H3 (Lunatic) Tier List

[grandjackal]

The boss needs more Atk to be KOed, which does actually require Capricorn + Etzel IIRC.

EDIT: Just to figure, Leiden might need Speedwing to double as a Sniper in Chapter 15 assuming 2 Spd procs. Which is... kind of scary to think about.

If everyone is apparently not having a hard time doubling said sniper, then what is the issue of giving him one?

[Seven Deadly Sins]

*as* a Sniper, not doubling a specific one. Apparently Ch15/16 Paladins have 20 Spe.

Edited August 16, 2010 by Seven Deadly Sins

[grandjackal]

Ohhhhh, ok.

So, it seems Raiden's not all that bad eh? Alright then.

So, on to other matters I guess? Anyone got other arguments? All these characters are just so goddamn awkward.

Riddle me this. From chapter 5 onward, how much does 17 AS double? If the answer is "Quite a lot", then Ogma's thinking of a career change.

I wanna say something along the lines of Cav Navarre...But I'm not stupid...

GODDAMMIT, there is so little to work with! Even giving Midia a Speedwing she would getdoubled by goddamn swordmasters and flying dragons with 30 speed! Brightside though: Already close enough to A rank swords as a swordmaster, btu it doesn't help when you're still doubled by dragons and swordmasters along with OHKOd by lol 42 ATK Glower Sorcerers.

Edited August 16, 2010 by Etzel's Hips

[BEST TRYNDAMERE PLAYER]

Riddle me this. From chapter 5 onward, how much does 17 AS double? If the answer is "Quite a lot", then Ogma's thinking of a career change.

Everything that's not a dracoknight or that one sniper near the seize point in chapter 5, 6, 6x(well, 6x can be 1turned so doesn't matter.) But yes, myrmidon Ogma does have a chance to shine. And also if you choose Ogma instead of Draug for the prologue and he procs speed he can actually double 90% of Chapter 4 as a mercenary therefore making chapter 4 considerably easier.

Edited August 16, 2010 by Joey

[grandjackal]

Well, that's nice to know. So yeah, why are we ever bothering with Draug's chapter again? Ever?

[dondon151]

Because Draug's map can be cleared in 3 turns while Ogma's takes 4 turns.

[Colonel M]

Yes, I mean "as a Sniper".

Also for a configured team, it looks like you have ~11 deployment slots for a while. Not sure if this ever increases or decreases often. So we're possibly looking at a team with maybe 6-7 combat units, Marth himself, My Unit, Feena, and Malliesia. One of those also has to be trained to fight Gharnef too. So chances are you'll often field 7 Combat beauties then once in a while drop one for Julian or Rickard to thief stuff.

Draug also comes earlier in the game, but I guess Ogma is not terrible if you get him that Spd proc. Doubling Pirates would make the fiasco a lot easier in Chapter 4.

Edited August 16, 2010 by Colonel M

[grandjackal]

Because Draug's map can be cleared in 3 turns while Ogma's takes 4 turns.

Yet Ogma helps us 3 turn Cain's chapter. Not sure if Draug could manage something similar in Est's chapter, but I highly doubt he's pulling off any miracles in Cain's.

But then again, you smoke everyone on this sort of stuff, so go ahead and do your wizard stuff.

Yes, I mean "as a Sniper".

So Raiden's a pretty cool dude eh? I think he also has a support with Sirius, if that helps any.

Also for a configured team, it looks like you have ~11 deployment slots for a while. Not sure if this ever increases or decreases often. So we're possibly looking at a team with maybe 6-7 combat units, Marth himself, My Unit, Feena, and Malliesia. One of those also has to be trained to fight Gharnef too. So chances are you'll often field 7 Combat beauties then once in a while drop one for Julian or Rickard to thief stuff.

It does on smaller maps, or maps with people who join up. This can make some maps particularly annoying.

Draug also comes earlier in the game, but I guess Ogma is not terrible if you get him that Spd proc. Doubling Pirates would make the fiasco a lot easier in Chapter 4.

It's more what he does for you, which is nabbing us someone who does Draug's job with mobility and not doubled as often with more HP and Lck and Swords.

But again, I'm sort of late to the party so if anyone can whip up some turncount wizardry with Est...

[fatgamecat]

Because Draug's map can be cleared in 3 turns while Ogma's takes 4 turns.

I've cleared P6 vs Ogma in 3 turns with knight MU.

But again, I'm sort of late to the party so if anyone can whip up some turncount wizardry with Est...

The shortest I've managed P7 vs Est is 4 turns. Wasn't using Ogma but I doubt it would make a big difference.

Edited August 16, 2010 by mjemirzian

[Sploosh]

Tiny nitpick but how is Cain above Frey? They have similar bases and growths, but Frey comes earlier and has a Lance rank...

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Good question. Sword rank is kinda meh considering that Swordmaster gets C which is the only real important one, so... Okay, Cain below Frey, anyone?

[grandjackal]

Well, from my standpoint I see that statistically they are the exact same outside of Frey having 2 more luck compared to Cain's 1 HP and Def. I'd say the Luck wins out on that argument, since I doubt Cain's pulling any durability leads.

Cain wins out in growths...by 5% speed (yippee?) and 20% luck (something Frey was already beating him in, and will take Cain 10 levels just to tie). Otherwise, Frey wins 5% Str. That doesn't matter much at all, but it just comes to show that frey and Cain are practically the same guy.

Only difference is Sword rank and Lance rank. It just means they trade might when using certain weapons. Since a promotion and a slight bit of working, he can hit A rank as a swordmaster easy enough. It's not like he'll miss it if he switches back to Paladin. By then, he'll probably have armorslayers for armors anyways. Conversely, Cain could promote instantly and have Ridersbane free of charge. This can make him helpful on the bridge (since he can gain 1 level in prologue), having Horseslayer for the paladins and armorslayer for the generals. Frey can't immediately have both at once after promotion since Paladin doesn't give much of a boost in that rank.

On top of that, Cain's got Prologue 8. Frey's got a forced chapter 6 and 6x of which I doubt he would be used for much of anything considering how quick you can end that chapter.

I dunno, having Bane and Armorslayer on arrival with Prologue 8 might beat out Frey having essentially an extra chapter to train up.

[BEST TRYNDAMERE PLAYER]

I dunno, having Bane and Armorslayer on arrival with Prologue 8 might beat out Frey having essentially an extra chapter to train up.

You don't get your first Ridersbane until Chapter 14 from a thief, you don't get a Ridersbane from the chapter 2 boss like you did in the original version. Sure, there's armorslayer but you can also reclass somebody that has the 17+ speed needed to double the generals on the bridge chapter as an SM and get better results with the armorslayers.

Edited August 17, 2010 by Joey

[grandjackal]

You don't get your first Ridersbane until Chapter 14 from a thief, you don't get a Ridersbane from the chapter 2 boss like you did in the original version. Sure, there's armorslayer but you can also reclass somebody that has the 17+ speed needed to double the generals on the bridge chapter as an SM and get better results with the armorslayers.

*Promotes Cain, proceeds to get A Swords thanks to prologue building, has 17 speed*

And done. There, I saved you two levels of EXP form having to bother with Frey.

How much speed do the paladins have? If it's only 2 more, I could toss Cain the Scorpio orb.

[BEST TRYNDAMERE PLAYER]

*Promotes Cain, proceeds to get A Swords thanks to prologue building, has 17 speed*

Errrr, you can't reclass Cain on his joining chapter if you're hoping to make him an SM. As he doesn't join you during battle preparations.

How much speed do the paladins have?

15 IIRC.

[grandjackal]

Know what? I have my doubts about Draug being that high.

Reason I question it is because...His scope shrinks in chapter 3, and I think he's gonna have a hard time recovering from it.

What class are we assuming here? Pirate? Have fun getting OHKOd b 26 ATK dracos. Hunter? While at base he matches Warren's power with iron when Warren's using steel, but the problem is Warren's got steel so he's the better anti-air in the early draco-heavy maps. Same goes for Ryan, and Gordon is blowing him out of the water since he actually manages to win offense regardless, again in part due to the steel bow.

While it might be cool for chapter 2 where we want all the archers we can get(considering a strategy for chapter 2 in the last throws is to take on all the dracos at once, and can play a hand in a 10 turn clear), but for chapter 3?

He does not make crossing the bridge possible (or at least he's not making it any easier). The steel archers are the ones with that job.

How?

Paula's retreating left, Marth is heading for Bord's village (he'll grab the bridge key on his way back). She OHKOs the thief on her way, and after dealing with a va, takes down vulnery. On the move where she takes her next vulnery, there's a haven in the river where she can avoid the cavalry onslaught. However, this is where the draco where the Master Seal can attack her (thus why I had her use vulneries this time she was retreating.). We WANT her to lure this guy. Why? Because this signals to the 3 dracos that otherwise charge you when you try to cross the bridge to move out, and you can lure them to the spot where you start at. This is where the archers come into play. Ryan and Warren at base can deal up to 22 damage to these guys (14-13 HP remaining), Gordon can leave them with 12-11 HP. Considering one of your guys already weakened the first one on a counter and that Gordon can effectively cripple another, these 3 dracos are sitting ducks thanks to the steel archers. For reference, Draug would only be doing 16 damage (20-19 HP). Regardless, the last one should at LEAST be killable with Arran if you're in a pickle.

Now for the bridge. You pick it open and you need someone to draw in the javelin guy. I say Cav Catria. She has 10 Def and 24 HP, the ballista and the cav have 20 and 21 might respectively so she can take both (though the ballista will target Bord if he's in range, so that's a nice wall to pull heat off her). Now all that's left are 3 cavs, a ballista and lolMatthis. Considering you have the Rapier, Paula and a gaggle of archers left, this should not be an issue. After they're dead, have Arran fly at the ballista and stab it with silver, Katria finishing it off with her javelin (thanks to the added Str boost, it should only take 1 shot).

Now, there are a couple issues with my strategy. 1. The remaining dracos. You could do like the last ones and try to draw them out once you aggrivate the master seal guy and finish off the first 3. 2. The cavs who have been reinforcing from the north. While they might make you worry and perhaps delay your crossing of the bridge, it's better to fight them on your terms than trying to charge through them in cramped conditions. If you think it can be done, you can have Bord and Luke clog up the points at the bridge key village as your own chokepoint.

You are free to pick off the rest of the dracos at your leisure.

Fun Fact: Linda is OHKOd by everything so she can't put Rezire to any use. Though, having 22 magic might for the cavs is delicious, I wouldn't hold my breath on the dracos (the steel bow is stronger for that, which is hilarious. How the mighty have fallen), but a 22 might fuck you to non-resistance enemies is great. That, and it helps for taking down the boss in record time (Hammer+Aura=Profit).

[dondon151]

He does not make crossing the bridge possible (or at least he's not making it any easier). The steel archers are the ones with that job.

Uh, why do you want to cross the bridge? If you're recruiting Julian and Bord (and you likely are recruiting both), it's much faster to loop around the long way. 17 turns minimum (perfectly doable in that time frame with pirate Draug to help you out). It takes 19 turns minimum for Marth to go to Bord's village, backtrack to get the Bridge Key, unlock the bridge, recruit Julian, then backtrack to the gate.

[Don Draper]

I dunno, having Bane and Armorslayer on arrival with Prologue 8 might beat out Frey having essentially an extra chapter to train up.

Even if we don't count Chapter 6x, Frey still has Chapters 6 and 7 to train up which are two chapters. Not to mention Cain performs horribly on his join chapter, level or not.

11/0 Cain: 28.8 HP, 20.8 Atk (Steel Sword/Lance), 11.4 AS, 11.7 Def

Thieves: Have 31 Attack and 17 AS. They ORKO Cain. He shouldn't be touching these.

Paladins: Have 30 Attack and 15 AS. They ORKO Cain. He shouldn't be touching these either.

Generals: Have 32 Attack and 13 AS. They 2RKO Cain. They also have 50 HP and 15 Def. If he grabs an Armorslayer, he still only 3RKOs and takes a hefty forge to merely 2RKO.

Mages: 2RKO and he 2RKOs back

Sniper: Have 26 Attack and 15 AS. ORKO him unless he procs HP in that one levelup. They have 41 HP and 9 Def, so he does 12x1 damage for a 4RKO

Cavs: Have 40 HP and 12 AS. They 2RKO Cain. They have 40 HP and 7 Def, so he does 14x1 damage for a 3RKO.

Armors: Pretty much the same story as Generals tbh.

So he's pretty much deadweight here. Next chapter isn't helping either. Even if goes SM next chapter, 18 AS still only doubles Mages and Bishops. He's performing terribly against Dracos and Thieves.

*Promotes Cain, proceeds to get A Swords thanks to prologue building, has 17 speed*

Prologue building? I wouldn't consider a 10 turn chapter where Cain is used for about half of it sufficient enough for "prologue building".

Also, I'm sad to say that Colonel's idol (Roger) is going to have to drop due to his horrible starting performance. Lets take a look:

Base Roger: 26 HP, 19 Atk (Steel Lance), 7 AS, 14 Def

Thieves: Have 31 Attack and 17 AS. That gets dropped to 14x2 due to WTA, due its still an ORKO. He's 3RKOing if they proc 32 HP and 4 Def.

Paladins: Have 30 Attack and 15 AS. He's ORKO'd. They have 42 HP and 8 Def. Thats 11x1 for a 4RKO.

Generals: Have 32 Attack and 13 AS. He's ORKO'd. They have 50 HP and 15 Def. That's a 13RKO.

Mages: Have 25 Attack and 13 AS. He's ORKO'd. They have 25 HP and 3 Def. He 2RKO's.

Snipers: Have 26 Attack and 15 AS. He's actually 2RKO'd by these. On the other hand they have 41 HP and 9 Def for a 5RKO.

Cavs: Have 30 Attack and 12 AS. He's ORKO'd. They have 40 HP and 7 Def. He 4RKOs.

Armors: Have 29 Attack and 10 AS. He's 2RKO'd. They have 43 HP and 10 Def. 5RKO.

So he's only 2RKO'd by 2 types of enemies, and the rest ORKO him. He also 5RKOs those 2 enemies back. Absolutely dismal. I'll assume no levels for him in this chapter.

So he can at least class change to Cavalier for 26 HP, 18 Atk (Steel Lance), 13 AS, 10 Def. However, Chapter 9 Mages have 26 Attack so he's OHKO'd by those (lol). Then we have thieves which still double him (26 Atk/19 AS) and cleanly ORKO him despite WTD. Finally, there's Dracos which also double him (29 Atk, 20 AS) and ORKO him. Oh, and those Dracos? They have 43 HP and 11 Def so Roger 7RKOs ones that don't have Axes (8RKOs those).

So another dismal chapter for Roger. Before Grandjackal screams "Myrm!", lol E Swords.

Chapter 10 is more of the same. Even if he gained 2 levels, he still only has 27.2 HP and Mages/Bishops have 27 Attack. Mercs double him if he didn't proc speed and ORKO him (They have 29 Attack, reduced to 16x2). There's the sniper too, but even that ORKOs Roger as the Sniper has the same offensive statistics as the Myrm.

So Roger can't really catch a break here. Even if he did gain 2 levels, look which Free Silvers character shows up next:

Base Dice: 28 HP, 25 Atk (Steel Axe), 13 AS, 9 Def

10/0 Roger: 27.2 HP, 20.2 Atk (Steel Lance), 14.2 AS, 10.8 Def

I think Low Tier at the highest for Roger, he really is terrible at jointime.

[Colonel M]

Why does everyone think I idolize him? Yeesh. If he drops, he drops. Not a big deal.

As for what goes on, Roger is likely finishing off enemies, if anything. As for the Thieves, he probably should be finishing these off.

Meh, I'd rather actually try him out to see what happens, but due to no reclass merge I wasn't able to test him. I'm fine pitting him in Low for now; perhaps permanently.

[Don Draper]

Why does everyone think I idolize him? Yeesh. If he drops, he drops. Not a big deal.

:P

As for what goes on, Roger is likely finishing off enemies, if anything. As for the Thieves, he probably should be finishing these off.

The problem with finishing off enemies that ORKO you back is that you absolutely cannot afford to miss. With Roger's 6 Skl and 5 Lck, he has 88 Base Hit with Steel. Considering that enemies have between 13-17 avoid, its far too risky to have him finish off enemies considering the consequences if he misses.

[grandjackal]

Oh now what makes you think I'd say myrm for Roger? I'm not THAT bad, am I? I'm aware E swords comes with it's own set of problems.

As for Frey though, so what if he has a second chapter? It's the one with the forest of thieves. The fliers most likely will get to those thieves first, and so what's left? What's he gonna do, flail his dick at Astram's unit? Pretend the fire dragon doesn't kick his ass?

Which reminds me, Navarre. 16 base AS, 70% growth, surrounded by thieves. How many kills are we assuming he gets here?

[BEST TRYNDAMERE PLAYER]

Which reminds me, Navarre. 16 base AS, 70% growth, surrounded by thieves. How many kills are we assuming he gets here?

One thief kill, maybe two. Although in my playthrough Navarre didn't get to kill any of the thieves due to Sirius and Palla 1HKOing most of them and the ones he could have finished off that were weakened by DK!Arran or PK!Catria he wasn't in range for whereas another flier could, thus said flier taking the kill. I was on the throne by turn 6 although I spent another 2 turns getting the Physic staff meaning 8 total.

Edited August 17, 2010 by Joey

[Paperblade]

He 2HKOs Thieves and they 2HKO him back, and Feena is better off dancing for your flyers to run around like they own the place.

[Don Draper]

Still Paperblade, you had him around 9.74 at the end of Chapter 6 meaning one quick prep-arena match gets him to 10/0 and eligible for a promotion. Even without a promotion he does decently in the Bridge Chapter. At 10/0 and with an Armorslayer and +Str shard he can ORKO Armors. It'll take a +3 Might forge to ORKO Generals, but if you have one forged from a previous chapter it shouldn't be too much of a hassle to give it to him for the chapter.

[Paperblade]

True, although I am somewhat concerned about his late game stats with a level 10 promotion.