H3 (Lunatic) Tier List

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Fuck it.

THE OFFICIAL DECISION IS:

- Rainbow Potion is assumed as a +2 to all stats booster for three units per chapter. Obviously this does not include cap-ramming MU or lolhealbots, but most anyone else will be fair game.

- Maturity Drop is not assumed on any one character, nor will it be without some EXTREMELY compelling evidence. Bond Drop is the same.

- WiFi shop is STILL not assumed. Its weapons and promo items do not exist.

- Lunatic Clear Stat Booster discussion is acceptable within reason, but bear in mind that advocating a significant number of stat boosters in the earlygame will likely not be considered due to funding limits.

To complement this decision, I'm going to do a logged playthrough using the Rainbow Potion. Expect it up in the next day or two.

Edited September 2, 2010 by Seven Deadly Sins

[grandjackal]

Well, think of it like this. Warp staff in Shadow Dragon H5 is available to everyone. Yet there is a tier list that doesn't assume warpskipping simply because it trivializes the game more than it should despite shaving a shitload of turns off. Rainbow Potion is one of these items that can make the game substantially easier. Besides, after clearing Lunatic once you do get access to prep-shops with statboosters and that already lightens the load by a lot and can make units who weren't useable without those statboosters into something great instead of having to have a 6-7man show consisting of Sirius, MU, Palla, Catria, Shiida, possibly Luke, and Feena featuring earlygame!Arran. Rainbow Potion, along with the prep-store statboosters can possibly trivialize the earlygame in a way.

1. I would hardly call helping someone get 3RKOd to be trivializing the game.

2. It's far easier to justify the Rainbow Potion for a nooblet getting into the army than a full blown stat booster because I have 77 Rainbow Potions of which didn't cost me a single piece of gold.

3. Earlygame is already the easiest part of the game namely because I can't be so easily screwed earlygame. There are no lategame safety units to keep me afloat if someone in my army got screwed. Besides, if you so choose you can just reserve it for anyone who gets screwed.

If anything, I feel you have it backwards.

Fuck it.

THE OFFICIAL DECISION IS:

- Rainbow Potion is assumed as a +2 to all stats booster for three units per chapter. Obviously this does not include cap-ramming MU or lolhealbots, but most anyone else will be fair game.

In all fairness, you might not even need it 3 times every chapter.

- Maturity Drop is not assumed on any one character, nor will it be without some EXTREMELY compelling evidence. Bond Drop is the same.

I can only think of Marth truly wanting it, if only just to help his chances of not getting screwed endgame. Otherwise I can't think of anyone who cares for the Maturity, same with the Bond Drop.

- Lunatic Clear Stat Booster discussion is acceptable within reason, but bear in mind that advocating a significant number of stat boosters in the earlygame will likely not be considered due to funding limits.

This is hte magic of the Rainbow Potion, it can allow temporary boosts without costing us money, and once shards enter the picture it's much easier to just patch someone right up. 4 speed off the bat is pretty significant, or possibly +6 Str.

To complement this decision, I'm going to do a logged playthrough using the Rainbow Potion. Expect it up in the next day or two.

I suppose I better get a topic going for the Rainbow Potion. If nothing else, it could help you out with some suggestions chapter by chapter of which you are free to shoot down with experience in the playthrough.

[Rodykitty]

Warp staff in Shadow Dragon H5 is available to everyone. Yet there is a tier list that doesn't assume warpskipping simply because it trivializes the game more than it should despite shaving a shitload of turns off. Rainbow Potion is one of these items that can make the game substantially easier.

There is not a lot that is comparable to the Warp Staff in sheer game skipping power, not even the Mine Glitch. I highly doubt Rainbow Drops will justify having different tier lists at all.

2. It's far easier to justify the Rainbow Potion for a nooblet getting into the army than a full blown stat booster because I have 77 Rainbow Potions of which didn't cost me a single piece of gold.

Fixing pro unit's minor problems will most likely be much better than trying to make nooblets closer to high tier units. Edited September 2, 2010 by Super FE3 Player

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Fixing pro unit's minor problems will most likely be much better than trying to make nooblets closer to high tier units.

This, this, a thousand times this. Just like with contested stat boosters, forges, and other resources with limited use, Rainbow Potion will not be grounds to move a unit out of Free Silvers without VERY COMPELLING EVIDENCE.

[grandjackal]

This, this, a thousand times this. Just like with contested stat boosters, forges, and other resources with limited use, Rainbow Potion will not be grounds to move a unit out of Free Silvers without VERY COMPELLING EVIDENCE.

Well no crap. All I'm saying is that 77 uses should be more than enough, and that a use here and there wouldn't exactly kill us. Now, repeated use just to be usable is obviously a no go, but it only takes 1 use for Sammy to be a spare armorslayer when trying to reach Joel. After that, just bin him. Obviously it would be a rare occurance to be so screwed that you need Sammy's help, but at least he's capable of that in a pinch.

But hey, you could pretty much toss everyone from near bottom of Mid tier and below into Free Silvers under that assumption because so few in this game actually qualify as pro units. If you want a unit that goes from "good to pro" thanks to the potion, best I got for you is Navarre (whom we were arguing not long ago would need an early promotion to work out in his debut chapter, thanks to the Rainbow Potion he doesn't need to promote so early and can get some unpromoted fast levels under his belt before we do so), Cain (Because he basically is another Navarre with Lance rank), and Frey. Otherwise I'm pretty sure half the existing list not already in Free Silvers could be cut off and dumped down there.

[Rodykitty]

Uses like Navarre seem to be obvious and don't need much explanation, but aren't going to be notable in the face of applications for your already existing and useful units.

[grandjackal]

Uses like Navarre seem to be obvious and don't need much explanation, but aren't going to be notable in the face of applications for your already existing and useful units.

I'm having a brain glitch, but I feel you just said that it doesn't change much about the high tier units. While obviously it wouldn't rise or drop anyone from high tier out of being replaced by someone suddenly miraculously rising from mid tier or lower, it does mix it up a bit in high tier as well. Sirius is a good example.

Cavaliers in chapter 5 have around 27 or 28 ATK, and dracos have around 25-27 ATK. Draco Sirius with Rainbow Potion has 15 Def and 26 HP. He's 3RKOd for the most part (the ones with 28 ATK are cavs of which he has lances and axes, thus can adjust the damage and lower it through nulling rank with his WTA, can reduce sword might by 4 thanks to A rank in lances with the rank nulling, of which he would be 4RKOd in that case by the weaker 27 ATK ones). 15 AS doubles their 11 AS. Their HP is around 34-35, and Def around 6-7. With 1 Str and A rank lances, he can kill weaker cavs with iron, steel working for the rest. I recall armors having 9 Def, but nothing 30 might with Silver can't fix. Someone like Shiida is no way in hell pulling this sort of stuff off without her rare Wing Spear, and even then will clearly lose durability with her 21 HP and 9 Def as a cav. She can't do this while flying, because 19 HP and 7 Def gets OHKOd (2 HP and 1 Def to make it consistent of which takes around 4 levels to do...in her defense though, she does have prologue), and even then she's not matching his durability against dracos, nor his offense (they have 14 AS, she cannot double. Even if she could (4 levels with 95% speed with 15 base AS could work out), 7 Str with Steel (since she only has D rank) is 16 might versus Sirius's 30 with Silver. I believe they have 9 Def. She would be doing 7x2 damage to his 21.).

In the least, it lets him do what Shiida does without such a rare and low use weapon, while being tougher.

[fatgamecat]

Wing spears are not rare. They are in shops all over the game. I got to ch 20 Lunatic on a single +1 wing spear with 6 uses left on it. You want Shiida to be a cavalier for Ch 5, so she can help with the base assault. It's worth giving her an angelic robe to start out with and it will help her durability as a draco or falco.

I'm finding Sirius to be a bit stale in my current speedrun of Lunatic, due to his mediocre base stats. The rainbow drop would help him but it's not going to make him more useful than Shiida.

Edited September 3, 2010 by mjemirzian

[Charged151]

Now that the Rainbow Potion is in play, I feel that Rody should be moved up since his biggest problem (base stats) are no longer as big of an issue. Considering what to compare him to, the fact is Luke is going to end up as a Swordmaster (He gets a D in Swords as a Cavalier) for most people, while Rody is going to end up as likely a Horseman/Sniper (Due to starting with a E in Swords). Thus, Rody needs to be compared against Draug, the other unit you would likely use as eventually a Horseman/Sniper. Before mentioning this, Rody availability in the Prologue allows him to some level ups (although he still may be a level or two behind Draug), but the Rainbow Potion makes it less of an issue. Now, looking at the Base Growth Rates...

Rody HP 40Atk 35Mag 0Skl 35Spd 55Lck 60Def 25Res 10

DraugHP 20Atk 25Mag 0Skl 30Spd 50Lck 40Def 25Res 10

So, Rody has +20 Hp, +10 Atk, +5 Skl, +5 Spd, and +20 Lck over Draug... Draug has nothing on him in terms of growths.

Of course, others would argue that Draug still comes with better bases and also could also use the Rainbow Potion to just make himself better. However, My Unit and Luke have two way supports with him, plus Ryan and Cecil (if for whatever reason you are happening to use them), which could count for a lot in Chapters like 18 where you have to make an enemy pull in which avoiding would help a lot in correctly making the enemy not gang up on any particular unit.

Thus, I would advise placing him above Draug and below Luke, primarily because of better availability, growths, and supports. The only thing Draug has over him is base stats, and since the Rainbow Potion remedies this primarily early game issue, it isn't as big of an issue.

Anyway, what do you guys think?

[Rodykitty]

So, Rody has +20 Hp, +10 Atk, +5 Skl, +5 Spd, and +20 Lck over Draug... Draug has nothing on him in terms of growths.

Which equates to, based on averages, +4 HP after 20 levels, +2 Str after 20 levels, +1 Ski & Spd over 20 levels, and more growth in a fairly crappy stat.

Draug exceeds every one of those gains besides luck just from his bases.

Growth rates suck, bye.

Edited September 4, 2010 by Super FE3 Player

[grandjackal]

I think you're underestimating just how bad Roddy's bases are, and just how much EXP prologue has. To give you an idea, Draug's bases with the Rainbow Potion and going Cavalier are as destructive as anyone competent with a rainbow use. Might not have a durability lead like various MU builds could, but most of the team doesn't have that either. But, as for my proof.

Draug has 12 base speed as a cav, and enemies have 10-9 Speed in chapter 1. Bam, Rainbow fixes that problem. Draug has 9 Str and D lances, Rainbow giving him +2 might for 20 might. Enemies have 2 Def and 31-32 HP. Even with WTD, he still ORKOs.

To match this, Roddy needs to somehow gain 3 Str and 5 Spd in that time. Let's just think how muh he needs to get lol 5 speed. As a cav, he's got 65% Speed growth. He needs 8 levels to get that. Doubling as a cav is out of the question, because most can't even get Luke 6 levels in that time.

But hey, let's give Roddy those 6 levels. 3 Str and 3 Spd. Well, he can double as a Myrm without the potion, but have fun with 7 Str and 5 might iron swords. Throwing a Potion on that is like saying I want to set fire to money, it's a bad idea. 14 might with that potion thrown on won't even kill hunters (27 HP, 2 Def). Even going Merc for the +1 Str won't kill hunters. Now, giving those levels to Luke I could have someone with 1 Str and Spd advantage on TOP of D Swords so I can bust out Steel. 18 Might gets the job done on Bandits as well as hunters so Luke is effectively beating Roddy out of every offensive outlet, as is Draug.

To match that performance, not only do I have to give 6 levels of EXP to Roddy instead of Luke, I have to forge 3 might onto an iron sword. Why spend more resources on him when Luke can do the same just acting normally, and what Draug can do essentially for free? Roddy is never gonna be any more durable than these two (20% better HP growth isn't going to fix anything), none of these guys will have speed problems so his "future speed lead" is irrelevent, what will Roddy ever have to brag about? 2 more STR on Draug in the distant future?

So yeah, Roddy still sucks even with Rainbow Potion in mind.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

In my Rainbow Potion playthrough, Luke came out at level 7, and was good. Could ORKO the bandits in Ch1 with the potion, and could double them anyway as a merc even without the potion. Rody's not even coming close to being as useful. D Swords is really a big deal for Luke because of the glut of axe users that show up early and the general lack of power on ranged weapons making up for the fact that Swords don't have any real ranged options, and then you have the fact that Rody's bases are disgustingly bad. He's not good in prologue, which makes levelling him hard, and even if you level him there, he's simply "not good". A failure on all counts.

[fatgamecat]

Rody's growths do allow him to pull ahead of Draug, let me do the math for you. At 20/20 Hunter->Horseman Rody will have (ignoring class caps) 52.40 hp, 27.90 str, 28.00 skl, 38.40 spd, 27.80 lck, 16.40 def, and 6.80 res. Hunter->Horseman Draug Draug will have 43.80 hp, 24.85 str, 23.85 skl, 37.75 spd, 16.20 lck, 15.90 def, and 3.00 res at 20/20.

Talking about Rody as a cavalier is pointless. Yes, we know he sucks as a cavalier, most units do except for the ridiculous My Unit or Catria or Shiida w/ her Wing Spear. He's good as a high SPD bow user and best compared to hunter Draug. It'd be foolish to not level either Rody or Draug as a hunter, as you have pretty much no other option for leveling a good bow user. I don't recommend giving him a lot of levels during the prologue as his growths are better as a hunter. He'll naturally gain levels as a hunter during Ch 2-3 as there are plenty of dracos and other targets to shoot down. I wouldn't take Rody over Draug but he is far from a worthless unit, in fact he is one of the few units that can hang in a low turn count speedrun that this tier list is based on, which makes him far more useful than the late joiners and prepromotes that are placed above him who will be dead weight if you try to slot them into a team by the time they join.

His bases are 1 point lower than Luke in STR and SPD. They are not bad for a lv 1 unit. Cite numbers if you're going to be making hyperbolic statements like 'disgustingly bad', so we can see that you're just exaggerating.

I've successfully run Rody through my lunatic with speedrun times and although I would take Draug if I had to choose again, I do think Rody is a far more useful high SPD bow user than you're giving him credit for, and the Rainbow Potion would significantly help out while he gets out of that 500XP lead Draug has on him. And yes, his support for MU is worth considering.

Edited September 5, 2010 by mjemirzian

[Charged151]

Just did some quick calculations, and both Rody and Draug cap strength and speed on average. With this in mind, it will take more effort to get Rody up and going than Draug, but he still has the supports over Draug though, that NO ONE else mentioned (EDIT, mjemirzian did)... I guess Draug does beat out Rody early game, but considering they both cap strength and speed and considering he is better than Draug late game thanks to his supports, Rody beats out Draug at least then. Anyway, he is possible to use, is not a total failure, and I am glad that mjemirzian agrees with me. Mainly, he just has a harder time early game, where MU is likely dominating anyway. Note, I NEVER said that Rody was better than Luke. Anyway, judging by some of the complete negativity in some responses, something is up. Note, I feel like I am having to repeat myself, and the fact mjemirzian posted when he did meant that I had to do a fair bit of editing, lol.

Another edit, if what mjemirzian is saying is true, than Luke can still get all the level ups in the prologue he needs without Rody having to steal much experience from him. Also good to know.

Edited September 5, 2010 by Charged151

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Rody is not going above Draug.

E bows are bad enough to start with, but take into account the gaps in bases.

Draug has +2 HP, +3 Strength, +5 Speed (!!!), and +1 Def over Rody. That's a hell of a lot of ground for Rody to make up, especially considering that it means Rody is going to take quite a while to start doubling stuff, while Draug only needs 2 speed procs (with a 75% growth, not terribly unlikely) to start doubling everything with a Rainbow Potion use. Also, consider that if Rody has 7 Strength as a Hunter, he's only dealing 13 damage to 9 def Dracos in Ch. 2, and 11 to the boss.

Rody is spending a lot of time being mediocre to become "ok" in the midgame, and his leads are not big enough lategame to make them especially relevant. I might see him up somewhat, but not in the same tier as Draug.

[fatgamecat]

Nobody is arguing he's better than Draug. I think he's better than a lot of the cast currently above him, though. The whole mid and lower tiers are not in very good shape. The top tier is more or less good, though, which I suppose is the most important thing. Although I think more respect needs to be paid to Malliesia as she is a critical unit if you want low turn counts because she is the only unit that can use Hammerne for all but the final chapter. She can even kick Gharnef's ass if you give her an arms scroll due to her high MAG/SPD stats.

Edited September 5, 2010 by mjemirzian

[General Spoon]

Nobody is arguing he's better than Draug. I think he's better than a lot of the cast currently above him, though. The whole mid and lower tiers are not in very good shape. The top tier is more or less good, though, which I suppose is the most important thing. Although I think more respect needs to be paid to Malliesia as she is a critical unit if you want low turn counts because she is the only unit that can use Hammerne for all but the final chapter. She can even kick Gharnef's ass if you give her an arms scroll due to her high MAG/SPD stats.

Tier gaps exist to show a large performance gap between the people in different tiers. It doesn't matter if Rody is the king of the crapsack tier, he's still in the crapsack tier.

Malliesia isn't ranked on this list, I don't know why you brought her up. What does "Malliesia can maybe kick Gharnef's ass [at 20/20]" have to do with moving Rody?

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Although I think more respect needs to be paid to Malliesia as she is a critical unit if you want low turn counts because she is the only unit that can use Hammerne for all but the final chapter. She can even kick Gharnef's ass if you give her an arms scroll due to her high MAG/SPD stats.

Reading comprehension, bro. The "Unique Utility" tier exists for characters like her, because healers are 100% crucial for the game, so it's pointless to try and tier them. Malliesia gets infinite respect, since she's far and away the best healer and crucial for "low turn counts".

[fatgamecat]

Tier gaps exist to show a large performance gap between the people in different tiers. It doesn't matter if Rody is the king of the crapsack tier, he's still in the crapsack tier.

Um ok.. a meaningless statement about tier lists that contains no argument whatsoever about Rody's position. Great. And in my opinion, Rody is far from 'crapsack tier' (see previous posts for the math).

Malliesia isn't ranked on this list, I don't know why you brought her up. What does "Malliesia can maybe kick Gharnef's ass [at 20/20]" have to do with moving Rody?

Oh dear, maybe I shouldn't mention more than one character in one post as to not confuse poor General Spoon.

Reading comprehension, bro. The "Unique Utility" tier exists for characters like her, because healers are 100% crucial for the game, so it's pointless to try and tier them.

I just gave you an example where she can be more than a healer. Edited September 5, 2010 by mjemirzian

[Seven Deadly Sins]

"a chance"

Fuck tiering healers. Plain and simple. The fact that she can blow up Gharnef if somehow you manage to get her that high (good luck) doesn't matter when you have other better characters to do so. She's best used as a dedicated healer, and I don't tier healers.

Also, can both of you tone down the sass in your posts? Unnecessary bickering gets us nowhere.

[Parrhesia]

Oh dear, maybe I shouldn't mention more than one character in one post as to not confuse poor General Spoon.

Ah, yeah. Starting to see why you're thought of as a condescending asshole in many circles.

[fatgamecat]

Fuck tiering healers. Plain and simple. The fact that she can blow up Gharnef if somehow you manage to get her that high (good luck) doesn't matter when you have other better characters to do so. She's best used as a dedicated healer, and I don't tier healers.

Hmm I think it's reasonable to get her up to lv 15-17 promoted by Ch 23 even if you're speedrunning. It depends if she has enough SPD by then to avoid being doubled (22 spd).. she'll certainly have more SPD than Etzel at least. I've taken Etzel and Malliesia on my latest run so I'm just trying to figure out a better way to kick his butt than spending a fortune on boosts for Etzel.

Edited September 5, 2010 by mjemirzian

[BEST TRYNDAMERE PLAYER]

if somehow you manage to get her that high (good luck)

Actually, in an efficient playthrough(at least in a first Lunatic playthrough where you have no reclass freedom, rainbow potion, or statboosters in the prep shops) you can get her to decent levels at a reasonable time. I had Mallesia get to 20 unpromoted by chapter 12 and 20/18 by the end of 19 which isn't too bad if you ask me. I'm pretty sure she can still pull off something like 20/20 by the time Gharnef's chapter rolls around even if you have access to all the good stuff to make your turncounts even lower.

[grandjackal]

Rody is not going above Draug.

E bows are bad enough to start with, but take into account the gaps in bases.

Draug has +2 HP, +3 Strength, +5 Speed (!!!), and +1 Def over Rody. That's a hell of a lot of ground for Rody to make up, especially considering that it means Rody is going to take quite a while to start doubling stuff, while Draug only needs 2 speed procs (with a 75% growth, not terribly unlikely) to start doubling everything with a Rainbow Potion use. Also, consider that if Rody has 7 Strength as a Hunter, he's only dealing 13 damage to 9 def Dracos in Ch. 2, and 11 to the boss.

Rody is spending a lot of time being mediocre to become "ok" in the midgame, and his leads are not big enough lategame to make them especially relevant. I might see him up somewhat, but not in the same tier as Draug.

You realize he's got 12 speed as a cavalier, right? He can double stuff off the bat thanks to the potion. Hell, he can double Dracos by the time they show up in chapter 2 and 3.

By this, I of course am talking about Draug.

Edited September 5, 2010 by Etzel's Hips

[Narga_Rocks]

Ah, yeah. Starting to see why you're thought of as a condescending asshole in many circles.

While it was certainly not a positive statement, don't a ton of us make insulting comments like that? The whole "oh, I guess I need to make it simple for <insert name>", or "was that too complicated for your little mind? how about this <insert statement with lots of talking down to person>", etc?