Soren...

[Fenrir]

i've played through RD four times and 3 of the four times i've used soren,and hes been in my top 5 in all playthroughs ive used him, i just dont get why no one ever talks about him, hes got a good affinity and good caps and growths. i support him with ike and they're both unhittable and ive taken down stages with the two of them(oliver mansion like twice.) basically him and ike are unstoppable together because they cant be hit and ranging doesnt bother them once ike gets ragnell, yet i never hear any one talking about soren.

THIS THREAD CONTAINS SPOILERS!

Edited May 28, 2010 by King Soren

[Krad]

He's not very good. Dark affinity is cool, sure. His caps being good? Not really. 23 and 32 SPD caps means he can't double much, and even then his SPD growth is a at 35%, coupled with his 18 SPD base means he will never double reliably. His durability isn't good either with 28 HP/9 DEF along with 40%/25% growths in those stats, so while Ike can go solo and take many enemy attacks, Soren will most likely die after 2 hits, and sometimes 3 against a few weak enemies.

And by using the Ike/Soren combo in 4-4 does it mean that you soloed it with only those two? Well, that must be painful turncount-wise.

[Fenrir]

his starting stats may not be good and maybye you need to focus on him some, but you have to put effort in training anyone take away a few characters, and once hes 20/20/1 his durability is fine and you can easily get him there by 3-11

[-Cynthia-]

Perhaps you play NM? In HM, Soren's issues are far more troublesome.

[Fenrir]

yeah that would explain alot, im doing my first HM playthrough now, only cause i liked battle save and had enough one turn away and then someone dies for a long time after PoR

[Parrhesia]

i've played through RD four times and 3 of the four times i've used soren,and hes been in my top 5 in all playthroughs ive used him, i just dont get why no one ever talks about him, hes got a good affinity and good caps and growths. i support him with ike and they're both unhittable and ive taken down stages with the two of them(oliver mansion like twice.) basically him and ike are unstoppable together because they cant be hit and ranging doesnt bother them once ike gets ragnell, yet i never hear any one talking about soren.

Mmm. Let's get the inevitable out of the way.

Personal Experience Means Nothing.

[RNG Princess]

I only use Soren for a little bit of chapters the mages I like to use the most are Ilyana, Pelleas and Tormod.

[Narga_Rocks]

Mmm. Let's get the inevitable out of the way.

Personal Experience Means Nothing.

Except the first responders decided to be more informative and say why Soren has issues rather than just say "PEMN" in response to his experience.

Anyway, yeah, horrible time doubling. And that "you have to put effort in training anyone" bit isn't really true. I'll grant you said there are exceptions, but unfortunately for Soren there are enough exceptions to build an entire team. Probably even two teams.

Ike, Haar, Mia, Titania, Nephenee, Shinon, Ulki, Janaff. All units that take minimal to no work to be great (Gatrie actually takes work to get to 23 spd for crowning). I'll grant that many of them require intelligent choices, but that's all. Soren isn't going to be doing much offensively unless you stuff him full of the first two speedwings in the game and follow it up by giving him the first crown you receive. Even then you are only solving his offensive issues (and only temporarily: enemy spd spikes in part 4 on HM and he'll start failing again). He'll still be 2HKOd by nearly everything and Ike support won't give him enough avo to not worry. Also, it still takes a while to build that support anyway.

Actually, even on NM that 23 spd cap in tier 2 should be failing you pretty early in part 3. And if you are promoting him in 3-11 (good luck with that on HM if you are trying to boost his spd through bexp without paying out your ear for it) on NM then he's not getting past that cap until then. Even if he was great in part 4 (and other combinations with Ike wil be better there anyway, trust me) it wouldn't be worth the time it takes when you can create Mia x Ike and they'll be a great team the moment they hit B support (which is much earlier than Soren's prime time).

Oh, and you didn't answer the 4-4 turncount question. Lots of us here like saying unit A is "better" than unit B if unit A helps get a lower turncount than unit B. That's why a bunch of us aren't talking about him. What was your NM turncount in 4-4 where you had the Soren x Ike team? And how were your turncounts in part 3 while Soren was receiving the "effort" of your training?

[Fenrir]

Ike, Haar, Mia, Titania, Nephenee, Shinon, Ulki, Janaff. All units that take minimal to no work to be great (Gatrie actually takes work to get to 23 spd for crowning). I'll grant that many of them require intelligent choices, but that's all. Soren isn't going to be doing much offensively unless you stuff him full of the first two speedwings in the game and follow it up by giving him the first crown you receive. Even then you are only solving his offensive issues (and only temporarily: enemy spd spikes in part 4 on HM and he'll start failing again). He'll still be 2HKOd by nearly everything and Ike support won't give him enough avo to not worry. Also, it still takes a while to build that support anyway.

i'll give you Ike, haar, titan, shinon, and the hawks but nephenee, she takes much babying to be a good character and if your saying gatrie take less work than mia? but what your saying about soren I cant really argue with because im on my first HM playthrough at 1-E

[Loki Laufeyson]

Perhaps you play NM? In HM, Soren's issues are far more troublesome.

Id imagine so. Many characters would suffer in HM. Im not a HM player so i wouldnt be able to tell you.

Personally, i choose Soren over any mage in that game. Ilyana just doesnt ever work out. If Soren has trouble doubling, Ilyana just suffers terribly. She never doubles after a certain point. Soren with transfers does ok on EM or NM. I usually abuse the hell out of him and give him some BEXP so he gets closer to promotion. Ive never had to solo Soren for him to get anywhere. I have had him support with Ike all the time for that +30 to avoid. Plus Daunt. :) Id imagine this couldnt be really done in HM without sacrificing a lot of other characters that would be a better choice however.

[Narga_Rocks]

i'll give you Ike, haar, titan, shinon, and the hawks but nephenee, she takes much babying to be a good character and if your saying gatrie take less work than mia?

bexp for Neph in 2-E and she's good to go. All she needs is enough spd to double stuff and a few levels in part 2 + some bexp in 2-E and Neph will have that spd. Granted she won't be as good as the others, but she'll still be better than Soren which is all that matters for this convo. Neph's work is in part 2 so it doesn't conflict with Soren at all.

Anyway, are you trying to say Gatrie takes more or less work than Mia? I say Gatrie takes more work than Mia. Mia needs Adept and she's fine offensively. Making an Ike support is technically work, but I think that's less effort than getting Gatrie to start doubling.

[Fenrir]

Ive never had to solo Soren for him to get anywhere. I have had him support with Ike all the time for that +30 to avoid. Plus Daunt. :)

heck yeah with the daunt!

Anyway, are you trying to say Gatrie takes more or less work than Mia? I say Gatrie takes more work than Mia. Mia needs Adept and she's fine offensively. Making an Ike support is technically work, but I think that's less effort than getting Gatrie to start doubling.

gatrie doesnt even need to double first few chapters and its almost better he doesnt because he allows characters to clean up after him so they can level, also he is virtually invinceable to non magic attacks meaning offense is negatable so character like rolf can hide behind him. and his RES isnt as bad as someone like Ikes or boyds.

also, i wasnt saying soren is less work than nephenee, i was saying neph shouldnt be on list of people who require little attention if you want to use them, and giving them bexp would fall under that category, and part two after

2-1 is very doable without her

Edited May 26, 2010 by King Soren

[dondon151]

2-1 will take almost twice as long to do without Nephenee. And you'll probably not recruit Heather.

[RNG Princess]

Heather + disarm = win

[Soren37]

Soren level 20/5

HP-28

STR-9

MAG-23

SKL-21

SPD-18

LCK-11

DEF-9

RES-21

Soren lvl 5 (Elwind)

HP 28, Atk 29, AS 18, Hit 143, Avo 47, DEF 9, RES 21, Crit 10, Ddg 11

Swordmaster lvl 7 (Steel Sword)

HP 33, Atk 25, AS 22, Hit 142, Avo 57, DEF 15, RES 20, Crit 21, Ddg 13

Warrior lvl 8 (Steel Axe)

HP 40, Atk 33, AS 20, Hit 129, Avo 54, DEF 15, RES 9, Crit 10, Ddg 14

Halberdier lvl 8 (Javelin)

HP 36, Atk 26, AS 20, Hit 118, Avo 53, DEF 18, RES 13, Crit 15, Ddg 13

Enemy examples found in 3-P. Source. Against the swordmaster, he'll 4RKO him and Soren'll be ORKO'd due to the AS difference. It doesn't get much better. He can't double any enemy in the chapter, even the Armoureds. Every physical unit can 2RKO him, and he'll have to consistently 2-3RKO enemies. We'll assume 1 level per chapter, which puts him at a +10 level gain before Chapter 11 as dictated by the OP. (1 chapter for DB, 1 chapter for CRK so no levels for Soren). This would put him at 20/20/5, but from what I've heard, you gain less EXP per kill, and receive half as much BEXP, so 20/20/1 might be feasible if babying and BEXP are used.

Level 20/20/1 Soren

HP-38

STR-16.75

MAG-29

SKL-25

SPD-25

LCK-16.25

DEF-16.75

RES-25

Flare activation %: 25%

Soren (Elwind)

HP-38, ATK-35, AS-25, Hit-156, Avo-66, DEF-16, RES-25, Crit-12.5, Ddg-16

3-11 Enemies

Halberdier lvl 15 (Steel Lance)

HP 41, Atk 31, AS 22, Hit 151, Avo 71, Def 22, Res 14, Crit 16, Ddg 17

Warrior lvl 14 (Short Axe, Vulnerary)

HP 44, Atk 36, AS 22, Hit 130, Avo 70, Def 18, Res 10, Crit 11, Ddg 16

Swordmaster lvl 14 (Steel Sword, Vulnerary)

HP 36, Atk 28, AS 25, Hit 162, Avo 77, Def 18, Res 11, Crit 22, Ddg 17

Wind Sage lvl 17 (Elwind)

HP 37, Atk 30, AS 19, Hit 153, Avo 63, Def 14, Res 19, Crit 19, ddg 15

His doubling troubles have left, as he can double any mounted unit, any mage, any armour (except Boss), any archer, one bishop and any dragonmaster. His damage output has increased, as he can now ORKO the Halberdier (21*2 damage), the Warrior (25*2) and the Swordmaster (24*2). He can't take out the Sage though (14*2), which is to be expected. The sage, however, will 7RKO Soren, so Soren can still attack the sage and not have too many issues. His hit may be a cause to worry, as against the Halberdier, he has an 85% chance, which is more like 95.35%. Against slower enemies like sages, he'll have a 93% chance of hitting, which is more like 98.95% in Two RN. Also, one quarter of all of his attacks will result in Flare, which guarantees a kill due to him dealing 105 damage with an Elwind tome.

Also, if Soren is within 3 squares of Ike, he'll get a +5 Crit and Ddg bonus, making him have a 17% chance of a critical. And if you Buddy Soren and Ike and have an A rank data transfer, he'll have an extra 23 Avoid, while Ike'll get a +2 Atk bonus and a +8 Avoid bonus. With data transfer as well, Soren will most likely have an extra +2 RES and an extra +2 SKL. MAG could transfer (54% to cap in PoR), and SPD would be excellent if it somehow capped (22%).

So really, it depends on if you put the time into him or not.

Edited May 26, 2010 by Soren37

[Krad]

A bunch of weird things.

Enemy examples found in 3-P. Source. Against the swordmaster, he'll 4RKO him and Soren'll be ORKO'd due to the AS difference. It doesn't get much better. He can't double any enemy in the chapter, even the Armoureds. Every physical unit can 2RKO him, and he'll have to consistently 2-3RKO enemies. We'll assume 1 level per chapter, which puts him at a +10 level gain before Chapter 11 as dictated by the OP. (1 chapter for DB, 1 chapter for CRK so no levels for Soren). This would put him at 20/20/5, but from what I've heard, you gain less EXP per kill, and receive half as much BEXP, so 20/20/1 might be feasible if babying and BEXP are used.

20 levels in 10 chapters? In HM? Where BEXP is scarce? Seems a bit too unreasonable. I'd say something like --/15/1.

His doubling troubles have left, as he can double any mounted unit, any mage, any armour (except Boss), any archer, one bishop and any dragonmaster. His damage output has increased, as he can now ORKO the Halberdier (21*2 damage), the Warrior (25*2) and the Swordmaster (24*2). He can't take out the Sage though (14*2), which is to be expected. The sage, however, will 7RKO Soren, so Soren can still attack the sage and not have too many issues. His hit may be a cause to worry, as against the Halberdier, he has an 85% chance, which is more like 95.35%. Against slower enemies like sages, he'll have a 93% chance of hitting, which is more like 98.95% in Two RN. Also, one quarter of all of his attacks will result in Flare, which guarantees a kill due to him dealing 105 damage with an Elwind tome.

How does he ORKO the Halbs, Warriors and Swordmasters if he can't even double them? He 2RKOs all three of them (And he's borderline on the Halb, if it has 1 more RES he will be 3RKOing). Also Flare doesn't triple might or magic or anything, it only negates RES. 35 damage instead of 105.

Also, if Soren is within 3 squares of Ike, he'll get a +5 Crit and Ddg bonus, making him have a 17% chance of a critical. And if you Buddy Soren and Ike and have an A rank data transfer, he'll have an extra 23 Avoid, while Ike'll get a +2 Atk bonus and a +8 Avoid bonus.

You have this part all worng. If Soren stand next to Ike he will receive the +5 crit and Ddg. He still only manages to get 0-2% crit against the enemies, so no critting for him. An A support transfer doesn't do anything for them other than making the 4-E-5 base convo conversation available.

[Fenrir]

2-1 will take almost twice as long to do without Nephenee. And you'll probably not recruit Heather.

I said after 2-1 nephenee is not needed

Soren (Elwind)

HP-38, ATK-35, AS-25, Hit-156, Avo-66, DEF-16, RES-25, Crit-12.5, Ddg-16

3-11 Enemies

Halberdier lvl 15 (Steel Lance)

HP 41, Atk 31, AS 22, Hit 151, Avo 71, Def 22, Res 14, Crit 16, Ddg 17

Warrior lvl 14 (Short Axe, Vulnerary)

HP 44, Atk 36, AS 22, Hit 130, Avo 70, Def 18, Res 10, Crit 11, Ddg 16

Swordmaster lvl 14 (Steel Sword, Vulnerary)

HP 36, Atk 28, AS 25, Hit 162, Avo 77, Def 18, Res 11, Crit 22, Ddg 17

Wind Sage lvl 17 (Elwind)

HP 37, Atk 30, AS 19, Hit 153, Avo 63, Def 14, Res 19, Crit 19, ddg 15

His doubling troubles have left, as he can double any mounted unit, any mage, any armour (except Boss), any archer, one bishop and any dragonmaster. His damage output has increased, as he can now ORKO the Halberdier (21*2 damage), the Warrior (25*2) and the Swordmaster (24*2). He can't take out the Sage though (14*2), which is to be expected. The sage, however, will 7RKO Soren, so Soren can still attack the sage and not have too many issues. His hit may be a cause to worry, as against the Halberdier, he has an 85% chance, which is more like 95.35%. Against slower enemies like sages, he'll have a 93% chance of hitting, which is more like 98.95% in Two RN. Also, one quarter of all of his attacks will result in Flare, which guarantees a kill due to him dealing 105 damage with an Elwind tome.

you say soren has an AS of 25 so how does he double any of them but sage? and krad i agree with you with that, from 20/5 to 20/20/1 in 10 stages is pretty much impossible on HM i was reffering to NM when you have tons of bexp.

the flare doesnt do 105 it does 35...

and im sorry to anyone who was asking about turn count because frankly i have no clue how many turns it took me to do 4-4 im think 15-20, i just let all the enemy reinforcements come at Ike and soren and they defend from that stair area(its like a landing where one stair meets the other). IMO its not about turn count but how much fun you have =]

[Soren37]

Bah! Knew I would mess up somewhere. >_<

Sorry for that, I posted this a little later than I wanted to and my brain decided to hate me for it. Either way Krad, thank you for pointing out my mistake, and I followed the info here for support bonuses.

Sorry once again for that bad math.

[Junkhead]

Soren's durability is unfortunately horribad. But I use him, he requires babying, and potshots unless you got him Mag transfer.

[Fenrir]

Soren's durability is unfortunately horribad. But I use him, he requires babying, and potshots unless you got him Mag transfer.

you know, the funniest part of sorens terrible durability is that hes a the son of a frikin dragon(and probably black one) they shouldve just nerfed his character(they did it with ike, a swordmaster/reaver/general, and to an extent mist) made a class just for him like a mage tank class...thatd b cool...

[RNG Princess]

Why him? Ilyana is a whole lot cooler and suckier she'd use the mage tank benefit a lot more than him. :P

[Junkhead]

you know, the funniest part of sorens terrible durability is that hes a the son of a frikin dragon(and probably black one) they shouldve just nerfed his character(they did it with ike, a swordmaster/reaver/general, and to an extent mist) made a class just for him like a mage tank class...thatd b cool...

That would indeed be best, IS didn't have such good ideas in FE10's balancing (Or thereby, lackoff), we get these mages with gigantic Mag, Skill and Res growths and miss on the important part most of the time, and those who have good growths have bad caps.

@Queen Elincia: Ilyana grows decent durability for being a mage, and her NM performance isn't too bad.

[Fenrir]

That would indeed be best, IS didn't have such good ideas in FE10's balancing (Or thereby, lackoff), we get these mages with gigantic Mag, Skill and Res growths and miss on the important part most of the time, and those who have good growths have bad caps.

@Queen Elincia: Ilyana grows decent durability for being a mage, and her NM performance isn't too bad.

yeah, i completely agree, aside from soren, i think all the mages are terrible they just have no defense and more importantly no speed, i've used ilyana and the only good part was shredding the dragons with rexbolt in 4-E-3 but she had no durability so she wasnt even that good there =/ and then tormod, callil and bastian have low avalibility.

Queen_Elincia, but shes not half dragon is she :P

[RNG Princess]

but she's always hungry and eats alot, maybe that explains why she is so slow :o

[Fenrir]

you've got a point XD that made me think, what if haar wasnt tired one day...would he be like a god?