Level ups and 0% growths

[dondon151]

I realize that this question might be better left to PM, but it is more convenient for me to just put this question out in the open. Does anyone know for sure (from testing, of course) if 0% growths increase on a level up if all other stats are capped (CEXP) or if it is 1 of 3 uncapped stats (BEXP)? Rafiel and Leanne have 0% str growth, but it is hard enough to cap all other stats already given their poor bases, poor availability, and poor growths.

[nflchamp]

I realize that this question might be better left to PM, but it is more convenient for me to just put this question out in the open. Does anyone know for sure (from testing, of course) if 0% growths increase on a level up if all other stats are capped (CEXP) or if it is 1 of 3 uncapped stats (BEXP)? Rafiel and Leanne have 0% str growth, but it is hard enough to cap all other stats already given their poor bases, poor availability, and poor growths.

Yes, 0% growths will increase if nothing else can.

EDIT:

Check Rafiel, as I don't believe he hacked.

Edited June 24, 2010 by nflchamp

[CT075]

If you have 0% growths all around, you'll get one random stat up for every level up.

Yes, Dondon, we all know you were going to do a 0% growths run of this game, too

[bunny: spider bitten]

Also, through bonus XP and a robe and virtually any other stat up/decent luck in game, Leanne is maxable.

[BEST TRYNDAMERE PLAYER]

Yes, Dondon, we all know you were going to do a 0% growths run of this game, too

0% Growths on this game would actually be rather hard. Ike would need a SPD transfer and a Speedwing (or two Speedwings if you're not doing transfers) just to be able to fight the BK.

Also, 1-9 would be hell even with Resolve+Dracoshield+Robe on Micaiah.

And let's not forget DB Part 3.

Although with the BEXP system in this game, stat-ups would still be possible seeing as the game's programmed to give you three guaranteed stat-ups so the real question is if a 0% growths run is done, would the person ban the use of BEXP levelups?

Edited June 24, 2010 by Joey

[Anouleth]

The issue is more that regular level-ups will still always give a stat-up.

Although 0% growths is doomed from the beginning. A base level Ike cannot kill the Black Knight, and I'm not sure he'd be able to survive a round from Ashera.

[BEST TRYNDAMERE PLAYER]

Although 0% growths is doomed from the beginning. A base level Ike cannot kill the Black Knight, and I'm not sure he'd be able to survive a round from Ashera.

Now that I think of it, Ike could actually do it with a SPD transfer and two Speedwings or if you're not doing transfers you'll need to dump all three Speedwings on him in order to fight Ashera.

Also, I've had levelups where my units gained NO stats(And no, no stats were capped at the time either)

Edited June 24, 2010 by Joey

[nflchamp]

Also, I've had levelups where my units gained NO stats(And no, no stats were capped at the time either)

You're remembering wrong. There is a mechanic in-game that prevents 0 stat up levels.

EDIT:

Also, 1-9 would be hell even with Resolve+Dracoshield+Robe on Micaiah.

I can 8 turn 1-9 w/ Micaiah doing anything <_<

And let's not forget DB Part 3.

We, as a community, have already theory-crafted easy button Part 3 for DB. Might as well see if it works.

Edited June 24, 2010 by nflchamp

[Narga_Rocks]

We, as a community, have already theory-crafted easy button Part 3 for DB. Might as well see if it works.

3-6 and 3-12 should work. Heck, Int's done the 3-6 one before. The trouble lies in 3-13. Obviously block the ledges and use Tauroneo + sothe in the two spots you actually take enemy attacks. Trouble, though, is hawks. I think there is one that can't be brought down by ballista before it gets close enough to attack units. With a few levels of growths on a couple of DB units you can take that without anything dying so it isn't a problem even with easy button. You'll get enough levels during part 1, I think, to prevent that. Without growths? I don't know. Maybe just let someone die and have Nolan w/ crossbow nearby (Leo stuck on right ballista with Meg support to be more accurate than archer there). Actually, Nolan won't be OHKOd so he'd probably do fine just using the crossbow to counter-kill the thing.

[dondon151]

Although 0% growths is doomed from the beginning. A base level Ike cannot kill the Black Knight, and I'm not sure he'd be able to survive a round from Ashera.

Speedwings + promotion gives Ike 27 AS, so he's not doubled (Speedwings is a good investment on Ike anyway with his base 23 AS for part 3). Ike has 65 atk with Hammer against BK's 70 HP, 35 +5 def. BK has 56 atk with Alondite against Ike's 48 HP, 23 +10 def. Ike just barely survives 2 hits and 3HKOs BK in return, but the BK gains back 18 HP per turn from Imbue. Which means, if BK starts off an enemy phase with 32 or less HP, Ike will win on the player phase attack. If Ike hits on every attack, it should take 4 enemy phases and a player phase. 5 uses of Hammer. Ike will probably have a heaven support of some sort at that point (because he needs to hit Ashera) and, if I can afford it, some Secret Books as well.

[Anouleth]

I guess that means you're using Lethe, since the only alternative Heaven affinity unit that Ike can build a support with before Endgame is lolMeg.

[dondon151]

Elincia? Tibarn? Rafiel? Especially Rafiel.

[Narga_Rocks]

I guess that means you're using Lethe, since the only alternative Heaven affinity unit that Ike can build a support with before Endgame is lolMeg.

If only their leveling speed didn't suck (tougher to get to their masteries), laguz would be pretty helpful for a 0% growths game due to many of them relying largely on strike rank for their ability.

@dondon:

Rafiel only, pretty much. His conditions were "before Endgame". Whether that is necessary is up for debate, of course, but Ike can't actually build support with Elincia or Tibarn before Endgame.

[dondon151]

Ike can still easily get a C support with either of them before 4-E-3, though, which is still +9 hit (I admit that I skipped over those 2 words in Anouleth's post). But yeah, Ike has 2 chapters with Rafiel before 4-E, and he probably won't be doing much in them. I will have to refer to your support research.

And while Ulki and Janaff should get their masteries in no time (BEXP har har), Volug might not even get there and 4 levels might even be too much for Ranulf and Skrimir.

Edited June 24, 2010 by dondon151

[BEST TRYNDAMERE PLAYER]

You're remembering wrong. There is a mechanic in-game that prevents 0 stat up levels.

I suppose if anything you could just make it so a useless stat such as MAG for all physical units are 100% growth(Although this can make Imbue an amazingly epic skill) and 100% STR growth for all magic users(Nobody except Sanaki gets weighed down by tomes at base level, other than the 3-10 range tomes ofc but even then it's not by a lot).

[Fenrir]

3-6 and 3-12 should work. Heck, Int's done the 3-6 one before. The trouble lies in 3-13. Obviously block the ledges and use Tauroneo + sothe in the two spots you actually take enemy attacks. Trouble, though, is hawks. I think there is one that can't be brought down by ballista before it gets close enough to attack units. With a few levels of growths on a couple of DB units you can take that without anything dying so it isn't a problem even with easy button. You'll get enough levels during part 1, I think, to prevent that. Without growths? I don't know. Maybe just let someone die and have Nolan w/ crossbow nearby (Leo stuck on right ballista with Meg support to be more accurate than archer there). Actually, Nolan won't be OHKOd so he'd probably do fine just using the crossbow to counter-kill the thing.

I swear to god, everyone that i used besides miciah and a sealed nolan, who hardly helped, was at base level, sothe volug and taureneo. I did not have Laura or Zihark, both dead, i still beat 3-13, Tauroneo guards one side in front of bastilla, and the other is guarded by sothe/Volug, you have nolan and sothe or volug( whoever isn't defending) standing behind your main defenders, and they rescue the 3-13 archerS, and when a hawk comes close, drop in the archer on ballista and bam they die.

If this is what your asking for, i was just really proud of myself for doing it.

[Narga_Rocks]

I swear to god, everyone that i used besides miciah and a sealed nolan, who hardly helped, was at base level, sothe volug and taureneo. I did not have Laura or Zihark, both dead, i still beat 3-13, Tauroneo guards one side in front of bastilla, and the other is guarded by sothe/Volug, you have nolan and sothe or volug( whoever isn't defending) standing behind your main defenders, and they rescue the 3-13 archerS, and when a hawk comes close, drop in the archer on ballista and bam they die.

The part about conserving the ballista uses is obvious. The trouble is that I think there may be a hawk going up the middle. Lots of people have complained about one that the ballistas "can't reach". If you look at the map, you can see it is theoretically possible as there is at least one square within 9 tiles (a hawk's move) of the line that is not in range of either ballista. The only difficulty in this map is dealing with a single hawk. Everything else is cake. I've always had leveled units so I can't actually remember any difficult hawks, but if people are claiming that a hawk can skirt the two ballistas and break your line then you are going to need someone else to deal with that hawk. It's entirely possible that you can use big T, though. Hawk + Tiger shouldn't kill him. At least, I think it won't. Then Nolan crossbow and the only danger to the map is dealt with.

[Anouleth]

Anyway, any playthrough where there's a chance of Renning being used is a playthrough I support.

[Interceptor]

It's not a middle hawk that's the problem, it's the right-side hawk. And I use the word "problem" loosely, because all that happens is that it can make it to the person guarding the far right side of the ledge. Put someone there that can take one round from the hawk (Volug is fine), and then kill it on Player Phase. That's all that need be done.

[dondon151]

Well, Volug can conceivably ORKO Ike, so I might be able to finish the chapter quickly.

[Fenrir]

The part about conserving the ballista uses is obvious. The trouble is that I think there may be a hawk going up the middle. Lots of people have complained about one that the ballistas "can't reach". If you look at the map, you can see it is theoretically possible as there is at least one square within 9 tiles (a hawk's move) of the line that is not in range of either ballista. The only difficulty in this map is dealing with a single hawk. Everything else is cake. I've always had leveled units so I can't actually remember any difficult hawks, but if people are claiming that a hawk can skirt the two ballistas and break your line then you are going to need someone else to deal with that hawk. It's entirely possible that you can use big T, though. Hawk + Tiger shouldn't kill him. At least, I think it won't. Then Nolan crossbow and the only danger to the map is dealt with.

It is possible to fix that using intercepter's method, but there's still a problem with that.

It's not a middle hawk that's the problem, it's the right-side hawk. And I use the word "problem" loosely, because all that happens is that it can make it to the person guarding the far right side of the ledge. Put someone there that can take one round from the hawk (Volug is fine), and then kill it on Player Phase. That's all that need be done.

but, the hawk will canto away, and it will move out of your range, canto behind tigers etc. therefore you must use the ballista,

[dondon151]

A unit cannot canto away if he has no movement left.

[dondon151]

Thanks to everyone who helped; I managed to get a working 0% growths! It seems that if all stats have 0% growth, you will always get +HP on a CEXP level up... either that, or I forgot to change the HP growth.

[Narga_Rocks]

Thanks to everyone who helped; I managed to get a working 0% growths! It seems that if all stats have 0% growth, you will always get +HP on a CEXP level up... either that, or I forgot to change the HP growth.

Is that a good thing? I mean, it's probably better than getting speed or something, but you are looking at anyone you use capping hp after some time.

Actually, when hp caps, str would probably start next.

Then again, anyone with enough levels to get massive hp/str is probably going to be rather bad before they get to that stage due to enemy spd being pretty good in this game. It probably doesn't matter since most units will probably not be around long enough to get even 10 levels.

[Mekkah]

Even if there is no way to actually prevent stats from going up on an edited ISO, you could always go back and consider the goal. I believe the point was to show the game can be beaten efficiently even if you get the worst luck possible on level-ups.

The worst luck possible on a normal level-up is now not 0 but 1 stat. HP is easily among the worse stats, though it might matter at times. You could probably leave another stat's growth intact if you believe that one is worse (you can argue only growing luk is worse than only growing HP).

For BEXP, the best you could do is do level-ups and reset until you get really bad stuff, like hp/luk/res. Or only BEXP people to 99.