Geriba Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 I'm not particularly anticipating it. I think it will accomplish nothing of value that we can't do in this thread, and I think that Jaffar7 is greatly overhyping the relevancy of debates to the tier list. In fact, I think I summarized Lyn vs. Eliwood pretty accurately in three succinct paragraphs. Oh okay dondon, nice job. So are you claiming that Eliwood and Lyn should stay in their respective places? Because unless that's what you're advocating, you'd need to formulate a position on how they should move and by what degree. Red's absolutely right: the issue is one of magnitude, and even if Eliwood > Lyn seems pretty clear, figuring out how wide the gap really is can only be a helpful tool. As for "what's been keeping me," 20 hours of college classes have been. Sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 So are you claiming that Eliwood and Lyn should stay in their respective places? What part of my statement implied that they should stay in their respective places? Clearly, words are being put in my mouth. Because unless that's what you're advocating, you'd need to formulate a position on how they should move and by what degree. No, I do not. I am just presenting information. I am not obligated to come up with a specific opinion; I prefer to leave that to everyone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geriba Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 I am simply expressing my complete rejection of the idea that debates are "useless." On the contrary, they are very helpful in gauging the degree by which a certain character excels over another, as well as detailing the ways in which this is the case. Further, an exhaustive analysis and comparison can bring to light points of perspective that might have otherwise gone unnoticed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Spoon Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 I am simply expressing my complete rejection of the idea that debates are "useless." On the contrary, they are very helpful in gauging the degree by which a certain character excels over another, as well as detailing the ways in which this is the case. Further, an exhaustive analysis and comparison can bring to light points of perspective that might have otherwise gone unnoticed. You mean whatever bullshit you can slip by the other debater that you normally wouldn't have been able to get away with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geriba Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 You mean whatever bullshit you can slip by the other debater that you normally wouldn't have been able to get away with. "Normally" wouldn't have been able to get away with? There is no "normally"; debating, for all its flaws, is the best system we have of evaluating characters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 I am simply expressing my complete rejection of the idea that debates are "useless." On the contrary, they are very helpful in gauging the degree by which a certain character excels over another, as well as detailing the ways in which this is the case. Further, an exhaustive analysis and comparison can bring to light points of perspective that might have otherwise gone unnoticed. And a single individual might very well miss points that a group of people would notice. There is no reason you cannot have an exhaustive analysis and comparison in a tier list topic. It's just that generally it's not done because there's usually no need to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randoman Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 I can't remember if I read it in this thread or not, but I guess it wouldn't be totally off topic if I asked it here. So why is Serra's and Priscilla's combat considered bad? Is it because their combat utility has poor availability or is it because they have low defense? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 I can't remember if I read it in this thread or not, but I guess it wouldn't be totally off topic if I asked it here. So why is Serra's and Priscilla's combat considered bad? Is it because their combat utility has poor availability or is it because they have low defense? It isn't considered bad at all in ranked. It's unranked where it becomes a problem because of the limit on SEXP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Yo, Life. Wasn't Raven going down? And the gap between Eliwood and Lyn starting to close? And something else I forget? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Life Posted February 22, 2011 Author Share Posted February 22, 2011 Umm yeah... Got a position for them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Lyn's gotta be better than at least Dorcas, unless Dorcas has some utility I'm unaware of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Umm yeah... Got a position for them? I believe Raven right below Ninils was agreed before. I'd put Lyn next to Dorcas and Eliwood next to Harken as a start. Others were Oswin dropping below the Cavaliers and Heath rising next to Fiora. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Life Posted February 23, 2011 Author Share Posted February 23, 2011 I believe Raven right below Ninils was agreed before. I'd put Lyn next to Dorcas and Eliwood next to Harken as a start. Others were Oswin dropping below the Cavaliers and Heath rising next to Fiora. Raven - Yes Lyn/Eliwood - Yes Oswin - Maybe Heath - Fuck no and you have to get me the number of your dealer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Heath - Fuck no and you have to get me the number of your dealer. 604-607-608. You: "Eh... Heath. I think a lot of people know my opinion on Heath so come to a consensus and I'll probably agree with it." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Heath - Fuck no and you have to get me the number of your dealer. I can see where she's coming from. Heath is statistically superior, and Fiora is only around for a few more chapters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Life Posted February 23, 2011 Author Share Posted February 23, 2011 Fox, did I not say that I'll also argue if I see him higher than I believe he should be? I can see where she's coming from. Heath is statistically superior, and Fiora is only around for a few more chapters. No, no and no. Fiora is around for a few more IMPORTANT chapters (19x and 21) and also doesn't need high amounts of training/Pure Water/Barrier to survive the high amounts of mages that litter 23 (I had problems with fielding Heath on EHM just because of the mages so 1+ Res and 4+ HP isn't going to change my opinion any time quickly). 23x gives Heath no advantages and 24 is... Ok, he can get nice amounts of Exp from tackling the Wyverns on the water (a turn early) but he needs a Physic ever other turn and it's just not worth it. After that, Fiora and Heath perform the same jobs. Let's face it. Fiora is a pumped up Heath because of her join time. Heath is stupidly overrated here simply because he's the first wyvern rider to join in this game. He's also the shittiest of the GBA Wyvern Riders barring Zeiss, mind you. 3 fliers is a bit extraneous during the midgame and at the lategame, he performs no better or worse than Fiora. There's no way I personally back him moving up a tier and I will argue this to my dying breath. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 RF's post said "rise next to", which can be different than "rise above". If you look at the tier list he can still rise and still be considered worse than Fiora. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Fox, did I not say that I'll also argue if I see him higher than I believe he should be? The problem is that, from what I'm seeing, that is "any higher than he already is." You do realize multiple people (myself, Tangerine, dondon, Anouleth, and I believe Jaffar) have agreed to him moving up and you're the only one opposed? Fiora is around for a few more IMPORTANT chapters (19x and 21) 19x is only important for the Silver Card. Fiora's flight is not particularly special here in ranked due to wanting to take an extra few turns for the extra experience on Kishuna's minions. Fiora's flight is good for, like, shopping in 21. Otherwise a normal foot team can clear this one plenty fast enough. and also doesn't need high amounts of training/Pure Water/Barrier to survive the high amounts of mages that litter 23 Who else is going to use the Barrier and Pure Water? This is not a disadvantage. 24 is... Ok, he can get nice amounts of Exp from tackling the Wyverns on the water (a turn early) but he needs a Physic ever other turn and it's just not worth it. And Fiora's better? After that, Fiora and Heath perform the same jobs. Except Heath is looking at a near double-digit Str lead and has lots more HP/Def (CoD aside, the majority of enemies from here are physical) while generally having very similar AS to not losing it from basic weaponry. Heath is stupidly overrated here simply because he's the first wyvern rider to join in this game. What? Now you're accusing us of "Ooh, Wyvern! Shiny!"? What makes you think this isn't you stupidly underrating him because you hate him and you like to make sure we all know it? He's also the shittiest of the GBA Wyvern Riders barring Zeiss, mind you. And I like crazy people. RF's post said "rise next to", which can be different than "rise above".If you look at the tier list he can still rise and still be considered worse than Fiora. This, too. Above or below Fiora is fine to me for now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 No, no and no. Fiora is around for a few more IMPORTANT chapters (19x and 21) and also doesn't need high amounts of training/Pure Water/Barrier to survive the high amounts of mages that litter 23 (I had problems with fielding Heath on EHM just because of the mages so 1+ Res and 4+ HP isn't going to change my opinion any time quickly). I can't imagine Fiora is going to be of much use against the piles of Armour Knights in Chapter 19x (the mages are essentially free exp for whoever wants them). Not so sure about Chapter 21. Nor is having someone use Barrier on Heath exactly a negative. We want to be spamming Barrier on every single turn we can't spam Heal. 23x gives Heath no advantages and 24 is... Ok, he can get nice amounts of Exp from tackling the Wyverns on the water (a turn early) but he needs a Physic ever other turn and it's just not worth it. After that, Fiora and Heath perform the same jobs. On what planet? Fiora needs to be about 20/1 just to match Heath's base level strength and concrete durability. Let's face it. Fiora is a pumped up Heath because of her join time. Heath is stupidly overrated here simply because he's the first wyvern rider to join in this game. He's also the shittiest of the GBA Wyvern Riders barring Zeiss, mind you. 3 fliers is a bit extraneous during the midgame and at the lategame, he performs no better or worse than Fiora. There's no way I personally back him moving up a tier and I will argue this to my dying breath. 30 ATK is needed to 1-round Wyvern Riders in Night of Farewells. This is level 20/17 for Fiora and level 20/2 for Heath. Unless Fiora is going to be maintaining a double digit level lead on Heath for her entire lifespan, he most certainly is performing better than Fiora. I'm perfectly happy to admit that Heath is the second worst GBA Wyvern Rider. That puts him behind what, Miledy and Cormag? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 I'm perfectly happy to admit that Heath is the second worst GBA Wyvern Rider. That puts him behind what, Miledy and Cormag? The Admiral probably forgot Vaida, who is even lower than Heath here. So yes, out of five, Heath is the worst, except for two of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 The Admiral probably forgot Vaida, who is even lower than Heath here. So yes, out of five, Heath is the worst, except for two of them. She's a Wyvern Lord (Lady?), not a Wyvern Rider. I guess that's what he probably meant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Life Posted February 23, 2011 Author Share Posted February 23, 2011 (edited) Ok fine, fine, Heath's raising, whether I like it or not. I said my peace and you guys made logical arguments countering it. I still don't like the fucker. Where to? The Admiral probably forgot Vaida, who is even lower than Heath here. So yes, out of five, Heath is the worst, except for two of them. Vaida eats Heath for breakfast, she's just got problems since she gets smart much later than the traitor. Edited February 23, 2011 by Survivor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Where to? I'd probably have him right above Fiora for now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Life Posted February 23, 2011 Author Share Posted February 23, 2011 (edited) I'd probably have him right above Fiora for now. No. No. No. I'm sorry but no. Below, fine. Above? What? You guys are overrating this fucker. Considering that he's got to pass Canas (who is miles and way better than Heath in my opinion), there's no logical reason for a guy who is not much better than Fiora at fighting should be above her when he joins later and doesn't replace her. Heath's a flier, not a fighter. His combat wins over Fiora are minimal since Killer Lances replicate the job and we're not exactly squirming for cash here. For the record, I can't believe I moved Heath above Canas. Moving Hawkeye down to the top of the next tier due to room issues. Edited February 23, 2011 by Survivor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 No. No. No. I'm sorry but no. Below, fine. Above? What? You guys are overrating this fucker. Considering that he's got to pass Canas (who is miles and way better than Heath in my opinion), there's no logical reason for a guy who is not much better than Fiora at fighting should be above her when he joins later and doesn't replace her. Heath's a flier, not a fighter. His combat wins over Fiora are minimal since Killer Lances replicate the job and we're not exactly squirming for cash here. Please read every post from here to the present again. For the record, I don't actually care whether or not you move him above Fiora (which I know means it won't happen), but to say what you're saying is ridiculous and just sounds like extreme bias. If you can't make a real case against him, cut the crap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.