Villain?

[Dr. Tarrasque]

wasn't yurius the incarnation of the dark god loputousu?

And you remember what levin said when conquering yied shrine?

Lopto wasn't worshipped by most of the continent though.

[Narga_Rocks]

God that everyone worshipped, dude. Besides, Julius was an incarnation, Ashera's an actual Goddess.

so then does that mean you liked the villains of Tales of symphonia?

[BEST TRYNDAMERE PLAYER]

so then does that mean you liked the villains of Tales of symphonia?

Never played ToS.

[Narga_Rocks]

Never played ToS.

deprived

Just kidding.

Anyway, what about FFX, then? I've never played it, but from what I've heard it goes something along those lines, right? Main enemy related to the religion of the world?

[Nightmare]

[...] the Senators struck me as ass-faced douchebags you just wanna kill over and over again.

Isn't that what makes a good villain, though? I really think that villains should be characters you actually hate, or love to hate, or go "Good God, this guy is evil!" or anything along those lines. This is why Dio Brando is one of the greatest villains of all time (specifically in arc 1) because everything he does makes you loathe him, and loathe him very, very much, even though you do develop a certain liking/respect for how well of a villain he is. And for this reason I think that sympathetic villains are, more often than not, stupid.

Edited April 19, 2010 by Robin Mask

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Isn't that what makes a good villain, though? I really think that villains should be characters you actually hate, or love to hate, or go "Good God, this guy is evil!" or anything along those lines. This is why Dio Brando is one of the greatest villains of all time (specifically in arc 1) because everything he does makes you loathe him, and loathe him very, very much, even though you do develop a certain liking/respect for how well of a villain he is. And for this reason I think that sympathetic villains are, more often than not, stupid.

The senators lacked this. Valtome seemed more like a spoiled brat than a villain on the level of Dio and Cars from JJBA.

[Nightmare]

Yeah, but what really matters here is that they still managed to stir things up, manipulate all the races in the world into believing lies and acting upon those lies, all while merrily eating and drinking in their giant mansions, and everyone hates them for it. I think, as villains, they accomplished a lot here, even if you don't have respect/admiration for how they did what they did (which you shouldn't, because if you knew such people in real life you wouldn't like them for ruining lives and stirring up other mischief across the world). The spoiled brat dimension gives you even more to hate, like he's just a person with no real talent or anything, he just has power and he's using it as he sees fit. Like giving a kid the keys to a nuclear silo, or something.

That's how I look at it, anyway.

Edited April 19, 2010 by Robin Mask

[Fireman]

I’m asking FE9 for my birthday. But from what I’ve heard it’s just Ike going against this bad guy that wants to conquer the continent. Like FE7, but different.

Boiled down, yes. Ashnard simply wants to conquer the continent. But there's a bit more to it than that.

Ashnard is a hardcore believer in "survival of the fittest." His goal was a pure, chaotic world where only the fittest survive. Like King Charles pretended to be in Code Geass. Well, personally, that just seems like "I WANT TO BLOW UP THE WORLD FOR NOT MUCH REASON" just dressed up in some fancy dressing as to not make it as obvious, but to each one's own...

[Anouleth]

Hetzel? Maybe Micaiah. What a mean person. That war. But she did have her reasons, however badly thought out they may have been. (hence, sympathetic)

Lessee: a few people dying every day or thousands dying in a war as well as others on the other side. Oh I know! Let's fight a war. That's a much better long-term strategy. Doof.

...sigh...

Why not just talk to Ike and storm Begnion together? Far fewer of yours will die. I suppose civilians dying vs. soldiers dying and all, but I don't like that attitude anyway.

Or maybe:

Pelleas

The curse on the blood pact will begin killing our people as soon as we do anything the senate doesn't care for. Defeating the senate doesn't guarantee the curse will be broken either. In fact, it may ensure it can never be broken. In which case, Daein's destruction will come more slowly, but it will come nonetheless.

Tauroneo

Attacking the senate is not an option for us. If it were, we would have marched against them when this all started. If we were to side with Ike, the senate would use the curse against us. The death of the senate will not stop the curse.

They didn't understand that they needed to destroy the contract initially. They could have taken advantage of the Sanaki loophole, but they definitely wouldn't have known about that. So until 3-E, they don't even know how to break the blood contract.

Almedha

In order to break the curse of the blood pact, two conditions must be met. The destruction of the document itself, and the death of the one bound to it. Either condition by itself is not enough. I watched it happen. Ashnard killed his father, then tore apart the pact. And before my eyes, the mark of the pact faded from the dead king's arm

Almedha

Yes! Ashnard once told me he'd considered killing the man who created his father's blood pact instead! I didn't know why until now... This means that we could kill the senator who signed the pact instead of Pelleas!

Micaiah

It's possible, but very difficult. We'll need not only to hunt down the senator, but find the document, with no idea where to start. Daein could be annihilated in the time it would take to look.

They considered the possibility, but Begnion is a massive country, with many places for a senator and a contract to hide.

So the complaints that Micaiah should have sided with Ike and the Laguz Alliance are incorrect - she does not even know how to break the pact until the opening of 3-E, and even then she has no assurance that they could break the pact in time, and all of this is mentioned and explained.

[Narga_Rocks]

They could have tried.

By the way, when do they figure out to destroy the contract anyway? Was there someone that said all they had to do was whatever they did in 4-E-1?

[Fireman]

They could have tried.

By the way, when do they figure out to destroy the contract anyway? Was there someone that said all they had to do was whatever they did in 4-E-1?

I believe it was in the Part 3 Endgame, where they got Almedha to fess up that killing Pelleas would end the contract. (Which they later figured out was partially incorrect, as Lekain--and thus, both contract signers-- had to be killed as well.)

[Nightmare]

Actually, Pelleas said it would end the contract if someone killed him, but Almedha said that the contract also needs to be destroyed, and, if I'm not wrong, it's enough to just kill one side of it.

[Narga_Rocks]

I believe it was in the Part 3 Endgame, where they got Almedha to fess up that killing Pelleas would end the contract. (Which they later figured out was partially incorrect, as Lekain--and thus, both contract signers-- had to be killed as well.)

Huh? Almedha talked about killing Pelleas in chapter 3-11 and it turned out to be wrong. You can get Lekain dead and break the contract and it's fine. I don't remember so I'd have to guess maybe Kurth or Naesala says something. However, what I really think is they just decided "hey, maybe this will work" and came up with that out of nowhere.

Oh, @Anouleth, I don't think talking to sanaki would work or they'd have done that in 4-P. Naesala's was probably with Begnion, and thus the empress supercedes the will of the senate. But I think Pelleas' was with the senators themselves or something.

Edited April 19, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Fireman]

Actually, Pelleas said it would end the contract if someone killed him, but Almedha said that the contract also needs to be destroyed, and, if I'm not wrong, it's enough to just kill one side of it.

Oh...right. Now my memory cues are functioning. Pelleas did research. Thought killing himself would work. It was only after he died did Micaiah and co. actually think about breaking the contract and they went to Almedha and the rest is history...

[Narga_Rocks]

Oh...right. Now my memory cues are functioning. Pelleas did research. Thought killing himself would work. It was only after he died did Micaiah and co. actually think about breaking the contract and they went to Almedha and the rest is history...

Except that doesn't explain how they clued in when he doesn't die. I wish I remembered because I know I read it first time through I could let him live. Ah well.

[Nightmare]

Clued in? You mean how they found out it didn't work? Because the pact mark on Pelleas' arm didn't disappear, if that's what you meant.

[Narga_Rocks]

Clued in? You mean how they found out it didn't work? Because the pact mark on Pelleas' arm didn't disappear, if that's what you meant.

What the hell? Does everyone forget that you can keep Pelleas alive? I've said it like 3 times.

Don't kill Pelleas. Then they never see that killing him doesn't work. Why not? Because he's NOT DEAD. They can't just see that the pact mark doesn't disappear because he's still alive so of course it doesn't disappear. As far as they should be concerned, killing him may still work.

sigh.

Okay, let's try this again. When Pelleas lives, what happens in the story for them figuring out the proper way to end the blood pact? Depending on what happens, why couldn't they decide that using their brains earlier is a better idea than going to war and thus figure it out earlier and then team up with Ike and storm Begnion? It's only the laguz army + the group that beat Daein the first time around. Don't think maybe they could help you get to the senator?

[Nightmare]

Well, they say that the risk is too great and if the Senators find out that they couldn't stop the Apostle's Army, or if they find out that they asked for their help/made peace with them, then they would invoke the curse. So when you decide to not kill Pelleas, asking for help (or whatever) not being a choice, they think and think and think until they remember that Almedha seemed to know something about these pacts. So they ask her and she recites Ashnard's tale.

Edited April 19, 2010 by Robin Mask

[Narga_Rocks]

Well, they say that the risk is too great and if the Senators find out that they couldn't stop the Apostle's Army, or if they find out that they asked for their help/made peace with them, then they would invoke the curse. So when you decide to not kill Pelleas, asking for help (or whatever) not being a choice, they think and think and think until they remember that Almedha seemed to know something about these pacts. So they ask her and she recites Ashnard's tale.

And I think they should have pulled a Jack Bauer on (Tony) Almedha the moment it was obvious she was hiding something. That's just me, though. What's the rate of the curse, anyway? Was it a "double every day" thing, which would pretty much wipe them out in two to three weeks (2⁰ for day 1, 2¹³ for day 14, which is more like 2¹³ + 2¹² + ... + 1 = 2¹⁴ - 1 = 16383 dead in 2 weeks. 21 days is 2²¹ - 1 > 2 million dead in 21 days).

If it wasn't as harsh as that, it would take very long before the death toll is worse than war and thus they should just try to figure it out. Oh well.

(eg: if it's a 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, ... type of thing then that takes a long time to get up there. 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 = 10 = 5 x 4 / 2 = 5 choose 2.

21 days is 22 x 21 / 2 = only 231 dead in three weeks. That's like 10 minutes of a large-scale battle. )

Edited April 19, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Nightmare]

The deaths just seemed to increase rapidly, according to Lekain's story of that other king who signed the pact (previous king of Kilvas?). So rapidly that the king practically begged the senate to stop it. So it was probably doubled every day or something.

[whase]

And I think they should have pulled a Jack Bauer on (Tony) Almedha the moment it was obvious she was hiding something. That's just me, though. What's the rate of the curse, anyway? Was it a "double every day" thing, which would pretty much wipe them out in two to three weeks (2⁰ for day 1, 2¹³ for day 14, which is more like 2¹³ + 2¹² + ... + 1 = 2¹⁴ - 1 = 16383 dead in 2 weeks. 21 days is 2²¹ - 1 > 2 million dead in 21 days).

If it wasn't as harsh as that, it would take very long before the death toll is worse than war and thus they should just try to figure it out. Oh well.

(eg: if it's a 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, ... type of thing then that takes a long time to get up there. 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 = 10 = 5 x 4 / 2 = 5 choose 2.

21 days is 22 x 21 / 2 = only 231 dead in three weeks. That's like 10 minutes of a large-scale battle. )

if I remember correctly, the second one is right. but did anyone think about this, they don't know Lekain carries the pact with him. For all they know, he could have hidden it somewhere. Searching every house and every bush on the continent might take a little longer then 3 weeks. I'm thinking more about years, now calculate that...

[Narga_Rocks]

if I remember correctly, the second one is right. but did anyone think about this, they don't know Lekain carries the pact with him. For all they know, he could have hidden it somewhere. Searching every house and every bush on the continent might take a little longer then 3 weeks. I'm thinking more about years, now calculate that...

1000 days. 1001 x 1000 / 2 = 500500 dead in 1000 days. That's around 2.7 years. Also, pull a Jack Bauer on Lekain. You don't have to simply kill him when you find him. "WHERE DID YOU PUT THE PACT?!?! TELL ME WHERE OR I ...(some horrible atrocity to be committed on Lekain's family members)"

But yeah, I suppose if it takes 2.7 years then that is a lot of dead. No idea how many soldiers would die in the war. I mean, medieval times had armies usually in the tens of thousands not hundreds of thousands, right? 300 days already sees 45150 people die.

(Looking at the first scenario after 300 days, with 2³⁰⁰ - 1 people dying in 300 days they'd need to have (I think) more people than atoms in the observable universe to have anyone left alive. Wikipedia says 8 x 10⁸⁰ for atoms. 2³⁰⁰ is more than a billion times that number.)

Edited April 19, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[whase]

1000 days. 1001 x 1000 / 2 = 500500 dead in 1000 days. That's around 2.7 years. Also, pull a Jack Bauer on Lekain. You don't have to simply kill him when you find him. "WHERE DID YOU PUT THE PACT?!?! TELL ME WHERE OR I ...(some horrible atrocity to be committed on Lekain's family members)"

But yeah, I suppose if it takes 2.7 years then that is a lot of dead. No idea how many soldiers would die in the war. I mean, medieval times had armies usually in the tens of thousands not hundreds of thousands, right? 300 days already sees 45150 people die.

(Looking at the first scenario after 300 days, with 2³⁰⁰ - 1 people dying in 300 days they'd need to have (I think) more people than atoms in the observable universe to have anyone left alive. Wikipedia says 8 x 10⁸⁰ for atoms. 2³⁰⁰ is more than a billion times that number.)

Lekain has family? Lekain has family he likes? And don't forget the chance they can't find it. (who knows, maybe Lekain has his own island nobody knows about for his holidays?)

[Narga_Rocks]

Lekain has family? Lekain has family he likes? And don't forget the chance they can't find it. (who knows, maybe Lekain has his own island nobody knows about for his holidays?)

It would kinda suck if they went to all the trouble to storm Begnion, kill/arrest all the senators, release sanaki from the house arrest or whatever she was under during most of part 3, all to find out that Lekain was on vacation that week and nobody knows precisely where he went on vacation. Unfortunately, you just know word will get to him somehow and so he spends the rest of his life on an island paradise.

If you'd just waited 4 days to invade Begnion then Lekain would have been there. Oops.

Well, you can interrogate any servants of his or any ship captains that may have gone to his island paradise in the past, but it could take months to torture nicely ask the right person.

Edited April 19, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[whase]

It would kinda suck if they went to all the trouble to storm Begnion, kill/arrest all the senators, release sanaki from the house arrest or whatever she was under during most of part 3, all to find out that Lekain was on vacation that week and nobody knows precisely where he went on vacation. Unfortunately, you just know word will get to him somehow and so he spends the rest of his life on an island paradise.

If you'd just waited 4 days to invade Begnion then Lekain would have been there. Oops.

Well, you can interrogate any servants of his or any ship captains that may have gone to his island paradise in the past, but it could take months to torture nicely ask the right person.

Lekain is lazy, he wouldn't take hours going by ship, he'd use his teleport staff. which is another problem, as soon as Lekain sees trouble, he's out of there. only with a goddess on his side he dares to fight~