Slize's Character Ranking/Balancing Topic

[Rewjeo]

It doesn't matter as much if a unit is bad at the end because all of our other units are ridiculous. I'm not losing much by deploying him there and gain quite a bit by deploying him early on. That's worth at least a 6.5, not a 5.5.

[Parrhesia]

So, if you are concerned about his early power, why are you halving his already pathetic speed growth? It's not like he's gonna fulfil a different role mid/lategame than before.

[Integrity]

That's worth at least a 6.5, not a 5.5.

I gave him a 6.5, actually. :D

Either way, I said at the beginning that 7.0 was a decent enough score, if maybe a little high. All I was arguing was factual inaccuracies: he doesn't double.

[Rewjeo]

So, if you are concerned about his early power, why are you halving his already pathetic speed growth? It's not like he's gonna fulfil a different role mid/lategame than before.

It'll cut into the time he's viable and he'll be even more hardpressed to find a situation where he's at all helpful lategame.

He still doubles a fair amount, as the ranking says. It's stuff that most people/everyone doubles, but it's still a fair amount, and he does more damage to them than some. Especially knights.

Meh, .5 margin of error.

[Anouleth]

Well, he's not so bad in lategame. I mean, compare him to Gilliam, who you gave a 6:

Garcia, level 10/5, Hero, A Ross

40HP 9 or 10DEF 4 or 5RES 44AVO

w/Killer Axe

30mt 11AS 114HIT 56CRIT

w/Hand Axe

26mt 11AS 109HIT 26CRIT

w/Killing Edge

28mt 11AS 119HIT 21CRIT

w/Garm

39mt 16AS 124HIT 26CRIT

Gilliam, level 10/6, Great Knight, B Moulder

38HP 19DEF 8RES 32AVO

w/Killer Lance

25mt 8AS 100HIT 40CRIT

w/Javelin

21mt 8AS 95HIT 10CRIT

w/Steel Axe

26mt 8AS 90HIT 5CRIT

w/Vidofnir (+5DEF)

30mt 8AS 115HIT 10CRIT

As you can see, Garcia is tearing him apart. Not only does Garcia have better movement in the desert, but he also had better movement before promotion, a better earlygame due to doubling and ORKOing, he has better accuracy, crit, damage, even better WTC because he can access Lancereavers instantly. And a far superior S Rank weapon. I find it quite funny that even with an S Rank weapon, Gilliam is barely matching Garcia's attack with a Killer Axe and very far behind in crit. And all those speed issues? Gilliam is even worse. Garcia can at least double some enemies with Garm (and he OHKOes a lot anyway).

Only issue is durability. But with a Lancereaver, Garcia has an effective 74 avoid against lance users, and he can also take advantage of terrain, so his poor defense isn't that big a deal.

Not that I think Garcia should be higher. It's Gilliam that needs to be lower :D

Edited August 20, 2010 by Anouleth

[Rewjeo]

Yeah, I'm gonna drop Gill to a 5. Although either of them having those supports is questionable at best.

Although, why is Gilliam a higher level than Garcia? He'll have no more than a single level lead on Garcia when he joins, and from there Garcia will grow faster. I can see him easily being more like 14/6 at endgame.

[Integrity]

Gilliam won't even have a level lead on Garcia. He can - assuming zero Seth use - take roughly two loldier kills that Franz is too busy to finish and Eirika is too busy to finish.

Hell, to get Gills a level before Garcia joins, you'd basically have to feed him half of Chapter 1.

[Rewjeo]

And then Garcia will proceed to gain EXP faster from there. Much faster.

Dropped Gill to a 5. Thought I said this last night, but apparently not.

[Parrhesia]

Dropped Gill to a 5. Thought I said this last night, but apparently not.

Yeah, I'm gonna drop Gill to a 5. Although either of them having those supports is questionable at best.

You said it, but possibly forgot to make the edit.

[Rewjeo]

I remembered making that post, but was 99% positive that when I checked again it wasn't there...

Neimi

Ah, Neimi. Our mandatory archer. And what a crappy game to be an archer in. First off, let's take a look at her base performance. Just for fun, I'll compare her to Ross.

Ross/Neimi

9 MT/10 MT

93 HIT/ 97HIT

3 AS/6 AS

Well, she's marginally better, I guess. 1 MT and 4 HIT. Nothing so far is doubled by her. So, she starts out performing similarly to ROSS, and we know how awesome he is at the start. But then, he grows 3x faster and can get an enemy phase reasonably quickly. She, however, requires us to get her to at least level 10 before she can promote and get an enemy phase. And that's pretty slow. If she were to get one level per chapter, she'd be promoting at the end of 12 or start of 13. She can probably grab a chapter or two earlier. What does that give us?

10/1 Neimi Killer Bow/Steel Sword B Colm

HP: 23.95

ATK: 21.05/20.05

HIT: 106-108

CRIT: 41/11

DEF: 8.35

RES: 9.15

AVO: 34.5/30.5

CEV: 8.5

AS: 12.4/10.4

Well, her tanking abilities certainly aren't particularly strong. It only takes 16 ATK to 3HKO, and if they have 7-8 AS, she needs an Iron Sword, giving her 18 ATK. 26 HP/6 DEF survives two hits there. If they have 9+, she can take her Steel Sword for 21 ATK, but then isn't doubling. If they have 6- AS, then she's probably doing nothing more than anyone else because this range will likely consist of loldiers and revenants, who everyone ORKOS, and knights, who she won't do much damage to.

Player Phase, anything she 4HKOs or less that she doubles has a >50% chance of being killed, but then she has no enemy phase, and that's not exactly a reliable player phase. Maybe helpful sometimes, but not consistent. But, wait, what if she's out of Colm's range for supports? Well, there goes 1 DEF and 2 ATK, amongst small HIT/AVO/CRIT bonuses. Great. See, she's got the advantage of having a fast support, but it just so happens to be with a thief who will not always be with the main group.

But she has Nidhogg access, right? Well, not really. Innes will average both more speed and strength than her unless she gets ridiculous favoritism, meaning she isn't even your best candidate. So, awful earlygame, poor midgame, poor lategame...

3/10

Balancing

12 base STR/SKL/SPD. However, in exchange, she has 14 base HP with a 30% growth and 1 DEF/RES with a 10% growth for each. That way she'll have a kick-butt player phase, at least at fist, but won't ever become an enemy phase god.

Edited August 22, 2010 by Rewjeo

[Parrhesia]

Also, her personality. I know you've suffered a lot, generic bandit-griefed orphan, but STOP GODDAMN CRYING. THE BLUE DUDE WITH THE IRISH NAME KNOWS BEST.

Apart from that, you did a pretty thorough (and accurate) dressing-down. Looking forward to seeing how she can be salvaged.

Edited August 22, 2010 by Agent Dale Cooper

[Integrity]

Eh. Early joining Archer. What can I say?

[Rewjeo]

Added balancing and tweaked some wording in the ranking.

[Parrhesia]

12/12/12 IS TOO MUCH. SHE IS LEVEL ONE. LEVEL. ONE. THE FIRST LEVEL. Hell, SETH is something like 14/13/12, so...no. Just...no.

NEVER.

It's not going to happen.

Not with 12 strength that always doubles non-swords.

[Rewjeo]

She's also player phase only forever. 27.4 HP 7.8 DEF/RES at 20/20 means lololololol@her durability. More like 10/10 for endgame at best, meaning 8.8 DEF/RES with A Colm, 'fortified' by 21.4 HP. That means she's killing one per turn, maybe one on enemy phase eventually, while other units are killing one starting turn 2 and weakening during enemy phase at the beginning, and killing one on player phase and a bunch on enemy phase later. Giving her humongous offense is the only way I really see her doing anything very helpful.

Edited August 23, 2010 by Rewjeo

[dondon151]

Also consider that she's never, ever surviving a Shadowshot.

[IntegerZero]

Exactly, though personally I think she could use a slight HP growth buff. SO by Endgame, she is 2, maybe 3HKOed. Still not LOL Seth or Franz durability, but on par with most mages.

[Rewjeo]

Okay, so, having gone on vacation, done a play, and gotten a new computer, I'm back! So, Colm's next? Thief reviews are so boring...

Colm

So, Colm here's our only thief for most of the game. What does that mean? Well, ignoring the less important items like vulneraries and basic equipment from chests, he gets us a ridiculous amount of stuff. Unique/rare weapons, promotion items, stat boosters, the stuff hidden in the desert, and tons of gold. The number of turns he saves with that alone is amazing- he funds your army, gets them some nice equipment for free, allows you to promote people earlier and without paying, and boosts their performance. Plus he's got FOW vision!

3: chests

6: FoW

8: Lots of yummy treasure.

9B: Chests!

11A: Chests

11B: FoW, I think...

14: Lots o' treasure!

15: Silver Card, Warp, etc.

16: Chests.

19: Chests and FoW.

20/Endgame: Some chests, but at this point, who cares?

But, oh wait, there's torches and keys you can slap on a cavalier/peg, and there ya go, he's largely replaced as far as chests go AND this person does it better. He's still got stealing and desert stuff, though.

Now, combat-wise he's not AWFUL, comparable to Eirika, except without being forced or having a horse on promotion or the rapier. If you want to use him for combat, it's not hard, but it won't ever help with turns.

Supports. Well, he's got a hilariously fast one with Neimi, but when she scores a 3... Besides that, he's got really slow supports (~40 turns per support level) with a healer, a mounted guy, an absolutely awful unit, and someone who joins in for the last quarter of the game.

7.5/10

Balancing

Ah, yes. Utility units. No matter what you do, they're good. I'll just say 0% growths since it means he at least needs a bodyguard sometimes and has no combat value at all. Makes him more likely to be replaced, as well.

Edited December 13, 2010 by Rewjeo

[Parrhesia]

...0% growths means that he's gonna get mugged by everything and lose the ability to steal competently eventually, and mercs/myrms very early.

[Tables]

Yeah. I'd drop his STR, DEF, RES, HP and SKL growths a few notches, but keep his SPD and LUK growths where they are. Maybe also lower his bases a touch, nothing too much. You want him to still be able to gain levels, and notably gain speed, but be a bit of a liability in heavy combat.

[dondon151]

Quite honestly I think Colm's combat is worthless regardless of growths, but whatever.

[Salad Utensil]

I wonder how much controversy will be generated when Lute's ranking gets done :)

[Anouleth]

You do realise that Chest Keys can cover every item in the game except some useless weapons in Chapter 3, right? And that Torch staves exist forever? So much of Colm's so-called utility isn't actually that useful.

(I remember someone posting a tier list on GFAQs that had Colm above Seth. :facepalm: :facepalm: )

[Salad Utensil]

You do realise that Chest Keys can cover every item in the game except some useless weapons in Chapter 3, right? And that Torch staves exist forever? So much of Colm's so-called utility isn't actually that useful.

(I remember someone posting a tier list on GFAQs that had Colm above Seth. :facepalm: :facepalm: )

You still need Colm for the chests in chapter 8 though...

[Anouleth]

No, you don't. Get a Chest Key in Chapter 3, and don't use it until Chapter 8. You miss out on what, a Javelin and a Hand Axe? That's it.