H3 (Lunatic) Tier List

[fatgamecat]

Draug is a great hunter.. not so hot as a fighter or cavalier. He's been invaluable for me in Ch 12-14 because he can take a hit from the fire/ice dragons and one round them in a counterattack with parthia as a sniper. And of course one shot fliers as well.

I really wish Rody had 500 free XP to catch up to Draug in level. :(

[Seven Deadly Sins]

@GJ

I'm fine with Jake being back in Free Silvers if we're gonna go that path. You've convinced me. Dice and Maris aren't though, and neither is Horace. At this point, all four of them have the same problem. You already have a shitload of usable characters. IF you're going to throw an Arms Scroll on some prepromote so you can get the EXP from the Flying Dragons, why not give it to Sirius, who has better growths than the whole group of them. Why not promote Luke or Draug or Cain or Frey or one of those guys and give it to them? You've got a lot of characters who are better off than Dice / Maris / Horace who not only make worse use of the same resources, but also lose in stats / growths / weapon ranks.

Here, I'm going to lay down a little bit of a ground rule.

We are not going to put stat boosters onto characters in Free Silvers in order to somehow boost them out of their "i suck" rut, because those boosters can be given to earlier-joining characters with better growths to perform the same task.

Any arguments against re-FSing Jake?

Edited August 28, 2010 by Seven Deadly Sins

[grandjackal]

I'd venture the reason being if screwage occured. Due to there being no safety units statistically in the lategame, any earlygame growth units that get screwed might have to end up getting dumped for one of these guys, and thus your reason for wanting to boost them up. While not fantastic, perfectly still capable of being filler units, though coming with a cost. This is better than let's say, dumbshits like Samuto.

That is the only reason I can think of. Basically they're filler units, nothing more.

However, I have to wonder something about endgame, namely what is needed. 27 AS at the least. All 3 of them could bag that in 5 levels. Enough durability to not get smited in one shot. I could say they easily could attain that. Considering it's impossible to have any sort of durability lead on anything aside form maybe the swordmasters, and that the only thing being doubled are Druids, how much do growths really mean outside of Str by endgame if you can just manage the bare essentials?

Edited August 28, 2010 by Etzel's Hips

[Mekkah]

from now on Grandjackal is banned from using the following words:

- meat(y)

- fuck

- mainland

- chip

- slowplay

[Seven Deadly Sins]

In an amusing twist... I never took Jake out of Free Silvers. Crisis averted.

[grandjackal]

Now that the Rainbow Potion exists thanks to the latest download, I think it should be discussed.

First off, 77 uses is GENEROUS. 3 uses a chapter, you'd run out at around chapter 20x, around the time you are hitting the caps for the Dragon's Altar and that thing should cease to matter anyways, since you can't break caps with it. That being said, let's see what effects we can get out of this bad boy.

-Arran and Draug at base can now double Hunters, Draug can ORKO with iron...So obviously, Arran can as well.

-Speaking of Arran, can 2RKO Dracos in chapter 2 if he's a draco thanks to this thing.

-Base Luke can double hunters as well, if he goes Myrm. In fact, base Myrm with this and he can double the bandits. I suppose if you got a speed screwed Luke, this would help him still be helpful until you dump his screwed ass for a safer bet.

-Unless Cecile can get 1 HP or Def out of Prologue, she's still screwed as she's still OHKOd by bandits even after a Rainbow dose. Low position is solidified.

-Chapter 4, you can give Marth the potion to hold onto, so when you rescue him, base Ogma and Sirius can double the enemies around them.

-Speaking of Sirius, Draco Sirius at base has 15 Def and 26 HP. Sirius, the moderator working here, informs me that dracos in chapter 5 have 25-27 ATK. He's 3RKOd for sure now. We have our first durability lead thanks to the potion.

-If enemies in 6x have 9 AS, Sammy can double now...though if you're THAT badly screwed for good help just for 6x, you've got other problems. But at least he can do that if you so choose.

-Matthis as a Myrm can now function as a mini-Ogma if he goes Myrm for chapter 4. In the least, he can help train guys near the start while Marth's running for the throne by doing this.

-Does 52 might OHKO flying dragons in the dragon valley? Which case, George doesn't have a problem killing with Silver now, so he's not dependent on Parthia anymore.

Sirius has confirmed that he can, though he might need the Gemini or Leo orb for safety sake since they can proc 45 HP and or 9 Def.

-Cain and Navarre's problems don't quite exist anymore.

-General Minerva now has 15 Speed, no longer doubled by fire and ice dragons. 41 HP and 21+2 Def to their 36 ATK. 4RKOd. Reason I'm not bringing up Draco is because 32 HP and 18 Def is still 2RKOd in comparison. If you can toss a stat booster or shards on top of that though, I'm sure she can muster up something as a draco. If the ever-godly Catria gets screwed though for General shenanigans, it's nice to know that base Minerva can take up the mantle. That is, unless we binned that idea by now. If flying dragons have 32 ATK, she's still 3RKOd by them despite being doubled.

Just a few things I'm finding, and while not all of them are gamechangers for these characters, it still shows that the Rainbow Potion is one hell of an elixer.

Edited September 1, 2010 by Etzel's Hips

[Anouleth]

How is it a 'nice little thing'? it's awesome.

Can it break caps, incidentally? nvm, just read in the info topic it doesn't

Edited September 1, 2010 by Anouleth

[BEST TRYNDAMERE PLAYER]

As nice as this all sounds I still don't think Rainbow Potion should be assumed on the tier list. Kinda like how Wi-Fi store was never assumed for SD or this game.

[grandjackal]

How is it a 'nice little thing'? it's awesome.

Indeed, I should edit that.

I just tried to find some basic facts, like 100% assured stuff, thanks in part ot Sirius dragging up stats for me. I could do more that would involve staking some orb use on top of it, but that's getting close to the sort of think you would expect out of my now apparently pattented Grandjackal Hype.

Would you blame me though? I mean, even with the Star Orb, that's basically +4 to EVERYTHING.

and ain't it a bitch that it's pattented by Interceptor and not me

As nice as this all sounds I still don't think Rainbow Potion should be assumed on the tier list. Kinda like how Wi-Fi store was never assumed for SD or this game.

Sirius in the Info topic just gave savestats for the lovely trinket, it's available to all, so I say it should be assumed.

Edited September 1, 2010 by Etzel's Hips

[_____]

Sirius in the Info topic just gave savestats for the lovely trinket, it's available to all, so I say it should be assumed.

And there are ways to get online using DS emulators, but that really doesn't change anything. If the Wi-Fi shop rule applies, the Rainbow Potion should be banned as well.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

And there are ways to get online using DS emulators, but that really doesn't change anything. If the Wi-Fi shop rule applies, the Rainbow Potion should be banned as well.

It's not the same. For the Wi-fi shop, you have to connect online every time you go there and the availability of the items depends on the day you go there so you don't have complete control of the items you'll get.

The Rainbow Potion, Maturity Drop and Bond Drop is downloaded into the "Download Content" menu and it stays there forever (or until you decide to "Clear All Data"), you don't ever have to connect to the internet once that's there and you can give one of each of those items to any save file that is in Chapter 1 or later. For this option, the only people that are screwed are pretty much those that own the cart but can't connect their DS to the internet... even then they could just go to starbucks or some other places with Wi-fi, access the download menu once and they get everything at once.

Edited September 1, 2010 by Sirius

[BEST TRYNDAMERE PLAYER]

Sirius in the Info topic just gave savestats for the lovely trinket, it's available to all, so I say it should be assumed.

Even so, I don't know. Sure this may help in efficiency but it just doesn't seem right for some reason, IMO.

Edited September 1, 2010 by Joey

[grandjackal]

Even so, I don't know. Sure this may help in efficiency but it just doesn't seem right for some reason, IMO.

I can only see good things coming from allowing this thing. If anything, it helps save this game from being ludicrously more luck-based than it needs to be (Wolf as a Swordmaster is no longer doubled by the myriad of 26 AS enemies in chapter 20. He still sucks, but at least he's usable for barebones utility in case you got screwed with someone, and you could patch up problems with the stat boosters coming in chapter 21), and it makes some characters go from crap to at least usable in sparce situations. It's not like it makes characters like Sirius broken, because he was already beating the snot out of everyone.

Getting it as stated is not as huge an issue as the oever-changing online shop which doesn't work on emulators (While that savestate for the Rainbow Potion does), and if it can only help making more units have utilic value, I hardly see the problem with allowing this item.

[Anouleth]

from now on Grandjackal is banned from using the following words:

- meat(y)

- fuck

- mainland

- chip

- slowplay

Also, 'stat boosters'.

[fatgamecat]

While choosing not to use available features that make the game easier (such as wifi) is a player defined challenge, the OP states "Also, Wifi is not assumed to be accessible."

[dondon151]

This is very much a short term impression, but I'm of the opinion that Cecile can rise by a whole lot. The only factor that held her back in the first place was being OHKO'd in chapter 1, but you have a Seraph Robe in the chapter 1 base that immediately gets her out of that rut. 3 HP and/or def procs and a Seraph robe lets her reclass to myrm and double enemy barbarians in chapter 1 for at least 10 x2 HP damage. She also starts doubling a lot faster than Luke and can use the Lady Sword.

Granted, I'm only at chapter 2, and I think Cecile is 1 def above average on my save, but the resources shouldn't really be a problem. She can grab a lot of thief kills in P-8 for EXP and not having to use Luke means that MU can take more kills earlier on.

[grandjackal]

Those thief kills could go to MU to make up for it. Problem here is that why would I use Cecile when I do in fact have Luke? Sure, I could give Cecile a Robe, but...I have Luke who doesn't need that. 2 speed levels and going myrm, he can do the same with what is most likely stronger ATK due to higher strength and could have C rank by then.

It's fine that she can be fixed by a Robe, the question is why would I bother? Come on man, this sounds like something I'd try to pull.

[nflchamp]

Those thief kills could go to MU to make up for it. Problem here is that why would I use Cecile when I do in fact have Luke? Sure, I could give Cecile a Robe, but...I have Luke who doesn't need that. 2 speed levels and going myrm, he can do the same with what is most likely stronger ATK due to higher strength and could have C rank by then.

It's fine that she can be fixed by a Robe, the question is why would I bother? Come on man, this sounds like something I'd try to pull.

Is there someplace else you really need a Robe to go? If not, I don't see what the big deal about using Cecile and having her rise is. Sure, she won't be as high as Luke because I could use him and get similar/better results, but it isn't as though there is no reason to use her.

[grandjackal]

Is there someplace else you really need a Robe to go? If not, I don't see what the big deal about using Cecile and having her rise is. Sure, she won't be as high as Luke because I could use him and get similar/better results, but it isn't as though there is no reason to use her.

Well yeah, namely that it's 2500 gold, of which could be additional might on a forge, or bringing someone a level or possibly 2 closer to promotion through the arena (Though early on, it could be less costly so it could possibly mean more levels lost due to lower levels in general allowing cheaper arena access).

So, there is a choice here.

-Possibly OHKO something with a forge, or at least make significantly stronger use out of something.

-Get a unit to the promoted classes earlier.

-Make Cecile usable.

Unless A. It can be shown that money is not that big an issue, or B. Cecile is better than a stronger forge or someone promoting earlier, I will have my reservations. I'm not certain on the money issue, but I would be willing to listen to the promoting early not being too big a deal since chances are there are probably more prme cantidates for the earlygame seals than they're basically no contest.

Now if it were free, I wouldn't mind at all. Problem is, we don't get a free one till chapter 7. By then, we got guys like Cain showing up who could pretty much take her place if they wanted to.

I suppose my problem is why bother when you only get something average out of the deal?

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Is there someplace else you really need a Robe to go? If not, I don't see what the big deal about using Cecile and having her rise is. Sure, she won't be as high as Luke because I could use him and get similar/better results, but it isn't as though there is no reason to use her.

Linde. Like Cecile, no longer dies in one hit to everything. However, unlike Cecile, Linde is now 2RKO/2HKOing everything (including Dracos, gimme one non-MU/Arran unit that can provide that kind of utility), has a definite future as a potential Gharnef slayer / promo healbot, and also providing ranged chip, which also provides a significant boon to all of your other units. If I was going to throw down 2500 of my gold for a Robe to slap on an OHKOed character, Linde would definitely be the choice. Usable Aura is just too good to pass up at that level.

[grandjackal]

Question being: How often is Linda actually going to get attacked at melee? 20 HP and 2 Def is well enough to survive the 21 ATK of Hunters, and otherwise she can just flat out avoid having to be attacked when she doesn't have to. All the robe does is allow her one chance to do a counter, and how often does that really happen? There's no way in hell she's leading a charge thanks to her fantastic 6 move. At best it would just help for the times you screw up and have to act smart with positioning rather than gung-ho offensive. While she certainly wouldn't mind it, I just don't think it's going to be put to that much use.

I can at least see how Cecile has to deal with it. She's forced to go melee, and due to her mobile capabilities will be leading hte charge so it's inevitable she takes hits. There is reasoning behind thoughts of Cecile getting a robe, because it's not like not having the robe suddenly forbids Linda from using Aura altogether.

Also,Seven? What do you think of the Rainbow Potion? Allowed or not? Cause if allowed, I'll just go ahead and make a seperate topic to list the potential that sucker has, since I'm sure that otherwise this topic would be flooded with discussion that could be handled better elsewhere.

[General Spoon]

GJ, why don't you make your own lunatic tier list where access to Wi-Fi is assumed?

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Question being: How often is Linda actually going to get attacked at melee? 20 HP and 2 Def is well enough to survive the 21 ATK of Hunters, and otherwise she can just flat out avoid having to be attacked when she doesn't have to. All the robe does is allow her one chance to do a counter, and how often does that really happen? There's no way in hell she's leading a charge thanks to her fantastic 6 move. At best it would just help for the times you screw up and have to act smart with positioning rather than gung-ho offensive. While she certainly wouldn't mind it, I just don't think it's going to be put to that much use.

I can at least see how Cecile has to deal with it. She's forced to go melee, and due to her mobile capabilities will be leading hte charge so it's inevitable she takes hits. There is reasoning behind thoughts of Cecile getting a robe, because it's not like not having the robe suddenly forbids Linda from using Aura altogether.

Ch. 3. She can take a hit from a draco on enemy phase (likely she will be targeted) and then proceed to KO on Player Phase, something I'm pretty sure not even Arran can do. Ch. 3x, she can do the same thing to any of the knights or archers. Ch. 5, she can do the same with the cavaliers near the starting position. Hell, she's liable to be close to the action in Ch4 just because she has max MOV across sand and you're spending time getting people into position. In my most recent PT, that robe has been the single best investment I could have made, and I can't imagine it getting significantly less effective as the game drags on (at least until enemies start getting retardtastic forges or stuff like that).

Also,Seven? What do you think of the Rainbow Potion? Allowed or not? Cause if allowed, I'll just go ahead and make a seperate topic to list the potential that sucker has, since I'm sure that otherwise this topic would be flooded with discussion that could be handled better elsewhere.

I'm not sure about it yet. Just hold your horses until I come to a decision.

[grandjackal]

Ch. 3. She can take a hit from a draco on enemy phase (likely she will be targeted) and then proceed to KO on Player Phase, something I'm pretty sure not even Arran can do. Ch. 3x, she can do the same thing to any of the knights or archers. Ch. 5, she can do the same with the cavaliers near the starting position. Hell, she's liable to be close to the action in Ch4 just because she has max MOV across sand and you're spending time getting people into position. In my most recent PT, that robe has been the single best investment I could have made, and I can't imagine it getting significantly less effective as the game drags on (at least until enemies start getting retardtastic forges or stuff like that).

Arran CAN do the same, but it requires +2 Str form Draco, which requires...well, an item waiting for approval let's say.

However, I still question the need to just have her counterkill enemies, if it's necessary to spend 2500 for that. Because for example, if I send someone else to take the counter and she still kills them with Aura the next turn, what's changed? I would be healing the other unit rather than Linda, and I would be up 2500 gold.

I'm not sure about it yet. Just hold your horses until I come to a decision.

Very well then, just curious. After all, wouldn't want to get too far into all that if you just flat out had it be forbidden.

[BEST TRYNDAMERE PLAYER]

I can only see good things coming from allowing this thing. If anything, it helps save this game from being ludicrously more luck-based than it needs to be (Wolf as a Swordmaster is no longer doubled by the myriad of 26 AS enemies in chapter 20. He still sucks, but at least he's usable for barebones utility in case you got screwed with someone, and you could patch up problems with the stat boosters coming in chapter 21), and it makes some characters go from crap to at least usable in sparce situations. It's not like it makes characters like Sirius broken, because he was already beating the snot out of everyone.

Getting it as stated is not as huge an issue as the oever-changing online shop which doesn't work on emulators (While that savestate for the Rainbow Potion does), and if it can only help making more units have utilic value, I hardly see the problem with allowing this item.

Well, think of it like this. Warp staff in Shadow Dragon H5 is available to everyone. Yet there is a tier list that doesn't assume warpskipping simply because it trivializes the game more than it should despite shaving a shitload of turns off. Rainbow Potion is one of these items that can make the game substantially easier. Besides, after clearing Lunatic once you do get access to prep-shops with statboosters and that already lightens the load by a lot and can make units who weren't useable without those statboosters into something great instead of having to have a 6-7man show consisting of Sirius, MU, Palla, Catria, Shiida, possibly Luke, and Feena featuring earlygame!Arran. Rainbow Potion, along with the prep-store statboosters can possibly trivialize the earlygame in a way.