Possible tier list changes

[_____]

Don't hate the player, hate the game. Flying is king, so I can see where the argument comes from. I personally found Barst to be incredibly useful, but my run and the pope's are not directly comparable.

Efficiency. Also did I ever say he was useless? No I didn't. We've just reevaluated his actual position and it appears that their were simply better strategies.

In all these games the goals of most other units for maximum efficiency was to simply help out the strongest who were leading the charge. He might miss an enemy or maybe he gets overwhelmed by ranged units and needs others to clear a path so he can move the maximum amount each turn. Either way he needs people who can keep up with him and pick off any morons who dare to attack him so he can keep moving.

If you noticed most of these guys are HIGH move units. Similar to Caeda/Jeigan/Minerva.

I was directly responding to the ridiculous claim that Minerva is wonderful solely because she can catch up to Caeda. I don't find flying particularly useful in this, mostly due to the lack of rescuing, but I realize that having more move is almost certainly better.

Also, this:

If you can't support Haar/Ike/whoever was top tier for any specific chapter in RD your usefulness is limited.

If you can't support Titania in POR your usefulness is limited.

If you can't support Seth in SS your usefulness was limited.

If you can't support the top tiers in SoS your usefulness was limited.

This is simply wrong. There's no two ways about it. You are not auto-bottomed because you can't keep up with Seth, or Titania, or Haar, and especially if you can't keep up with Caeda, who is nowhere near as amazing as Haar in non-Warpskip. She can take 1 hit just like everybody else, and she can't run off on her own a majority of the time. She requires back-up, and relying on 10 move units alone for this isn't going to cut it.

[Mr. Francis York Morgan]

I was directly responding to the ridiculous claim that Minerva is wonderful solely because she can catch up to Caeda. I don't find flying particularly useful in this, mostly due to the lack of rescuing, but I realize that having more move is almost certainly better.

Also, this:

This is simply wrong. There's no two ways about it. You are not auto-bottomed because you can't keep up with Seth, or Titania, or Haar, and especially if you can't keep up with Caeda, who is nowhere near as amazing as Haar in non-Warpskip. She can take 1 hit just like everybody else, and she can't run off on her own a majority of the time. She requires back-up, and relying on 10 move units alone for this isn't going to cut it.

Go watch Dondons video's. And yes you are auto devalued. Not bottomed. Devalued.

You still don't understand. It was stated that Jeigan's LATEGAME was better than Barst's LATEGAME. So what if his 1-12>Barst? i don't think the first ~1/2 of the game counts as lategame, do you?

Jeigan's late game is better than Barst's lategame in warpskip though that what you don't understand. All that matters is the weapon ranks and high move to keep up with Caeda. Most of the enemies Jeigan is fighting are fairly slow. Knights/mages/cavs mostly in chapter 10/12/17.

Oh and if you read my post I just said Barst's endgame wasn't as valuable as Jeigan's early game since their are a ton of units who can replicate his performance on some level by that point in the game. That's the summary for ya. It's not like Vincent didn't just post it above so you can scroll up and read it.

In response to chainey: I never said Bottomed. I said DEVALUED. Being able to keep up with the guy who is actually beating the chapter should be a actual factor in how we tier these dudes.

Edited June 14, 2010 by Mr. Francis York Morgan

[Rodykitty]

People aren't auto-bottomed because of top tiers, they simply aren't as good as them.

Barts falling below the flying Lance users on warpskip tier list is actually a possibility, but for non-warpskip he gets his own anti-horse weapon for the late game so it's not definite for that list yet.

Edited June 14, 2010 by Super FE3 Player

[Interceptor]

I was directly responding to the ridiculous claim that Minerva is wonderful solely because she can catch up to Caeda. I don't find flying particularly useful in this, mostly due to the lack of rescuing, but I realize that having more move is almost certainly better.

If you don't find it useful, you weren't looking hard enough. The ability to forge OHKO weapons is absurdly powerful, but made even moreso when you can outmaneuver enemy units and blick them before they can even attack you in the first place. 10MV + flying is huge for this. There's no unit in the game other than an opposed Dracoknight that can even COMPETE with you here in any sort of contested terrain situation.

This is simply wrong. There's no two ways about it. You are not auto-bottomed because you can't keep up with Seth, or Titania, or Haar, and especially if you can't keep up with Caeda, who is nowhere near as amazing as Haar in non-Warpskip. She can take 1 hit just like everybody else, and she can't run off on her own a majority of the time. She requires back-up, and relying on 10 move units alone for this isn't going to cut it.

For the love of [$deity], would you please stop straw-manning the shit out of people that you reply to? Lancelot said -- in a passage that you quoted -- that a unit's "usefulness is limited" in those situations. You immediately characterize it as "auto-bottom".

Is the disparity between these two things obvious to you now that I've pointed it out, or do I need to follow up with an MSPaint flowchart?

[dondon151]

You still don't understand. It was stated that Jeigan's LATEGAME was better than Barst's LATEGAME. So what if his 1-12>Barst? i don't think the first ~1/2 of the game counts as lategame, do you?

Actually, I'm pretty sure that's not what I said, nor was it what I was implying, although I can see where the misunderstanding comes from. My argument was that despite Barst's lategame superiority, when examined over the course of the entire game, Jagen > Barst.

Thanks to Vincent for splitting this topic off. I was going to stop after I realized that we had been on a tangent for several pages, but it seems like I can start again.

Edited June 14, 2010 by dondon151

[_____]

Alright, before I post anything else and risk looking like a fool because of it, let me ask a simple question. How do you define efficiency on the Non-Warpskip tier list? I should hope that it would not be Lancelot's definition (Efficiency is not defined by how good he is... it's defined by how well he can support Caeda....), because I, personally, find that concept to be, to put things bluntly, stupid, but, if that is what you guys define it as, I have no basis for my arguments, as they're based on what I perceive to be efficiency is in every other tier list (That being not how well you support the best character that is in any given chapter, but how well you help to complete the game). So, what is it? I'm all ears.

[Mekkah]

Jagen remains extremely useful even past Ch10 btw. Highly mobile dude with Ridersbane access never gets old, since the game keeps on sending small groups of cavaliers at you. Even if he ever stops OHKOing (only really occurs outside of WS and you didn't forge enough mt, but ok), he can be part of a trade chain and throw in a Javelin if needed.

[Rewjeo]

The question (which I can't find exactly, but I posted about it earlier and slightly changed the wording, so I remember it, sorta) which asked how many turns Jeigan saves you past earlygame. You said more than Barst. You said more than Barst's entire existence.

[dondon151]

See, here's what you're doing. You're making a big deal over a semantically vague statement, then you're feigning ignorance regarding what was implied when numerous other people have discerned and reaffirmed the correct meaning.

[Anouleth]

Alright, before I post anything else and risk looking like a fool because of it, let me ask a simple question. How do you define efficiency on the Non-Warpskip tier list? I should hope that it would not be Lancelot's definition (Efficiency is not defined by how good he is... it's defined by how well he can support Caeda....), because I, personally, find that concept to be, to put things bluntly, stupid, but, if that is what you guys define it as, I have no basis for my arguments, as they're based on what I perceive to be efficiency is in every other tier list (That being not how well you support the best character that is in any given chapter, but how well you help to complete the game). So, what is it? I'm all ears.

Well, Lancelot's definition might seem stupid, but it's true for this game. It just so happens that 'support the best character that exists' is the exact same thing as 'help to complete the game efficiently' for this game.

Edited June 14, 2010 by Slowking

[Rakath]

What it comes down to, really, is what can be supplemented, and what can't.

Caeda has one thing that others cannot duplicate: Wingspear.

Following that, of the important values to killing things (Movement to get there, Strength to hurt them, Speed to hurt them twice, Skill to hit them). Strength loses value because of forged Might on weapons (Skill loses it more because of the crap dodge formula alongside Weapon forging). Speed and Movement Class Set A have in spades, and Movement isn't something you can just get more of. Especially if you add in flying to the movement.

Incidentally Speed and movement are things Caeda has in spades too.

Minerva and Jagen have movement, speed, enough strength, enough skill.

Barst can never have the same movement, at best you make him a Berserker and give him the boots, and that gives him options a Paladin might lack, but not the sorta thing a Dragon Knight ever worries about.

Of course, I don't do ranked runs, and my favorite character is Est, and I baby her all through endgame to make sure she levels and survives. So what do I know? ^_^

[_____]

I fail to see how. One unit, even the best unit, is not the entire army, and having an entire army based around one unit just seems counterproductive to me. Don't get me wrong, in Warpskip, it's all Caeda, all the time, and that's why I don't argue Warpskip, but her ORKOing of Cavs and Armors just doesn't seem that big of a deal in Non-Warpskip, at least to me. I mean, pretty much anyone can OHKO with an effective weapon in Non-Warpskip, and forging more than one Wing Spear starts to get really, really expensive; 28 uses isn't going to last forever, after all. I'm not arguing Caeda down or anything, but I'm just not seeing how making the game revolve around her is extremely helpful.

Responding to Anouleth, of course.

Edited June 14, 2010 by Ninji

[dondon151]

Forging Wing Spear is expensive? I think it is particularly interesting that on a per-use basis, Wing Spear costs less than Ridersbane or Hammer, and it has the same MT as Ridersbane but 20 more hit. Basically, a Ridersbane that is statistically the equivalent of Wing Spear (before even forging a point of MT) costs an additional 550% of the base cost.

[_____]

Alright, I was mistaken there. I would bring up that anyone can use the Ridersbane, but I suppose that it doesn't matter much.

[Interceptor]

No, it doesn't matter much, especially since not everyone can use Ridersbane. It's true that all class sets have someone who can use lances, but if you don't have the weapon rank for it, you are Shit Out of Luck. Also, Class B's options are terrible.

[_____]

Thus why I said it didn't matter.

[Narga_Rocks]

I fail to see how. One unit, even the best unit, is not the entire army, and having an entire army based around one unit just seems counterproductive to me. Don't get me wrong, in Warpskip, it's all Caeda, all the time, and that's why I don't argue Warpskip, but her ORKOing of Cavs and Armors just doesn't seem that big of a deal in Non-Warpskip, at least to me. I mean, pretty much anyone can OHKO with an effective weapon in Non-Warpskip, and forging more than one Wing Spear starts to get really, really expensive; 28 uses isn't going to last forever, after all. I'm not arguing Caeda down or anything, but I'm just not seeing how making the game revolve around her is extremely helpful.

Responding to Anouleth, of course.

But "efficiency" for feds non-warpskip was basically defined as "Marth taking full move towards the throne whenever possible". Which means that to get higher on the tier list, you should be working towards that goal. As you've pointed out, Caeda is often killed in 2 or 3 hits (I think 3 requires robe or something and being promoted). Obviously she isn't doing that on her own. Wouldn't a unit that can keep up with her be more useful? If you have 2 10 move units charging up alongside her, that seems better than having 2 6 move units helping out. If Caeda will die on her own, then clearly she'd need to hang back with the 6 move guys. That is clearly not helping. Hence, if you can't keep up with Caeda, you've got problems. Now, there are still other jobs like getting chests or whatnot, so you aren't auto-bottomed, but being able to keep up with Caeda is clearly superior to holding her back.

[_____]

A unit that can keep up with Caeda has an advantage over a unit that can't keep up with her; that's certainly true. Having 10 move is always better than having 6 move. That being said, it is not everything. My main problem with this is the Barst vs. Minerva argument. While Minerva wins move and ignores terrain, Barst wins pretty much everything else. 13/1 Hero Barst has 34 HP, 15 Strength, 17 Skill, 10 Defense, and 8 move. I mean, sure, Minerva can keep up with Caeda, but it's a complete bloodbath when it comes to stats. Minerva can't even compete with Barst in anything but Defense, and Barst has been pretty much the second best person on your entire team for the earlygame until Cavs and Armors started to appear in Chapters 4-5, where he's pretty much consistently 3rd or 4th (Wendell is there, too). He's by no means bad. Minerva needs 6 Levels to start doubling Midgame Cavs once you reach Chapter 14. Once things reach the lategame, her only hope seems to be going Sniper and taking down Dracos. I mean, frankly, she's not that good of a character, and yet people are considering that 2 extra move better than everything Barst can do? It just seems insane to me.

[Interceptor]

You say that it's a bloodbath when it comes to stats, but you fail to explain how. Are we just supposed to accept that having better stats makes one better for efficiency, as if this were 2008?

Minerva has auto-A Axes, flying 10MV, and if I need her to double something I can hit her with a Speedwing or two. There is no magic button that gets Barst in the air. Getting a high Axe rank for him is a slow, torturous process. You can argue that Barst wins anyway, but it won't be because +2 MV and flying doesn't matter, it'll be because he's better in spite of those things.

[Narga_Rocks]

A unit that can keep up with Caeda has an advantage over a unit that can't keep up with her; that's certainly true. Having 10 move is always better than having 6 move. That being said, it is not everything. My main problem with this is the Barst vs. Minerva argument. While Minerva wins move and ignores terrain, Barst wins pretty much everything else. 13/1 Hero Barst has 34 HP, 15 Strength, 17 Skill, 10 Defense, and 8 move. I mean, sure, Minerva can keep up with Caeda, but it's a complete bloodbath when it comes to stats. Minerva can't even compete with Barst in anything but Defense, and Barst has been pretty much the second best person on your entire team for the earlygame until Cavs and Armors started to appear in Chapters 4-5, where he's pretty much consistently 3rd or 4th (Wendell is there, too). He's by no means bad. Minerva needs 6 Levels to start doubling Midgame Cavs once you reach Chapter 14. Once things reach the lategame, her only hope seems to be going Sniper and taking down Dracos. I mean, frankly, she's not that good of a character, and yet people are considering that 2 extra move better than everything Barst can do? It just seems insane to me.

Well, the original argument comes from set A > set B, not Minerva > Barst. Barst can be > Minerva without making A > B false.

10 move units (compared to 7, or 8 with Hero). Only set that can fly. Better base weapon rank for swords and bows with two of the classes. still have access to lances and axes for special weapons. Only one with bishop (base staff D instead of E). What's not to love? If you have a unit with similar "Absolute" stats, wouldn't you rather it be type A?

Edited June 14, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[_____]

You say that it's a bloodbath when it comes to stats, but you fail to explain how. Are we just supposed to accept that having better stats makes one better for efficiency, as if this were 2008?

I thought that better stats leading to better combat leading to more efficient playing was a bit obvious. I didn't see the need in explaining how winning in basically everything proved that it was a bloodbath, and I did mention the main problem with Minerva's stats, which would be her lack of doubling into the late-midgame, and her pathetic lategame. If you want, I could go into more detail, but I don't really see you arguing Minerva > Barst, so...

Minerva has auto-A Axes, flying 10MV, and if I need her to double something I can hit her with a Speedwing or two. There is no magic button that gets Barst in the air. Getting a high Axe rank for him is a slow, torturous process. You can argue that Barst wins anyway, but it won't be because +2 MV and flying doesn't matter, it'll be because he's better in spite of those things.

I don't recall saying that 2 Move and Flying didn't matter. In fact, I thought my second to last sentence implied the opposite.

For the record, getting A axes really isn't that hard for Barst from what I've seen, but I tend to take things rather slowly, so it may be a more arduous process when you're playing efficiently. Also, we only get one Speedwing until Chapter 17x. Cavs start packing 12 or 13 AS in Chapter 18. I would hesitate throwing that one Speedwing on Minerva, especially considering her poor lategame performance.

Well, the original argument comes from set A > set B, not Minerva > Barst. Barst can be > Minerva without making A > B false.

10 move units (compared to 7, or 8 with Hero). Only set that can fly. Better base weapon rank for swords and bows with two of the classes. still have access to lances and axes for special weapons. Only one with bishop (base staff D instead of E). What's not to love? If you have a unit with similar "Absolute" stats, wouldn't you rather it be type A?

Set A is better than Set B; on that, I can agree.

[Narga_Rocks]

Well, obviously there is a line past which the stats override the move and flight. Well, depending on the stats of the 10 move flying unit. If you add 2 points to every stat of the 8 move landbound unit except spd, I doubt most quick players would be saying the landbound unit is better (provided the flying one has at least decent stats. Definition of "decent" is pending). But give the landbound unit 10 more in each and 5 more spd? Well, landbound will usually win. Trouble is, this game allows you to forge effective weapons and thus you can OHKO a ton of enemies. As long as the 10 move flying unit can hit accurately enough (and forges can get +hit), it's possible even to win against a unit that has that much better stats. Also weapon ranks play a part, but if they are even then that isn't an issue. I think in shadow dragon particularly, the landbound unit with less move needs to win stats by a lot more than he would in other games in order for him to be better.

And it's true that it was someone else suggesting A = B, not you, Ninji, so that's fine.

[Mr. Francis York Morgan]

I thought that better stats leading to better combat leading to more efficient playing was a bit obvious. I didn't see the need in explaining how winning in basically everything proved that it was a bloodbath, and I did mention the main problem with Minerva's stats, which would be her lack of doubling into the late-midgame, and her pathetic lategame. If you want, I could go into more detail, but I don't really see you arguing Minerva > Barst, so...

Doubling is overrated. OHKo forges are far superior. Anything that she can't double usually Caeda is facing first. Or quite simply Minerva/Abel/Cain/Jeigan/Wendell/Hardin are all gonna gang up on them. In non warpskip Abel/Cain/Hardin can promote not to mention Marth has the rapier to finish off any knight/cav unfortunate enough to be left alive by the cavs/draco spam.

I don't recall saying that 2 Move and Flying didn't matter. In fact, I thought my second to last sentence implied the opposite.

You just didn't appreciate how much it did matter.

For the record, getting A axes really isn't that hard for Barst from what I've seen, but I tend to take things rather slowly, so it may be a more arduous process when you're playing efficiently. Also, we only get one Speedwing until Chapter 17x. Cavs start packing 12 or 13 AS in Chapter 18. I would hesitate throwing that one Speedwing on Minerva, especially considering her poor lategame performance.

Actually A rank axes can take quite some time. He won't be seeing them till after promotion. And he has a hard enough time getting to C ranks as it is. If we assume all the best high move units are in use then he has even bigger issues since he is gonna be seeing far less combat.

I don't think anyone is throwing a Speedwing on her unless they plan on dumping a bunch of other shit either. And I am not even gonna bother arguing it either. Her rank is because of A axes/high move and decent durability. If you can't see past the low stats in how that might be overall more useful in conjuncture with abel/cain/hardin/jeigan/wendell all picking high move classes to provide backup to Caeda then I give up.

Edit: Yea ok you could totally toss the Speedwing on Minerva.

See it's not just Minerva providing backup to Caeda. There's a whole team of dudes. And most of them can consider themselves lucky if they see C rank axes by chapter 20.

Edited June 14, 2010 by Mr. Francis York Morgan

[Interceptor]

I thought that better stats leading to better combat leading to more efficient playing was a bit obvious.

And that's entirely the problem (that you think it's obvious). In the scenario where Minerva can get to something (either countered or otherwise) and Barst cannot, the stat differences are marginalized, if not completely irrelevant. A stat comparison between two characters is not really an accurate predictor of performance in efficient play. Mobility really does make that much of a difference in some games (and this is one of them).

I don't recall saying that 2 Move and Flying didn't matter. In fact, I thought my second to last sentence implied the opposite.

You didn't mention flying in that second-to-last summary sentence. When you consider how dominant that the ability to ignore terrain is in efficient play, this is a pretty serious lapse, since Barst never gets the ability, ever. Your phrasing paints the opposition as giving Minerva a leg up based only on her +MV lead.

You didn't say that, naturally, but since you persist in propping up straw men and knocking them over -- something that pisses me off to no end -- I have no problems with inferring the most absurd ideas from your posts and countering those things. Turnabout is fair play.

For the record, getting A axes really isn't that hard for Barst from what I've seen, but I tend to take things rather slowly, so it may be a more arduous process when you're playing efficiently. Also, we only get one Speedwing until Chapter 17x. Cavs start packing 12 or 13 AS in Chapter 18. I would hesitate throwing that one Speedwing on Minerva, especially considering her poor lategame performance.

As you might expect, your playstyle doesn't really enter into the equation. Barst needs 23 combats with an Axe in order to get to C rank, the minimum required for earlygame utility, which is a stretch when you consider when he actually needs that rank. As for A rank (which is less important), that's no picnic either.

As for the stat boosters, this appears to be some kind of disease that infects everyone who ever plays Fire Emblem, unless they've vaccinated themselves with some cursory exposure to economics. A limited use resource is doing nothing for you when it's burning a hole in your convoy. Getting early utility out of Minerva is potentially preferable to lategame utility from someone else with the same resource, particularly since Minerva does not actually become useless.

Edited June 14, 2010 by Interceptor

[_____]

Well, obviously there is a line past which the stats override the move and flight. Well, depending on the stats of the 10 move flying unit. If you add 2 points to every stat of the 8 move landbound unit except spd, I doubt most quick players would be saying the landbound unit is better (provided the flying one has at least decent stats. Definition of "decent" is pending). But give the landbound unit 10 more in each and 5 more spd? Well, landbound will usually win. Trouble is, this game allows you to forge effective weapons and thus you can OHKO a ton of enemies. As long as the 10 move flying unit can hit accurately enough (and forges can get +hit), it's possible even to win against a unit that has that much better stats. Also weapon ranks play a part, but if they are even then that isn't an issue. I think in shadow dragon particularly, the landbound unit with less move needs to win stats by a lot more than he would in other games in order for him to be better.

Effective weapons only go so far. I mean, we have pretty much unlimited Hammers which can be forged at our leisure, but Poleaxes are a lot more rare (First one we get is in 17x), and any Axe user wants that (even Barst, as not taking a counter is a pretty good deal even if he's ORKOing). Minerva needs to raise her D lances up to C to make use of the Ridersbanes, which would gimp one of her main pros (A Axes) for a little bit, so it's kind of pointless. 10 Move and Flying aren't even that great in the midgame. Chapter 11 has Arrowspate and a Horseman covering the north section and Chapter 13 has 3 Arrowspate Ballistae. Chapter 12 is good for 10 Move if only because it means you can advance more quickly, but flying just means you can't get anywhere near the Sniper or the reinforcements. Chapter 14 has Archers covering the left side, though charging down the right side while bypassing the river to catch the thieves would be pretty good, I guess. Can't argue against flying in Chapter 15. Chapter 16 has Horsemen spawning all over the place. I know it seems like I'm trying to make flying look like it's garbage when we all know it isn't, but it can hinder a unit a decent amount in some of these chapters.

Oh, and Barst's stats are a really big improvement over Minerva's. Compare that 13/1 I posted to base Minerva. 10 HP, 6 Strength, 5 Speed (that 17 was meant to be Speed, but I accidentally wrote it as Skill).

And it's true that it was someone else suggesting A = B, not you, Ninji, so that's fine.

Yeah, I know.