Integ's gon' rank the characters!

[Integrity]

I'm not going by efficiency standards. I'm not low-turning everything, but I'm not sticking around for 45+ turns to feed every kill to Ross. It's a namby-pamby answer, yes, but it's middle of the line.

Take an "efficient" playthrough, add a couple turns everywhere without including boss abuse (think 3 to 4-starring Tactics in FE7) and there you have it.

[BBM]

Really bad, yes, but really short. And unlike the other Trainees, he reliably comes out of it thanks to the low enemy level and the Hatchet.

Oh no, he's the best trainee by far, both because of the Hatchet and his availability, but he gets ORKOd by Brigands in his joining chapter if you're trying to have him snipe from the back and fail to protect him properly. Then, his speed, while better than Garcia's, is still quite iffy. He won't be doubling for a while, and if he gets screwed, might get doubled. And he always requires a bit of favouritism, no matter what. 'Course, training any early game character is favouritism when you have Seth.

[Integrity]

Everybody requires favoritism by that definition - early game or not - BBM. That's why I pretend Seth is only taking a few kills if any and why my turn counts tend to be high.

Edited June 19, 2010 by Integrity

[dondon151]

Not really. If you want units to get to super awesome levels, then you will have to hold Seth back, but there are a handful of earlygame units who are still serviceable by getting their own kills while letting Seth do his job. Ross is not one of them.

[Rewjeo]

Ross, as eloquently put by a man wiser than I, joins your party in Chapter 2 at level -10.

Aww, shucks :D

Anyways, I think 8.0 is too high, even if we aren't going that efficiently. Is he really contributing more than Saleh, Forde, or Artur?

[Integrity]

That's why I have you guys. To ask me questions I forget to ask myself when I type this shit out in a stream of consciousness.

@dondon: frankly, I find Seth difficult to account for. My playstyle (the one I write from, after all) involves minimal use of Seth or Marcus or fe9!Tits or Sothe or Jeigan or ... ... ...

Even if I'm fielding say Seth, he's generally only getting critical kills (read: somebody kills this guy or I have to reset) and whatever aggroes him over Franz on the EP. Or boss kills that nobody else is going to reliably take (gets doubled in return, faces crit, can't fucking hit, etc.)

Therefore, in all my FE runs ever, the lower units get many more kills than the Seths in the early game, and the gap is closed in the early portions of the mid-game. Having never ever played differently, I find it difficult to account for an "efficient" use of Seth that isn't Sethskipping.

-

Slize: He can drop from 8.0. I'm not set on his rating - frankly, I never am but I argue for the sake of stubbornness - but I could argue that he contributes more than Saleh if he's fielded meaningfully. Put it this way: if Saleh arrives in C12 Eirika, Ross is probably pushing his teens as a Pirate (or fighter?), and has been meaningfully contributing for a small handful of chapters so far. Ross would be on par with Saleh, or half a point offset. However, I have no such arguments for Forde and Artur as of now. Curse me for never planning ahead on posts.

Edited June 19, 2010 by Integrity

[BBM]

I think you docked a point or half-point off Artur simply because he wasn't quite as good as Lute, something that I'm not quite in agreement with. Artur might have worse stats, but he can go Bishop, which is extremely broken in this game.

[Integrity]

Actually, now that you mention it, I think I intended to have a half-point disparity and not a whole point between them.

EDIT: To that end, swapped Artur and Ross, Garcia up half a point to sit with Innes.

Edited June 19, 2010 by Integrity

[Anouleth]

Slize: He can drop from 8.0. I'm not set on his rating - frankly, I never am but I argue for the sake of stubbornness - but I could argue that he contributes more than Saleh if he's fielded meaningfully. Put it this way: if Saleh arrives in C12 Eirika, Ross is probably pushing his teens as a Pirate (or fighter?), and has been meaningfully contributing for a small handful of chapters so far. Ross would be on par with Saleh, or half a point offset. However, I have no such arguments for Forde and Artur as of now. Curse me for never planning ahead on posts.

Ross is probably not pushing his teens as a Pirate. He would need to gain more than twenty levels in 10 chapters in order to be at that level - and while I can see that kind of level gain when he's a Journeyman, I can't see him gaining that fast after his first promotion.

And Saleh kicks Ross' ass. Ross never matches Saleh's 14AS until he's about 20/3, and generally he loses by a wide margin. 10/12 Pirate Ross loses speed by 4 to Saleh, and it increases if he uses any weapon heavier than Iron. Saleh generally has enough mt to 2HKO, comparable durability, better accuracy (especially at 2-range), a great Staff Rank, and more movement until promotion, and even after promotion he's better in desert.

Also, Ross is not 'contributing' before Saleh appears. He needs to be coddled a great deal initially, and even after first promotion is still super-mediocre.

[CT075]

I could stand for Ross being higher than Artur. When you get Artur, Ross should be around level -7 (3/0/0) reasonably. By then, Ross has contributed (a little, but its still something) to clearing chapters with chip damage. Actually, I don't think it's unreasonable to say that Ross is 5/0/0 when you get Artur. A 5/0/0 Ross doesn't do that badly against lolmonsters. Actually, IIRC he has better durablilty than Artur at this point in the game. IIRC this keeps up throughout the entire game. Artur does contribute slightly better chip damage, but once Ross promotes, he is just so much better. And Bishop isn't useful for a while.

[Anouleth]

I could stand for Ross being higher than Artur. When you get Artur, Ross should be around level -7 (3/0/0) reasonably. By then, Ross has contributed (a little, but its still something) to clearing chapters with chip damage. Actually, I don't think it's unreasonable to say that Ross is 5/0/0 when you get Artur. A 5/0/0 Ross doesn't do that badly against lolmonsters. Actually, IIRC he has better durablilty than Artur at this point in the game. IIRC this keeps up throughout the entire game. Artur does contribute slightly better chip damage, but once Ross promotes, he is just so much better. And Bishop isn't useful for a while.

Ross does not contribute anything to clearing C2 or C3. Seth can easily solo them, the only help he needs is some wall destruction in C3, which any idiot can do without batting an eyelid.

A level 3 Ross has half a chance of still being at 3AS. At level 4, it's 34%. At level 5, it's 24%. If he has 3AS, he doesn't double Revenants, and he won't 2-round them, meaning he has literally the worst performance on the entire team (since even Gilliam can 2HKO them iirc, and is more durable). Ross might double enemies in C5, but only the pathetic Soldiers (and he may not 1-round, I don't recall), and will be utterly awful against other enemies, while Artur's 8 or 9 AS doubles quite nicely. Ross may promote in C6... or he may not, depending on how much you've been shooting yourself in the leg to train him. If not, it's still a blowout for Artur, who probably has 9 AS by this point.

[Rewjeo]

And Gill has a reasonable chance, if he's gotten some levels, to double them. 51% with two levels.

[BBM]

Saleh will never match Joshua's speed. Does that mean Saleh will never double?

Sure, Ross' experience gains become normal after he becomes a Pirate. And yeah, he's still not awesome yet. But a level 12 Ross has 9 Speed. If he's given Amelia's Speedwing, he hits the magic 11 Speed. Isn't that the number Duessel needed to double 80% of the units when people started questioning his abilities to double? He goes back down to 9 AS if we give him a Hand Axe for 1-2 range, and drops to about 21 Mt if he still has the Hatchet, but he has something like 25 Mt with an Iron Axe, one less than Saleh with Elfire (12 AS), and 1 more than Saleh with Thunder (14 AS). If Saleh is ORKOing, Ross is too.

Does he deserve the Speedwing? I think so. Who else needs it? Garcia does, but are we really using him? He's a good early support for Ross, but Ross doesn't need the support later, and Garcia himself loses steam after a few chapters. Kyle might, but is probably fighting more if we're playing fairly efficiently, and is thus leveling up faster.

Also, 11 AS, if that's the correct number, is on HM. Probably lower on NM, for which this guide is written.

[Anouleth]

-Ross is still unlikely to even reach 10/12, unless we feel like playing slowly.

-Hatchet is unlikely to still exist, given that Ross is 100% dependent on it for a very long time.

-Duessel can take the Speedwing. Syrene can. Dozla can. Kyle can. Lute can. Even Saleh can. None of these characters have flawless speed, all are interested in increasing it. Apparently 'Garcia loses steam', so we can just assume he never ever exists (I guess), but Ross never really has steam to begin with, so should we assume we're not using him?

-Ross has awful hit with Hand Axes. Your precious 10/12 Ross has only 88HIT with a Hand Axe, which is less than perfect even if we want him to go kill Amelia. Saleh has 130 or 120 or 125, depending on what flavour of destruction he wants his enemies to taste. So even against some colossally annoying enemies like Baels on Peaks or Carlyle, he can still hit them.

-You casually assert that Ross with 25mt, 88hit, and 8AS has just as much ORKOing power as Saleh with 26mt, 125hit and 12AS. Now, I don't actually have enemy stats, but I find it highly unlikely that every enemy has 5 or less AS, or just as much defense as resistance, or carries a Lance and has 3 or less avoid, since in all of these cases, Saleh wins.

-You have not addressed the fact that Saleh wins movement, or that he has access to staves.

Edited June 20, 2010 by Slowking

[dondon151]

Ross does not really even win durability at that point. He has 31 HP, 9 def to Saleh's 30 HP, 8 def.

The Hatchet will most definitely still have uses left unless you feel like turtling through the chapters and using it at every opportunity. Even then, it requires extreme use as 50 uses will last you a long time. I don't believe this is really in Ross's favor anyway, however, as Hatchet only has a trifling 4 MT, or 21 atk at 10/12. In chapter 12 Eir, that doesn't even 2HKO gargoyles or tarvos, who hover around 28 HP, 9 def. Nor does it OHKO mogalls or mauthe doogs (in fact, it's borderline on revenants, who have 37 HP, 2 def).

Meanwhile, Saleh ORKOs every enemy in the chapter reliably at 1-2. Well, except for the entombed and the boss. He even OHKOs mauthe doogs.

Edited June 20, 2010 by dondon151

[Anouleth]

Actually, Saleh probably wins durability since he's not at danger of being doubled by faster enemies such as Rangers or Myrmidons, especially when switching to 1-2 range weaponry.

[Rewjeo]

Uhh, DEF/RES gap. Ross pulling similar ATK doesn't mean much when Saleh gets the advantage of hitting the (generally) weaker stat.

[BBM]

Would you like one character who doubles 95% of the time and another who doubles 50% of the time, or two who double 80% of the time? Those other guys all have better speed than him, except Dozla, who sucks more than Ross does.

Dozla base: 43 HP, 16 STR, 11 SKL, 9 SPD, 4 LUK, 11 DEF, 6 RES

Ross 10/10: 30 HP, 16 STR, 9 SKL, 8 SPD, 15 LUK, 8 DEF, 5 RES

Dozla blows Ross out of the water in HP, but other that, Ross isn't much worse than Dozla. That's fucking awful. Ross is ten levels lower and without promotion gains. While Luck is the least useful stat, Dozla gets criticaled a lot more than Ross. Ross probably never faces critical rates from enemies not wielding Killer weapons.

Sure Ross doesn't start off with steam, but he ends with it. It's the opposite with Garcia. I want to give my stat boosters to the guys who'll use it to become good, not to the guys who'll use it to stay average.

Sure, Saleh wins movement, until... Chapter 16? Let's see the chapters in the middle. Chapter 12 depends on your playing style, I suppose. I personally don't like to all out rush in this chapter, with the Gargoyles flying in and the narrow passages. It makes it harder to protect more fragile units. In Chapter 13, you probably want to end this chapter pretty quickly, right? Like, kill Aias on the turn you recruit Cormag, so the Cavalier reinforcements don't start getting in the way. But Aias isn't that far away, there's just a lot of units in the middle. Neither Ross nor Saleh have the durability to just wade in, so they're both just sniping from the back for a turn or two. Saleh is better at this, but movement itself isn't really needed. After that, they can both reach Aias. Chapter 14's tricky. It depends on which of the three routes you have them take. Chapter 15's a huge win for Saleh in the desert. Apart from Chapter 15, where's Saleh's movement really becoming such a huge deal?

Yeah, staves. You've got Moulder and Natasha for Staves, both of whom most likely have a higher Staff rank than him. At most, I guess he can heal, with his higher MAG, and they can use the utility staves. Your other magical units will promote soon enough and get them too, though. I guess that Saleh will have a higher Staff rank than them, but that's about it. It obviously doesn't hurt to have, and it is a big point in the favour of Saleh, but meh.

As for Ross getting doubled, umm... dunno how many Myrmidons there are, but up until Chapter 15, at least, there are only 3 Rangers. It's a possibility, sure.

I know that Saleh is better than Ross, but to say he kicks Ross' ass is a bit much, I think.

[dondon151]

Dozla blows Ross out of the water in HP, but other that, Ross isn't much worse than Dozla.

You must be kidding me. Dozla has 13 HP, 3 def, 1 res on Ross. Steel Lance gargoyles have 21 -1 atk (and there are a lot of them as unavoidable reinforcements in 12 Eir) and 3HKO 30 HP, 8 def but 5HKO 43 HP, 11 def. Mauthe doogs have a weak 13 atk but double both Dozla and Ross, for an 11RKO on the former but a 3RKO on the latter. 25 atk Sharp Claw Baels have 2HKO on Ross but only almost 3HKO Dozla (you'll never face more than 2 at once, though). 14 atk mogalls 4HKO Ross but 6HKO Dozla. Also, Dozla can walk onto a peak for 2 def, 40 avo bonus, which is ideal for soloing the gargoyle reinforcements. He is 8HKO'd by 21 -1 atk at 7 disp hit.

Sure Ross doesn't start off with steam, but he ends with it. It's the opposite with Garcia. I want to give my stat boosters to the guys who'll use it to become good, not to the guys who'll use it to stay average.

So when does Ross get good? He's terrible earlygame (and going by these comparisons, he's still doing poorly by midgame). By endgame, you have both Warp and a possible plethora of promoted mounted units plus fliers (Seth, Franz, Forde, Kyle, Boots Duessel, Vanessa, Tana, Cormag) who will absolutely dominate Ross with movement and/or terrain advantage.

Chapter 12 depends on your playing style, I suppose. I personally don't like to all out rush in this chapter, with the Gargoyles flying in and the narrow passages. It makes it harder to protect more fragile units.

That's why you don't deploy them. Do not deploy healers, archers, or mages in this map (unless they are Saleh or Innes). It is impossible to clear this map in 8 turns (or less) if Moulder and/or Natasha cannot even make it out of the south part of the path before the reinforcements show up.

Chapter 14's tricky. It depends on which of the three routes you have them take.

It's a beeline to the seize, right? In that case, Saleh's reliable 2 range and +1 move give him an advantage when positioning, as it's likely that both of them will primarily be rescue-dropped as the primary form of movement.

Chapter 15's a huge win for Saleh in the desert. Apart from Chapter 15, where's Saleh's movement really becoming such a huge deal?

This is a huge deal. Like, Saleh outranges everything but WKs and can ORKO them before they get a chance to attack him. He also doesn't have a problem surviving 2 hits.

Yeah, staves. You've got Moulder and Natasha for Staves, both of whom most likely have a higher Staff rank than him. At most, I guess he can heal, with his higher MAG, and they can use the utility staves. Your other magical units will promote soon enough and get them too, though. I guess that Saleh will have a higher Staff rank than them, but that's about it. It obviously doesn't hurt to have, and it is a big point in the favour of Saleh, but meh.

Saleh has access to Barrier. This is important because it is the single most easily spammed staff of lowest weapon rank (there is also Torch, but that is limited to chapter 11 Eir or chapter 11 Eph). Of Saleh, Moulder, and Natasha, Saleh's mag average is the highest of the 3 of them, making him the best candidate to use B rank status staves, Physic, and Rescue or A rank Warp (since this tier list's efficiency goals are nebulous, A staves is certainly possible for Saleh). Your other promoted staff users sans Artur are mostly limited to healing scratches, and in my playthrough Knoll did not gain a single point of staff WEXP after promoting to summoner because there was absolutely no need for him to heal at all when Saleh, Moulder, and Natasha did it better with Physic.

Edited June 20, 2010 by dondon151

[BBM]

Ross can't be Warped in endgame? He's generally one of the best units by then, if we go just by combat skills.

However, I see your point. What do you suggest Ross should get? 6?

[dondon151]

Ross can't be Warped in endgame? He's generally one of the best units by then, if we go just by combat skills.

That was not my point. Since you have so many high move units and a way to teleport around the map, Ross's performance in endgame is trivial because there are fewer turns that he has to perform. You could warp him, but what's the point in that? You're not going to save any turns by him doing bosskilling instead of someone else because I've showed that Duessel, Seth, Saleh, and Ephraim are all capable of 2RKOs of endgame bosses, and if Ross were able to ORKO, he wouldn't save any turns.

However, I see your point. What do you suggest Ross should get? 6?

Well, my opinion is skewed by an aggressive playstyle that renders Ross useless. But if you're curious, I think he deserves 2/10.

[Integrity]

Well, I totally didn't parse most of the Ross debate and we're close enough that I don't really care about moving him from his happy place wherever I stuck him. Plus, I've finally got time to get my projects back on track, starting with this one!

MOULDER

Feel free to read only the bolded parts for this one if you want.

Fox Moulder is a healer. He arrives several chapters earlier than Natasha but doesn't have as great a promoted game. Both are outclassed by your various other Mages in the endgame anyway. Therefore, Moulder's advantage over Natasha is healing in a few chapters where healing isn't particularly necessary. He is also a pretty cool guy that doesn't afraid of anything.

7.5

-

VANESSA

Vanessa is an interesting case. Her most comparable competition is Tana, who arrives HALF THE GAME LATER, and yet this availability advantage doesn't really help Vanessa too much.

This is because Vanessa has, across the board, unremarkable growths. She arrives at level 1, in chapter 1, when you're staring down the black maw of training Franz and your choice of (Ross, Lute, Artur, Colm, Neimi?) Add that to the fact that Vanessa's first three or four chapters see a grand total of maybe two enemies who DON'T use Axes (on a fragile unit locked to Lances) and there's a problem starting to manifest. After that, her unremarkable growths and level-1 bases start to kick in and she falls behind without terribly much incentive to raise her. Her supports, even, are all slow and not likely to be used even if they build, given that she's a flier.

Honestly, though, that last paragraph isn't really fair to the girl. She's not a bad unit, per se - and Tana certainly isn't an incredible unit to be besting her - but her early game, where she shines over Tana because Tana doesn't exist yet, isn't very good. She's just...unremarkable and I really can't think of too much else to say. Her saving grace is she's an unremarkable unit with Flier utility, which helps her case somewhat.

That in mind, I'm going to go ahead and accept the mediocre write-up because I don't have much to say about her and just give her a

7.0

EDIT: Vanessa's up a point.

Edited July 19, 2010 by Integrity

[dondon151]

Vanessa is about 3 points too low.

[Integrity]

Vanessa for a 9?

I'm rather biased towards her, but care to elaborate? I'm trying to keep some logic.

[dondon151]

She helps you save turns, and she doesn't even have to fight. Refer to 0% playthrough videos.