Magic tomes.

[SorenThePichu]

I was wondering why mages even need magic tomes.

I can understand that they need to learn the chants from the magic tomes, however I was wondering why they're necessary after the chant has been learned.

1) The chants cannot be so long that they cannot be remembered fairly easily. I know this because the mages can cast a magic spell about as quickly as any physical unit can swing their axes and swords and stab with their lances, as shown by animations.

2) Nino, in her support conversation with Erk, clearly states that she could cast anima magic without the aid of a tome or staff just by imitating Sonia as they chanted. This disproves any theories about the tome itself containing the magical power and that the mage "activates" said power by chanting. (Nino's Erk support conversation)

3) In the battle animations, mages, shamans, monks and other spellcasters are not shown reading from a book. Unless for some strange reason the mage is concealing the book somehow, it means that again the tome does not contain any magical power. (In fact, Bishops point their staves at the opponent to attack them IIRC, so it makes me wonder why they don't use some form of "damaging stave" to attack. It's clear that staves aren't designed completely for the aid of others since the Berserk stave exists, which causes someone to essentially go insane.)

(Also, I was wondering why mages cannot cast a load of differing spells from a single tome - my first point argues that the chants can't be ridiculously long, so why can only one spell be fit in a massive tome?)

Yes, I'm aware that if mages didn't require tomes they'd be amazingly broken gameplay-wise, but IS never explain why the mages require tomes to my knowledge, which to me just seems rather lazy. Also, if this topic's quesion has been covered before, I offer my deepest appologies, but it's almost midnight where I live and I wanted to post this before I go to bed, causing me to only have enough time to have a quick look at the other topics in this forum.

[Chalis]

I was always under the impression that the magician classes used tomes as mediums. Either that or a wizard did it.

Casting takes a sacrifice of some kind, used to be hit points.

Oh right, Gaiden.

Edited June 28, 2010 by Bambi

[El Rey León]

Radiant Dawn and Shadow Dragon's spell animation has them using books. I never quit got it either, especially how tomes "break". Does activating the spell require them to rip out a page or what? Are they actually powerless without a book? That's dumb since I'm used to stories where magic comes from within. Well, IS had to place some restriction on them and since wizards are known for carrying spellbooks, they chose tomes and made them break along with other weapons in the name of "balance".

[SorenThePichu]

Did they? I never actually turned the animations on for those. I was going completely off of the GBA animations, since the GBA games have my favourite graphics.

[rn7]

Casting takes a sacrifice of some kind, used to be hit points. Then when mages were like, man I hate cutting myself just to throw fireballs, they strapped farm animals to their back to offer to the magic dimension. But that proved highly impractical for battlefield application.

Dumbfounded, they went back to the library to find another means of powering their magic. They tried things like swords and spears, but always managed to mess it up some way, resulting in the same amount of cuts as they had when they just knifed themselves. Sometimes more as well, swords don't take too kindly to be sacrificed. They explode.

It was back to square one for the mages, and they sobbed silently into their piles of books. One day a dastardly villain attacked, unwilling to pay his late fee. The mages, unable to use normal people logic to subdue this guy, opted not to chuck their several pound heavy books at him. Rather, they raised their hands up in the air and flailed them wildly in panic. Misinterpreting this as a ritualistic sacrifice, the magic god accepted the gift of books and granted the mages the ability to harness magic through the tomes. They burned the entire library down and failed to take out the guy with late books.

The novelization of these events were documented in the magic tomes you see today. However, due to a grievous typo that painted the mages in a not so favorable light, the mages decided to recall all the books and burn them before people heard the real story. Unfortunately for them, multiple tomes were already written, in multiple languages and multiple chapters. Unable to stop the presses, the mages turned it into a clever marketing campaign, claiming that the user would be able to use magic if he were to rip out a page of the book and destroy it. The destruction of tomes is merely a conspiracy perpetrated by these wily mages. If you have any doubt, just look at those magic swords. Clearly experiments brought forth by mages tinkering with alternative means of using magic.

[Magna]

Soren reading from a book, though it's only a cutscene.

My guess is that the spell in the book needs to be activated. Upon activation, the writings may disappear or rendered useless from the book.

Since the effect of the spell depends from the character's magic affinity, Nino's situation might be explained because of her high potential but, nevertheless, a writing had to be used, in her case for Sonia's. Nino having extreme potential might've allowed that spell to be duplicated.It could also be different for each universe.

Anyway, the most logic solution might have been for the sake of balance by IS. I'm trying to imagine a magic spell system similar to laguz strikes now... magic users not affected by weight for their AS

[rn7]

The Fire Emblem games might not all take place in the same universe with the same rules, so that might not be constant.

[Rewjeo]

And it's possible that you can either take the power from the books' "HP" or your own hit points. So while you can use them without books, it causes you to damage yourself. The books let you use it without injury.

[Momo]

To cast magic, the mage must devour a page from the tome.

[whase]

magic doesn't exist, they use special effects and then throw their book at the opponents head...

on a serious note, the only time they actually read the book in the animation is in shadow dragon's critical(mage)

(for as far as I know)

[rn7]

Does that mean mages carry around 40+ books at any given time? Or does the book come back like a boomerang?

[whase]

Does that mean mages carry around 40+ books at any given time? Or does the book come back like a boomerang?

come back like a boomerang, just like javelins.

[Strawman]

Ah but, the magic HAS to be in the tome considering in descriptions of tomes its says something like "a difficult tome to master" IIRC. SO I'm thinking it is just there is a magic tome that the mage has to use in some form. Maybe initially they have to read it but as become better mages they just have to hold it or have it with them. Additionally, the "breaking" of the tomes could be interpreted as all of the magic power being used up. Also, as to why they need one tome just for one spell is because these spells are ancient and difficult to perform, they are not simple(though this can probably be proved somewhat false by the Nino support).

[rn7]

come back like a boomerang, just like javelins.

The general has a chain on his, so it's just like Scorpion.

[Integrity]

My response:

The magic is on the pages/in the book, activated by the magic words outlined in the book. Therefore, most mages would learn Fire by reading the words from the page, then later reciting the words from memory while holding the book. In each case, one magic charge/one page of the book is spent. Think of the book, therefore, as a reagent. The practiced mage doesn't need to actively use the reagent in his spells, but the reagent must still be consumed.

Nino's special case was that she skipped the reading and memorizing part. She memorized Fire entirely by listening to Sonia practice it - she still needed the book with her, she just didn't have to read the words because she already had them memorized. Ostensibly, she wouldn't be able to learn any other magic on her own without some guidance, because she wouldn't be able to read the words to learn new spells - see her intense desire to learn to read (Erk, Canas, )

@OP: Nino never says she didn't need the book. She says, in fact, that Sonia would hold the book like so and chant the words. Nino memorized the words and, I'd imagine, held the book open in the same fashion and it worked. The reason it's remarkable would be because the words are very specific/intricate, so to memorize them by listening and get all the stresses and shit right would be a feat unimaginable.

s'my take on it, anyhow.

[VincentASM]

Kaga described a little about how magic worked in FE3, which supports tomes being some form of medium. You also need to read the books to acquire the mental concentration needed to cast the spell.

Q3: What is magic in the world of Fire Emblem?

Comment: Originally primitive deities existed at Akaneia and people believed these deities existed in all things. To lead mankind, Gato utilised the power of these deities. Magic (both offensive and recovery) is about as advanced as the dragon race's technology, but it was difficult and dangerous for humans to use. Gato convinced humans to borrow the deities' powers and warned them at the same time. So fire magic comes from the deity of fire, wind magic is borrowed from the deity of wind and etc. Magic is thus the technology where one harnesses energy that exists naturally. Spell books and staves can be thought of as vessels that store this energy. To release this energy requires a certain amount of skill, such as by chanting keywords or through mental control techniques. In order to acquire a sufficient skill level, one must undergo self-training. Prayers to the deities seems to reveal the keywords, while it also raises one's mental capacity. Meanwhile, to protect the most powerful spells, like Aura or Excalibur, Gato attached a contract to them so that only the user could wield them. The same kind of protection was also placed on the Falchion.

Edited June 29, 2010 by VincentASM

[Xiltas Crysten]

The tomes do not actually "break", after they are used for a specific amount of time, they just vanish into thin air.

This was stated in the support between Hugh and Rei, the C support:

C Support

Hugh: Hey!

Ray: Oh.

Hugh: There you are! I never would've guessed you'd be here in this army. I've been looking all over for you!

Ray: ...Well, I sure wasn't looking for you.

Hugh: Taking advantage of my kindness like that... This is why I don't like kids. Now give me back my Resire book.

Ray: Ah, yes. That thing.

Hugh: ...You haven't used it up already, have you?

Ray: ......

Hugh: ...Hey...

Ray: ...Calm down, I've got it. I was just borrowing it. I was planning on giving it back to you some day.

Hugh: Y-You little runt... You said you just wanted to see it for a sec, so I lent it to you. I wasn't expecting you to take it and run off!

Ray: Look, I've said this a million times. I'm borrowing it, not stealing it.

Hugh: Well, when are you going to return it?

Ray: Well, let's see... I suppose I'll give it back to you after I use it twenty times.

Hugh: You'd better keep your word!

Ray: Of course.

*Ray leaves*

Hugh: ...Oh, well, I guess I'll just have to wait... ...Whoa, wait a minute! It'll be gone by the time you use it twenty times!

[Narga_Rocks]

The tomes do not actually "break", after they are used for a specific amount of time, they just vanish into thin air.

This was stated in the support between Hugh and Rei, the C support:

That's certainly one possible interpretation of that statement. I don't think it's the only one. To anyone that can read Japanese, is it less ambiguous in the original language?

In English "Gone" could mean "useless", or "the magic's gone" or something that basically means the book will be worthless then.

[VincentASM]

The part in question is:

・・・ったく

しょうがねえな・・・

っておい！？

２０も使ったらなくなるだろうが！

I'm just going off my dictionary here, but なくなる [nakunaru] has at least three meanings.

1. Run out, eg. run out of oxygen

2. Be missing, eg. the book is missing a page

3. Be gone or disappear, eg. the book has disappeared

Not sure if the context of the sentence would help to distinguish which one it is.

[TheEnd]

The part in question is:

I'm just going off my dictionary here, but なくなる [nakunaru] has at least three meanings.

1. Run out, eg. run out of oxygen

2. Be missing, eg. the book is missing a page

3. Be gone or disappear, eg. the book has disappeared

Not sure if the context of the sentence would help to distinguish which one it is.

3.

[Narga_Rocks]

3.

so context implies "gone = disappear" rather than "gone = run out of uses"? Well then, books disappear when you burn them out. Neat.

[Anouleth]

Why are some books heavier than others? Gleipnir weighs 20, as does Fenrir, (which is much as a massive Steel Poleaxe or a Ballista), and five times as heavy as say, a Fire tome and 20 times as much as a FE9 Wind tome. It can't be that there are more spells, since Bolting has only 5 uses. And it can't be that the spells take longer to read, since heavy Gleipnir has 30 uses.

[Integrity]

Concentration on the intricacies slows you down, and strength represents, uh, magical...dexterity, too? Boyd is incredibly quick.

Maybe the books are actually that heavy. Maybe they cause a burden on the soul.

[Rewjeo]

That would explain why dark magic weighs so much. And maybe light as well, I guess.

Edited June 30, 2010 by Slize

[whase]

on spell books only magical gravity counts, it can't be explained to simple souls like us...