Lord of Azure Flame: Chat

[Dark Sage]

Well about throwing a temper tantrum when things don't go my way?

Edited July 19, 2010 by Dark Sage

[Psych]

@Phoenix

If they can beat the group and tie up one of the weilders, they'll try to warp out and take the CW with them. Helenos can sever the weapon. They just need the body.

@Sage

I was talking about the politeness thing. You're never polite.

Edited July 19, 2010 by psychout50

[Dark Sage]

None of us here are truly polite, though some more than others.

I snark when I get annoyed, so that's probably it.

[Psych]

Well I'm going to bed. My plots will resume in the morning.

[Phoenix]

Well about throwing a temper tantrum when things don't go my way?

Actually you were throwing a tantrum about someone else trying too hard to get their way. Slight difference.

@Phoenix

If they can beat the group and tie up one of the weilders, they'll try to warp out and take the CW with them. Helenos can sever the weapon. They just need the body.

Don't you have to actually pull that off first?

@Sage

I was talking about the politeness thing. You're never polite.

Compared to that girl I used to know he's pretty polite >_>'

@ Snark

Heheh.

@ Rudeness

Well ... if I ever get over Cuddles I'll stop cussing so much. That's a start.

Goodnight, Kujacker.

Edited July 19, 2010 by Phoenix

[Balcerzak]

I have to go on the record and say my opinion of last night is that it was a mess, and I'm growing more and more unhappy with the increasing prevalence of "character controls" being brought into play more and more frequently. If you're down half or more of the players, and you want to do a full party event... you wait. Plain and simple. It's courtesy to those involved, and there's nothing mandating an incredibly rapid pace (7+ pages in one night is ridiculous, seriously), especially when the quality suffers as a result (which it certainly did).

"Character Controls" are fine for limited per-time basis as a means of making sure nobody is left behind, etc. or to allow you to gauge how someone is liable to respond and work that into your post as a means of cutting down on one-liners. However, at the point where there's an extended and continuing period of repeated posting of one character by a player that is not their controller, without any intervening chances to make sure things are actually proceeding on track and according to wishes, that is far and beyond crossing the line, IMO.

Seriously, last night practically saw one character get more action while their controller was away than previously in the past week or two of when the controller was actually present. If we let this trend continue, we might as well not even still have individual characters anymore... :/ Since nobody ever waits for anybody else, the moment you're gone, you've either given permission for someone with a shaky-to-decent idea of what you might do try run your character (but often they won't actually do anything with said permission: either due to respect, negligence, or because they're having trouble just keeping up with their own dudes), or you're left hours or more in the past, and things you definitely would have taken steps to manage differently, or interject with, are long past any sort of meaningful contribution.

Now maybe I'm the only one that feels this way, but I felt that we've recently seen a quite explicit demonstration, in action, of many of the complaints brought up previously in the feedback thread, that many players received in an overly hostile fashion without giving them due consideration. With Kai's "Okay guys, retcon everything I did," and the fact that the entire plot progression became little more than a vehicle for extended Phoenix monologue, due to his having de facto control of every character places this recent event quite nearly at the same level of debacle as psych's failures in the graveyard, as far as how it is damaging to the RP, IMO. Of course, the motivations and intentions were entirely different and much less malignant and selfish due to the fact that it had been a sort of coordinated affair between many players (though the fact that only half were present for most of it, and the repeated refusal of Shanice to retreat even when the other planners were like "c'mon?" do leave me with a slightly fishy feeling), but the results were still a disaster. Reading through it, I didn't get a sense of "epic" but rather found myself confused, saddened by lost potential, and actually (believe it or not bored) at times. Yes, badly managed monologues and confusing retcons are boring, people.

Perhaps I'm way out of line here, I mean, it wasn't any of my characters that got hijacked. And maybe I'm the only one that feels this way, though I have suspicions that this is not the case. But I at least owe it to all of you to speak up when I think things are in trouble, rather than just stew in my discontent, or just watch the RP spiral into a trainwreck. There's nothing less productive that refusing to even speak up while steadily becoming more and more disenchanted with the current state of affairs.

Edit:

I mean, seriously, look at the following posts in chronological order and tell me what the fuck just happened, because I honestly have no clue. Seriously. Why the hell is Alferis nearly unconscious? Did he run into Cess literally and hit his head, or what???

"Hmmm? What was that?" said Alferis, hearing fighting by the camp. He drew his tomahawk and ran back to camp.

"We'll talk and spar later."

Cess:

Cess dropped the javelin with the fish. He ran over to Morrey, and mounted. The others were fighting, but it wouldn't last long. Morgan had been the first to go down, but he put her on the horse, and went to get Damian and Esphyr.

--------------

Pary:

"Can't you people see I'm having breakfast here?" Pary finished his cup of tea, before setting the cup down. He walked calmly out of the camp, while the others had the demons taken care of. He walked over to the river, where he could see Damian and Esphyr from the bank. He headed towards them.

Will edit.

Alferis ran into Cess and Pary. Cess seemed frantic.

"What's going on? I heard fighting near the camp? Do you guys know anything?"

"Shit," he grunted. "Damian! Esphyr! This is right up your alley!" he yelled as he tried to get up. He was fighting unconsciousness, trying to protect the mages and get back to camp.

Ruby appeared in front of Cess and Pary after Alferis fell. "Time to die, boys."

Edited July 19, 2010 by Balcerzak

[Snowy_One]

The FMA movie with them in the Nazi Germany was VERY good and I enjoyed it. Anyways, sup?

[Dark Sage]

I have to agree with Bal here. I didn't like it either, but I didn't say anything because frankly, I'm tired of being considered the douchebag around here.

Anyway Alf got unconscious because Ruby slashed him across the back.

[Snowy_One]

I didn't like it, but considering part of the reason why was because Damian and Esphyr were interrupted, I would rather keep quiet.

[Dark Sage]

Actually, I had no idea this was going to happen considering how I was absent this weekend. I had Alf walk in on them because I thought it might be interesting.

Though I could see why you didn't like that as well as the whole battle scene.

[Snowy_One]

Neh. I wouldn't have minded Alf breaking them up, but getting interrupted by a battle is a serious romance killer.

[Dark Sage]

The whole Roleplaying scene was awkward though and it was begining to devolve into softcore porn.

The battle scene was worse and I think we need to stop handing control over to psych and Kai considering how they have no idea what the hell they're doing.

[Balcerzak]

I have to agree with Bal here. I didn't like it either, but I didn't say anything because frankly, I'm tired of being considered the douchebag around here.

Anyway Alf got unconscious because Ruby slashed him across the back.

I don't know that people consider you in that poor regard. It's true, you are rather vocal, and do tend to get worked up a little easier than others, so this probably does set you up a bit more as a focal point for some conflict, but I don't think opinions of you are as bad as you fear. It's probably mostly just a 'people worked up in the heat of the moment' thing, more than anything else.

I pretty much inferred that's what had to have happened. I just pulled that particular example because a) it was the most flagrant and glaring example of severe battle confusion, and b) it was right on the page where I had left off before retiring.

I didn't like it, but considering part of the reason why was because Damian and Esphyr were interrupted, I would rather keep quiet.

See, I almost pulled the same thing: just keeping quiet because part of the reason is my time zone likes to fuck me over, and I don't really know how much of my feelings are fueled by that, and how much of them are legitimate complaints. But if everybody stays silent because they're afraid of getting called out on possible ulterior motives for dissatisfaction, then everyone will (falsely) assume that they were the only one that was bothered and the issue will never really get addressed.

The battle scene was worse and I think we need to stop handing control over to psych and Kai considering how they have no idea what the hell they're doing.

See, that solution isn't really fair either, though. It would really suck to say, "you guys can play for all the bits but the fun bits."

That said, I can't see them as effective scene leaders unless they shape up considerably (which maybe the further paragraphs might help address?), and if that's what you meant by 'hand over control', then I guess I'm in some measure of agreement.

I think most of the problem really is the fact that people are too afraid of getting ninja'd, not putting enough time into things, making posts self-consistent, in-character, and then even harder externally-consistent, and fair and balanced. Let me submit for the record the timestamps:

View PostDark Sage, on 19 July 2010 - 03:05 AM, said:

View Postpsychout50, on 19 July 2010 - 03:07 AM, said:

View PostKai, on 19 July 2010 - 03:08 AM, said:

View PostDark Sage, on 19 July 2010 - 03:09 AM, said:

View PostKai, on 19 July 2010 - 03:10 AM, said:

Five posts in as many minutes. That generates far too much of a sense of urgency, and I can't honestly see how one can be expected to knock out a quality, believable post in that short a time.

Especially for battle posts, which are notably much more complex than dialogue. Maybe I'm just slow (I mean, honestly, if I can crank out a post every 10-15 minutes I'm on a freaking roll), or apply unreasonable standards (people do tell me I'm too hard on myself), but I think that if more time were taken per post, to make sure it's up to snuff, then there would be far less need for retcons, far fewer wall-bangers, and much less complete chaos and confusion.

[Snike]

...

How in hell did I miss that part?

Anyways, it might be nice to point out the particular offenders in the character-possession going overboard, though.

In context, does anyone need Cav rescue?

[Psych]

I wasn't aware during what happened last night that I was doing anything wrong.

My posts are typically detailed, and cover the bases on what my characters need to say, think, etc. They're not on Bal level detailed or wall of texty, but they're good. Probably Snike or Sage level.

The graveyard thing, Sage is just getting angry because apparently I didn't prepare, which is a lie. The skeleton issue was solved in a matter of minutes, and everything else ran smoothly from there.

Another reason my posts aren't as long as Bal's or detailed or whatever, is rather than the characters thinking to themselves, they talk to others, which requires a post by them to respond. Tessa's more self interaction I think. I do describe the area around them however, and I try to be detailed with that.

[Ansem]

@ Bal: I retconned since i was ninja'd and confused as hell. It all ended up well in the end but its kind of hard to figh twhen you have more the one foe on you back.

@ Damian: No one relived me of his CC? Can i take Aiya over for a sec to get him out of here?

@ Lucielle: Oh (Hey). She's been traveling on this road to long. (too long) Just trying to find her way back home. (Back home) Now she is dead and gone, dead and gone

[Snike]

Honestly, I'd like to be more detailed, but that would take me forever. And it would require character controls.

Psych, Pary should probably go patch up the healers.

[Phoenix]

*yawn*

Morning all.

@ Bal

Crud, I've a lot to address. As far as speaking your mind, go right ahead. I do. If you're out of line, then Psych needs to be shot for mutiny.

@ The battle

Okay I'll just start by saying that I agree with most of what you said. I have no intention of vindicating myself despite how this will likely come across. As far as the attack itself, things got off track due to the urgency. I'd planned for most if not all of my characters to be severely injured in the attack(which is why Shanice turned into something big enough to accomplish just that). Since the battle was managed by just Kai and me initially, we(I) had a lot of CCs in our laps. I'll admit straight out that I was in a huge rush to accomplish the following:

Kill at least one character (One of my own)

Steal at least one CW (GM approved)

Injure most if not all characters under my control (Self explanatory)

If you notice, Shanice went nuts during the monologues. That was my way of buying myself more time without KOing everyone in one post. I even hinted at it previously(how upset he was for failing) so it wouldn't be surprising if and when it happened. The battle itself was split between duels(Kai and Kiryn) and dragon slaying(Myself). Yeah, a total fiasco, but the circumstances(premature attack) and lack of foresight are to blame here ... well, and the poor management.

I'll also admit that my part of the plan was a little too inflexible(though everything but the injury count was accomplished). But at least I can take a lot away from this. For one I've learned that these attacks can't just be settled on(and then expected to go off without a hitch just because the in-rp timing was good). Also, no offense, Kai, but you've really gotta work on your execution. Also, I learned that we should never engage Psych's characters because the threat of those damn shadow mages is still being dangled over our heads. What else? Oh yeah, though Cynthia doesn't prevent these kinds of things from falling apart, we should still wait til she's online(especially since Petros suggested the attack).

Overall, the first part went according to plan(speaking of what I was involved in), the middle of the battle screwed everything up(at which point I had to improvise due to being rushed), and the end of the battle was decent enough for me(improvision worked well enough). But seriously, in the future, can we please not launch any attacks unless everyone involved on the enemy's side is online? That took way too much effort and nearly dragged the whole thing down all on its own.

@ CCs

I was WAY too overworked yesterday(I wouldn't have taken on so many CCs if I knew the battle would be so badly rushed). Normally I can handle a lot of characters, but the pace of the battle was way too damn fast for me to post the way I wanted to(content, context, and relevance). As I said before, I wanted to wait until more people were online(wait til the next day), but the battle started pretty much at the same time I mentioned that, so I had to just roll with it, and hope for the best.

I'm actually against using CCs in battle(unless too many people are gone, but in that case it should be postponed anyway), but there would be no way to explain why half of the party just sat back and watched while the other half was overpowered by demons. I tried my best, but there was too much to do, and not nearly enough time. By the time I realized that they were ready to call off the attack, Shanice was too mixed up in the events(And suddenly retreating while winning the battle made absolutely no sense). It was way too mixed up at that point to look like anything short of a random withdrawal.

As for individual CCs ... I'll go over them individually

@ Conrad

I don't know if he was in character or not, but Lightning trusted me enough to give me a shot at it. Since the pegasus knights were so heavily involved in the fighting, it really didn't sit well with me for Conrad to not be in the battle at all, so I implemented him as best I could. No regrets. Live and learn.

@ Chase

This also wasn't something that Chase would just disappear for, but I didn't want to overwork myself(which happened anyway), so I made his fight more of a cameo than anything else.

@ Megae

No complaints from Kiryn, and once she took over I was relieved.

@ Aiya

She didn't do as much, but the aerial attack on Shanice and the Morgan rescue seemed in character enough. Hopefully Ether agrees.

@ Eric

Snike seemed satisfied though Eric wasn't injured while under my control. As I said before, I only brought him in because it seemed way too weird for him(and the others) to be absent during an attack, especially the largest coordinated demon attack to date.

@ Derek and Dani

All I did here was place them. By that time, Snike was online, so he took over. This was probably the smoothest of all the CCs ... and easiest. Not really that much of a CC at all. Simple character placement mostly.

@ Damian

All I saw from Damian was fighting, so I've got almost nothing to comment on. This might be the one Kai handled okay. Not sure how Ether would have handled it though. Normally Ether has Damian throw curses around so I can't be sure here.

@ Petros

This is why I wanted Cynthia to be here for the battle. We don't even know if Petros was in character or not. Does he really just stand there and take hits while hoping for a challenge(like a standard DEF based Villain), or does he counter consistently and not give people a chance to pierce his defense(Like a tactical genius)? Cynthia has to clear that one up. I've got nothing else on this.

@ Kai and Psych

Just stop rushing things so much. It'll be easier for everyone else if you do.

[Psych]

@Phoenix

I never said you couldn't hurt my characters, I mean, you grabbed them in the tentacle things. What I said was, or at least what I meant, was if the group starts to loose too badly they'd pop in.

Like if you had gotten Iso and Morgan's weapons, they'd have shown up. Or if too many people got wounded.

They were to basically draw the demons off, and give the group room to breath.

Trust me, you'll know when I'm dangling them.

Edited July 19, 2010 by psychout50

[Ansem]

He throws stone around according to his sign up. I kinda did rush in with Ruby because she didnt have a particular enemy. :/

[Phoenix]

@Phoenix

I never said you couldn't hurt my characters, I mean, you grabbed them in the tentacle things. What I said was, or at least what I meant, was if the group starts to loose too badly they'd pop in.

Like if you had gotten Iso and Morgan's weapons, they'd have shown up. Or if too many people got wounded.

They were to basically draw the demons off, and give the group room to breath.

Trust me, you'll know when I'm dangling them.

@ Mages showing up

I'm glad you're trying to keep them in character by randomly showing up [/sarcasm]

In all seriousness though, them showing up would have just made a bad situation worse.

HM freaking out again

Shanice getting even more pissed off

The group not getting room to breathe

Etc

@ Stealing CWs

I was satisfied with one, and the situation would have to be a bit more dire for Iso to be severed. Morgan just happened to be unconscious, so hers was taken.

@Tenticles/Arms

Cess was only grabbed because I was under the impression that Morgan was his passenger on Morrey. Otherwise I'd have left him alone for the most part. You notice after I changed it to "Grabbed Morgan from the ground", Cess wasn't mentioned. I assumed he would just cut himself free and I could wash my hands of the whole mix up.

@ Ruby

Uh ... live and learn?

[Ansem]

Ruby's going after Esphyr next time. Stat battle.

[Snowy_One]

Ruby... Will be in for a shock.

[Ansem]

I'll weaken her a bit.

[Snowy_One]

...

You realize Esphyr WANTS her sword gone, right? Ruby could go up to her and ask and she would probably give it away.