week since the initial post). Any change you plan to make, make it now.

If you don't see it now, I don't think you will unless you just accept it for a while. That's not to say it's wrong at all, though. Personally, I think the notion of Serra > Priscilla is an outdated train of thought that's still lingering despite all the evidence that points the other way because people have always believed it. I don't mean that offensively, it's just how I'm seeing it.

Change made.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Why is Raven > the healers when he's only considered tentatively better than them for tactics and quite worse for exp and survival?

[Swordsalmon]

I've been out of the debating for a long time, so I'm not entirely up-to-date. But, why is Heath so high on the list? I can't imagine how he provides any actual benefit, being basically unusable for the first couple chapters he's around and being horrendouly underleveled. And just about no support options to his name. :/

[Florete]

I've been out of the debating for a long time, so I'm not entirely up-to-date. But, why is Heath so high on the list? I can't imagine how he provides any actual benefit, being basically unusable for the first couple chapters he's around and being horrendouly underleveled. And just about no support options to his name. :/

If you ask me, Heath is too low. He has the best flying Aid on the team (tied with Florina) on top of being much more physically durable than the pegs, and he actually has fairly good bases for his level, which is quite valuable in ranked when you need to get experience. He's quite worth some investment to become a good unit. And no one except Hector, Eliwood, Lyn, and Florina have any reasonable supports to their name. Maybe Kent and Sain also. But supports most definitely is not a negative for Heath.

Edited February 1, 2011 by Red Fox of Fire

[-Cynthia-]

Flying saves us Tactics turns, and being underleveled means Heath's good for getting Exp.

I wonder why Athos is so high. Yes, he's good for Final, but I'm doubt he saves more turns than someone like Isadora in the long run, and people like Lyn and Bartre help out the Exp rank. He can only help out ranks so much when he exists for only one map (and he's not good for Exp rank obviously).

[Swordsalmon]

I can understand the flying utility, sort of. Florina and Fiora already do flier utility better than Heath, and the Cavaliers can also drop off characters and what-not.

And Heath is underleveled, but he's not benefitting the EXP rank when most enemies are destroying him. ;) Heath gets murdered by like, everything until Chapter 24, and most the enemies there are levels 10-12 (I think, it's been a while). It doesn't look like Heath is benefitting EXP too much. :/ I can't imagine him being better than Isadora and Lyn, at least.

Of course, the last time I looked at a tier list, he was right at Bottom Tier. XD

Edited February 1, 2011 by Swordsalmon

[dondon151]

And Heath is underleveled, but he's not benefitting the EXP rank when most enemies are destroying him. ;) Heath gets murdered by like, everything until Chapter 24, and most the enemies there are levels 10-12 (I think, it's been a while).

Nothing is "murdering" Heath. He has superior physically defensive parameters to the PKs until they are around 20/1, and on the magical side, he has 9 res after a Pure Water.

[Florete]

I can understand the flying utility, sort of. Florina and Fiora already do flier utility better than Heath, and the Cavaliers can also drop off characters and what-not.

Wait, how are Florina and Fiora better? Florina has the same Aid. Fiora has one less. Mobility is equal. There is no advantage for them. Cavaliers can do it, but Heath flies, meaning he does it better.

And Heath is underleveled, but he's not benefitting the EXP rank when most enemies are destroying him. ;) Heath gets murdered by like, everything until Chapter 24, and most the enemies there are levels 10-12 (I think, it's been a while). It doesn't look like Heath is benefitting EXP too much. :/ I can't imagine him being better than Isadora and Lyn, at least.

Heath's base concrete defensive parameters are 32/11 HP/Def, which is better than Isadora even when she has WTA and he has WTD. What is "destroying" him again? Res is not great, but as dondon mentioned, Pure Water, and also Barrier, works wonders for that. His high base Str and good growth also make feeding him kills quite easy, and then having quite good growths overall mean it won't be long before he can stand on his own. He could also be a great candidate for FFO's arena.

Once he does get going, and especially when he promotes, he could be a strong contender for the best unit on your team.

Of course, the last time I looked at a tier list, he was right at Bottom Tier. XD

Good thing we're past that stage.

[Swordsalmon]

Okay, that's understandable. Thanks. :) I can't say much else about the tier list, aside Hector seems a bit high up there. ^_^

Wait, how are Florina and Fiora better? Florina has the same Aid. Fiora has one less. Mobility is equal.

I was going to say Florina and Fiora will have a level advantage, supports, and resistance, but the Pure Water kind of negates that. XD

[Florete]

I was going to say Florina and Fiora will have a level advantage, supports, and resistance, but the Pure Water kind of negates that. XD

There's that. But also:

-The only stat you need for Rescuing is Aid. With Spd halved, you don't want them entering combat anyway.

-Neither Florina nor Fiora will reasonably have any (defensive) supports.

Plus, if Res were to be a reason that makes them better, Heath's Def would more than counteract it. Just sayin'.

[Mekchrious]

Checking out the list now...wondering why Canas isn't higher. He starts at level 8 on an interesting chapter. Generally, you want to slice right through the enemies and reach Fargus in 4/5 turns. With flux, Canas can easily pick off a few kills and level up, possibly 2 if you baby him a bit, in this chapter. You also have a low Raven on this chapter, who needs to get levels here. But there is plenty of higher leveled units for both of these units to collect a decent amount of exp.

On Pirate Ship, Canas can either stand behind a tank on the right side, or he can go to the left side, albeit he will need some support. Either way, his AS bonus really doesn't affect him. He wouldn't two hit mercs anyways and IIRC he can double the shamans on the left side.

Dread Isle I'll admit he's a bit hard to use. There are a lot of hard-hitting, high mov units in this chapter, and the nomads will tear him apart. Barring that, if you let stronger units take hits in forests, he can usually pick off the leftovers. If he's early promoted, he has enough skill to hide in the forests and dodge hits.

So at this point, he's probably level 13ish. This is decent for an early promotion if needed, which will give him better stats, speed, staff use, and no AS loss from Flux. If you don't promote him, he can do alright, but generally can't be a frontline fighter as he tends to use his face to block.

As soon as you receive Luna, he becomes a beast. With attack equal to his mag level, and a good crit rate, the use of this tome alone raises his spot on the list. He's one of the few units that can ORKO the dragon as long as he has 20 mag. This spell basically destroys any enemy and especially bosses, although it does have a high cost, so use on normal enemies is probably nil.

[Silvercrow]

This has been addressed a lot, so I'll just give the bare-bones rebuttal:

- Canas has almost 0 effect on what you do in 17x, Florina reaches Fargus in the same amount of turns regardless.

- Canas isn't doing anything on 18 that Erk or Lucius do not.

- Level 13 (5 levels in 3 chapters? what the) sounds like a gross overestimate to me. Besides which, he gets less out of an early promotion than Lucius since Lucius has C staff rank and can start spamming Barrier for EXP pretty quickly.

- He needs to be majorly overleveled for Luna to be useful, and even then the enemies that it's actually good against over his regular weapons are few and far between.

If anything, Canas might even be higher than I expected.

Edited February 1, 2011 by Silvercrow

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Thoughts on Raven below healers?

[Swordsalmon]

I could see the healers above Raven. The only thing I can think of against them is that healing generally becomes less valuable as time goes on, and they have quite a bit of competiton in Pent, Lucius, and Erk.

[Florete]

I could see the healers above Raven. The only thing I can think of against them is that healing generally becomes less valuable as time goes on, and they have quite a bit of competiton in Pent, Lucius, and Erk.

Agreed, though by the time healing becomes less useful they are also promoting and fighting. I'd put Pent as the only real competition because I'd rather save my extra Guiding Rings for Funds anyway, and Pent has base A staves as well for such things as Warp and Rescue.

So yeah, I'd say Raven could drop.

[Geriba]

Raven dropping below the healers is probably a good idea. Serra and Prissy contribute to the Experience rank directly, and to Tactics/Survival indirectly by keeping units alive longer. Raven is also helping with the experience rank, and he's probably the only offensive unit who's guaranteed a promotion (given how freakishly good he is as a hero), but his experience pool is split between himself and dozens of other units; Serra and Prissy split theirs two-way. He's the best as what he does, but ultimately inessential, and I can't say the same for the healers.

Small point about Heath: remember that you want to spam barriers on HHM. Funds is an easy rank to five-star thanks to the silver card, while Experience is challenging, and Heath greatly benefits from the additional seven resistance (especially in Living Legend, where he would otherwise be neutered even with his high base stats).

EDIT: Red, what would your opinion be on dropping Marcus to below Lowen? Bum-rushing the early game is less important in a ranked run, and while he's a great meatshielder, Oswin does the job of shielding and weakening enemies for other units just as well. Marcus's primary contributions are shaving off a few turns early on, rescuing units, and going to out-of-the-way villages in the early game, but I'm not sure that makes him better than the cavaliers.

Edited February 2, 2011 by Jaffar7

[Florete]

EDIT: Red, what would your opinion be on dropping Marcus to below Lowen? Bum-rushing the early game is less important in a ranked run, and while he's a great meatshielder, Oswin does the job of shielding and weakening enemies for other units just as well. Marcus's primary contributions are shaving off a few turns early on, rescuing units, and going to out-of-the-way villages in the early game, but I'm not sure that makes him better than the cavaliers.

I don't think I could see him dropping at all. Bum-rushing the early game actually is quite important, in my opinion; the main factor people use against Marcus in ranked is his low experience gain, but the sheer number of turns he can save in early maps overshadows that entirely since there's not even a whole lot of experience to gain earlier in the first place. Marcus saving turns early means you can use those turns later on when you can get much more experience out of them. He still needs to be used sparingly of course, and you won't be finishing early maps as fast as you might in a more efficient run.

Oswin's problem is his mobility. Having half the Move of Marcus is a serious disadvantage. I actually find Oswin too high on this list since it also takes a long time before he doubles anything reliably. Then he promotes and even Rescuing him is hard.

[Mekkah]

Bum-rushing the early game is less important in a ranked run, and while he's a great meatshielder, Oswin does the job of shielding and weakening enemies for other units just as well.

Even assuming we have one vacant spot in our Fire Emblem Employment Squad that says "Meat Shield" and hiring two of those isn't possible, Oswin needs to be between an enemy and a frail PC to meat shield. That's hardly feasible when everyone outruns him.

[Life]

Raven dropping below the healers is probably a good idea. Serra and Prissy contribute to the Experience rank directly, and to Tactics/Survival indirectly by keeping units alive longer. Raven is also helping with the experience rank, and he's probably the only offensive unit who's guaranteed a promotion (given how freakishly good he is as a hero), but his experience pool is split between himself and dozens of other units; Serra and Prissy split theirs two-way. He's the best as what he does, but ultimately inessential, and I can't say the same for the healers.

I can also see Raven dropping below the healers but there is one thing that you need to realize about Raven.

If I leave him out of my party at any point, I actually kinda feel it. Raven is the only unit who will reliably ORKO anything he touches from the moment that he joins. After promotion, the guy does it at 2 range. Being the best combat unit available means something when he's that far and away better than any other combat unit available (Harken is actually a close second in my books). Or at least, it means something to me. So anything less than under the healers is really pushing it.

Small point about Heath: remember that you want to spam barriers on HHM. Funds is an easy rank to five-star thanks to the silver card, while Experience is challenging, and Heath greatly benefits from the additional seven resistance (especially in Living Legend, where he would otherwise be neutered even with his high base stats).

Eh... Heath. I think a lot of people know my opinion on Heath so come to a consensus and I'll probably agree with it.

EDIT: Red, what would your opinion be on dropping Marcus to below Lowen? Bum-rushing the early game is less important in a ranked run, and while he's a great meatshielder, Oswin does the job of shielding and weakening enemies for other units just as well. Marcus's primary contributions are shaving off a few turns early on, rescuing units, and going to out-of-the-way villages in the early game, but I'm not sure that makes him better than the cavaliers.

Well Jaffar, I'll tell you what I think about Marcus.

There is no fucking way the guy drops in my opinion. He's beyond usable late in the game and I'd even go so far to say that he's even better than the Cavs with Brave Axe access and a working Resistance stat that requires no Barrier (there are other things that the staffers need to do, of course). The map that pops into my mind is Kenneth's PFoD (I can't remember if a Bishop snipes with Purge in HHM but there for sure was one in EHM). Marcus can hold his combat weight thanks to the Brave Axe (honestly, who else is going to use it aside from lategame Bartre/Dorcas looking for some Exp) and is just as good as the Cavs parameter wise at that point. Then throw in the fact that the man is absolutely clutch in the earlygame and I can't find a reason to drop him out of Top. Especially since there was no opposition to the idea when I first brought it up.

[Geriba]

Come to think of it, Oswin is a bit too high. I might explore the idea of a Marcus drop in-depth, but I think at least Oswin should move below the cavaliers. The low movement is crippling, and while he helps set up kills nicely and is a must in certain chapters (13x, 15), his use quickly wanes; as Hantz made clear, Marcus is certainly usable throughout even the late game.

Edited February 2, 2011 by Jaffar7

[Florete]

While we're on Raven, he could probably also drop below Ninian/Nils. That might be the most for now, though.

Also, I'd suggest renaming Lower Mid to Mid and everything below it accordingly. Mid should imply average, and as of now that area doesn't exist. I don't think there are any real issues with the characters currently in those tiers except possibly Karel needing to drop a tier.

Also, I find this order a bit strange:

Farina

-Bottom-

Karla

Wallace

Renault

Even if Farina is the best of the four, she shouldn't be a tier above them. That 40k deficit is quite a huge hit to Funds, and it's not like you need the flier utility when you already have 3 perfectly capable fliers available. Personally, I'd order it more like this (after the renaming):

-Low-

Renault

Farina

Karla

Wallace

Renault is the only one with no strings attached and he can be useful as a last minute healer at the top left of Victory or Death. I'd put him a tier higher if the likes of Pent, Serra, and Priscilla didn't exist, but as it is...yeah. The rest should be fairly obvious since, aside from Renault, the order hasn't changed. It's basically dropping Farina a tier and putting Renault above her.

I think someone already mentioned this, but Athos could go down. Not really for experience because by the time I think that part of the ranks should be settled, but simply for lack of availability. He's quite useful when he's around, sure, but he just doesn't have long enough to have any significant impact. Most of the duties he would be good for performing, like high level staves, can already be performed more than adequately, and you ought to be able to kill the Fire Dragon within two turns no matter what team you have as long as you weren't stupid. I guess you could say he's a fail safe since the Lords and Canas can just be screwed (and Canas may easily not be used), but I at least don't think that makes him better than the likes of Lyn and Isadora, who help out for a lot longer.

Heath could stand to rise, as stated. Not much else to say on it, but he should at least be better than Dorcas.

I'll let it sit at that for now.

[Life]

Come to think of it, Oswin is a bit too high. I might explore the idea of a Marcus drop in-depth, but I think at least Oswin should move below the cavaliers. The low movement is crippling, and while he helps set up kills nicely and is a must in certain chapters (13x, 15), his use quickly wanes; as Hantz made clear, Marcus is certainly usable throughout even the late game.

Hi, I'm Life Admiral. Remember, your buddy?

C'mon Jaffar, check the name history.

[Narga_Rocks]

Hi, I'm Life Admiral. Remember, your buddy?

C'mon Jaffar, check the name history.

You sure that post can't be done via PM?

[Geriba]

Hi, I'm Life Admiral. Remember, your buddy?

C'mon Jaffar, check the name history.

I'm not a dumbass, Hantz. Didn't want them other kids getting confused. ;)

[Viceroy]

Serra should be a tier above Priscilla. She's around longer and will have a higher level than Priscilla, especially if Lyn mode is completed. Priscilla isn't even necessary except for getting easier EXP, as more than one staff user is quite redundant before they gain access to offensive magic. Thus, until Priscilla is promoted, she is effectively useless except to get free experience points at a minor cost to funds. In fact, I do believe that Serra should be in a tier of her own (accompanied perhaps by Ninian/Nils, Matthew and Marcus) thanks to being the party's exclusive healer throughout Lyn mode and for the first 20% of HHM.

Although I do agree that Raven is slightly more powerful, I am of the opinion that Guy and Raven should be in the same tier. Guy joins slightly earlier and will be more powerful than Raven by the time Raven becomes available. Guy has an easier time killing fatter targets upon promotion thanks to the critical boost and supports that potentially increase this even further, and a significantly higher skill growth lends to being able to kill easier even with a WTD or against a boss character with high AVO. Thanks to a higher Luck stat, Guy also has improved survivability from Raven despite roughly equal HP, Def and Res. Raven does have a notable advantage in the form of higher Str, 3 points of Con, and access to axes including the flexible Hand Axe, however I feel that the existence of Reaver weapons, the Light Brand, and earlier join time are points that make the effectual differences between Guy and Raven to be too negligible to warrant a differentiation of tiers between them.

Despite free/mandatory deployment in a half-dozen chapters of HHM, Eliwood is bloody useless. Why is he so high on the list, even going so far as to place him in the same tier of undisputed gods like Hector and Oswin? Eliwood has nothing going for him except for being a mandatory deployment in a few chapters. He can't kill anything, he can't defend against anything, he's locked to swords and can't even promote until chapter 26 or whatever it is. Even with that promotion he still takes another few chapters before he's able to reliably kill something without using a killer weapon, and even then, why not just use some other character much better than Eliwood if something needs to be killed? What really irks me is that for some reason he is, not only considered to be better than Lyn (despite Lyn potentially being level 20 and boosted with an Energy Ring and Angel Robe from Lyn Mode), but an entire two tiers better.

Edited February 7, 2011 by Viceroy