H3 (Lunatic) Tier List

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

RP and statboosters are considered, which makes units like Rody and Draug much better at the start.( Ok Draug can still get OHKO'd by certain bandits though. >.<)

True, but Linde gains as well...actually, she probably stands more to gain from a single Angelic Robe than either Rody or Draug will from a single statbooster (or hell, even two). Angelic Robe brings Linde from good/great to amazing, while it brings Rody/Draug from mediocre to good (they've never stood out for me with Luke around, personally -- especially when the edge on bases Luke has makes it easier to train him in prologue, which, while we don't assume prologue utility, ends up affecting base level in C1). Like I said, Linde doesn't NEED an Angelic Robe until you get to stick one on her on C7, but she certainly gains from it, since you can be more reckless with her.

@SDS: Can't you just use all the statboosters you plan to use on Katarina and units like Linde/Mal/Yumina? Their 'shaky growths' MAY make them as bad as Katarina at uh... 10/1? Or maybe higher. But basically they're like Katarina if the RNG screws them, otherwise they're way better and deserve those statboosters.

Well...Katarina at base versus 20/1 AVERAGE Linde:

+1.6 HP/-0.4 MAG/-3.8 SKL/-5.2 SPD/-14 LUK/+4.2 DEF/-1.4 RES

So the stats we give a crap about are HP, MAG, SPD, and RES (and LUK to a lesser extent, because Gharnef will likely have a 7-10% chance to crit Kat, but not Linde). HP/RES are high enough since Kat can avoid being OHKO'd by Imhullu at base with pure water, MAG is basically tied with Linde's; that leaves a SPD issue. As covered earlier in this thread, Kat needs 20 SPD w/ RP use in order to not be doubled by Gharnef -- she achieves this in 6-7 levels, which is likely doable by the time Gharnef comes around -- and this assumes no speedwing use.

Also, Katarina has BETTER growths than Linde and great base weapon ranks (who already has fanatastic growths, especially considering mages tend to have slightly lower growths in FE12 IIRC), so she'd definitely be better than a cursed growth mage you've been working with and a viable candidate for even H3 Gharnef.

[Dark Sage]

Dracoknights (Lvl 8)

48(49) HP, 20 Str, 20(21), 23 Spd, 14 Def, 3(4) Res

Forged Silver Lance-39 Atk, 146 Acc

Forged Silver Axe-38 Atk, 145(146) Acc

Forged Hammer-37 Atk(71 Effective), 125 Acc

Forged Slender Spear-36 Atk, 145(146) Acc

10(11) Crit, 13 Avoid

Warriors (Lvl 6)

54(55) HP, 26(27) Str, 22(23) Skl, 23 Spd, 10(11) Def, 1(2) Res

Forged Tomohawk-41(42) Atk, 147(148) Acc

Forged Silver Axe-44(45) Atk, 147(148) Acc

Forged Hammer-43(44, 77-78 Effective) Atk, 125 Acc

12(13) Crit, 23 Avoid

*Door Key

**Vulnery

Snipers (Lvl 6)

50 HP, 20 Str, 23(24) Skl, 24(25) Spd, 12 Def, 4 Res

Forged Silver Bow-38 Atk, 153(154) Acc

Forged Longbow-38 Atk, 133(134) Acc

18(19) Crit, 24(25) Avoid

*Vulnery

Thieves (Lvl 15)

35 HP, 16 Str, 19(20) Skl, 25 Spd, 6 Def

Forged Silver Sword-35 Atk, 149(150) Acc

9(10) Crit, 25 Avoid

*Live Staff

**Rezire Tome

Katarina w/2 dusts + RP: HP 34, Mag 18, Skl 17, Spd 17, Luck 8, Def 11, Res 9

w/Resire: 27 attack, 121 hit, 31 avoid

w/Aura: 37 attack, 121 hit

First of all, with Resire, Katarina is borderline 2HKOing the Dracoknights. With Rezire, yeah she can survive a round with them but barely. The Snipers are the most dangerous enemies to Katarina because they are armed with Forged Longbows and will go for her at 3-range (aka she can't counter with Rezire) meaning they rape her effortlessly. If she does get attacked by a Silver Bow Sniper, she gets 2RKO'd but faces 9% crit and a 17.19% chance of being critblicked in a single round. This obviously is not good. All Warriors rape her unless she has an Angelic Robe on her and even then only the lesser warriors (Tomahawk variety) fail to ORKO her. It gets even worse later because while Katarina does have a nice 80% HP growth, enemies improve their attack at a similar if not faster rate. Yes you can buy more resources to give to Katarina but she is facing competition. Marth for example wants a Wing and a Robe as much as she does and we are not swimming in cash like we are in FE11. We still have weapons to buy, base arena, etc. to gouge into our pockets. Even worse, in the next chapter in order to avoid being doubled, she needs to proc 2 speed level ups with the Rainbow potion and the enemies AS values increase at a fast enough pace that it is difficult for her to avoid being doubled.

There is also the question on the efficiency on letting Katarina get attacked in the first place. If Katarina is attacked on the EP by an enemy, that enemy could've possibly gone for a more durable and powerful unit like MU or Paola who could destroy the thing or deal more damage to it than Katarina does. And if Katarina wants to chip something with Aura, she needs somebody to trade out her weapon in order to avoid being destroyed on the EP.

Oh, and Katarina can also be RNG screwed out of any speed she needs. She is not a completely RNG proof character either, just like any other unit.

I would provide more enemy stats and comparisons but I am tired.

Etzel takes more resources, especially Speedwings.

Mage MU is extremely unlikely to be a thing.

Because it is damaging to your case right?

Malliesia has shaky growths and poor base stats.

You can read Colonel M's argument on that subject (found earlier on the list)

Yumina is just terrible.

So why is she in Unique Utility then?

Linde requires an Angelic Robe (but granted is also really really good with it), something you might be unwilling to spend money on early if you are a person that likes using forges.

But we totally are willing to spend money on possibly dusts, a wing, and a robe later on for Katarina when we want to make Brave Forges so we can ORKO Glower Druids without taking a counter or Wyrmslayers right?

Merric's sole saving grace is Excalibur to get EXP in chapter 11, but that costs turns since it denies it to Etzel,

Actually, no it doesn't. Merric can OHKO the wyverns just as much as Etzel can in the desert and has enough durability to survive a blow, so he's not hurting turns.

and his growths aren't that great anyway, plus he comes at a high level in chapter 10. It's not unreasonable to consider that one would be lacking a competent mage at that point.

Merric (Mage) growths: HP 70 Str 0 Mag 40 Skill 65 Speed 65 Luck 70 Def 15 Res 15

These growths are bad now?

nope.avi

Can I propose we let someone else run this tier list please? Like Colonel M?

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

Actually, no it doesn't. Merric can OHKO the wyverns just as much as Etzel can in the desert and has enough durability to survive a blow, so he's not hurting turns.

Well...Etzel in C11 is used because he can rape the wyverns AND he can rescue. Giving the Excalibur tome to Merric in C11 probably costs turns because it means Etzel can't have it. And if Etzel doesn't have it, he can't OHKO on counter, which means he DIES to the wyverns since they double and 2HKO him. C11, being a desert map, means it's much more efficient to have Etzel move and rescue Marth than it is to have even booted Marth wade through the sand; it also makes it far less likely for somebody to die and allows your units to go after treasure instead of bodyguard Marth. Sadly, Shaver doesn't work because A) it actually can cost turns if you go fast enough and B) 6 less MT (18 less effective attack) than Excalibur, which is the difference between OHKO'ing and ORKO'd.

Merric can do this too...if you promote him...right after you get him...at level 10 or 11. Which probably isn't good for his long-term viability...ofc, neither is not leveling him in a level with a crapload of flying units when he can use Excalibur and sorely needs the levels ASAP.

...Are you starting to see why I like Linde?

Merric (Mage) growths: HP 70 Str 0 Mag 40 Skill 65 Speed 65 Luck 70 Def 15 Res 15

These growths are bad now?

I agree with you -- not at all. But his join time does.

EDIT: Katarina is LESS likely (probably far less) to be RNG screwed than Linde/Merric/Ellerean/Mal because variance in stats is proportional to the number of levels you gain. So while she CAN be SPD screwed, it's probably more likely that Linde is MAG screwed or HP screwed or RES screwed. Plus, theoretically, you can buy 3 speedwings in C21 and apply them to a Katarina with base SPD and she'd reach the necessary SPD threshold for Gharnef -- obviously, you'd likely not have to (or want to) do that, since it's the worst case scenario.

Edited February 11, 2012 by Kngt_Of_Titania

[Bluedoom]

True, but Linde gains as well...actually, she probably stands more to gain from a single Angelic Robe than either Rody or Draug will from a single statbooster (or hell, even two). Angelic Robe brings Linde from good/great to amazing, while it brings Rody/Draug from mediocre to good (they've never stood out for me with Luke around, personally -- especially when the edge on bases Luke has makes it easier to train him in prologue, which, while we don't assume prologue utility, ends up affecting base level in C1). Like I said, Linde doesn't NEED an Angelic Robe until you get to stick one on her on C7, but she certainly gains from it, since you can be more reckless with her.

Well...Katarina at base versus 20/1 AVERAGE Linde:

+1.6 HP/-0.4 MAG/-3.8 SKL/-5.2 SPD/-14 LUK/+4.2 DEF/-1.4 RES

So the stats we give a crap about are HP, MAG, SPD, and RES (and LUK to a lesser extent, because Gharnef will likely have a 7-10% chance to crit Kat, but not Linde). HP/RES are high enough since Kat can avoid being OHKO'd by Imhullu at base with pure water, MAG is basically tied with Linde's; that leaves a SPD issue. As covered earlier in this thread, Kat needs 20 SPD w/ RP use in order to not be doubled by Gharnef -- she achieves this in 6-7 levels, which is likely doable by the time Gharnef comes around -- and this assumes no speedwing use.

Also, Katarina has BETTER growths than Linde and great base weapon ranks (who already has fanatastic growths, especially considering mages tend to have slightly lower growths in FE12 IIRC), so she'd definitely be better than a cursed growth mage you've been working with and a viable candidate for even H3 Gharnef.

Well Linde is still stuck to 2 range attacking and has only 6 move. Rody,Draug and generally the other physical units have more movement and durability. Giving them an anggelic robe and then an RP would probably be more efficient if they're now going to be 3HKO'd I should probably check that out though. Basically its whether 3HKO'd physical mount> 2HKO'd 6 MOV mage.

So basically because Katarina, with all those resourcezs, can become a Gharnef killer(and it still takes time to kill the dude anyway, not like she's totally safe with those resources) she needs to be in unique utility? We're talking about her combat abilities now, not her staffbot powers, which we can do with Yumina/Malliesia anyway. She still needs those resources while Linde does not(bar the seraph robe) although probably in the end you might be right: A spirit dust might be required after all. I think Katarina should be below Cain or something at the very least- just because she's a potential Gharnef killer doesn't mean she deserves to be in Unique Utility. Its like feeding someone like Arran all those statboosters and watch him clobber stuff for the first half of the game.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

blah blah blah stuff that doesn't actually refute my points

We are now at the point where enemies stop being doubled by anyone. 2HKO is basically the best anyone is doing, and Katarina doesn't die, meaning she CAN be exposed to enemies. However, the point is, she is not ORKOed and she is capable of contributing in a way that levels her up.

Because it is damaging to your case right?

Because Mage MU is awful in prologue and not much better throughout the game. It is clearly a MUCH worse decision than Fighter/Armor -> Dracoknight MU. It's similar to assuming Haar isn't always in play. Sure, there may be PTs that Haar isn't used. These are not efficient playthroughs.

You can read Colonel M's argument on that subject (found earlier on the list)

I suppose my disagreement mainly comes from the fact that my Malliesias have always levelled slowly and been universally terrible, but Katarina is far, far more stable and unlike Malliesia will also be combat-competent outside of her role as a Gharnef killer.

So why is she in Unique Utility then?

Because she comes with C Staves, and having a second staff user is useful in some cases. Being able to use Mend and later being able to use stuff like Fortify later is very important. However, she is extremely unlikely to be a competent combat character at any point in time.

But we totally are willing to spend money on possibly dusts, a wing, and a robe later on for Katarina when we want to make Brave Forges so we can ORKO Glower Druids without taking a counter or Wyrmslayers right?

You don't need to buy a robe when you get one in Ch17 for free. There are also 3 free dusts throughout the game that are earmarked for whoever kills Gharnef. As for the wing, Katarina is unlikely to need it. Enemy levels are extremely high, and she hits 20 speed at level 14 on average, with a 75% growth making it that much more stable. Additionally, there is a Speedwing in Chapter 16 that is available if you do need it. You definitely don't need to buy one.

Actually, no it doesn't. Merric can OHKO the wyverns just as much as Etzel can in the desert and has enough durability to survive a blow, so he's not hurting turns.

For the 6 turn, you need Etzel to be moving his max movement every turn, and in order to do that safely while having the units to collect stat boosters, Etzel needs to be killing Flying Dragons every turn or nearly every turn.

Merric (Mage) growths: HP 70 Str 0 Mag 40 Skill 65 Speed 65 Luck 70 Def 15 Res 15

These growths are bad now?

Pardon me, I meant his bases. He gets OHKOed by bandits in Chapter 11, and also gets OHKOed by high end (33 atk) Flying Dragons even if he uses Rainbow Potion. This gets even better in the chapters after he joins, except unlike everyone else, he doesn't have any way to reliably damage the dragons in the valley, all of which OHKO him without fail AND double him. When he finally gets back to the mainland, he continues to be completely useless, except now he's ALSO underlevelled and has no way to get around the fact that absolutely everything doubles him. Additionally, he even struggles to OHKO Dracoknights with Excalibur, and they still murder him instantly.

Linde doesn't deal with this because she's been levelling all game. Katarina doesn't deal with this because she's competent and usable as soon as she shows up. She can even use Resire to counter the fact that she's being doubled.

So basically because Katarina, with all those resourcezs, can become a Gharnef killer(and it still takes time to kill the dude anyway, not like she's totally safe with those resources) she needs to be in unique utility? We're talking about her combat abilities now, not her staffbot powers, which we can do with Yumina/Malliesia anyway. She still needs those resources while Linde does not(bar the seraph robe) although probably in the end you might be right: A spirit dust might be required after all. I think Katarina should be below Cain or something at the very least- just because she's a potential Gharnef killer doesn't mean she deserves to be in Unique Utility. Its like feeding someone like Arran all those statboosters and watch him clobber stuff for the first half of the game.

On the one hand, I started this mainly because I considered she might not be worth putting in Unique Utility. On the other hand, she is in a strange situation insofar as her main use is being a backup for performing a task that 100% must be performed in order to win the game. She's not super good, but she is competent and can be clutch in a situation where you don't have a needed resource (strong magic user).

If she were to be tiered normally I'm not sure where she would be. Probably somewhere vaguely near Belf/Leiden/Darros, the strong midgame characters.

Edited February 11, 2012 by Seven Deadly Sins

[General Horace]

Statboosters like robes and dragonshields or whatever they're called in this game are generally used to make units escape OHKO's, or to improve on a units already strong durability, I doubt giving a Robe to Rody or Draug early on would improve their performance in the slightest.

This was a reply to Marth, not SDS.

Edited February 11, 2012 by General Horace

[Colonel M]

Someone pass a joint - I heard Katarina being able to use Aura and Resire.

Malliesia isn't exactly the most RNG-reliable person, but she has a shitload of time to improve her stats. Take for example, she only needs to be roughly 20/7 to prevent being doubled by Gharnef with Rainbow Potion assumed. That isn't terribly difficult for her to reach either since she's able to reach for staves that give massive EXP like Hammerne, Fortify, and Rescue early on. I understand Rescue and Fortify aren't completely exclusive, but she's one of the few people that reach A Staves early on, and you can burn them up decently (just don't get too happy with it). Let's also not forget there's Thief Staff, which gives her a lot of goody experience just for her. You could also argue it going to someone else like Etzel, but he's more for Excalibur / pure staff duty. Malliesia is really your major key to killing Gharnef, and Rainbow Potion makes it mostly a non-issue.

Katarina is almost superfluous if it wasn't for her Staff rank coming as it is. Yes, she can likely reach not being doubled by Gharnef in 7 levels, but the other problem is her Luck is abysmal to let her do anything like taking a hit. Not only does she constantly get risked being doubled (Chapter 17 she would need +5 Speed minimum to prevent being doubled), but her shitty Luck also makes it an issue too. Generals are one of the few classes that don't have a huge Crit advantage on her (they have 9 Crit, and she has 6 Luck), but now you have enemies like Snipers that have about 18-19 Crit, and you have some issues coming your way if you can even come close to escape not being doubled. Long range tomes have a lot of fun with her due to her poorer Luck, since they have about 10 Crit in Chapter 20. That's about 6 levels that she needs to prevent it from happening, and one of those chapters (Chapter 18) is pretty short, and Chapter 17 isn't much longer. There's also Rainbow Potion... but other characters like Sirius and possibly My Unit need to have that bottle too; especially Sirius since his major issue is that he's always a point or two below the belt line without it. Now you hit Chapter 21 and all of a sudden, "whoops", those Meteor Sorcerers now pack 14 Crit, and let me tell you - they love to target low Luck people. Ask Nagi back in Chapter 23; she was a magnet for those fuckers all the time, but she's pretty clutch for killing Dragons.

Now I'm not saying that Katarina isn't bad for staff use (C intact is pretty good in comparison to her surroundings... fucking Frost), and I guess she could kill Gharnef with a shitload of investment too (all 5 Spirit Dusts lets her OHKO if she crits, 3HKO if she doesn't which obviously works on the next turn, Rainbow Potion curbs the leveling issue a little bit, and Barrier / Pure Water exists to survive), though let me tell you - it must be fun to have roughly 10-11 Luck and Gharnef has 18 innate Crit, which means she can die pretty easily. To be fair, it's next to the save point so it's irrelevant, but it's fun to bash her for it since that gives a possibility of an increased chance of having to restart to kill him (again; possibility).

But aside from those two functions... she does almost nothing different than what Malliesia and Etzel were doing a bazillion chapters ago, and even Etzel can go fight Gharnef at --/20 as a Bishop. 41.2 HP / 20.6 Res just makes the cut of not dying by Imhullu twice, though getting Crit is also an issue and it happens twice. Still, his chances after a Rainbow Potion are about the same as hers (roughly 6% chance), and Yumina is just as capable as Katarina is and still comes with the bonus of being a staff bot.

So, what's the biggest difference between Katarina from Yumina, Malliesia, and Etzel? She has a inferior Staff rank to them. Etzel can almost, if not have, A Staves by the time she arrives, and Katarina will have to fight just to get there (I think she can make it, but it's going to require her to almost heal every turn). Furthermore, it would likely require Bishop class to reach it, so she won't have Aura access at all. This leaves her pretty much what everyone has access to, barring Etzel who trades Resire (shit) to Excalibur (something worthwhile). Being more RNG-proof is barely an argument, since Malliesia has a staff unique to her, Yumina and Etzel have earlier access to Rescue and Thief staff before Katarina, and since they can hit B-A Range for staves have access to Fortify and Recover, which the former has major EXP gain (70 Base) and the latter helps a lot since taking damage hurts in this game and the heals provided by Staves aren't always that awesome (thanks to the shitty Mag/2 formula). I guess to be fair she can get Again Staff at 15 Staff swings as a Bishop...

Anyway, the tl;dr version is this: if you're using Katarina aside from being a staff bot or possibly being a dire emergency to killing Gharnef (and this is assuming that Malliesia or Yumina get boned over so badly... which they more than likely won't. Malliesia has minor Spd issue, but she has a lot of leveling time, and Yumina doesn't really have a big issue aside from maybe survival, which is easy to fix), you're Doing It Wrong.<tm>

By the way, if you really want to argue Katarina as a combat unit, I'd say Swordmaster!Malliesia does better. ;/

Edited February 13, 2012 by Colonel M

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

Malliesia isn't exactly the most RNG-reliable person, but she has a shitload of time to improve her stats. Take for example, she only needs to be roughly 20/7 to prevent being doubled by Gharnef with Rainbow Potion assumed. That isn't terribly difficult for her to reach either since she's able to reach for staves that give massive EXP like Hammerne, Fortify, and Rescue early on. I understand Rescue and Fortify aren't completely exclusive, but she's one of the few people that reach A Staves early on, and you can burn them up decently (just don't get too happy with it). Let's also not forget there's Thief Staff, which gives her a lot of goody experience just for her. You could also argue it going to someone else like Etzel, but he's more for Excalibur / pure staff duty. Malliesia is really your major key to killing Gharnef, and Rainbow Potion makes it mostly a non-issue.

1) Linde can kill Gharnef too (and levels pretty easily, even at efficiency speeds). Mal isn't the only viable candidate in H3 to snatch the Falchion from his cold, dead hands.

2) Mal is like the uber-staffbot. No argument here.

3) The argument of Katarina being the backup Gharnef-killer probably shouldn't be countered with arguments concerning an AVERAGE Malliesia. If she was average (or better), we wouldn't be using Katarina as a backup.

Katarina is almost superfluous if it wasn't for her Staff rank coming as it is. Yes, she can likely reach not being doubled by Gharnef in 7 levels, but the other problem is her Luck is abysmal to let her do anything like taking a hit. Not only does she constantly get risked being doubled (Chapter 17 she would need +5 Speed minimum to prevent being doubled), but her shitty Luck also makes it an issue too. Generals are one of the few classes that don't have a huge Crit advantage on her (they have 9 Crit, and she has 6 Luck), but now you have enemies like Snipers that have about 18-19 Crit, and you have some issues coming your way if you can even come close to escape not being doubled. Long range tomes have a lot of fun with her due to her poorer Luck, since they have about 10 Crit in Chapter 20. That's about 6 levels that she needs to prevent it from happening, and one of those chapters (Chapter 18) is pretty short, and Chapter 17 isn't much longer. There's also Rainbow Potion... but other characters like Sirius and possibly My Unit need to have that bottle too; especially Sirius since his major issue is that he's always a point or two below the belt line without it. Now you hit Chapter 21 and all of a sudden, "whoops", those Meteor Sorcerers now pack 14 Crit, and let me tell you - they love to target low Luck people. Ask Nagi back in Chapter 23; she was a magnet for those fuckers all the time, but she's pretty clutch for killing Dragons.

I love how you casually mention that she's usually doubled and 2HKO'd right off the bat, and then the crux of your argument involves her having a <10% chance to be crit per attack due to her crappy LUK. OH GOD SHE MIGHT DIE ON THE FIRST HIT AND NOT THE SECOND!

Anyways, if it's possible to train Linde easily when she's being OHKO'd before C7 w/o a purchased Angelic Robe, then training Kat should be feasible, even if it is a pain in the ass. I would much rather just use Mal/Linde to do it, but I'd also much rather put up with training Kat and beat the game than not train Kat, NOT get the Falchion, and have Medeus trash my ass on Final.

But aside from those two functions... she does almost nothing different than what Malliesia and Etzel were doing a bazillion chapters ago, and even Etzel can go fight Gharnef at --/20 as a Bishop. 41.2 HP / 20.6 Res just makes the cut of not dying by Imhullu twice, though getting Crit is also an issue and it happens twice. Still, his chances after a Rainbow Potion are about the same as hers (roughly 6% chance), and Yumina is just as capable as Katarina is and still comes with the bonus of being a staff bot.

My argument, at least, is that Katarina provides a non-RNG way to ensure you beat the game (almost regardless of what happened before she came, you can feed her the 3 speedwings from C21, the spirit dust from C19, and a pure water/barrier, and she'll theoretically be able to take down Gharnef at base). Mal/Yumina/Linde (whomever of those you train) will likely be sufficient to beat Gharnef, but if they're not, wtf are you going to do? Kat is the emergency plan, the "Oh hey, I don't have to restart my run!" option. Etzel has a harder time claiming that, with 19 SPD @ level 20 (he needs to be level 18 on average to not be doubled with a RP and speedwing). This (and only this) is why I think Kat belongs in "Unique Utility".

If she isn't needed to do that, IDGAF about her staff rank (even a cursed Mal gets A staff ownage) or her combat (because it's merely passable).

Edited February 13, 2012 by Kngt_Of_Titania

[Colonel M]

1) Linde can kill Gharnef too (and levels pretty easily, even at efficiency speeds). Mal isn't the only viable candidate in H3 to snatch the Falchion from his cold, dead hands.

Who seriously cares about Linde? It's between you and SDS, and everyone else would rather train someone who can do other things that make the team more flexible.

I guess if you really want to count Linde, whatever, but that just puts another nail against Katarina anyway. So in essence, you're only shooting yourself harder in the foot.

3) The argument of Katarina being the backup Gharnef-killer probably shouldn't be countered with arguments concerning an AVERAGE Malliesia. If she was average (or better), we wouldn't be using Katarina as a backup.

That's why Katarina is "superfluous" as a backup Gharnef-killer. The player has more alternatives than he / she can shake a stick at. You mentioned Linde, I mentioned Etzel (though he might need a little help, and that's it), Yumina, and Malliesia. There's 4 different people before Katarina, and you want to argue her as a backup Gharnef killer?

Please, I only need her for her staffbot utility. If I even need that.

I love how you casually mention that she's usually doubled and 2HKO'd right off the bat, and then the crux of your argument involves her having a <10% chance to be crit per attack due to her crappy LUK. OH GOD SHE MIGHT DIE ON THE FIRST HIT AND NOT THE SECOND!

You're right, her shitty Luck does hurt her. Remember Michalis? Remember why he isn't high on the list? Oh wait...

Anyways, if it's possible to train Linde easily when she's being OHKO'd before C7 w/o a purchased Angelic Robe, then training Kat should be feasible, even if it is a pain in the ass. I would much rather just use Mal/Linde to do it, but I'd also much rather put up with training Kat and beat the game than not train Kat, NOT get the Falchion, and have Medeus trash my ass on Final.

Yes, because I love units that barely double enemies and don't have any effective weapons whatsoever in the process.

SDS had Linde at Level 16 by Chapter 11. Her Spd at that point? 16.4 on average. What does that double? Wait for it...

...

...Nothing.

Chapter 11 enemies consist of Bandits having 15-16 Spd, then Flying Dragons have 20. The only good news is if she promotes, she can escape being doubled. Or if she steals a Rainbow Potion. Props for doing nothing in this chapter, really. *Partyhat*.

Chapter 12? Let's see, enemies have 1-2 range constantly, Flying Dragons have 21 Spd, though I'll be nice and give her the Spd point, and what's this? She dies in one hit unless she takes a Seraph Robe, gains obscene amount of levels, or swallows a Rainbow Potion? Just to survive? Boy that's awesome... Then Chapter 13-14? Enjoy Ice Dragons with 10-11 Resistance.

It takes a lot to make her a combat unit, and a lot of it falls down to enemies having 1-2 range often in this game, which means that a Seraph Robe is a necessity on her. Note I did not say "recommended" nor did I say "suggested".

My argument, at least, is that Katarina provides a non-RNG way to ensure you beat the game (almost regardless of what happened before she came, you can feed her the 3 speedwings from C21, the spirit dust from C19, and a pure water/barrier, and she'll theoretically be able to take down Gharnef at base). Mal/Yumina/Linde (whomever of those you train) will likely be sufficient to beat Gharnef, but if they're not, wtf are you going to do? Kat is the emergency plan, the "Oh hey, I don't have to restart my run!" option. Etzel has a harder time claiming that, with 19 SPD @ level 20 (he needs to be level 18 on average to not be doubled with a RP and speedwing). This (and only this) is why I think Kat belongs in "Unique Utility".

Hi, guess who needs those Chapter 21 Speedwings more than Katarina? Marth. Marth is the one unit that cannot get screwed at all, or Medeus becomes a hell of a time. Even if you have a Speedwing leftover after that, what about units like Sirius who could really use 29 Spd to double the Dragons with Wyrmslayer as a Horseman? And trust me: him being able to do it makes it pretty easy for the team. Also, Etzel can swallow that same Speedwing with Rainbow Potion, and most of the time avoid being doubled, assuming he hits maxed level (which I'm not 100% sure he can do, but he can get pretty close if you manage it right, if not make it. I held him and Malliesia back a lot). Then there's Malliesia, who most likely won't get screwed in Spd, but that still gives her a 4 Spd gap now compared to the two that originally existed. Or, if we're scared about Malliesia being Spd-screwed, a Seraph Robe can go on Yumina just in case she somehow gets screwed, or Etzel to survive two blows if he gains some levels. Mine made it to 13, which as a Bishop averages to about 35.6 HP | 24.8 Res after Pure Water / Barrier. Seraph Robe nets him survival, and just in case you really want to argue that he can't survive two blows when I'm being generous enough to assume resets despite Katarina being crit on Gharnef, I know there's a Talisman in the game which can help net that survival better. Remember: Etzel being doubled isn't a major deal; he just has to survive two hits instead. This is easy with Bishop giving +3 Res in return for -1 Mag, and Etzel having 30 HP | 15 Res to start with. It may not seem like much, but leveling by killing all the flying dragons and staff botting should help his level go up 7 levels easily, and then with my route you can survive two blows from Gharnef. You have a Talisma that you collect in Chapter 21 for a little leeway, and possibly getting a Seraph Robe if Marth has his 61 HP + Def total and 27 Spd.

If she isn't needed to do that, IDGAF about her staff rank (even a cursed Mal gets A staff ownage) or her combat (because it's merely passable).

Merely passable? 6 Mov is merely passable now I take it...

...

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

That's why Katarina is "superfluous" as a backup Gharnef-killer. The player has more alternatives than he / she can shake a stick at. You mentioned Linde, I mentioned Etzel (though he might need a little help, and that's it), Yumina, and Malliesia. There's 4 different people before Katarina, and you want to argue her as a backup Gharnef killer?

This statement is a bit misleading. You're going to (realistically) train a max of 2 of Mal, Yumina, or Linde. Mal is an obvious choice, because she comes earlier, claims Hammerne use, has good staff rank base, has the BEST MAG growth in the game, etc. You may or may not train Linde (I do, so I have two possible Gharnef killers and because she IS good at combat, but you hate her, so whatever), and Yumina is often overkill, although useful when you need an extra staffbot. Training her is usually a luxury afforded if Mal gets the proper number of levels, since physic, thief, and rescue uses are basically what's giving them like 80%+ of their experience for first tier. You don't level all of them at once, and none of these make an adequate backup because they all have extremely low base levels and thus take a long time to train to a proper level for Gharnef and are THEMSELVES susceptible to screwage.

You're right, her shitty Luck does hurt her. Remember Michalis? Remember why he isn't high on the list? Oh wait...

I'm saying you don't HAVE to argue her shitty LUK because you already stated she will likely be doubled and ORKO'd. It would be like me bitching *IF* Feena had terrible LUK -- she's going to die to anything that attacks her, so at that point, I'd just rather have it crit just so I can see a pretty animation before I reset.

Yes, because I love units that barely double enemies and don't have any effective weapons whatsoever in the process.

SDS had Linde at Level 16 by Chapter 11. Her Spd at that point? 16.4 on average. What does that double? Wait for it...

...

...Nothing.

I don't remember doubling being super common in Lunatic compared to most other FE games, particularly once you start reaching the end (although, if you level up some units quick enough, you can get doubling with myrms/mercs/pegasi/pirates in early to mid game). Never mind that Linde practically has sole access to Aura (an amazing tome, by any standard) most of the game; Mal/Yumina have a very small chance to get B tomes for it *late* in the game, and I think Kat comes with B tomes base, or that she stays solidly in 2HKO range against any non-boss enemy (except, I think, the C7 Fire Dragon if she doesn't get RP'd) from the instant you give her the Angelic Robe (which isn't very contested for). You're looking at a unit with 23-25 ATK that essentially targets non-existent or nearly non-existent RES on enemies and with 1-2 range. Also IIRC, shaver doesn't cost any turns so long as you don't complete C4 faster than 7 turns (for the record, dondon took 7 turns in his run, and 5-6 turns requires a fair bit of DEF rigging on MU, which we obviously are not assuming is a possibility in this discussion), and is awesome against the dracoknights that are spammed early game.

Hi, guess who needs those Chapter 21 Speedwings more than Katarina? Marth. Marth is the one unit that cannot get screwed at all, or Medeus becomes a hell of a time. Even if you have a Speedwing leftover after that, what about units like Sirius who could really use 29 Spd to double the Dragons with Wyrmslayer as a Horseman? And trust me: him being able to do it makes it pretty easy for the team. Also, Etzel can swallow that same Speedwing with Rainbow Potion, and most of the time avoid being doubled, assuming he hits maxed level (which I'm not 100% sure he can do, but he can get pretty close if you manage it right, if not make it. I held him and Malliesia back a lot). Then there's Malliesia, who most likely won't get screwed in Spd, but that still gives her a 4 Spd gap now compared to the two that originally existed. Or, if we're scared about Malliesia being Spd-screwed, a Seraph Robe can go on Yumina just in case she somehow gets screwed, or Etzel to survive two blows if he gains some levels. Mine made it to 13, which as a Bishop averages to about 35.6 HP | 24.8 Res after Pure Water / Barrier. Seraph Robe nets him survival, and just in case you really want to argue that he can't survive two blows when I'm being generous enough to assume resets despite Katarina being crit on Gharnef, I know there's a Talisman in the game which can help net that survival better. Remember: Etzel being doubled isn't a major deal; he just has to survive two hits instead. This is easy with Bishop giving +3 Res in return for -1 Mag, and Etzel having 30 HP | 15 Res to start with. It may not seem like much, but leveling by killing all the flying dragons and staff botting should help his level go up 7 levels easily, and then with my route you can survive two blows from Gharnef. You have a Talisma that you collect in Chapter 21 for a little leeway, and possibly getting a Seraph Robe if Marth has his 61 HP + Def total and 27 Spd.

Alright, this is what I was looking for here. I'm going to be honest and say I didn't even think of a unit being in 3HKO range of 46 ATK magic in a game where most units have fantastically bad RES. I completely forgot about Etzel having such ridiculous RES (for FE12) at base; yeah, he just barely survives a round against Gharnef at level 13, which I think you should safely reach if you keep him staffbotting and with C11 (C11 nets him...1.5-2 levels, I think?).

So yeah, I'm actually going to agree with you about Kat moving out of Unique Utility, simply because my argument was that she was a RNG-proof way to defeat Gharnef, which you need to do to get the Falchion, which you need for Medeus. If Etzel can do it with little chance of being growth screwed, then the odds of you needing Kat would be too low to justify it as unique utility.

Merely passable? 6 Mov is merely passable now I take it...

When I say combat, I don't mean MOV. I tend to seperate the two. And yes, 6 MOV is terrible.

Edited February 13, 2012 by Kngt_Of_Titania

[Colonel M]

This statement is a bit misleading. You're going to (realistically) train a max of 2 of Mal, Yumina, or Linde. Mal is an obvious choice, because she comes earlier, claims Hammerne use, has good staff rank base, has the BEST MAG growth in the game, etc. You may or may not train Linde (I do, so I have two possible Gharnef killers and because she IS good at combat, but you hate her, so whatever), and Yumina is often overkill, although useful when you need an extra staffbot. Training her is usually a luxury afforded if Mal gets the proper number of levels, since physic, thief, and rescue uses are basically what's giving them like 80%+ of their experience for first tier. You don't level all of them at once, and none of these make an adequate backup because they all have extremely low base levels and thus take a long time to train to a proper level for Gharnef and are THEMSELVES susceptible to screwage.

You mention screwage so often that you also forget that Katarina (and Linde) is still susceptible to it; the only thing that makes her hit the "pass" mark is that she has a higher base stat. And, on the contrary, blessings also happen. If you are so scared to fucking death that Malliesia (nor Etzel) cannot make it to killing Gharnef phase, just train Yumina. I told you once, and I'll tell you again: Yumina isn't completely superfluous since healing is pretty important, and it's pretty difficult to be Spd-screwed, on the average. Yes, there's more levels to consider... but that can still be seen as beneficiary.

Look at Karel for example. Karel in FE6, that is. He's a unit that is almost RNG-screwed free, can automatically wield Durandal, and for shits and giggles can crit over 30% of the time. Do you see him given much praise? No. Why? There are still other units in competition against him, and flimsy arguments such as screwings aren't taken into account.

I'm saying you don't HAVE to argue her shitty LUK because you already stated she will likely be doubled and ORKO'd. It would be like me bitching *IF* Feena had terrible LUK -- she's going to die to anything that attacks her, so at that point, I'd just rather have it crit just so I can see a pretty animation before I reset.

The issue is that they're separate entities. In one corner, it limits how she can attack (doubled and ORKOed). In the other corner, it limits to where she can walk (Worm and Meteor wielders). You're viewing this a little too close as one entity when two actually exist. Ballistae are another example. They only strike one shot, but they still have Crit on her too. Now do we understand where I'm coming from?

I don't remember doubling being super common in Lunatic compared to most other FE games, particularly once you start reaching the end (although, if you level up some units quick enough, you can get doubling with myrms/mercs/pegasi/pirates in early to mid game).

Doubling is only rare on "mediocre" units, and like Linde usually have special properties (Bows). Let's see:

- Arran is unique because his promoted stats and classes give him an upper hand. Rainbow Potion can let him double.

- Fighter!MU, or shall we say Pirate!MU, goes and ORKOes everything.

- AK!MU probably comes dead close.

- Catria is usually doubling with the Rainbow Potion assumed

- Palla is usually doubling with the Rainbow Potion assumed

- Sirius might need a little help pending on the class other than Rainbow Potion, but can usually double

- Shiida has no problems doubling

It's true that Linde does have a minor advantage with Aura doing a good amount of damage, but its uses are limited. Chapter 3 has Ballistae all over the place, so she won't be entering those areas until they're cleared. Furthermore, if we're getting Bord she'll be helping with scrap work while giving everyone else the EXP. Since the most efficient way is to have her attack first, then a combat unit, she won't always get the EXP (unless we adjust it for her, which we can in some instances). Chapter 3X helps a little bit... but the flying units are doing most of the work. Chapter 4 she's necessary for a turn, then holding forts down from reinforcements. Chapter 5 wants more mounted units than anything else; most foot units get in the way. Chapter 6 is roughly the same scenario, except there's a small push within the first 2 turns. 6X is done in one turn, and... the uses get more and more limited as the good characters improve around her.

I'm not saying Linde is complete "trash", but she has issues that

1) She's handicapped to being powerful 2 range

2) She can't double for a long time, possibly

3) She has E Staves, or D as a Bishop... which is gross.

4) rofl6 Mov.

Never mind that Linde practically has sole access to Aura (an amazing tome, by any standard) most of the game; Mal/Yumina have a very small chance to get B tomes for it *late* in the game, and I think Kat comes with B tomes base

Malliesia comes with being the only user for Hammerne. Debate over?

Furthermore, Malliesia and Yumina don't want to be combat units; they want to thrive on healing the units.

or that she stays solidly in 2HKO range against any non-boss enemy (except, I think, the C7 Fire Dragon if she doesn't get RP'd)

Fire Dragon has the issue of doubling her, and that Dragon is best ignored anyway. It's 2,500 Gold, yes, but the Dragon also has 34 Atk and 20 Spd. There aren't many units that can really... well... survive against him. Not to mention there's 41 HP | 12 Def to pierce. I can't remember how flexible you could be with this chapter to be honest... but it seems like a bigger pain in the ass than what it's worth.

from the instant you give her the Angelic Robe (which isn't very contested for).

So instead of giving a Seraph Robe to a unit that can possibly make 2HKOes into 3HKOes, we're going to give it to someone who dies in a stiff breeze and can attack from 2 range?

Okay.

You're looking at a unit with 23-25 ATK that essentially targets non-existent or nearly non-existent RES on enemies and with 1-2 range.

I'm not completely blind; I'm aware of it. I'm also aware how superfluous it is after a certain point. The main issue? 6 Mov is a drag. A huge one. Later chapters do have to use a little more higher Spd-capped units (i.e. Swordmaster), but Sage has the disadvantage of having -1-4 Mov, pathetic durability, and usually terrible AS. Linde has to be about 20/1, with Rainbow Potion, to double Ice Dragons in Chapter 14. Tell me good sir, when does this happen.

Also IIRC, shaver doesn't cost any turns so long as you don't complete C4 faster than 7 turns (for the record, dondon took 7 turns in his run, and 5-6 turns requires a fair bit of DEF rigging on MU, which we obviously are not assuming is a possibility in this discussion), and is awesome against the dracoknights that are spammed early game.

Shaver requires I think a 1-2 turn penalty, and it hurts you up north a lot because Castor is pretty useful with the Ogma group.*

*Note to self - get on those videos soon.

When I say combat, I don't mean MOV. I tend to seperate the two. And yes, 6 MOV is terrible.

Except they both kind of go hand-in-hand. Look at your General Gilliam. He was an awesome combat unit, but I'm sure he was a pain in the ass as far as getting from point A to point B, wasn't he?

Edited February 13, 2012 by Colonel M

[Bluedoom]

Actually there's only one ballista in C3, Colonel. So Linde has more moving space. Just wanted to point that out.

Itherwise I totally agree with your post.

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

You mention screwage so often that you also forget that Katarina (and Linde) is still susceptible to it; the only thing that makes her hit the "pass" mark is that she has a higher base stat. And, on the contrary, blessings also happen. If you are so scared to fucking death that Malliesia (nor Etzel) cannot make it to killing Gharnef phase, just train Yumina. I told you once, and I'll tell you again: Yumina isn't completely superfluous since healing is pretty important, and it's pretty difficult to be Spd-screwed, on the average. Yes, there's more levels to consider... but that can still be seen as beneficiary.

Look at Karel for example. Karel in FE6, that is. He's a unit that is almost RNG-screwed free, can automatically wield Durandal, and for shits and giggles can crit over 30% of the time. Do you see him given much praise? No. Why? There are still other units in competition against him, and flimsy arguments such as screwings aren't taken into account.

Katarina has base stats high enough that you can theoretically have her defeat Gharnef at base given the materials mentioned earlier, so in a sense, she works no matter how screwed she is (she just happens to be more expensive to bring to minimum standards for H3 Gharnef). Unlike most arguments, where you don't bring screwings into account, we're dealing with a special circumstance here -- we need to kill a unit with 25 SPD/25 RES/46 RES-targeting ATK to practically beat the game; we can't afford to have a cursed Mal/Linde/Yumina facing him. It would be like saying only Alan, Lance, and Karel could, for some reason, wield the only weapon that could harm Idoun -- Karel would have more value than he presently does if he presented a sure-fire (although tedious) way to beat the game if Alance turned out too poor statistically to stand a chance. However, I've already conceded her being in Unique Utility because you showed me Etzel can reasonably do almost the same thing as Katarina with his fantastically high RES (and using a less contested statbooster).

I just wanted you to add Linde to the list of possible Gharnef killers (Mal/Yumina). She's just as susceptible to screwage as either of them, and just as good as either for the job (if not slightly better due to training tome rank while leveling).

The issue is that they're separate entities. In one corner, it limits how she can attack (doubled and ORKOed). In the other corner, it limits to where she can walk (Worm and Meteor wielders). You're viewing this a little too close as one entity when two actually exist. Ballistae are another example. They only strike one shot, but they still have Crit on her too. Now do we understand where I'm coming from?

I do understand. However, she is at base facing 1-2% crit chance from the 2 ballista that exist between Kat's recruitment and the end of the game and 6% crit from the Worm/Swarm max SKL Sorcerors in C23. However, by C23, she needs to be at least level 13-14 to face Gharnef anyways (or there's frankly little reason for me to use her), so that becomes 2-3% crit. Definitely non-zero chances for sure, but extremely low and a chance I'd feel comfortable taking if I needed her, tbh.

I always felt that the LUK argument should come into play when a unit is borderline useful, not when the unit potentially has unique utility (as in this case, but again, I've dropped it due to Etzel) or is just awesome (Sirius, who also has pretty terrible LUK).

Doubling is only rare on "mediocre" units, and like Linde usually have special properties (Bows). Let's see:

- Arran is unique because his promoted stats and classes give him an upper hand. Rainbow Potion can let him double.

- Fighter!MU, or shall we say Pirate!MU, goes and ORKOes everything.

- AK!MU probably comes dead close.

- Catria is usually doubling with the Rainbow Potion assumed

- Palla is usually doubling with the Rainbow Potion assumed

- Sirius might need a little help pending on the class other than Rainbow Potion, but can usually double

- Shiida has no problems doubling

Like I said, it's more common early-game -- you essentially listed the pegasi sisters, Sirius (who I agree is often borderline), and MU. There's reasons why they're essentially in their own top tier, and easy doubling early on is a big one (flying is the other). Personally, I think Shiida is a little bit overhyped (Wing Spear is still rather win, but her fantastically bad STR is not), but that's for another conversation.

Linde can do a little doubling early on against armors and other slower enemies if you raise her from the get-go, but you are right that she won't double most of the game. Most of this has to do with mage base SPD, I would imagine. She's got a 70% SPD growth, which normally would ensure doubling, but she comes at 8 SPD base too, so by the time the growth kicks in, enemies are starting to rock SPD high enough to avoid doubling by any first tier unit, and then shortly after that they're ramming the SPD caps. However, Linde almost never has to worry about being doubled, which is the bane of all too many characters in FE12; combine that with 2HKO status by nearly any enemy in the game, 1-2 range, and a legendary tome which is practically exclusive to her (it has 18 MT versus thunder, which has 6 MT, or elfire, which only has 9 MT) until Katarina comes around.

It's true that Linde does have a minor advantage with Aura doing a good amount of damage, but its uses are limited. Chapter 3 has Ballistae all over the place, so she won't be entering those areas until they're cleared. Furthermore, if we're getting Bord she'll be helping with scrap work while giving everyone else the EXP. Since the most efficient way is to have her attack first, then a combat unit, she won't always get the EXP (unless we adjust it for her, which we can in some instances). Chapter 3X helps a little bit... but the flying units are doing most of the work. Chapter 4 she's necessary for a turn, then holding forts down from reinforcements. Chapter 5 wants more mounted units than anything else; most foot units get in the way. Chapter 6 is roughly the same scenario, except there's a small push within the first 2 turns. 6X is done in one turn, and... the uses get more and more limited as the good characters improve around her.

C3: 1 ballista. However, I find it best to have Linde stay near starting position and help with the dracos that are pulled down. Aura will likely finish off any weakened dracos (you use a 1 range character to lure them down anyways), and Hunter!Gordin Steel Bow + Aura will finish off a full health draco (and it's best to have Linde finish it off because Linde actually has the growths to be useful later on). It's not particularly hard to get Linde 2 levels here.

C3x: She CAN get an armor kill on turn 1 if you're willing to have Marth take a hit (which isn't a problem if you have him chug a vuln use or two...and from my experience, we have no shortage of vulneraries even if you're reckless with them). She also nabs a kill from a turn 4 reinforcement if you wish.

C4: Kills off a bandit on turn 1. In a 7 turn strat, goes hogwild finishing off weakened bandits lured to the west to allow Marth to drop down. I think she's...level 7 by now?

C5: Fun level for Linde. Chip kills a thief on turn 2 (I have Catria in pegasus go to mountains and jav the thief, then Aura finish him off; this prevents the northern-most cav from attacking either Catria or Linde and instead suicide himself onto Caeda. Linde uses the shaver tome (again, free unless you 5-6 turn C4) to massively damage or outright OHKO the dracos, who are flying bags of experience. Lure the snipers with KillerBow!Ryan on turn 9 (I'm assuming hammerne acquisition; theoretically, this could be turn 7, but trust me when I say this isn't feasible on an efficiency), who should be able to avoid being doubled and ORKO'd and will OHKO on a crit. The last (essentially risk-free, since Marth caps before EP) turn involves Linde chipping to kill a sniper. She's now probably level 9-10 in my playthroughs.

C6: The pace of the map is dictated by a unit with 6 MOV (Sorceror!Arran). Linde has 6 MOV (oh hai there~). She can double and ORKO the armors on turn 2 and 6 (9-10 SPD) if she got lucky with SPD at all or is RP'd -- she can at least chip them for another unit to kill. She's probably your best choice besides Ryan to finish off the sniper in your way too, and promoted enemies = easy exp.

C6x: Either can rescue if rescue needs to be hammerne'd by Mal or can chip kill/kill an armor/fighter. Short level, not much to be done here. She can finish off the boss, but I always feed the kill to Ryan to make sure he gets the exp, since he has a tendency to fall behind on levels (before promotion) without dracos around.

C7: Again, can rescue (if you're doing the 2 rescue strat) with Mal for experience (and even if it brings her to level as a cleric, at least she makes better use of the gains than everybody except Yumina and lolYubello). Can't do much combat-wise. Alternatively, can finish off the fire dragon or can actually solo him with a RP (SDS did this, I don't).

...She's usually on a good foot at this point, with probably half to 3/4 of her Aura uses left. It's just a matter of training her right when you get her -- she's not a liability to train and makes certain strats easier to pull of because of massive Aura chip. She also starts getting access to a +1 MAG/+1 RES and +2 MAG shards, which she practically lays sole claim to (Mal suffers from that whole MAG/2 formula, so she doesn't benefit nearly as much from them).

Malliesia comes with being the only user for Hammerne. Debate over?

Furthermore, Malliesia and Yumina don't want to be combat units; they want to thrive on healing the units.

You can (and I'd recommend) you raise both. That way, you don't NEED to use Etzel or Katarina if one of the two is screwed, hedging the odds in your favor. And that's the point...one heals, one kills. Linde and Mal never impede on each other's experience territory save very rare and limited circumstances, the likes of which cannot be said for Mal and Yumina.

Fire Dragon has the issue of doubling her, and that Dragon is best ignored anyway. It's 2,500 Gold, yes, but the Dragon also has 34 Atk and 20 Spd. There aren't many units that can really... well... survive against him. Not to mention there's 41 HP | 12 Def to pierce. I can't remember how flexible you could be with this chapter to be honest... but it seems like a bigger pain in the ass than what it's worth.

Anybody who can't fly (save Feena, Marth, and Nabarrl, for obvious reasons) is worth almost absolutely nothing in this chapter, because the map is filled with forest. I just send merc/myrm!Luke, a fast decoy who can take a hit from the dragon, Linde, and Caeda (I think I have around 4 that are picking their ass in this chapter) and then lure the dragon with the decoy, whack with Devil Sword Luke, and finish off with the help of Aura. Caeda then helps them to kill some cav/armor reinforcements to farm free exp after physic is acquired.

So instead of giving a Seraph Robe to a unit that can possibly make 2HKOes into 3HKOes, we're going to give it to someone who dies in a stiff breeze and can attack from 2 range?

Okay.

Who goes from 2HKO to 3HKO consistently with an Angelic Robe? Against a 30 ATK unit, the only guy I see using the Angelic Robe that way is Sirius...and then it begins to fail a bit against 37 ATK fire dragons in C12 unless he's level 9-10 or higher by that time (or is fed a RP use and is level 7-8 or higher). It fails against 40 ATK enemies unless he's level 13-14 (or 11-12 with RP, I think). This is assuming pally or draco, and draco will start to fail a bit when it starts getting doubled late in the game. Again, Sirius is probably one of the better candidates for the Angelic Robe as well, and we have at least 2 of them available (one in C7 and one in C11) without counting Lunatic Statboosters.

I'm not completely blind; I'm aware of it. I'm also aware how superfluous it is after a certain point. The main issue? 6 Mov is a drag. A huge one. Later chapters do have to use a little more higher Spd-capped units (i.e. Swordmaster), but Sage has the disadvantage of having -1-4 Mov, pathetic durability, and usually terrible AS. Linde has to be about 20/1, with Rainbow Potion, to double Ice Dragons in Chapter 14. Tell me good sir, when does this happen.

Well, my Linde on H3 is, as we speak,...level 16 on C11? She'll be nabbing 1-2 wyvern kills on the way to the speedwing there. Getting the speedwing by turn 5 requires either a flyer, who I can't afford, or a 6 MOV unit unphased by terrain, and I can't afford Etzel; I've just gotten Merric and Ellerean, except they're both doubled even with RP, while Linde is not. For the sake of full disclosure, this is a LTC run, not an efficiency, so the parallels aren't perfect, but it does mean I've gotten Linde to level 16 in fewer turns than efficiency.

Shaver requires I think a 1-2 turn penalty, and it hurts you up north a lot because Castor is pretty useful with the Ogma group.*

*Note to self - get on those videos soon.

Well, having re-done my LTC run too many times to admit, I can tell you I know FOR SURE Shaver costs turns only when you 5-6 turn it; to 5-6 turn it, you need like a 23+ DEF Draco!MU (yes, in C4), Marth has to avoid one of two attacks with 80% displayed hit, and Marth has to crit with the rapier (you get one battle save use before you attempt this) -- in other words, a task relegated only to LTC runs like mine and not efficiency like is assumed in this tier list.

Turn 1: Gordin chips thief, Marth finishes for free experience.

Turn 2: Marth visits shaver village, gets rescued.

Turn 3: Castor time!

It takes 4 turns to capture from when Castor is recruited, so you safely 7 turn it.

Except they both kind of go hand-in-hand. Look at your General Gilliam. He was an awesome combat unit, but I'm sure he was a pain in the ass as far as getting from point A to point B, wasn't he?

I just tend to seperate them. I mean, Athos is badass, but he's only there for 1 chapter, so he can't contribute much in the grand scheme of things. Do I wrap availability with combat as well?

Edited February 13, 2012 by Kngt_Of_Titania

[Colonel M]

Caeda and Catria > Sirius

[22:11:27] <@Paperblade> why was Sirius ever put above Catria in the first place

[22:12:07] <@Paperblade> his questionable luck making him prone to random critblicks for the entire game was enough for me to say Catria > Sirius

[22:12:08] <&Colonel_M> I think I saw his earlygame just a little too much

[22:12:31] <@Paperblade> plus Catria's support list

[22:12:33] <@Paperblade> is like

[22:12:37] <@Paperblade> godly

[22:13:11] <&Colonel_M> She also makes one of the best Falcoknights

[22:13:27] <&Colonel_M> Which still matters

[22:14:43] * Gryz (Gryz@synIRC-D9D3BF53.insight.res.rr.com) has joined #feto

[22:16:31] <@Paperblade> I am pretty sure that a 10/1 Catria is just better than Sirius

[22:16:53] <@Paperblade> since the only class that Sirius can go that Catria cares about is Horseman

[22:17:21] <&Colonel_M> That's pretty much it

[22:17:24] <&Colonel_M> And to be honest

[22:17:29] <@Paperblade> and that's like

[22:17:31] <&Colonel_M> It takes a lot of strain to get him there

[22:17:31] <@Paperblade> SUPER lategame

[22:17:34] <@Paperblade> yeah

[22:17:39] <&Colonel_M> Like

[22:17:44] <&Colonel_M> You definitely need Speedwings

[22:17:47] <&Colonel_M> Rainbow Potion

[22:17:48] <@Paperblade> Horseman is like "Well I could go Sniper but my stats are so overkill I think I will drop to lower bases for more moev"

[22:17:49] <&Colonel_M> Starsphere

[22:17:50] <@Paperblade> *move

[22:18:05] <&Colonel_M> Horseman was pretty useful

[22:18:05] <@Paperblade> on H4 I had Ryan in Horseman and he did good

[22:18:07] <@Paperblade> but my Ryan was awesome

[22:18:20] <&Colonel_M> But it wasn't necessarily "needed" until maybe Chapter 21 / 22

[22:18:28] <@Paperblade> yeah

[22:18:30] <&Colonel_M> And by that point

[22:18:33] <&Colonel_M> You have the stat boosters

[22:18:38] <&Colonel_M> To help fill the gaps

[22:18:48] <@Paperblade> I mostly did it to kill Meteor Sorcs without having to tank a hit from them first

[22:18:52] <&Colonel_M> Yeah

[22:19:19] <&Colonel_M> I liked Horseman because it had the 9 Mov and Bows while still having Swords when needed.

[22:19:19] <Gryz> In my Lunatic run, I had Sirius mostly in Sniper after his initial super cool Dracoknight period wears off.

[22:20:30] <@Paperblade> Colonel_M can you c/d that you are the bEst

[22:20:54] <&Colonel_M> c/d?

[22:21:01] <&Colonel_M> Copy -> DESTROY

[22:21:31] <&Colonel_M> Actually the weird thing with Sirius, well Luck-wise.

[22:21:32] * @GeneralSpoon (~chatzilla@EF7E42D3.14892650.5B04A98E.IP) Quit (Ping timeout)

[22:21:50] <&Colonel_M> Usually (and I hint "usually") the RP helped clear the critblick issue

[22:21:55] <&Colonel_M> Obviously this wasn't constant

[22:22:02] <&Colonel_M> Since Snipers obviously exist

[22:22:25] <&Colonel_M> Thankfully Palla has just a good enough base to curb around her isshu

[22:23:13] <Gryz> Was that Pokemon pun intended?

[22:23:20] <&Colonel_M> Rule of thumb with me

[22:23:24] <&Colonel_M> All puns are intended

Catria and Caeda have some pretty big advantages on Sirius.

Catria has:

- Access to Falcoknight

Falcoknight is actually a significant class. It flies, it has +2 Spd, and best of all its Speed cap is just good enough to do its usual trippy shit. An added bonus is it can use Lady Sword, which can help in fiascos where Lances aren't very good (Warriors for example). I tried getting Catria to C Swords in my Lunatic runthrough for Levin Sword and Armorslayer, but to be honest it wasn't worth it at the end of the day. Not that it really matters since Lady Sword kind of covers what you need to, which only leaves a minor weakness in Armored units.

Furthermore, FalcoKnight's Spd cap is just good enough to take advantage of the enemies:

- Capped Catria will only be doubled by the absolute late-game Swordmasters (they only exist for Chapter 22). She even avoids being doubled by Flying Dragons, which is huge.

- 26 Spd doubles up to Chapter 18 (without Starsphere). This is kind of important, since routing the village over in Chapter 18 requires 26 AS to double the Paladins.

- With the Starsphere, she can double Chapter 19's Warriors, Paladins, and Horsemen.

Ceada has:

- Access to Wing Spear

I actually find this a lot more important than some people let off. Okay, it might not be as significant as it was in Shadow Dragon, but its impact is still pretty obvious. She's probably one of the only other flying units that can tackle bosses in Chapter 15, 18, and 19 since they're all Generals. Furthermore, most of the time the mounted units won't have any upper hands on armored enemies. The only two that might are My Unit and Minerva, and Minerva can be hard to incorporate in a H3 playthrough without making some sacrifices. Furthermore, those two require a Starsphere (or in My Unit's case, it will require a Move penalty) while Caeda can also seek Paladin for its superior Spd cap to DracoKnights. Oh yes, and Wing Spear has +20 base Hit over Ridersbane. Nothing dramatic, but it helps keep accuracy up there.

For reference, Skl-capped Palla with 12 Luck has 102 Hit before supports. Paladins have 20 Avoid in Chapter 15. A Caeda with max Luck and roughly 15 Skl (fairly simple) has 115 Hit before supports.

Caeda does have some issues (her durability can get rocky sometimes, and her Str isn't significantly "awesome"), but those two weaknesses are slightly easier to fix than Sirius's.

Sirius has a few advantages, yes. His earlygame does help his case, and he's able to be carried throughout the game. The issue is that you're almost dragging him just because he's just able to do what he has to do. Him being a Horseman is difficult as hell. It takes a Speedwing, Rainbow Potion, and Starsphere nearly glued onto him (with a minor exception to Chapter 14, where it probably doesn't take the Starsphere). Dont' forget that there's also the Arms Scroll slap equipped to it. This is Sirius's only "unique" class to Caeda and Catria. Now, Horseman is good, but it's only very necessary in maybe 3 chapters: 21, 22, and 23. While it's a welcome addition in the other chapters, the cost of getting him to that point is pretty significant.

Furthermore, Sirius shows a lot of weakness roughly around midgame in the desert. Actually, it kind of shows as early as Chapter 9, but he's one of the few units that can OHKO Mages in 10 without major assistance (Minerva and maybe Palla being the others). You had Sirius at about Level 7 by Chapter 11, and most of the time he was DracoKnight. Sounds... about right. Now here's where the issues begin:

Base Spd: 9.9.

Okay, this doesn't sound too bad, but the issue is that DracoKnight is slipping right out of his grasp. DracoKnight Sirius has 16.9 Spd. That gets him doubled by the Flying Dragons. Thankfully, and I hint thankfully, he still has offense to keep him going (he can still wield a Dragonpike), but taking more than a hit is obviously going to hurt. Furthermore, this means he'll have to seek another class if he wants to double the enemies. This is where it gets difficult:

- Paladin doesn't change his base Spd, which means that his A Lances kind of got tossed out of the window.

- Horseman shoots his AS up to 17.9, which helps a little bit. No Silver Bows, but Silver Swords / Wyrmslayer helps alleviate that I guess.

- Sniper shoots his AS up to 18.9, which is still mildly too slow to double the Fire Dragons.

- The two mentioned classes above can function here, but it takes a Speedwing (which might have to be purchased in the stat booster shop) and the Rainbow Potion to do so.

- Hero is "okay". He retains Silver Sword and Wyrmslayer access and has 20.9 Spd, which is a little closer to doubling with Rainbow Potion used. There's no 2-range aside from Levin Sword.

- Swordmaster can naturally double the Fire Dragons. Again, no 2 range, but maybe less of a big deal.

The issue is this chain constantly continues. I'm not completely holding his cost of a Speedwing against him (as Palla too needs a Speedwing to continue chugging along), but the primary problem is that he's looking more bleaker by the minute. His Spd is starting to sour just a little too much. I think he also could really use some swing time in the arena to help buffer his lack of being able to gain CEXP as quickly as, say, Palla can. The main thing is that Sirius' base Spd is just a little too weak and his growth isn't exactly strong enough to keep him constantly on a mount, which means he might sometimes have to face going on foot. Now, foot units aren't terrible in all situations, but being able to move around as much as possible kind of helps a lot more. Horseman can kind of last on Sirius, but it takes a lot to keep him in there.

If you want a tl;dr version of the argument:

- I'm not completely going dondon / possibly Paperblade and saying Sirius completely sucks (they don't really say this, but I want to set the record straight). Though, I really do think that Sirius does kind of have a slew of issues.

- Catria does still help a bit in the earlygame before Sirius arrives, and she does do pretty well once she hits FalcoKnight.

- Caeda may have a minor Str problem, but the pathway to fixing that is a little more forgiving than possibly Sirius's Spd problem. Caeda is luckily in a game where, if you aren't smacking enemies with effective weapons, it's kind of hard to ORKO them. Warriors in Chapter 17, for example, takes 27 Str to ORKO with Lady Sword. The only units probably ORKOing them is... My Unit. Maybe Palla, but even I doubt that a little.

- Sirius does sometimes have a sirius problem with CEV, even on regular units. This can be pretty problematic; especially lategame.

I'll even give Sirius one more fair comparison throughout this runthrough. I decided that I might not try using Minerva or anyone else (maybe Luke, but I have a feeling he's not going to turn out), so his CEXP gain might be a little better. My plan was to spoonfeed as many bosskills on him as possible (since it's the best answer for his CEXP problem most of the time) and have some "occasional" use in the arena to help buffer his level. I honestly think that the inevitable will happen though, and Sirius will bend his knee before the hot vixens Catria and Caeda.

Catria & Caeda > Sirius Brigade, untie!

Also lower Linde she sux.

Edited May 16, 2012 by Colonel M

[dondon151]

cue SDS raeging

also your goal is to get sirius to --/13 by chapter 15; i think he can be decent by then

[Colonel M]

I forgot about the Lances giving +5 Hit at B. So it's 107 for Palla and 120 for Caeda. And by max Luck I just meant 20 Luck.

(Thanks for pointing it out Gryz!)

Edited May 16, 2012 by Colonel M

[Dark Sage]

Also while we're at it, move Bord and Athena to Free Silvers and possibly drop Wrys as well. Wrys and Athena don't have any excuse to be as high as they are since Prologue is not counted on this list apparently. As for Bord, he is complete trash. I used him in 3x and found the following:

1. Bord has a 1% chance to be critblicked and is 2HKO'd by everything.

2. Bord can't OHKO armors with a hammer without a forge on it.

So yeah. I would probably move for Gordin to maybe rise above Roger and Navarre due to he can OHKO Dracoknights with a Steel Bow forge early on while the Roger and Navarre are basically growth units. Maybe Wendell could go above Warren or Cain, but then again, Warren can contribute valuable chip in the Draco heavy maps and Wendell is sort of made redundant by other units (although he could possibly fulfill Etzel's role pretty well sans the Gharnef killing since he has the same staff rank + Excalibur and both suck at combat later and you can use someone else to kill Gharnef). Cain doesn't really seem to have an adequate excuse to be as high as he is due to his lol 10 speed base and prologue utility not being counted.

[Anouleth]

Also while we're at it, move Bord and Athena to Free Silvers and possibly drop Wrys as well. Wrys and Athena don't have any excuse to be as high as they are since Prologue is not counted on this list apparently. As for Bord, he is complete trash. I used him in 3x and found the following:

1. Bord has a 1% chance to be critblicked and is 2HKO'd by everything.

2. Bord can't OHKO armors with a hammer without a forge on it.

So yeah. I would probably move for Gordin to maybe rise above Roger and Navarre due to he can OHKO Dracoknights with a Steel Bow forge early on while the Roger and Navarre are basically growth units.

Well, some two centuries ago I pointed out that even if you half-ass it, Gordin can catch up to Jeorge statistically by the time he joins and is only a Master Seal away from being strictly better (10/1 Gordin beats Jeorge in just about everything). A Master Seal is a pretty significant cost, though.

[PKL]

Well, some two centuries ago I pointed out that even if you half-ass it, Gordin can catch up to Jeorge statistically by the time he joins and is only a Master Seal away from being strictly better (10/1 Gordin beats Jeorge in just about everything). A Master Seal is a pretty significant cost, though.

Average 10/1 Gordin: 32.5 HP 13.5 Str 1 Mag 13.75 Skl 12.75 Spd 7.5 Lck 10.25 Def 3 Res Bow B and a half probably

Average 10/1 Ryan: 33.2 HP 14 Str 1 Mag 15.95 Skl 13.25 Spd 6.6 Lck 10.9 Def 3 Res Bow B and a half too most likely

Base Jeorge: 32 HP 12 Str 1 Mag 14 Skl 14 Spd 5 Lck 13 Def 3 Res Bow A

Base Jeorge beats Hunter->Sniper 10/1 Gordin in spd by 1.25, skl by .25 and def by 2.75 as well as in bow rank. While gordin beats jeorge in Str by 1.5 and lck by 2.5. I dont see how Gordin is beating him in everything, All three of these guys are very similar though o_O. Ryan's averages are as an Archer up to level 5 then 5 hunter levels.

Edited May 18, 2012 by PKL

[Paperblade]

The stat differences hardly matter (Jeorge's A bows only makes up for his Strength loss) but Ryan and Gordin have 8 chapters of helping (And they are pretty awesome at killing Dracoknights in Ch. 2/3/5), similar growths (I would argue Ryan's are better). Ryan and Gordin also have much better support lists. Ryan gives a support to MU and Luke/Rody, while Gordin supports Draug. Jeorge supports... no one of note really (unless you are really intend to use both Gordin and Jeorge)

[PKL]

Yeah, ryan is definetely the best of the 3 in my experience. He has all the prologue for himself. gordin doesnt even have prologue since we are never gonna pass up on athena due to how clutch she is and ryan's growths are just plain better. I was just saying that an average 10/1 gaggles isnt beating jeorge at just about anything, he is just tying his stats. Of course, when you factor in availability, gordin is obviously > jeorge. But, ryan is beating both of them statiscally and in availability. And in gordin vs ryan, ryan will also have a bow rank lead over him. EDIT: Also, i join the catria>sirius bandwagon. Sirius got on my nerves, getting crit constantly and making me restart. Even with RP, he was still facing crit chances.

Edited May 18, 2012 by PKL

[dondon151]

why isn't wendell in unique utility along with etzel if wrys is in unique utility along with yumina and malliesia?

why isn't wendell in unique utility along with etzel if caeda, catria, palla, and luke are in top/high tier and rody and draug aren't in bottom tier?

[Colonel M]

Yeah Wendell and WRhys should join the other staffwhores in Unique Utility, or get them the fuck out of said Unique Utility.

They both can use staves, Wendell gets the upper gun on his staff rank in comparison to Etzel (which does matter; Wendell getting access to Recover and 6 Mov helps while Mallieisia is leveling up; early promotion isn't the greatest idea on her) and it has been shown that WRhys can also combat Gharnef with minor favoritism (Anouleth and I posted it in the Wrys rating topic).

[dondon151]

so is SDS just refusing to yield or something

cuz he was definitely viewing this topic when CM and i made our previous posts

Edited May 18, 2012 by dondon151

[grandjackal]

Just so I have this clear in my head, what is this talk of the archers and them somehow being good? I'm pretty sure they're just "Use because you have to, then drop immediately for people who don't suck".

Otherwise I'm still pretty much of the opinion that not many units in this game are really worth talking about. Arguing about if Caeda or Paula is better than Sirius is like asking what your favorite shade of grey is. Unless there are huge developments that I've completely missed.