H3 (Lunatic) Tier List

[Caliban of Sycorax]

Well I dunno why Rody is that high to begin with, I wouldn't really consider Minerva great as a Draco. Ok, but not great. I would think more that she doesn't need much to be generally good at anything you want her to would be a better focal point. Well, for her start anyways. Long term is probably her least substantial point, as like others (namely Paula or Sirius), she does need Speedwings here and there.

As for Rody, to argue him lower, he needs to be 14/1 just to match Minerva though has higher Lance rank. This will be easier said than done considering that he starts as an unpromoted lance rank unit with awful bases, which is practically a death sentence. I'm pretty much forced to use him prologue just so he can be bad instead of unusable. He's not like Luke who is actually usable even without prologue action, or Cecile who has actual combat if given prologue time. He's just Draug without the speed that makes Draug usable and good. It's a lot to put up with just to get him to 14 by the time Minerva drops in and is just him with better ranks and took absolutely 0 resources to get there.

His only strengths is having all the time in the world to build up other weapon ranks (Since I doubt anyone would want to keep him cav), and a better lategame. But I feel the resources and effort needed just to tie up with Minerva kinda dampens him in comparison.

I personally wouldn't reclass Minerva outside of Draco because of the fact that she flies (huge bonus especially in lategame when there's mountains forever--she and other flyers can guard necessary villages from Thieves until Marth arrives). Also she doesn't have access to another class that takes advantage of her awesome Axe rank, sure she could go Pally and still use Dragonpikes and other decent Lances but I feel like Draco's her best class. She does need Speedwings later on to keep doubling/not be doubled but who else will need them?

Dolph is not necessary his starting chapter, and is ass at everything. So, no.

Fair enough. It was a stray thought.

[eclipse]

I personally wouldn't reclass Minerva outside of Draco because of the fact that she flies (huge bonus especially in lategame when there's mountains forever--she and other flyers can guard necessary villages from Thieves until Marth arrives). Also she doesn't have access to another class that takes advantage of her awesome Axe rank, sure she could go Pally and still use Dragonpikes and other decent Lances but I feel like Draco's her best class. She does need Speedwings later on to keep doubling/not be doubled but who else will need them?

Speedwings? Off the top of my head. . .Sirius could use them, Palla if she starts falling behind, possibly Marth for endgame, Darros, and most definitely Belf.

[Dark Sage]

Luke and Ogma can be fairly borderline on their speed so they benefit from a wing. Barst also needs to take a wing to double as a Berserker later in the game.

Also Minerva is not better than Rody. First of all, Rody joins earlier which means he's contributing longer. Second of all Rody is pretty much the same unit as Luke anyway and using an Altean precludes using another so you can't really penalize Rody for taking away experience from Luke in the prologue. Thirdly having a better sword rank is only relevant for like, Chapter 1 and Chapter 4. Rody's better Lance rank is better for midgame and lategame because you don't have to work very hard to get him to wield Dragonpikes/Ridersbanes and he can still dip into Swordmaster for Wyrmslayer/Armorslayer access. In contrast, it takes a lot more dedication to get Luke/Cecile to get to that rank and it's possible for them to not have access to those weapons for a long time. You can also make Rody a Pirate earlygame and have him do alright in maps where he doesn't want to be a cavalier.

Also Minerva has some issues herself, namely that's she seriously blows in this game. She's basically Sirius with less flexible weapon ranks, worse strength and no earlygame utility. Her lategame is worse than Sirius's and everyone knows Sirius kind of falls off lategame. Seriously, dondon outlined the reasons she's so bad a couple of pages back. She needs a bunch of contested resources (a combination of like, 2 drops, 1 or 2 speedwings, and maybe other statboosters) to not suck lategame.

[grandjackal]

Also Minerva is not better than Rody. First of all, Rody joins earlier which means he's contributing longer.

Define contributing. Like, what does he actually do?

Second of all Rody is pretty much the same unit as Luke anyway and using an Altean precludes using another so you can't really penalize Rody for taking away experience from Luke in the prologue.

I can penalize him for sucking with it, however. Lances offer him nothing before promotion, and he himself offers nothing particularly effective. Putting exp into a unit to be Draug without the speed to double is a terrible use of exp.

Thirdly having a better sword rank is only relevant for like, Chapter 1 and Chapter 4. Rody's better Lance rank is better for midgame and lategame because you don't have to work very hard to get him to wield Dragonpikes/Ridersbanes and he can still dip into Swordmaster for Wyrmslayer/Armorslayer access.

This sounds like something that Minerva can do without resources.

In contrast, it takes a lot more dedication to get Luke/Cecile to get to that rank and it's possible for them to not have access to those weapons for a long time

Well with chapters 2 and 3, Luke and Cecile are already doubling, Cecile namely with the Lady Sword (Before you say Catria, Catria's so good she doesn't even need it). Case in point-

You can also make Rody a Pirate earlygame and have him do alright in maps where he doesn't want to be a cavalier.

Not as helpful as you may think. Chapter 2 for example, 6 move is simply intollerable. The map can be over before they literally run into anything, case in point being that an archer and hunter are just barely able to reach the lower right fortress to attack a Dracoknight after it goes south. With Luke as perhaps a Merc, he could probably reach said fort to at least bring the draco in, or cut through the forest to actually get work done. Cecile has the odd option of going Pegasus to act as forward support for the likes of Catria, able to snipe a kill or two with the aid of Warren. Chapter 3 I'll let slide since at the bridge, waterwalk lets me have an extra space to attack from to break through the bridge forwards towards the castle. Chapter 4, being mounted allows a unit after dealing with the starting forces to head right in time to pull pirates away from Ogma and co with the fliers, which is an actual contribution to short turning the chapter (mostly a win for Cecile here). Chapter 5, a mounted Armorslayer is infinitely more useful than mounted lances or waterwalk or his now only average lance rank will ever be, same going for chapter 6. Chapter 7 and 8 are the word fuck, and then 9 happens.

Basically what I'm saying is that though yes he can match combat, he is also killing his own contribution and exp opportunities this way, thus will probably lag in levels in comparison to the other two for it along with contribute less overall.

Also Minerva has some issues herself, namely that's she seriously blows in this game. She's basically Sirius with less flexible weapon ranks, worse strength and no earlygame utility. Her lategame is worse than Sirius's and everyone knows Sirius kind of falls off lategame. Seriously, dondon outlined the reasons she's so bad a couple of pages back. She needs a bunch of contested resources (a combination of like, 2 drops, 1 or 2 speedwings, and maybe other statboosters) to not suck lategame.

So she's worse than Sirius. Oh no, that's terrible.

There is also the fact that there are a billion stat boosters we can just recklessly throw, Minerva showing up like a chapter before we get a bunch of them. It's a far easier problem to fix compared to Rody's problem of being the worst investment of exp for early performance to which is his supposed strength against Minerva. Both have their price tag in a sense, and I'm far more willing to throw gold at someone than exp.

So I don't really care how stubborn dondon is with resources, that's his problem.

[Anouleth]

EXP is not a resource, however, in the traditional sense. I cannot save EXP. I cannot choose not to kill those cavaliers in Chapter 2 and wait until Chapter 9 to have Minerva kill them. It's true that if Rody kills them, then other units cannot kill them. However, it is true of any unit, so I do not see how that makes Rody underperforming in earlygame. In addition, killing enemies is useful. It is not a negative, like you imply.

[grandjackal]

EXP is not a resource, however, in the traditional sense. I cannot save EXP. I cannot choose not to kill those cavaliers in Chapter 2 and wait until Chapter 9 to have Minerva kill them. It's true that if Rody kills them, then other units cannot kill them. However, it is true of any unit, so I do not see how that makes Rody underperforming in earlygame. In addition, killing enemies is useful. It is not a negative, like you imply.

It is a negative if that's all you can do when you have units that can do that and more, to which there is plenty. Anyone with a pulse can kill an enemy. If he is doing less than others with this resource, why am I fielding him when I could have more useful units around?

Minerva does not have this issue since you don't have to necessarily use her long term. She can just class swap to whatever is vaguely useful to you for chapters 11-14, then boot her if you're so inclined. I do not have this option with Rody until promotion, to which point he's most likely similar to Minerva or Roger anyways (14/1 to be exact), both of whom I didn't have to waste resources on to get to that point.

[Paperblade]

Why should Rody be punished for being worse than Luke when it's already reflected in Luke being higher on the tier list?

[grandjackal]

Why should Rody be punished for being worse than Luke when it's already reflected in Luke being higher on the tier list?

It's not just Luke, he's possibly the worst contender for a deployment slot as soon as chapter 2. This is not reflected on the list.

[Paperblade]

That didn't answer my question.

Why is Rody being worse than Luke an advantage for Minerva, who is also worse than Luke?

[grandjackal]

That didn't answer my question.

Why is Rody being worse than Luke an advantage for Minerva, who is also worse than Luke?

Ok, why are you even bringing Luke into this? It's not even Luke specifically, it's that even with exp investment, Rody brings the least to the table compared to the rest of your team early on. As he's already competing for a deployment slot as soon as chapter 2, it would mean fielding him is a negative. If fielding him is a negative, it does not justify the exp he would need just to catch up to Minerva, to which he may not reach that level by her arrival considering his performance, be it either being a mediocre cavalier, or being a pirate which as shown can suffer from low movement issues, which reduces the opportunity to get more exp. If he can't get the exp just to reach base Minerva, why is he above her?

That was my point, and as you can see in this short summary, Luke was never a specific focus of the argument. So why did you even bring him up?

[Silith]

Minerva's base stats are verry similar to a level 15 Rody (or 12/1 I guess) and she joins at chapter 9.

At the start of chapter 3 I have a level 6-7 Rody without much trouble and no feeding excessive amounts of exp that could've been better used on others. I don't know how much exp there is available in chapters 3-8 but 12/1 doesn't seem all that hard to attain.

Not to mention that Rody had D in lances and gets Javelin's halfway chapter 1 which makes him more versitile in the poking department.

I'm not argueing that he's Z0mg amazing just that I can see him sitting above Minerva.

(Now if he would only proc his Str more for me.)

[Seven Deadly Sins]

I had an average level 6 Rody in Ch1 and he was perfectly fine contributing. Rody isn't nearly the liability he's made out to be.

[Dark Sage]

btw Rody is actually pretty useful in Chapter 2 because Cavalier has the same mobility through forests that other units have (Mercs/Pirates/Myrms can only move 3 spaces, Cavs move 3 spaces) but better mobility elsewhere. Steel Lance/Javelin access is also great on this map. Not only does this mean that Rody is great for taking care of the Lady Sword thief, but he also doesn't face WTD and allows for easier 2HKOs on enemies and more versatility.

In Chapter 1, Rody isn't actually that much worse than Luke. Keep in mind that even a 7/0 Luke fails to ORKO Barbarians unless he gets the RP. 7/0 Rody has 9.9 speed on average so if manages to get 10 AS (90% chance), he can ORKO bandits as a Pirate with RP.

Cecile being a better unit than Rody early on is debateable, what with her being at risk of being oneshotted and all (Pegausus Knight Cecile gets 1HKOd by Soldiers and Archers unless she gets RP, which only protects her against soldiers and she's still stuck to Iron).

I also find GJ's arguments against Rody incredibly disingenuous because he handwaves Minverva's issues lategame with "we can just buy statboosters lategame to make her an actual longterm unit lolz" and then bitches about Rody needing resources to do anything, even though the only resource Rody needs is exp (which every single unit in the game needs to be good btw). This is ignoring that Rody isn't actually demanding any statboosters (or at least, no more than Luke does) and if it's ok to shower Minerva with a bunch of statboosters to fix all her issues, then you can do the same to Rody, except earlier in the game. It's also nowhere near as hard to get Rody up to 14/1 or 15/1 as GJ makes out. If Ogma can get to 12/1 by Chapter 9 or Barst 10/1, then Rody sure as fuck can get to a higher level, what with his earlier jointime and access to Prologue exp and stuff.

Edited January 13, 2013 by Tyrant Sage

[Caliban of Sycorax]

Why are we using Rody to kill the Lady Sword!Thief? Personally I use Draco!Arran, but that's just me. Arran gets him by Turn 2, 3 at the absolute latest, the same turn we recruit Warren and deal with the only real issue in that chapter for them, the bow users.

It's a minor point but we can't assume Rody's the only one who will kill the Lady Sword!Thief. It doesn't, in my opinion, completely detract from the rest of the contributions he makes.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Why are we using Rody to kill the Lady Sword!Thief? Personally I use Draco!Arran, but that's just me. Arran gets him by Turn 2, 3 at the absolute latest, the same turn we recruit Warren and deal with the only real issue in that chapter for them, the bow users.

It's a minor point but we can't assume Rody's the only one who will kill the Lady Sword!Thief. It doesn't, in my opinion, completely detract from the rest of the contributions he makes.

Sniper!Arran is generally really really useful for the dracos. Your second Altean Cav (Rody/Cecile) is usually the one that goes after them since they don't want to engage the Soldiers, but they can help deal with the Cavaliers later.

[Colonel M]

Sniper!Arran is a lot more useful in Chapter 2. Rainbow Potion lets him double the DracoKnights (barring the boss) and gives a powerful attack option on the boss. Furthermore, 2 ranging helps his durability to an extent, too.

[grandjackal]

Sniper!Arran is generally really really useful for the dracos. Your second Altean Cav (Rody/Cecile) is usually the one that goes after them since they don't want to engage the Soldiers, but they can help deal with the Cavaliers later.

I don't even think he can reach the soldiers before they're dead. As for the thief, Catria can pretty much deal with him on her own.

I also find GJ's arguments against Rody incredibly disingenuous because he handwaves Minverva's issues lategame with "we can just buy statboosters lategame to make her an actual longterm unit lolz" and then bitches about Rody needing resources to do anything, even though the only resource Rody needs is exp (which every single unit in the game needs to be good btw). This is ignoring that Rody isn't actually demanding any statboosters (or at least, no more than Luke does) and if it's ok to shower Minerva with a bunch of statboosters to fix all her issues, then you can do the same to Rody, except earlier in the game. It's also nowhere near as hard to get Rody up to 14/1 or 15/1 as GJ makes out. If Ogma can get to 12/1 by Chapter 9 or Barst 10/1, then Rody sure as fuck can get to a higher level, what with his earlier jointime and access to Prologue exp and stuff.

Fine, let's use math.

Rody comes out of Prologue level 6 (A more accurate prediction would be 5, but considering most of the things you're claiming about Pirate Rody only happen if he's level 8 I'll go ahead and be generous). He is base Draug with 2 less speed, which is 2 less than the amount needed to double Hunters with an RP use (and 10 AS Bandits ignore him even if he were to be given wings). Even if he could kill, at beast he'd score 2-3 over the course of the map, giving him a grand total of...28-42 exp. Even if we assume a level, it's still not enough to double Soldiers.

Chapter 2. Turn 2 is basically Arran, Catria, Marth, and/or Cecile+Warren killing the hunters depending on how they bothered to position themselves. Considering that Marth might not be in range due to the AI, or that Arran needs the most forward position to do it shows that Pirate Rody cannot do ths due to 6 move+melee, nor would i want him to try as a cav since trying to attack hunters in the forest with a javelin while not killing them is a bad thing. Then comes the soldiers. By then, Draug and MU are in the fray (this is considering Cav MU by the way, not sure if Fighter MU reclassing to cav or something else can do the same), MU of which can ORKO a soldier himself, and Arran another. We have Catria, Warren and Cecile for this, Catria of which comes able to double with a javelin herself, along with Luke as a backup if things go pear shaped. We can consider this a kill Rody can realistically get in this case. So, Marth is probably wanting a position to take on a cav with a Rapier, and someone wants to intercept the left and right cavaliers (most likely Catria and Draug). These kills are easy, and I could assume them on just about anyone. So, another for Rody. Then come the dracos, and now we have a problem. Catria+Warren can kill a draco on their own (Especially easy if she is given a Weapon Scroll for the Silver Lance no one is using). MU can murder one and then go on the other, thus allowing Arran to line up a shot for the boss. This leaves the boss at an annoying amount of HP (namely, 9). Draug with 2-3 levels will have the Str to do this, or at base you can just give him an Energy Drop. A trained Luke could nab this. A trained Rody is in the same problem base Draug is, except on top of it I don't have Draug's speed. So in the case of untrained Luke and base Draug, Rody forces me to spend 2500 I may not have needed to. So 2 kills, and even so generously a boss kill. 124 exp. As shown in this sense, just to be on equal footing, he would need both a Wing and a Drop. If not given the drop/Draug got the drop/Draug got +1 Str, that's around 97 exp Rody doesn't get. I'm going to be super nice and say Rody got it.

Chapter 3, he's now level 8 and has to be a Pirate what Draug or Cecile can do as Cavaliers, or what Linde with a Robe can do with the added benefit of ranged Aura. There is nothing special about anything he does here, but if used then he will get kills. A cav and 2 dracos. 126 exp.

He's not going to 3x, so Chapter 4, and he's showhorned as a Pirate because facing WTD and having no offense is bad. As a cavalier, one can take the right-most bandit near the start and still be able to move to pull pirates away from Ogma around the time reinforcements would arrive. Rody is not capable of doing this as a Pirate, of which he is forced to be if he wants to not be useless here. Being a Hunter would prove useless, because he doesn't have the speed. So, he gets 1 kill realistically. 10 exp.

Chapter 5, still level 9. He has a choice to make. Go Pirate to double, but have move speed cut you off from future exp opporunities (even with axes and waterwalk, he is not doing us favors breaking the armored bridge), or go cav and basically be a worse version of everyone else. Either way, it could be assumed 2 kills and maybe either the Sniper or the Draco. 79-84 exp. So, level 10.

Chapter 6. As everyone has stated before numerous times, if you don't have high move you aren't participating in the northern part of the map. Even as a cav though he'd be bad, cause 12 speed doesn't do me anything up there. Probably best to assume Pirate again and just get what he can. He'll have D rank axes by now, luckily enough, allowing him to 3HKO armors so he can kill one over the course of a turn. This is hardly contributing as even base Pirate Barst, a unit situated in Lower Mid, can do this without having to have been given the exp Rody needed. So, considering perhaps an armor and a mage at the start (if a heal even would let him do that), then maybe 2 reinforcement kills is 4 kills in total. 56 exp. May or may not be 11.

Chapter 7. Is doubled by the Fire Dragon even as a Pirate. Even for a character without wings, this sucks. But, that's about all most characters without wings are doing, so let's spoil him anyways. Dragon kill and 2 reinforcements. 66 exp. Securely 11 now.

Chapter 8. Best I can do is say assume 3 promoted enemy kills. 138 exp. So now level 12.

Chapter 9. Even if spoiled, he's gong to be around 13. Even if we assumed level 8 at first, would just around 14-15, as predicted. Since we have also seen that Rody is also kinda forced to be a Pirate in several chapters, he probably won't even have a significant Lance rank to boast against Minerva either.

So in the end we see that Rody simply is like...The only unit with earlygame issues. Just to match with guys who are basically upper mid, he would need a Wing. Now had I just trained Cecile or Luke, that's 2500 I wouldn't have had to spend or I could have gotten an even better character out of it.

Let's also consider Master Seals, as by the time Minerva shows up, we only have 4. To consider, we have MU, Catria, Paula, Shiida, or hte possibility of Luke/Cecile, possibly both since even low leveled Luke can get his exp share from chapter 1 onward (he'd be similar to Ogma in this case), possibly even Ogma and Roger as well. Along with 14 levels of exp, he also has a bill between 2500-7500 gold (Master Seal, Wings, possible Energy Drop). If Rody doesn't promote, he's going to suck in the following chapters, plain and simple, and of the 4 eals you hav better cantidates or cantidates who showed up about as good/better than him without exp investment. Minerva does not have this issue. Could load her up with these same 2 things, she'd be flying around able to ORKO Bandits with Steel (3HKOd no less), Hunters with Iron, and still deal between 34-33 damage to Flying Dragons with a Dragonpike for chapter 11, then can make use of class swap to do things such as kill Fire Dragons a a Swordmaster while only needing 1 strength shard, walk like a tank as a General with 40 HP and 23 Def (4RKOd by Fire Dragons/Devil Axes, 5RKOd by Tomhawks, though it's probably more significant in chapter 14 than in 12), be able to ORKO Ice Dragons using a Dragonpike with a Scorpio Shard as a Dracoknight, be able to deal with Dark Mages and Tomohawk bandits across the river in 13 with a Holy Water use, allowing better postioning along with clearing the path forward to the throne/be helpful in chapter 14. All without a 14 levels worth of exp tacked on and generally mediocre early performance we could have easily done without.

Is Rody's lategame better? Yes. Is it worth the early pain/mediocrity Rody brought us? No. So yeah, I will handwave all day, cause Minerva would still be cheaper.

Also yes, Sniper Arran is a bro in chapter 2.

Edited January 14, 2013 by grandjackal

[Silith]

Why would you attack the hunters with the javelin? You have a steel lance for that. You only pick up the javelin to hurt those soldiers and cavaliers later on.

[grandjackal]

Why would you attack the hunters with the javelin? You have a steel lance for that. You only pick up the javelin to hurt those soldiers and cavaliers later on.

The issue is getting in range to use steel before they're already dead.

[Silith]

You can easily reach them at turn 2. The only ones who couldn't reach them are the ones who are deployed at the bottom in the forest at the start, Marth and Cord (because they end at the wrong side at the end of turn 1)

[Paperblade]

Why is it not okay for Rody to be subpar but it's okay for Horace and Minerva and Linde and all the other dumbshit units GJ has tried to hype?

There is a huge difference between comparing a unit to the optimal decisions (which is pretty vague in itself because I don't know what we're actually tiering for here) or comparing them to "not having anything."

[grandjackal]

You can easily reach them at turn 2. The only ones who couldn't reach them are the ones who are deployed at the bottom in the forest at the start, Marth and Cord (because they end at the wrong side at the end of turn 1)

Ok great, he reaches them turn 2. He's still not killing them, which is the point. He shows up and does what might as well be nothing.

Why is it not okay for Rody to be subpar but it's okay for Horace and Minerva and Linde and all the other dumbshit units GJ has tried to hype?

If Minerva is a dumbshit unit, why am I pumping all these resources into Rody just so he ends up a weaker version of her? Or is Minerva not in fact a dumbshit unit? If she is, how are we tolerating Rody at all when we don't actually get anything out of him until way later in the game?

There is a huge difference between comparing a unit to the optimal decisions (which is pretty vague in itself because I don't know what we're actually tiering for here) or comparing them to "not having anything."

And in tiers, if it isn't optimal it's usually considered a negative is it not? Would you train a unit up even though the game just drops a better one for free down the road? No, and it's reflected in other lists. Pent is above Erk, Dozla is above Ross, and the like.

[Silith]

You need 5-6 characters who can ORKO those hunters?

Not as far as I know off. Weakening so someone else can finish is good enough. Then during turns 3-4 he can use his javelin to weaken the soldiers and cavaliers.

It's unlikely anyone besides Arran, Rody or MU can get reliable 1-2 range by then (unless you reclass someone into a mage)

Really it's the same as with archers. Archers arn't that great but they make early chapters so much easier because they can chip.

[Paperblade]

[19:24] <Druid> http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=21622&view=findpost&p=2017718

[19:24] <Druid> that's the link

[19:24] <Druid> and in the next few posts, gj is defending Rody

dipshit sandbagging and flip flopping based on whatever helps your argument at the time is what ruined tiers

Edited January 16, 2013 by Paperblade

[grandjackal]

[19:24] <Druid> http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=21622&view=findpost&p=2017718

[19:24] <Druid> that's the link

[19:24] <Druid> and in the next few posts, gj is defending Rody

dipshit sandbagging and flip flopping based on whatever helps your argument at the time is what ruined tiers

That was half a damn year ago, and I think we all know I have a habit of jumping to conclusions. Just an issue of what's taken seriously.

As for tiering being dead, it seems more that there is a set in stone mentality, or just simply no one really cares. Which is fair enough either way. I mean seriously, we already figured out the game anyways.

Side note: How is it of all times you guys decide to take me seriously now? If I'm being crazy, just ignore it. Thought we've been over this before.

So fine, Rody stays above Minerva cause spending money we weren't really using anyways is bad. Suppose I could at least bring up the next topic without barfing numbers up.

How you guys feel about George and Maric and their current positions?

Edited January 16, 2013 by Narga_Rocks