Lord of Azure Flame: Suggestions

[Snike]

Yeah, I kind of feel stupid for the individual caps now, because my guy got nerfed even more than before. But I'm not complaining. I'm just trying to figure out how to rebalance the classes, so we don't have one that's so much worse than the others. Dealing with physical classes first, as they're the hardest.

Again, I suggest we have a itteh bitteh kitteh commitehe set up for skills, maybe of three people, so we can put this matter to rest, for now.

Edited June 22, 2010 by Snike

[riariadne]

I'll joiiiin. I'm good a balancing things as long as I have someone else pointing out what's too extreme.

I can also be a co-stat maker if we're going to do that.

[Snike]

I'll joiiiin. I'm good a balancing things as long as I have someone else pointing out what's too extreme.

I can also be a co-stat maker if we're going to do that.

I honestly think we should vote as to who's on the committee.

[-Cynthia-]

When 3 Spd enemies show up you can feel all special though.

Skill committee. Uh sure, I guess.

@Phoenix I thought it was obvious XD

[Snike]

When 3 Spd enemies show up you can feel all special though.

Skill committee. Uh sure, I guess.

@Phoenix I thought it was obvious XD

:D! I get to double!

*Reika finds some 4-SPD enemies, and doubles them*

... ;_;

[riariadne]

*Chase does as well for teh lulz*

*Then activates Adept twice to add insult to injury*

Edited June 22, 2010 by Lightning

[Phoenix]

@Phoenix I thought it was obvious XD

Just play all your cards up front next time.

@ Committee

I'd help but ... apparently I know nothing of balance ;_; (though I could easily throw up Lightning's excuse :P )

[Balcerzak]

Well, the issue is, we can't keep nerfing the skills, just because a certain character would break the system. The more we nerf them, the harder it gets, as Snowy throws stronger and stronger enemies at us. That's why I'm suggesting that, so we don't keep needing to have to change things due to a certain class. I mean, Full Tilt on a Warrior/Zerker would make sense. So would Daunt. Put either on a 'sin, and there's complaints. Resolve on a SM, or a FalcoKnight, isn't too broken. You put it on a General, or a WarZerker, and people complain. There has to be some compromise.

It's not just nerfing the skills because certain characters OP them. There is partly that consideration, yes, but there's also the consideration of keeping all of the skills at roughly the same level of power. When you have certain skills that completely outclass other skills, you know something is not right. You're acting as if I'm on a crusade to nerf skills, when in fact more often than not I've been buffing ones I thought got the short end of the stick. The problem came in with your set of skills, which seemed to be tiers more powerful than Snowy's original ones.

Snike's trying to balance the skills I guess.

I'm trying to suggest giving classes their natural traits in the form of skills. There's nothing OP about high evade characters dodging 90% of all attacks thrown at them, but going down in like two hits. There's also nothing OP about a armor knight being immune to a Myrm's attacks, but being demolished by mages. It's not unbalanced, it's just rock paper scissors like every other FE aspect.

There's nothing necessarily OP about 83% miss rates, yes. I would actually argue it's still very close to OP, but potentially manageable. When your evade gets to 100% though...

More like equalizing the classes.

You're arguing that Full Tilt is over powered because of high-evade classes. I'm saying that why in hell would said classes want it, if they're dodging most of the time anyways?

Because full invulnerability is better than something that can betray you on a bad roll. Because people meta-game.

It doesn't make sense for a thief or a myrm to go rush recklessly at full speed and risk getting mauled when they can just dodge the attack easily with a simple movement. That sounds more like GenZerkRior behaviour. Continuing with that logic, it doesn't make sense that a man with a rather slim sword, or a small girl with knives should scare the hell out of enemies, except in specific circumstances. That's what the heavy units do. Likewise, which class is more likely to give up when they're on the verge of death? The armors and the axemen. I'm trying to divy them up to balance the classes, but still keep them in-character, so to speak. If it is such a problem, restrict the skills to certain classes. Phoenix is right about the crit skills, though, save for Wrath. Wrath is universal.

Except, that rushing in isn't really reckless in this case, because it's impossible for the enemy to take advantage of it, unless you're trying to argue some sort of flavor here, which is probably bound for failure. Most skills don't lend themselves well to making actual sense.

Phoenix, you need to learn how to read. Seriously. Reika can make herself invincible against all the low Skl characters with an extra 2 points in Lck. You already have exactly what you want, so stop bitching about it. Even a max Skl character would only hit her half the time.

"But it's not all about Reika". Other combat characters haven't invested as highly in Evd, so they're going to get hit more often. If you don't like Reika as an example, Tessa has the same Evd (instead of knives she has a support boost).

Basically, all atributes should be relatively equal, or else Spd is going to have to cost twice as much to invest in. It's called balance, a concept you seem to know absolutely nothing about.

Let's also look at Damian, shall we then?

Damian: Hp:4 Str:4 Mag:0 Skl:4 Spd:4 Lck:2 Def:5 Res:0

Supports: B, C, -> +1 Might, +2 Evade

Damian has 7 evade. If he goes Full Tilt, he suddenly has 10 evade... That... seems... impenetrable.

Even revised Full Tilt, with only boosting the Spd contributions, or a flat +2 would leave him at 9 Evade which is dangerously close to "Wow..." levels.

[Snike]

*Chase does as well for teh lulz*

*Then activates Adept twice to add insult to injury*

*Eric cuts self*

*Wrath Crits a 6*

:P

@ Phoenix: Yeah, honestly, it should be Cynth, Bal, and someone else.

Edit: @ Bal: ... I'll elaborate after whoever replies next... replies.

Edit2: Screw it. Here we go.

It's not just nerfing the skills because certain characters OP them. There is partly that consideration, yes, but there's also the consideration of keeping all of the skills at roughly the same level of power. When you have certain skills that completely outclass other skills, you know something is not right. You're acting as if I'm on a crusade to nerf skills, when in fact more often than not I've been buffing ones I thought got the short end of the stick. The problem came in with your set of skills, which seemed to be tiers more powerful than Snowy's original ones.

The issue with balancing is that it's practically impossible, given the various classes. One skill will always be more useful to a certain class than it is to another, and so on and so forth. I guess the reason my skills seem to be more powerful is because they aren't luck-based, for the most part. To have all skills at the same level of utility, we would have to make the effects identical, or, as I mentioned, class restrictions.

There's nothing necessarily OP about 83% miss rates, yes. I would actually argue it's still very close to OP, but potentially manageable. When your evade gets to 100% though...

Odds are, Snowy's not going to let that happen. He'll throw in a sure shot attack, or something, to make them get hit.

Because full invulnerability is better than something that can betray you on a bad roll. Because people meta-game.

Point taken. Again, class restrictions.

Except, that rushing in isn't really reckless in this case, because it's impossible for the enemy to take advantage of it, unless you're trying to argue some sort of flavor here, which is probably bound for failure. Most skills don't lend themselves well to making actual sense.

It's out of character, to say the least/ fighting style. Rushing in is going to get you owned from the sides... Wait, have we implemented flanking bonuses? If so, the rush thing would reduce avoid from the sides. You could argue a Skill reduction, as well, regardless of whether or not the bonus is implemented.

Let's also look at Damian, shall we then?

Damian: Hp:4 Str:4 Mag:0 Skl:4 Spd:4 Lck:2 Def:5 Res:0

Supports: B, C, -> +1 Might, +2 Evade

Damian has 7 evade. If he goes Full Tilt, he suddenly has 10 evade... That... seems... impenetrable.

Even revised Full Tilt, with only boosting the Spd contributions, or a flat +2 would leave him at 9 Evade which is dangerously close to "Wow..." levels.

Class restrictions strike again. Halberdiers aren't really the ones I'm talking about giving Full Tilt to. And if you're going to argue supports, then we should ditch most of these skills, due to supports pushing them over the top.

In other news, if we do have a committee of sorts, I have a chatango chatbox they can use.

Edited June 22, 2010 by Snike

[Ansem]

Arcane power is a little meh isnt it?

[Snike]

Uh, what? That's probably the most OPed skill there. Just toast your RES against physical units, and your DEF/SKL against magical units. Probably the best Tier 2 skill there.

Edited June 23, 2010 by Snike

[Ansem]

Thats what i meant

[Snike]

Meh =/= OP.

[Ansem]

Shadap you asked me to revive this

[Snike]

Yes, but with something plausible. This is to bide time until Bal rips into me again, Mmk?

Also, TIMESKIP COMPLETE.

Edit: Anyways, I suggest we switch Deadeye for Sure Shot, in that for one attack only, it's a guaranteed it. Yes? No?

Edited June 23, 2010 by Snike

[riariadne]

... Well, I think I would have a rather large say here seeing as I control the only PC archer at the time. Deadeye's kinda weird, but it's a good skill, too. I suggest PoR Deadeye: It doubles your hit and has a skill% chance of putting the enemy to sleep. This is what I'm thinking...

Deadeye: Snipers only. If you roll a 5 on your skill die, multiply the hit die by 1.5. If the attack hits, the enemy may not counter attack until the end of 2 more battle posts.

[Snowy_One]

So firstly, are we buffing luck up from .5 evade to 1 evade?

I would also like to add that Arcanium allows for targeting choice between RES and DEF. Currently, it cots 5 points for it to be of any value at all. Three for the skill, and two for the MAG. We can also put it for magic units except adjusted.

[Snike]

No problem with it, FMPOV. Also, the skill committee might as well be formed, due to majority approval. You should pick the members.

Edit: I don't think so, due to that fact that dodge tanks would be born.

Edited June 23, 2010 by Snike

[Phoenix]

I'd support it but me and Cynthia are just starting to get along (on stat issues) and I don't want to go back to "birdbrain" :(

If she doesn't care then I'm for it(but let's face it she does*shot* :D

If it does get changed then I have to edit the battle results, and thing will probably come out differently. I'd like a verdict on this quick :/

[Snike]

In other news, next round, unless he picks a weakened fighter, Eric's in wrath territory. With another guy dead. Yeah, the RNG is giving him a break.

[Ansem]

Something was brought to my attention. In FE4 if the boss has a 1 range item and a 1-2 range item and we attack him with far range combat he uses the 1-2 range weapon. Let me give you an example

Shannan is a Swordmaster with The Balmung and Fire sword

Balmung is one ranged and Fire sword is 1 - 2 ranged

Briggid, a sniper attacks Shannan who is equipped with Balmung how ever his weapon switches over to the fire sword and he WTF pawns Briggid.

Point is i think we should give every boss a ranged item so that bow users cant get free exp

EDIT: Example was to piss off Rein ^_^

Edited June 23, 2010 by Kai

[Phoenix]

Kai's actually right about this, but for the wrong reasons.

[-Cynthia-]

There could be a blanket rule "bosses always counter". The no countering effect of bows is pretty powerful as it is, since enemy phase doesn't come up too much.

[riariadne]

... Yeah, that example sucked because not only would Briggid own Shannan assuming she has Ichival there and you're not a total idiot (which I'm not quite sure we can assume) but they're not even in the same generation of FE4 and they're both PCs. So no, that example was bad and you should feel bad. Also you failed to piss me off, only cry a little on the inside at how stupid some people can be.

@Above two: Pretty much what I was thinking.

Edited June 23, 2010 by Lightning

[Ansem]

@ Rein: Shannan has 1 range and continue plus pursuit and Astra which can result in 20 hits

And it is an example, not like that can happen

@ Boss counter: I agree with Cynthia. Bosses should counter no matter how you attack

Edited June 23, 2010 by Kai