S Rank Tier List for FE7

[CATS]

"Trolls people" into responding? As if people are forced to participate in the discussion? No, obviously they aren't, and if it were really so drop-dead boring, they wouldn't have.

[Rodykitty]

I didn't say people were forced to discuss Merlinus, I said they were trolled into discussing him.

Boring or not, it's caused a lot of debate and no decision making of what logic and definitions are correct for a character that has minimal, if not non-existant impact on a tier list's accuracy.

[frat_tastic]

Well, it seems like since I asked about it, more people have responded favorably to tiering Merlinus than unfavorably.

[Life]

Well, it seems like since I asked about it, more people have responded favorably to tiering Merlinus than unfavorably.

Fine. I call for him to be two tiers over Top. No joke.

Honestly, try S Ranking HHM without ever fielding Merlinus and without ever putting anything in the convoy. If you can't do it, I rest my case.

[Narga_Rocks]

Fine. I call for him to be two tiers over Top. No joke.

Honestly, try S Ranking HHM without ever fielding Merlinus and without ever putting anything in the convoy. If you can't do it, I rest my case.

We've already countered your holding items thing. Holding 100 items shouldn't count towards his contributions as you otherwise must tier the fe9 Convoy Crew among other things. All he gets is the "send to merlinus" option and letting units grab things from him mid-chapter. I suppose if you can pull anything off with his move after promotion then there is that too. I don't think you can get two tiers above top just off of that. Especially since I still question crediting him for "send to merlinus".

[Anouleth]

Fine. I call for him to be two tiers over Top. No joke.

Honestly, try S Ranking HHM without ever fielding Merlinus and without ever putting anything in the convoy. If you can't do it, I rest my case.

Send me a save file with HHM unlocked, and I'll give it a go.

Also, the existence of the convoy has no link to Merlinus, really, since I don't need to deploy him to be able to deposit and withdraw stuff from the Convoy in Preparations. Even so, many unused characters will lie around with empty inventories, so every character I'm not using is contributing 5 of their own spaces to store my Contracts and Seals and assorted McGuffins.

[Life]

We've already countered your holding items thing. Holding 100 items shouldn't count towards his contributions as you otherwise must tier the fe9 Convoy Crew among other things. All he gets is the "send to merlinus" option and letting units grab things from him mid-chapter. I suppose if you can pull anything off with his move after promotion then there is that too. I don't think you can get two tiers above top just off of that. Especially since I still question crediting him for "send to merlinus".

Why can't we give him credit for holding items just because other games don't give him credit? His job is to hold 95 more items than anyone else. It's also to send items to the convoy in the middle of the battle. Why give him credit for one and not for the other? Both fall under the convoy's job description.

Let me say this loud and clear. I think Merlinus is ridiculous. We either deny him part of his purpose (it's like denying Jaffar of Silencer or Guy/Karel/Karla/Hawkeye of 20+ Crit bonus) which is unfair because we're not judging him properly or we can realize that S Ranking HHM is impossible without him and he not only auto-tops the list but has a tier all to himself which is again stupid because Merlinus doesn't have to do anything to gain this achievement. But since Shire is so adamant on putting him on the list and other people agree with him on it, I'm trying to find a suitable spot for old Merlinus. What do you think Narga, somewhere under Pent but above Canas?

[dondon151]

Well, if you think about it, you can't hold items in a convoy prior to chapter 17 if Merlinus was not recruited after chapter 13x. But you also can't hypothesize "if Merlinus weren't here" because there's no instance in the game after chapter 17 where Merlinus is absent.

[Rewjeo]

Merlinus gets credit for what he does in-chapter. All he is is a link to the convoy. You can't say that it's akin to denying Jaffar Silencer since he uses it in-chapter.

[Florete]

Also, the existence of the convoy has no link to Merlinus, really, since I don't need to deploy him to be able to deposit and withdraw stuff from the Convoy in Preparations. Even so, many unused characters will lie around with empty inventories, so every character I'm not using is contributing 5 of their own spaces to store my Contracts and Seals and assorted McGuffins.

This is pretty much why I think he shouldn't get credit just for having 100 item spaces. It doesn't really have anything to do with him as a unit since I get it regardless of anything else I ever do, with him or anyone else. And I can't think of any other instance in any other FE where we credit units for things they don't even do on the map itself. It would be like crediting Ilyana for carting items to the GM's in RD, which we don't do.

If he were to be tiered (which I still think is pointless but don't really care about), the only things I think he would be credited for are allowing the Send option mid-map and extremely minor stuff like allowing units to grab items mid-battle and shopping/village visiting (stuff I rarely, if ever, use).

[Narga_Rocks]

Why can't we give him credit for holding items just because other games don't give him credit? His job is to hold 95 more items than anyone else. It's also to send items to the convoy in the middle of the battle. Why give him credit for one and not for the other? Both fall under the convoy's job description.

He doesn't need to be deployed to do so. You can completely ignore his existence after recruiting him and still be able to have 100 items held by him. It's like crediting sue for getting you into 20x on fe6 sacae route. You can recruit her, keep her alive in chapter 6 and 9 and then bench her and completely ignore her afterwards. You still get to go to 20x. Ditto Tate only you just have to keep her alive for one chapter. There are a ton of things to give credit for should you also credit him for holding 100 other items. And in addition we should then start tiering the fe9 Convoy Crew.

the "send to merlinus" option is in chapter, like slize said. Units should and do get credit for the things they go out and do (with the exception of things like seizing because it trivializes parts of the list). What they can pull off when benched is probably not something for which they deserve credit.

[K3Nyy]

He doesn't need to be deployed to do so. You can completely ignore his existence after recruiting him and still be able to have 100 items held by him. It's like crediting sue for getting you into 20x on fe6 sacae route. You can recruit her, keep her alive in chapter 6 and 9 and then bench her and completely ignore her afterwards. You still get to go to 20x. Ditto Tate only you just have to keep her alive for one chapter. There are a ton of things to give credit for should you also credit him for holding 100 other items. And in addition we should then start tiering the fe9 Convoy Crew.

the "send to merlinus" option is in chapter, like slize said. Units should and do get credit for the things they go out and do (with the exception of things like seizing because it trivializes parts of the list). What they can pull off when benched is probably not something for which they deserve credit.

You can apply the same logic to Matthew, he does it get you the Silver Card, but you can just ignore him afterward.

If one doesn't go to chapter 13x, they don't get Merlinus or the supply convey. However, if one does visit 13x, they get Merlinus along with his convey.

Isn't this a trait of his class, meaning therefore taking away the 100 spots is like taking away like Admiral Life said, Jaffar's Silencer or Guy/Karel/Karla/Hawkeye's 20+ Crit bonus?

[Life]

If one doesn't go to chapter 13x, they don't get Merlinus or the supply convey. However, if one does visit 13x, they get Merlinus along with his convey.

1. Life Admiral. Not Admiral Life. Life Admiral.

2. Wrong. Merlinus joins in Chapter 17 if you don't go to 13x.

[Narga_Rocks]

You can apply the same logic to Matthew, he does it get you the Silver Card, but you can just ignore him afterward.

Then he still gets credit for the silver card. Duh. He'd just not be able to do anything else and thus he wouldn't get credit for anything after the point where you start ignoring him. But since you can still use him to steal other stuff and open other chests, why wouldn't you keep using him? Also, if we are tiering units based on what they can do, then you can't just not field Matthew after the silver card and only give him credit for that one action.

It is so very much not the "same logic" to somehow prevent Matthew from getting credit for his contribution. Anything he does on the field he gets credit for. Anything Merlinus does on the field he gets credit for. What matthew does without being on the field (re: nothing) he gets no credit for. What merlinus does without being on the field (100 item slots) he gets no credit for. How is this complicated?

If one doesn't go to chapter 13x, they don't get Merlinus or the supply convey. However, if one does visit 13x, they get Merlinus along with his convey.

Okay, woopie. But that isn't about Merlinus. He either exists or he doesn't. Once he's there (starting in chapter 17 at the latest) you get 100 item slots regardless. Once Matthew is there, he can sit on the bench and do nothing. Thus, he can get credit for anything for which you need to get him off the bench so that he can go and do. Just like Merlinus.

Isn't this a trait of his class, meaning therefore taking away the 100 spots is like taking away like Admiral Life said, Jaffar's Silencer or Guy/Karel/Karla/Hawkeye's 20+ Crit bonus?

Not even close. Jaffar's silencer is 100% useless if you never deploy him. Ditto crit bonus. Item slots? don't need to deploy him. Units get credit for what they can do. Not who they are. Merlinus and his 100 slots is completely different from anything else in existence. He doesn't have to do anything. What kind of meaningless list would want to tier Merlinus based on something like that?

And remember, giving Merlinus that credit means you must credit shin for getting you to 20x. If you talk to him with sue (and keep both alive) you get to go to 20x. If you don't, you can't go. Just like that 13x thing you mentioned. Therefore they get credit for that. Except that's utterly pointless for tiering. Why should I credit Merlinus for his slots? It makes no sense.

[K3Nyy]

I was under the assumption that the tier list gives credit to units for how much help they provide to S-Ranking. Taken from the first page, "If you're better at S Ranking HHM, you're higher up on the tier list." It doesn't say anything about being fielded, but that's something I might not have read.

And remember, giving Merlinus that credit means you must credit shin for getting you to 20x. If you talk to him with sue (and keep both alive) you get to go to 20x. If you don't, you can't go. Just like that 13x thing you mentioned. Therefore they get credit for that. Except that's utterly pointless for tiering. Why should I credit Merlinus for his slots? It makes no sense.

I don't see the connection with Sue and Merlinus, but Sue's situation does seem incredibly similar to Nino's situation.

1. Life Admiral. Not Admiral Life. Life Admiral.

2. Wrong. Merlinus joins in Chapter 17 if you don't go to 13x.

I went by your username (err.. half of it) on Sereneforest. ><" My apologies.

Yes, I know that he joins in Chapter 17, but my point was that without Merlinus joining that early, one would not get that 100 inventory spots for those 4 chapters. Therefore, it is only logical one credits him with it.

[nflchamp]

Not even close. Jaffar's silencer is 100% useless if you never deploy him. Ditto crit bonus. Item slots? don't need to deploy him. Units get credit for what they can do. Not who they are. Merlinus and his 100 slots is completely different from anything else in existence. He doesn't have to do anything. What kind of meaningless list would want to tier Merlinus based on something like that?

And remember, giving Merlinus that credit means you must credit shin for getting you to 20x. If you talk to him with sue (and keep both alive) you get to go to 20x. If you don't, you can't go. Just like that 13x thing you mentioned. Therefore they get credit for that. Except that's utterly pointless for tiering. Why should I credit Merlinus for his slots? It makes no sense.

Which really only brings us back to the question of: if the convoy wasn't called "Merlinus", would we try to tier it?

Edit: I mean, Merlinus doesn't have to do anything to have us send him stuff, either. So why should he get credit for that and not the other? Both are his functions of the convoy.

Edited April 8, 2010 by nflchamp

[Rewjeo]

Do we tier the convoy in other games? No, I don't think we do. But we DO give them credit for their 105 item inventory. Why is it so hard to do the same thing for Merlinus?

[nflchamp]

Do we tier the convoy in other games? No, I don't think we do. But we DO give them credit for their 105 item inventory. Why is it so hard to do the same thing for Merlinus?

That's the problem. We don't tier the convoy in other games because we DON'T give them credit for their inventory. We assume the game mechanic exists (because it does) and move on. Why should the convoy get tiered when given a face?

[Narga_Rocks]

I don't see the connection with Sue and Merlinus, but Sue's situation does seem incredibly similar to Nino's situation.

It is something sue is responsible for without every being fielded (after chapter 9). Merlinus getting credit for slots is similar.

Also, those 100 slots from 13x to 17 aren't too relevant, either. Life Admiral seems to think that the 100 slots are required for s-ranking. Thing is, all you need to do is s rank in the end. You can wait till 17 and still get those slots for holding stuff for the rest of the game. Having him from 13x to 17 would not make a big impact even if you credit him for it.

[Life]

It is something sue is responsible for without every being fielded (after chapter 9). Merlinus getting credit for slots is similar.

Also, those 100 slots from 13x to 17 aren't too relevant, either. Life Admiral seems to think that the 100 slots are required for s-ranking. Thing is, all you need to do is s rank in the end. You can wait till 17 and still get those slots for holding stuff for the rest of the game. Having him from 13x to 17 would not make a big impact even if you credit him for it.

I do think so. If you can S Rank HHM without using the convoy in any way, shape or form, then I will gladly say that Merlinus doesn't deserve his own tier miles above everyone else. However Merlinus is the convoy. The way I see it is that the first 5 slots are given (he gets no credit for them) but he does for the other 95.

[Narga_Rocks]

I do think so. If you can S Rank HHM without using the convoy in any way, shape or form, then I will gladly say that Merlinus doesn't deserve his own tier miles above everyone else. However Merlinus is the convoy. The way I see it is that the first 5 slots are given (he gets no credit for them) but he does for the other 95.

Except you can ignore his existence completely from the word go and still get those slots.

A question: when using preparations to move things to and from the convoy, is merlinus even mentioned by name or does it say "supply" and "convoy" and things like that? I know it says merlinus specifically when talking about on the field sending, but what about the preparation screen? Regardless, dude shouldn't be on the list since there are convoys in other games. This one just sticks a name on it. Give him credit for the 100 items and I want to start tiering Aimee and co. Maybe we can tier the pawn shop dude in fe4, too. How else would you move around the elite ring if he didn't exist? And like RF said, give Ilyana credit for bringing stuff to the GMs.

(edit: @bold, wow, what a typo. Missed the n't and completely changed the meaning)

Edited April 8, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Florete]

Is it just me, or are people talking about having Merlinus from 14-16 as if that's something he gives us and gets credit for? Because Merlinus doesn't visit the village in 13 or protect himself in 13x.

[Narga_Rocks]

Is it just me, or are people talking about having Merlinus from 14-16 as if that's something he gives us and gets credit for? Because Merlinus doesn't visit the village in 13 or protect himself in 13x.

Yeah, but they are focusing on having his slots for an extra few chapters. Crediting others for giving access to his slots would be like crediting Nino for getting Jaffar's silencer.

But still, Merlinus as a unit, if others want to bring up the class argument, is basically a unit that provides a bridge to the convoy while on the field. In the base I don't think it mentions him by name, or at least not in fe6. Game calls it "storage" while in the base/preparations. In other words, Merlinus is an on the field only conduit to the convoy, but he is not the convoy itself. Hence, no 100 slots, sorry. All he gets, if we even accept it, would be send to merlinus during the chapter and letting you grab stuff from the convoy during a chapter.

I've never played, so do you get preparations before Merlinus? In other words, is there a time in which you have the preparations screen but can't access the convoy/storage? Even if there is, there is still the question of tiering the convoys of other games.

[Florete]

Yeah, but they are focusing on having his slots for an extra few chapters. Crediting others for giving access to his slots would be like crediting Nino for getting Jaffar's silencer.

But if he doesn't get credit for it later, he shouldn't get credit for it earlier just because it's possible not to have him since he isn't the one who causes himself to be available.

And I wasn't saying to credit others for him, I just don't think he should be given any credit.

I've never played, so do you get preparations before Merlinus? In other words, is there a time in which you have the preparations screen but can't access the convoy/storage? Even if there is, there is still the question of tiering the convoys of other games.

In Lyn's mode there is, since that has no convoy at all for the entire thing. I've never skipped 13x before but I'd assume if you do that you get Preparations as normal at 14 but don't get Merlinus until later.

[Life]

Just you, Fox.

Except you can ignore his existence completely from the word go and still get those slots.

A question: when using preparations to move things to and from the convoy, is merlinus even mentioned by name or does it say "supply" and "convoy" and things like that? I know it says merlinus specifically when talking about on the field sending, but what about the preparation screen? Regardless, dude shouldn't be on the list since there are convoys in other games. This one just sticks a name on it. Give him credit for the 100 items and I want to start tiering Aimee and co. Maybe we can tier the pawn shop dude in fe4, too. How else would you move around the elite ring if he didn't exist? And like RF said, give Ilyana credit for bringing stuff to the GMs.

(edit: @bold, wow, what a typo. Missed the n't and completely changed the meaning)

Then we shouldn't tier him and those who want to should STFU. I personally don't want to tier him. But since we have to apparently (he's a unit, we have to be consistant, blah blah blah /sarcasm), I have no choice but to argue him for a specific spot. He's either vital or close to useless. Take your pick.