Best/Worst in the Series: Round 41

[Shadow Mir]

With all the votes I see for Rout being the worst, I just have to wonder: Why the hate? I can't see it as being worse than seize (so boring, especially after having played through FE6) or survive (if I can clear a survive map in less turns than I'm supposed to last for, something's wrong. Also, having to stay on the map even when all enemies are dead doesn't help).

Edited May 30, 2010 by Ein Lanford

[dondon151]

I can't see why anyone would like it the most out of all FE map objectives. Rout is pretty boring and unimaginative. It typically involves 3 of your most broken units soloing a third of the map each. It doesn't allow for room for tactical creativity. With seize, escape, and arrive maps, I can find ways to bypass troublesome enemies and go for the fastest clear, but there's no "easy" way to kill all the enemies. And some rout maps just like to completely screw you over in terms of turncount.

For example, in FE8 chapter 12 there's that one dumb Bael that starts out all the way in the middle of the peaks moving 1 space at a time. To make matters worse, it also has late move priority, which means that if another enemy blocks the space that it will move to, it won't move at all, and it's nearly impossible to kill it when it's on a peak. In FE10, all of the part 4 chapters save 4-5 involve reinforcements that appear at the most inconvenient positions. In FE7 chapter 14, there are those pirates and PKs that reinforce from the southern forts. If you don't manage to cleanly kill them, they'll retreat and heal back to full HP on the forts, while you have neither a pirate nor a flier and can do nothing but ram your fist into a wall as you repeatedly end your turn.

Not to mention the occasional fog of war + rout map. Disgusting.

Of course you'd think that seize is the worst kind of map objective if you treat it just like any other rout map, but with the added objective of getting your lord from point A to point B. I think that's what most players do anyway, but most players don't like flexing their tactical muscles. Coupled with the fact that FE6 requires you to do about 30 of them in a row, you'll definitely get bored of the format. But I assure you that if FE6 required 30 straight routs instead of seizes, you'd hate the game much faster.

Edited May 30, 2010 by dondon151

[Shadow Mir]

I can't see why anyone would like it the most out of all FE map objectives. Rout is pretty boring and unimaginative. It typically involves 3 of your most broken units soloing a third of the map each. It doesn't allow for room for tactical creativity. With seize, escape, and arrive maps, I can find ways to bypass troublesome enemies and go for the fastest clear, but there's no "easy" way to kill all the enemies. And some rout maps just like to completely screw you over in terms of turncount.

For example, in FE8 chapter 12 there's that one dumb Bael that starts out all the way in the middle of the peaks moving 1 space at a time. To make matters worse, it also has late move priority, which means that if another enemy blocks the space that it will move to, it won't move at all, and it's nearly impossible to kill it when it's on a peak. In FE10, all of the part 4 chapters save 4-5 involve reinforcements that appear at the most inconvenient positions. In FE7 chapter 14, there are those pirates and PKs that reinforce from the southern forts. If you don't manage to cleanly kill them, they'll retreat and heal back to full HP on the forts, while you have neither a pirate nor a flier and can do nothing but ram your fist into a wall as you repeatedly end your turn.

Not to mention the occasional fog of war + rout map. Disgusting.

Of course you'd think that seize is the worst kind of map objective if you treat it just like any other rout map, but with the added objective of getting your lord from point A to point B. I think that's what most players do anyway, but most players don't like flexing their tactical muscles. Coupled with the fact that FE6 requires you to do about 30 of them in a row, you'll definitely get bored of the format. But I assure you that if FE6 required 30 straight routs instead of seizes, you'd hate the game much faster.

I understand where you're coming from, but one complaint against survive maps is that they rarely, if ever, seem to encourage defense. The concept is rather solid, sure, but if I can clear a map of all enemies in less time than I'm supposed to last for... Something's wrong.

You'd have a good point about fog of war + rout maps... that is, if they weren't so rare. I only remember 3 rout maps having fog of war, and two of those are in the same game.

And if you ask me, fog of war + seize is also rather disgusting.

EDIT: Crap, I forgot about 3-1 in RD.

Edited May 30, 2010 by Ein Lanford

[BrightBow]

Best: Defend

When done well they are easily the most fun of the bunch but sadly most of the time you will end up routing all the enemies anyway.

Worst: Rout the enemy

[dondon151]

I understand where you're coming from, but one complaint against survive maps is that they rarely, if ever, seem to encourage defense. The concept is rather solid, sure, but if I can clear a map of all enemies in less time than I'm supposed to last for... Something's wrong.

That depends on where you are in the game and how liberally you've been distributing EXP. Which, once again, relates back to playstyle. Some earlygame FE7 defense maps like chapters 15 and 18 were relatively challenging.

And if you ask me, fog of war + seize is also rather disgusting.

Not by a long shot. It would probably be true for FE5, but for FE6 and onwards you at least can tell where the gate or throne is. It's not like in FE10 chapter 3-1 where there's that one halberdier that hides in a corner while your units scramble to find that last unit before the you reach the turn limit. Fog of war + rout also tends to be much more dangerous because your units are spread out and more vulnerable to undetected reinforcements, whereas for seize maps it's just a straight drive from point A to point B and liberal use of Torch and Torch staff almost trivialize the fog.

I suppose you'd also count 1-9 as a fog of war + rout map. Even though the chapter ends on bosskill, Jarod doesn't show up until you've cleared a certain amount of enemy units, and that's probably one of the most frustrating chapters in the game.

Edited May 30, 2010 by dondon151

[Shadow Mir]

That depends on where you are in the game and how liberally you've been distributing EXP. Which, once again, relates back to playstyle. Some earlygame FE7 defense maps like chapters 15 and 18 were relatively challenging.

Not by a long shot. It would probably be true for FE5, but for FE6 and onwards you at least can tell where the gate or throne is. It's not like in FE10 chapter 3-1 where there's that one halberdier that hides in a corner while your units scramble to find that last unit before the you reach the turn limit. Fog of war + rout also tends to be much more dangerous because your units are spread out and more vulnerable to undetected reinforcements, whereas for seize maps it's just a straight drive from point A to point B and liberal use of Torch and Torch staff almost trivialize the fog.

I suppose you'd also count 1-9 as a fog of war + rout map. Even though the chapter ends on bosskill, Jarod doesn't show up until you've cleared a certain amount of enemy units, and that's probably one of the most frustrating chapters in the game.

To be honest, I'd also count FE7 chapter 15 as another strike against survive maps since I can kill the boss as early as turn 2. That is NOT what a survive map should be. At all.

And fog of war + seize maps have stuff like chapter 14 and Sacae chapter 20 in FE6. The former is a desert chapter, which is frustrating enough. The latter has long-range harassment that I can't do much of anything about unless I'm willing to burn uses of the Warp staff. And there's the fact that I pretty much have to resign myself to said harassment if I don't have the Warp staff.

Edited May 30, 2010 by Ein Lanford

[_____]

It's often easier to just spam healing staves and end turn in Defend maps. The extra incentive of defending on Defend maps is extra experience, of course. However, giving more skilled players the chance to end the chapter earlier than it was meant to by killing the boss and possibly grabbing whatever item they may drop does not mean that you can't defend.

[dondon151]

And fog of war + seize maps have stuff like chapter 14 and Sacae chapter 20 in FE6. The former is a desert chapter, which is frustrating enough. The latter has long-range harassment that I can't do much of anything about unless I'm willing to burn uses of the Warp staff. And there's the fact that I pretty much have to resign myself to said harassment if I don't have the Warp staff.

Don't forget that FE7 chapter 23 is also a fog of war desert map, and its objective is rout enemy.

FE6 chapter 20S is honestly not that hard. If you're smart and send all of your units up one side, it's easy to avoid one of the Bolting sages. The one that attacks you can subsequently be silenced, slept, or berserked. If you berserk it, you need to make sure that its best target is an armor in the throne room and not any of your units, but the advantage is that it uses up all of the Bolting and is rendered useless for the remainder of the chapter.

You only think you're forced to use the Warp staff because you didn't feel like thinking about it and trying to deal with it another way. That's what I like about seize maps.

[Shadow Mir]

Don't forget that FE7 chapter 23 is also a fog of war desert map, and its objective is rout enemy.

FE6 chapter 20S is honestly not that hard. If you're smart and send all of your units up one side, it's easy to avoid one of the Bolting sages. The one that attacks you can subsequently be silenced, slept, or berserked. If you berserk it, you need to make sure that its best target is an armor in the throne room and not any of your units, but the advantage is that it uses up all of the Bolting and is rendered useless for the remainder of the chapter.

You only think you're forced to use the Warp staff because you didn't feel like thinking about it and trying to deal with it another way. That's what I like about seize maps.

Bold: That's only true in HHM. Otherwise, it's just a rout map in the desert.

TBH, I'd still rather avoid Sacae, especially on hard mode, since I'd rather deal with one FoW map instead of two. Oh, and the Bolting sages aren't the only thing that frustrates me about FE6 chapter 20S.

Even with an argument like that... My disdain for FoW seize maps remains unchanged.

Edited May 30, 2010 by Ein Lanford

[Peachy]

Best: Defend (FE10 2-E was one of my favorite maps in the series)

Worst: Seize (FE1, FE6, FE11, and maybe FE3{haven't played it})

Edited May 30, 2010 by Pegasus Knight

[Aquilae]

Chapter 15 in FE7 HHM is quite challenging, but Marcus makes it relatively easy. I like Defend / Survive chapters because of the ones in FE5, like Chapter 14, the siege of Tahra, where you get 8 Armors and 2 Mages reinforcing each turn, Ballistae everywhere, NPC Dragonknights and enemy Dark Mages appearing near the end and other insane stuff like that. Almost all the Defend / Survive chapters in FE5 were great simply because of the unique map design and the sheer insanity compared to other FEs.

[Shadow Mir]

Chapter 15 in FE7 HHM is quite challenging, but Marcus makes it relatively easy. I like Defend / Survive chapters because of the ones in FE5, like Chapter 14, the siege of Tahra, where you get 8 Armors and 2 Mages reinforcing each turn, Ballistae everywhere, NPC Dragonknights and enemy Dark Mages appearing near the end and other insane stuff like that. Almost all the Defend / Survive chapters in FE5 were great simply because of the unique map design and the sheer insanity compared to other FEs.

I understand where you're coming from, but still, what kind of defend or survive chapter puts the boss within arm's reach of your army to start out?

[NinjaMonkey]

You do know that this isn't Best/Worst Chapter, right?

[dondon151]

Anyway, it would be interesting if rout maps were voted the best and worst objective types.

[BEST TRYNDAMERE PLAYER]

I understand where you're coming from, but still, what kind of defend or survive chapter puts the boss within arm's reach of your army to start out?

You're not supposed to kill the boss, you're supposed to steal his shit either with Thief staff or sleep him and have Dean capture him.

[Shadow Mir]

You're not supposed to kill the boss, you're supposed to steal his shit either with Thief staff or sleep him and have Dean capture him.

I haven't played FE5, so I haven't the foggiest what you're talking about. I was referring to FE7 chapter 15.

Edited May 31, 2010 by Ein Lanford

[dondon151]

He's talking about FE7 chapter 15.

[Scarlet]

Best: Defend for X turns

It's just a nice change of pace if you're forced to go from "kill everything in sight" mode to "don't let any noob seize that particular square" mode for once, as it requires slightly different tactics. This only applies, of course, if the enemies are sufficiently challenging - chapters like Sands of Time in FE7 might as well just be complete jokes.

Worst: Rout

It gets boring after a while (I'm looking at you, FE8), and if you have to kill every enemy on the map, you also kinda can't apply any strategies that involve leaving particular strong enemies alone instead of fighting them.

[BEST TRYNDAMERE PLAYER]

I haven't played FE5, so I haven't the foggiest what you're talking about. I was referring to FE7 chapter 15.

Ah yeah, I haven't touched FE7 in forever. My bad. But the situation is similar in FE5 Chapter 14 as well.

[Integrity]

Worst: Rout

It gets boring after a while (I'm looking at you, FE8),

Come again? A quick tally shows that, assuming Eirika's route, FE8 has 7 Rout chapters in total out of 23.

Edited May 31, 2010 by Integrity

[Narga_Rocks]

To be honest, I'd also count FE7 chapter 15 as another strike against survive maps since I can kill the boss as early as turn 2. That is NOT what a survive map should be. At all.

And fog of war + seize maps have stuff like chapter 14 and Sacae chapter 20 in FE6. The former is a desert chapter, which is frustrating enough. The latter has long-range harassment that I can't do much of anything about unless I'm willing to burn uses of the Warp staff. And there's the fact that I pretty much have to resign myself to said harassment if I don't have the Warp staff.

chapter 20 in sacae gives you 10 range sight for normal units and 15 for thieves and you can have +3 range with torches. Chapter 20 might as well not even be fog of war. It's just downright annoying fow or not.

[Thor Odinson]

Best: Kill boss. Most versatility in that one--- you can either rout the entire map if you want EXP or kill the boss in a few turns for efficiency.

Worst: Rout. Especially FOW rout. GAH.