Possible tier list changes

[Rodykitty]

Except that we're not making a tier list, we're shooting down certain claims, using info that is mostly confirmed, at that.

Edited June 11, 2010 by Super FE3 Player

[Don Draper]

I know the argument is pretty much over, but I noticed a few things:

It will then come down to durability/strength which luke will always win in till promotion.

Cecile and Luke have the same strength base and growth. Luke will never win strength (and always lose speed to her).

Rody while worse than both beforehand will be bragging luke's strength and Cecil's speed after promotion.

He'll have the same strength as her, and worse speed when they're both at 20/1. Advantage: Cecile.

Their has only been 1 female hero in the entire history of the series.

Machua and Echidna makes two.

Edited June 12, 2010 by Ari Gold

[Anouleth]

If FEDS was any indication, male cavs aren't in the same class set as heroes. To call IOS stupid for disagreeing with your assumption (which is only rooted in our limited knowledge of "my unit" choices, no less) is hypocritical.

It's not like reclass automatically made units good in FEDS, either. A good reclassed unit generally needed to be promoted and needed to have weapon rank in secondary weapons.

Aren't they bringing playable Fighters back? I remember a video showing an Axe in My Units inventory, and Fighter is an option for My Unit at least. And certain other possibilities might get scrapped, like Pirates, Dark Mages, and Male Myrms. It might be that there's only one male class set. I can't see them making an entire new class set just for the handful of Mercenaries and Armours that appear (and Sheema exists now as well).

[dondon151]

We don't know any of this for sure, though. I'm not claiming that not all males will have hero as a reclass choice. I understand that there were no myrmidons in FE3, but Navarre was a male myrmidon in FEDS, and it would seem strange that they would put him in a different class for this game.

[Mekkah]

FE3 B2 tier lists will prolly get a major overhaul when IOS and me finish our efficient B2 runs.

[Thief]

What is this tier business?

[Rodykitty]

And certain other possibilities might get scrapped, like Pirates, Dark Mages, and Male Myrms.

Pirates and Dark Mages aren't the kind of classes that would suit the background choices that the game offers for My Unit. The lack of male Swordfighter is probably just to make the class choices between genders for My Unit a bit different.

People need to stop using My Unit class choices as the gospel for knowing what the class sets are.

I'm not claiming that not all males will have hero as a reclass choice.

Not all males could go hero in FEDS, so it's not a farfetched thing to claim. Edited June 12, 2010 by Super FE3 Player

[Dat Nick]

Has anybody stopped for two seconds to consider...

....Why anybody would pick Myrm when they can pick Merc instead? Ever think that's the reason why IS decided not to inlcude Myrm as a Male option, because "Well, Who would pick Myrm when the blatantly superior Merc class is available?"

[Interceptor]

Has anybody stopped for two seconds to consider...

....Why anybody would pick Myrm when they can pick Merc instead? Ever think that's the reason why IS decided not to inlcude Myrm as a Male option, because "Well, Who would pick Myrm when the blatantly superior Merc class is available?"

They could make Myrmidon competitive with Mercs if they tried. More SPD on the Myrm, enough AS on the enemies to make it matter, bonus crit, that'd be a good start.

id prefer it if things didnt run 30% on all my guys kthx

There's a middle ground, you know. I'd rather not run around with everyone having single digit True Hit, but on the other hand I'd like units that are supposed to be good at dodging, be able to dodge something.

Really, the 2RN makes a lot less sense in an environment where hit rates don't usually drop under 50%.

[dondon151]

From a class set perspective, in the FEDS environment myrm was strictly superior to merc because they had access to better classes after promotion.

[Anouleth]

From that perspective, Archer is also better than Merc because you can class-change an Archer into something better.

[dondon151]

Yes, of course. This is under the assumption that the merc in question has 0 initial sword WEXP and archer has instant access to reclass. In which case, it's basically a merc vs. myrm argument all over again.

Of course, we know in real life that these ideal scenarios are, sadly, not true.

[Momo]

From a class set perspective, in the FEDS environment myrm was strictly superior to merc because they had access to better classes after promotion.

If the class' best aspect is "can turn into better classes", then that doesn't make it better. What does group A have that's so much better than B, anyway?

[dondon151]

If the class' best aspect is "can turn into better classes", then that doesn't make it better. What does group A have that's so much better than B, anyway?

If you were not sure to go myrm or merc, and reclassing options were the defining difference, then one of those classes is better than the other. Am I incorrect in making that deduction?

Class set A has paladin, dracoknight, and bishop, plus they can go sniper or swordmaster in a pinch (they start off with C rank, which requires no training at all). Class set B really has nothing that can put up a fight. Sorceror does not have adequate staff rank and there are no flying classes or 10-move classes. Hero, warrior, and berserker are solid combat classes in any other game, but not in FEDS, where all you need is weapon rank and move.

[Momo]

Why do you need good move? To reach enemies? Loads of them are cavs and dracoknights anyway, you don't ever have to worry about that. To move huge distances quickly? That's an easy way to die. I'm not seeing how Paladin helps very much, though Dracoknight's ignoring terrain could help (watch out for any bows tho). B set really has no answer to Bishop, so I guess that's a plus. They really should've put priest in both sets, but whatever. Sniper's a good class, but it has no one range, and can't attack other Snipers without taking a counter. Why would you want to be a Swordmaster? You get the worst set of weapons and don't have two range, just to get the privilege of doubling with WTD half the time.

Hero's got none of the problems Swordmaster has, though Warrior and Berserker are a little too situational for me to support (so situational I can't think of any time you use them over a Hero). Then there's General, which doesn't double, but doesn't die and has potential to hit both Paladins and Dracoknights (the most common enemies) where it hurts. I'm not seeing what makes A better.

[Mekkah]

Yes, high mov (and flying) allows you to reach enemies earlier, or at a most convenient point. FEDS allows you to forge effective weapons, which allows the player units to OHKO things. The most efficient way to utilize this is to do it before the enemy reaches you. And high mov units can do this better than any others, especially since they can clear ahead far enough that Marth is hardly ever in any danger (in H5, the most Marth can be expected to survive is one hit). The same advantage also allows you to kill archers without any counterdamage whatsoever.

Sniper's a good class, but it has no one range,

Not a problem in a player phase dominated game. Enemy density is very low, so it's very easy to gang upon these enemies before they can attack the Sniper.

and can't attack other Snipers without taking a counter.

Hence "in a pinch" - generally Snipers are disposed of before they have a chance to attack.

Why would you want to be a Swordmaster? You get the worst set of weapons and don't have two range, just to get the privilege of doubling with WTD half the time.

Situational use only. Read: ORKOing or even OHKOing lategame Mamkutes with a forged Wyrmslayer. You need that insane Spd cap to do it.

Class B is a lot more useful for people who take their time beating the game - baiting things with Sedgar/Wolf as Generals, generally utilizing Barst's statistical prowess rather than the swift forge disposal techniques of the likes of Caeda, Hardin and Abel. It's different styles of play, but class A cuts down on more turns overall.

Edited June 12, 2010 by Mekkah

[Momo]

Yes, high mov (and flying) allows you to reach enemies earlier, or at a most convenient point. FEDS allows you to forge effective weapons, which allows the player units to OHKO things. The most efficient way to utilize this is to do it before the enemy reaches you. And high mov units can do this better than any others, especially since they can clear ahead far enough that Marth is hardly ever in any danger (in H5, the most Marth can be expected to survive is one hit). The same advantage also allows you to kill archers without any counterdamage whatsoever.

Does it really matter if cavs can get to the enemy faster, if Marth still has to walk to the throne? From what I remember, any choke points you can abuse to stop the constant rain of enemies, are easily used by foot units.

Not a problem in a player phase dominated game. Enemy density is very low, so it's very easy to gang upon these enemies before they can attack the Sniper.

Sure.

Situational use only. Read: ORKOing or even OHKOing lategame Mamkutes with a forged Wyrmslayer. You need that insane Spd cap to do it.

A class being good for one specific enemy (one that you can ignore most of the time) doesn't really make it all that great. Even if you kill a Mamkute with it, they're at a disadvantage against everything else.

Class B is a lot more useful for people who take their time beating the game - baiting things with Sedgar/Wolf as Generals, generally utilizing Barst's statistical prowess rather than the swift forge disposal techniques of the likes of Caeda, Hardin and Abel. It's different styles of play, but class A cuts down on more turns overall.

I don't know about Hardin or Abel, but I doubt Sheeda can take an entire army's turn of abuse. Seems like suicide to have the three of them go off and try to be war heroes.

[dondon151]

Does it really matter if cavs can get to the enemy faster, if Marth still has to walk to the throne? From what I remember, any choke points you can abuse to stop the constant rain of enemies, are easily used by foot units.

Consider the scenario where Marth uses his maximum movement on his first turn and puts himself in the range of enemies. If you used 6-8 move units (generals, heroes, berserkers), you wouldn't be in range to kill off the enemies on the first turn and Marth would be vulnerable. If you used 10 move units (paladins, dracoknights), you could simply OHKO all of them. See for an example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKbLUBnV5zM

A class being good for one specific enemy (one that you can ignore most of the time) doesn't really make it all that great. Even if you kill a Mamkute with it, they're at a disadvantage against everything else.

The simple fact is, however, that a class being good for one specific enemy is superior to a class being good for no specific enemies. Heroes, unless you're Ogma or Caesar, are not good against manaketes. Most heroes tend to be reclassed from something like fighter (e.g. Barst) and will generally not have C swords to wield a Wyrmslayer. Swordmasters are good when it counts - there are 3 crucial manaketes to assassinate in the game (Mannu is not one of them), and that's basically all they're good for. But like I said, they're useful "in a pinch" because of C swords. Same deal with snipers, too, although C bows doesn't bring anything new to the table other than Killer Bow (same MT as Steel Bow) and Longbow.

I don't know about Hardin or Abel, but I doubt Sheeda can take an entire army's turn of abuse. Seems like suicide to have the three of them go off and try to be war heroes.

Caeda + 2 cavs can solo 4 enemy cavs in 1 enemy + player phase with only one of them sustaining damage. Also:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWDsUs4x2bQ

EDIT: Totally forgot about auto-embedding. Kind of annoying.

Edited June 13, 2010 by dondon151

[Rewjeo]

Although, assuming no reclassing, merc is superior to myrm, right? That's the way I've always understood it.

Edit: Also, pointing out why x>y in an efficient playthrough of H5 probably isn't the best idea here. It's not a topic about what's best for what, it's for an update about the new FE. I doubt many people really care about that. Many won't reclass (it ruins individuality, apparently, and they wouldn't do that to themselves!) and will play on lower difficulties with their only goal being to finish the game.

Edited June 13, 2010 by Slize

[dondon151]

I agree that generally axes > crit bonus or whatever, but to me there's no difference between the first tier classes.

[Momo]

Consider the scenario where Marth uses his maximum movement on his first turn and puts himself in the range of enemies. If you used 6-8 move units (generals, heroes, berserkers), you wouldn't be in range to kill off the enemies on the first turn and Marth would be vulnerable. If you used 10 move units (paladins, dracoknights), you could simply OHKO all of them. See for an example:

*bideo*

I don't see how eliminating those two armors on the right on turn 1 was necessary. Even if they could attack you, they wouldn't have killed anyone. Other than that, I'm not seeing anything that a lot of move helps with, notice that even though you apparently saved time with them, Marth still ends up waiting for Palla and Catria. Just cause you can do something fancy like that, doesn't mean you really need to.

The simple fact is, however, that a class being good for one specific enemy is superior to a class being good for no specific enemies. Heroes, unless you're Ogma or Caesar, are not good against manaketes. Most heroes tend to be reclassed from something like fighter (e.g. Barst) and will generally not have C swords to wield a Wyrmslayer. Swordmasters are good when it counts - there are 3 crucial manaketes to assassinate in the game (Mannu is not one of them), and that's basically all they're good for.

So one class good for 3 enemies, while another class is good against almost everything else... Hm.

Caeda + 2 cavs can solo 4 enemy cavs in 1 enemy + player phase with only one of them sustaining damage. Also:

*bideo*

EDIT: Totally forgot about auto-embedding. Kind of annoying.

Once again I'm not seeing why you bothered. The cavs come to you, and you already dealt with the other enemies before they came. Also notice that Jagen (group A) was doing about the same damage to the enemy fighters than Barst and Bord (group B), even though Jagen was doubling.

[dondon151]

I don't see how eliminating those two armors on the right on turn 1 was necessary. Even if they could attack you, they wouldn't have killed anyone. Other than that, I'm not seeing anything that a lot of move helps with, notice that even though you apparently saved time with them, Marth still ends up waiting for Palla and Catria. Just cause you can do something fancy like that, doesn't mean you really need to.

Then how do you think I got Julian, Hardin, Athena, and Jagen down the right side unscathed?

Once again I'm not seeing why you bothered. The cavs come to you, and you already dealt with the other enemies before they came. Also notice that Jagen (group A) was doing about the same damage to the enemy fighters than Barst and Bord (group B), even though Jagen was doubling.

Do you really think I could have survived 4 cavs + Matthis? Either way I would have had to retreat with Wing Spear; this method saved me 2-3 turns.

Anyway, if I cannot convince you with hard video evidence, that just means you are firmly rooted in a traditional slow-play style. Which is perfectly fine, but don't go around claiming that class set B is better because they lack the potential to save turns.

Edited June 13, 2010 by dondon151

[Momo]

Then how do you think I got Julian, Hardin, Athena, and Jagen down the right side unscathed?

Well, looking at it, those armors couldn't even get to your squad in the first place, because of the terrain. You could even kill them on turn two and nothing would change.

Do you really think I could have survived 4 cavs + Matthis? Either way I would have had to retreat with Wing Spear; this method saved me 2-3 turns.

How did it? If Sheeda can kill a cav a turn alone, I don't see how Sheeda + the rest of the army can't deal with four in two phases. Matthis recruits himself, so you don't even need to use up Lena's turn, if you're worried about needing to heal someone.

[dondon151]

Well, looking at it, those armors couldn't even get to your squad in the first place, because of the terrain. You could even kill them on turn two and nothing would change.

Incorrect. Nothing short of a Wing Spear or Hammer attack would flat out OHKO them, and none of the units that went down the right side could use those weapons. Furthermore, I needed units that could use the Ridersbane to go down the right side. The only such unit that can OHKO armors and cavs is Caeda, whom I needed to KO Jiol. Minerva, while being able to use Hammer, does not have the lance rank for Ridersbane. If you watched the subsequent parts to that chapter, you'll realize that I barely managed to snag the Bullion and Silver Card before Marth seized the throne. Hence, clearing the armors on turn 2 would have been a strictly inferior strategy.

How did it? If Sheeda can kill a cav a turn alone, I don't see how Sheeda + the rest of the army can't deal with four in two phases. Matthis recruits himself, so you don't even need to use up Lena's turn, if you're worried about needing to heal someone.

Notice that I needed Caeda and Abel to intercept the thief heading for the village. Therefore, Caeda's player phase wasn't free. The rest of my units had extreme difficulty killing other cavaliers and I'm pretty sure Matthis does not recruit himself on Lena. I did not box her in simply because I was stupid; on previous attempts, Matthis would attack Lena rather than recruit himself on her.

I would highly suggest that you stop arguing me about details pertaining to my 0% playthrough. I'd think I know more about it than anyone else. I'd also suggest that you take a look at the chapter 12 video for a crash course on the merits of 10 move:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjFeA_MovI0

[Momo]

Incorrect. Nothing short of a Wing Spear or Hammer attack would flat out OHKO them, and none of the units that went down the right side could use those weapons. Furthermore, I needed units that could use the Ridersbane to go down the right side. The only such unit that can OHKO armors and cavs is Caeda, whom I needed to KO Jiol. Minerva, while being able to use Hammer, does not have the lance rank for Ridersbane. If you watched the subsequent parts to that chapter, you'll realize that I barely managed to snag the Bullion and Silver Card before Marth seized the throne. Hence, clearing the armors on turn 2 would have been a strictly inferior strategy.

Why do you need to kill them in one hit, exactly? I was not talking about a 0% growths run, your dudes should be able to take a single hit from an armor. Also, you seem to think I'm saying you should never use Paladins or Dracos, which isn't true. I'm just saying class A isn't better than B.

Notice that I needed Caeda and Abel to intercept the thief heading for the village. Therefore, Caeda's player phase wasn't free. The rest of my units had extreme difficulty killing other cavaliers and I'm pretty sure Matthis does not recruit himself on Lena. I did not box her in simply because I was stupid; on previous attempts, Matthis would attack Lena rather than recruit himself on her.

Sheeda does not have to be the one to kill the thief, but that is another job someone with high move can do. It's just that thieves are typically deep within enemy territory, and one frail unit would not be able to fight their way in alone.

I would highly suggest that you stop arguing me about details pertaining to my 0% playthrough. I'd think I know more about it than anyone else.

Sorry, your highness, for I am but a simple commoner that yearns for your infinite wisdom

I'd also suggest that you take a look at the chapter 12 video for a crash course on the merits of 10 move:

*bideo*

From what I can see here, you needed high move in order to get those boots. Everything else could've been done with lower move units.