I think I'm biased against prepromotes.

[Junkhead]

I think FE4-9 has pretty great pre-promotes. They are usually useful for a long time.

Some people just qualify them as "bad" due to their low Exp gain and because they usually turn out worst than most of your other characters.

[Sploosh]

Lol Louise and Isadora...

Hi I'm Isadora and I'm the worst FE7 Paladin.

I have low Con and I have "low strength and defense".

But I have 8 mov. I can use whatever weapon I want to increase avoid via WTA for +15 avoid. Then I can get up to +5 STR and +25 avoid from my supports.

Hi I'm Louise and I have "shitty base stats"

However, I double most of the units in the game, pretty much have a Silver Bow at my disposal, and have an automatic A support with a really good magic user.

Hi I'm FE7 Marcus. I have shitty 20/20 stats.

But do I dominate the whole game and kill most of the things I come across? lolya.

If you do the job, who cares about the stats? Pretty much the point of prepromotes.

Edited August 7, 2010 by Sploosh

[eclipse]

because it brings into question your standards. What makes a unit "good"? Flashing green numbers? Hardly. It's what they do for you. If you are comparing an 8 move mounted unit to a 6 move unit, Isadora clearly has a pretty nice advantage for helping you to clear maps faster or more easily or whatever reasonable standard you use to determine worth. There is no requirement to use something of every class or whatever, so having better Paladins does nothing to prevent you using Isadora. If Isadora has advantages over the foot units, then Isadora has advantages. Simple as that.

In my case, it's the ability to get into the middle of the fray, kill stuff, and not die in the process. Isadora's not that good at two of the three. Her movement won't matter if she ends up dead.

I'm pretty sure lots of people easily 5 star funds despite using killers and silvers more often than you. Silver card makes it much easier.

I'd love to test this, but I've lost my cartridge. Also, Silver Card is not available on all modes.

Everyone's playstyle is just fine for themselves. The question comes with how much worth does it have when discussing how good units are. If a player enjoys arena abusing until they get bored of it then their idea of better units will be vastly different than my idea. Their idea is also not particularly helpful for the discussion of which units are good. Similarly, you feeling compelled to use units of each type or others feeling compelled to raise units from low level to higher level if they get better 20/20 stats doesn't really indicate which units are actually more capable of assisting in an easier/faster/safer playthrough.

"Faster" is measurable. "Easier" and "safer" are not. Perhaps I find it easier to plunk a sturdy unit with good Strength and Speed in the middle of a pack of enemies, and watch in glee as he/she hacks them to pieces. Others may not agree with me. Maybe I feel safer if I turn all the reinforcements into daisy food. Maybe I don't like units who rely on NOT being RNG screwed to survive on a turn-by-turn basis.

Your team composition is a symptom of your preferences. Your "style of play" is different from those preferences. You'd probably do fine if you replaced a few of the units you use simply because of your preferences. You'd probably even find things easier. Style of play involves how well you are able to use the various units and how much each unit helps you get through the game. Your style would be like turtling or abusing or trying to get low turns or a compromise between turtling and low turns that focuses on safety first and speed second. Those types of differences from player to player have nothing to do with "I like to have a diverse team and I like to raise units from infancy" (some of that is your concern, some of that is the concern of a couple of the other anti-Isadora/Louise arguers).

I'd say it does. Unit choices affect how you'll run through a map. For example, if you're a fan of fliers (and you did a good job in raising them), you'll probably have a field day on the extra chapter before Cog of Destiny. Likewise, I don't think it's a very good idea to do a Paladin rush on the desert map (about the only time Paladins don't have a movement advantage).

Also, keep in mind that the promo item spent on the archers to make them snipers costs money. Your precious "ranks" are easier to achieve if you don't promote as many units. The money saved by selling a promo item (or not needing to buy one) is then transferred into the purchasing or using of more killers/silvers. Quite frankly, I can't imagine that you'd need so many killers/silvers to use Louise well in comparison to the archers that Louise would fall behind in the Funds Rank comparison. She might even win by a fair margin.

Lessee. . .according to what I see, the Iron Bow has 45 uses and is 540 Gold. The Silver Bow has 20 uses and is 1600 Gold. In order to get as many uses out of Silver Bows as an Iron Bow, I'd need two, making a total of 3200. The total difference for roughly the same amount of hits is 2660. Will Louise chew through eight Silver Bows if I play like I normally do? Definitely.

Killer Bows are significantly cheaper, but they don't hit as hard, which means Louise will have to rely on criticals to do real damage. I don't like relying on such chance, especially since Pent's affinity isn't a critical-happy one.

Hi I'm Isadora and I'm the worst FE7 Paladin.

I have low Con and I have "low strength and defense".

But I have 8 mov. I can use whatever weapon I want to increase avoid via WTA for +15 avoid. Then I can get up to +5 STR and +25 avoid from my supports.

Isadora's affinity is Dark, so she's getting +2 ATK, at most, and THAT'S assuming your full supports with her are among Lowen, Sain, Harken, and Renault. If you go the Attack route, AND you want the Evade, then knock Sain off of that list. That leaves Lowen (who is REALLY at the mercy of the RNG), Harken (assuming you went that route), and Renault (who comes so late it doesn't really matter).

WTA isn't as effective is Isadora is weighed down by her weapons (she loses Speed, her greatest asset). Unfortunately, that's two-thirds of the weapon triangle we're talking about (the only exception is if you got the DD disk or gave her Florina's Slim Lance. . .but then she won't be doing much damage to the enemy units).

Hi I'm Louise and I have "shitty base stats"

However, I double most of the units in the game, pretty much have a Silver Bow at my disposal, and have an automatic A support with a really good magic user.

Doubling doesn't matter if you're doing 10 damage total to the later enemies. I'd rather give that bow to Rath.

What if I decide not to use Pent? If Louise is dependent on another unit to be good, then that's a wonderful argument AGAINST her usefulness. Plus, if Pent dies, she leaves, which means you're out two units instead of one.

Hi I'm FE7 Marcus. I have shitty 20/20 stats.

But do I dominate the whole game and kill most of the things I come across? lolya.

Marcus has a much higher Axe rank than Isadora (which means that he can wield the Hammer and Poleaxe right off the bat, though why you'd do this is beyond me), better availability, isn't weighed down by three-fourths of the weapons he can wield, and has an affinity that suits him better than Isadora's one (too bad I don't care for his support partners). He's not my all-time favorite prepromote, but he's got a pretty strong case against Isadora!

[Parrhesia]

Lessee. . .according to what I see, the Iron Bow has 45 uses and is 540 Gold. The Silver Bow has 20 uses and is 1600 Gold. In order to get as many uses out of Silver Bows as an Iron Bow, I'd need two, making a total of 3200. The total difference for roughly the same amount of hits is 2660. Will Louise chew through eight Silver Bows if I play like I normally do? Definitely.

Mmm...as a 2-ranger, 160 attacks may slightly be overkill. If your playstyle is to have a big dude take the brunt of the entire enemy frontline, Louise isn't going to be that dude.

What if I decide not to use Pent? If Louise is dependent on another unit to be good, then that's a wonderful argument AGAINST her usefulness. Plus, if Pent dies, she leaves, which means you're out two units instead of one.

If Pent dies, Louise is the least of your issues.

Marcus has a much higher Axe rank than Isadora (which means that he can wield the Hammer and Poleaxe right off the bat, though why you'd do this is beyond me), better availability, isn't weighed down by three-fourths of the weapons he can wield, and has an affinity that suits him better than Isadora's one (too bad I don't care for his support partners). He's not my all-time favorite prepromote, but he's got a pretty strong case against Isadora!

Nobody's saying that Isa is anywhere near as useful as Marcus, it's just that they each have a role they fulfil...and Isadora's isn't to be a powerhouse.

Just my two (well, three) cents.

[eclipse]

Nah, I don't mind! The more, the merrier! :)

[dondon151]

Why should I? The other classes are there, so why should I limit myself to horses? Why does YOUR play style determine whether or not I can put my two cents in about prepromotes?

I'm not disparaging your play style, but like Narga said, you can hardly give a fair, objective judgment of prepromotes if your personal preferences discourage their use in the first place. If you like glowing green numbers, then prepromotes aren't for you. I'm surprised, however, that you'd use diversity to justify your stance when prepromotes, aside from being diverse units, promote diverse play styles as well.

Or, perhaps it's because I like the fact that Iron weapons are really light, have good accuracy, lots of uses, are really cheap, and I care about that Funds ranking at the end.

Did you conveniently omit the fact that iron weapons are also really weak? Do you like that about them as well? In fact, this sounds like my qualification for why I like killer weapons, except replace "really cheap" with "inexpensive" and add in somewhere "have good MT" and "tend to instantly kill stuff every 1 in 3 attacks or every 1 in 2 rounds of combat."

Not to toot my own horn, but you're pretty much arguing with the authority on prepromote usage. If you're not convinced by a textual argument, then click on any of the links in my signature and see for yourself that a vast majority of prepromotes are incredibly versatile and, while generally strictly inferior to growth units, are good enough that they can fill the same roles anyway.

Edited August 7, 2010 by dondon151

[Life]

I'd love to test this, but I've lost my cartridge. Also, Silver Card is not available on all modes.

Don't worry, I've already done this for ENM and HNM. While the Funds Ranking is the hardest to keep control of in those 2 modes, I spent like 80k on promotions anyway and still had about 10k to spend on pretty expensive weapons. Stuff like the Killer Bow in Dragon's Gate is great for the middle part of the game and you're not killing your Funds ranking.

"Faster" is measurable. "Easier" and "safer" are not. Perhaps I find it easier to plunk a sturdy unit with good Strength and Speed in the middle of a pack of enemies, and watch in glee as he/she hacks them to pieces. Others may not agree with me. Maybe I feel safer if I turn all the reinforcements into daisy food. Maybe I don't like units who rely on NOT being RNG screwed to survive on a turn-by-turn basis.

This doesn't really back up your argument of "most prepromotes are garbage". And last I checked, you don't have 2 units on a map at all time.

I'd say it does. Unit choices affect how you'll run through a map. For example, if you're a fan of fliers (and you did a good job in raising them), you'll probably have a field day on the extra chapter before Cog of Destiny. Likewise, I don't think it's a very good idea to do a Paladin rush on the desert map (about the only time Paladins don't have a movement advantage).

Except for the fact that Paladins and Fliers > most non-horsey units when you're trying to get somewhere quick. If you look at my S Rank runs, you'll see that I field a lot of horses and fliers (1 promoted flier per run at the very least) than other units unless there's no point of fielding them (when high movement doesn't make a huge difference, like Genesis or Unfulfilled Heart).

Lessee. . .according to what I see, the Iron Bow has 45 uses and is 540 Gold. The Silver Bow has 20 uses and is 1600 Gold. In order to get as many uses out of Silver Bows as an Iron Bow, I'd need two, making a total of 3200. The total difference for roughly the same amount of hits is 2660. Will Louise chew through eight Silver Bows if I play like I normally do? Definitely.

Killer Bows are significantly cheaper, but they don't hit as hard, which means Louise will have to rely on criticals to do real damage. I don't like relying on such chance, especially since Pent's affinity isn't a critical-happy one.

Here's the thing. You've completely forgotten about the Mt of these weapons. An Iron Bow has 6 Mt. A Silver Bow has 13 Mt. With 25 Atk before supports along with her 17 AS, Louise will ORKO most of the shit that attacks her. With 18 Atk, she probably won't. So I'd say that your numbers are quite off since Louise only need 2 uses of that awesome bow to make up for 3-4 of the crappy one. Not to mention that she's not exactly your only unit on the field. I can't even go through that many Silver Swords on 3 people and I used to play like that (still do to an extent).

Oh and about that critical stuff, Louise has 14 Crit without a Killer Bow when Pent is around. At base. With a Killer, she's rocking 44 Crit and gets 1 Crit every 5 levels. She's basically getting a critical hit every other shot. Oh and her Atk is sitting at 21. Yeah, it's as effective as a Silver Bow, maybe even more if she gets the critical on the first hit.

It's nice to see you so money conscience but you're overdoing it, even with a snail style strategy. Sometimes, more expensive weapons are better for a reason. Or does stuff like Hammers and Horseslayers not get used either because it's more expensive than an Iron Axe or Lance?

Doubling doesn't matter if you're doing 10 damage total to the later enemies. I'd rather give that bow to Rath.

I'm sorry... What enemies in FE7 have 20 Def? If you're going to bring up numbers, try getting them right for a change.

What if I decide not to use Pent? If Louise is dependent on another unit to be good, then that's a wonderful argument AGAINST her usefulness. Plus, if Pent dies, she leaves, which means you're out two units instead of one.

Why wouldn't you use Pent? Pent is that good from the moment he arrives.

Marcus has a much higher Axe rank than Isadora (which means that he can wield the Hammer and Poleaxe right off the bat, though why you'd do this is beyond me), better availability, isn't weighed down by three-fourths of the weapons he can wield, and has an affinity that suits him better than Isadora's one (too bad I don't care for his support partners). He's not my all-time favorite prepromote, but he's got a pretty strong case against Isadora!

Why can't you field both of them together?

[dondon151]

I'd love to test this, but I've lost my cartridge. Also, Silver Card is not available on all modes.

I find it rather ironic that an item that makes the game significantly easier is available only on the hard modes (just a random comment; I'm well aware that Aion does not have the Silver Card on the normal modes).

Lessee. . .according to what I see, the Iron Bow has 45 uses and is 540 Gold. The Silver Bow has 20 uses and is 1600 Gold. In order to get as many uses out of Silver Bows as an Iron Bow, I'd need two, making a total of 3200. The total difference for roughly the same amount of hits is 2660. Will Louise chew through eight Silver Bows if I play like I normally do? Definitely.

Killer Bows are significantly cheaper, but they don't hit as hard, which means Louise will have to rely on criticals to do real damage. I don't like relying on such chance, especially since Pent's affinity isn't a critical-happy one.

Ha, this is hilarious. First, you can't even buy Silver Bows until chapter 29. So Louise will be using her Silver Bow plus purchased Killer Bows in chapter 26. Second, after chapter 29 there are 5 maps left in the game, and one of them has only 2 free deployment slots (so there are really 4). Unless you're implying that you go through almost 2 full Silver Bows per map (18 turns minimum per map), you cannot possibly go through 8 full Silver Bows before the end of the game. Third, if you actually do spend 18 turns per map, then you most certainly aren't 5 starring tactics, so what's the point in 5 starring funds?

WTA isn't as effective is Isadora is weighed down by her weapons (she loses Speed, her greatest asset). Unfortunately, that's two-thirds of the weapon triangle we're talking about (the only exception is if you got the DD disk or gave her Florina's Slim Lance. . .but then she won't be doing much damage to the enemy units).

If you pit Lancereaver Isadora against a lance wielding enemy, she gets a cumulative +2 def, +24 avo (3 AS loss). Pick an Axereaver against an axe wielding enemy and you get +20 avo (5 AS loss). The important one here is the Lancereaver because Isadora loses more AS with axes against lance enemies.

You know what the funny thing about AS loss is? Enemy units in this game are so bad that Isadora doesn't care. She can't afford to lose AS against enemy mercs (--/5 Isadora doubles and ORKOs chapter 24 mercs with a Killing Edge on HHM), but against enemies such as chapter 24 WKs (who have 6-7 AS on HHM), Isadora has no problem grabbing even a Klller Axe and doubling all of them. And this is on HHM. Imagine how much better she would do on the normal modes that you generally play.

Marcus has a much higher Axe rank than Isadora (which means that he can wield the Hammer and Poleaxe right off the bat, though why you'd do this is beyond me), better availability, isn't weighed down by three-fourths of the weapons he can wield, and has an affinity that suits him better than Isadora's one (too bad I don't care for his support partners). He's not my all-time favorite prepromote, but he's got a pretty strong case against Isadora!

Uh, it's general consensus that Marcus is far better than Isadora (but this is mainly due to availability), so you're preaching to the choir here. Marcus has 5 less base spd than Isadora and 25% less growth; while Marcus is stuck at around 13 AS when Isadora joins, Isadora has the option of losing only 1 AS with Killing Edge (15 AS) or can use a Killer Lance and tie with Marcus (13 AS). It actually doesn't matter if Marcus isn't weighed down by weapons because Isadora is still faster than him even when weighed down (doesn't this blow your mind?).

Edited August 7, 2010 by dondon151

[Charpig]

Lol Louise and Isadora...

Hi I'm Isadora and I'm the worst FE7 Paladin.

I have low Con and I have "low strength and defense".

But I have 8 mov. I can use whatever weapon I want to increase avoid via WTA for +15 avoid. Then I can get up to +5 STR and +25 avoid from my supports.

Hi I'm Louise and I have "shitty base stats"

However, I double most of the units in the game, pretty much have a Silver Bow at my disposal, and have an automatic A support with a really good magic user.

Hi I'm FE7 Marcus. I have shitty 20/20 stats.

But do I dominate the whole game and kill most of the things I come across? lolya.

If you do the job, who cares about the stats? Pretty much the point of prepromotes.

Don't forget about Jaffar and Renault.

"Hi, I'm Jaffar, a level 13 Assassin and I can kill ANYTHING in one hit, sometimes with just an Iron Sword." Except for the Fire Dragon, but anything else is fair game.

"Hi, I'm Renault. I have 12 Magic as a Level 16 Bishop but it's possible for me to kill Nergal in one hit." I saw a video on YouTube of this, don't have the link though.

I normally don't like prepromotes, but yes, they can kick ass if used correctly. On the other hand, I like the satisfaction of raising up a weak unit like Erk or Florina to destroy entire maps.

[eclipse]

I'm not disparaging your play style, but like Narga said, you can hardly give a fair, objective judgment of prepromotes if your personal preferences discourage their use in the first place. If you like glowing green numbers, then prepromotes aren't for you. I'm surprised, however, that you'd use diversity to justify your stance when prepromotes, aside from being diverse units, promote diverse play styles as well.

I understand diversity, but I find it hard to convince myself that Isadora's useful beyond support filling, gimmicky runs, and rescuing really heavy units.

Did you conveniently omit the fact that iron weapons are also really weak? Do you like that about them as well? In fact, this sounds like my qualification for why I like killer weapons, except replace "really cheap" with "inexpensive" and add in somewhere "have good MT" and "tend to instantly kill stuff every 1 in 3 attacks or every 1 in 2 rounds of combat."

Why do you think I gravitate towards the stronger units?

The Killer weapons get used occasionally, with the biggest use being the Killing Edge (for somewhat obvious reasons).

Not to toot my own horn, but you're pretty much arguing with the authority on prepromote usage. If you're not convinced by a textual argument, then click on any of the links in my signature and see for yourself that a vast majority of prepromotes are incredibly versatile and, while generally strictly inferior to growth units, are good enough that they can fill the same roles anyway.

Every unit has its use, but Isadora's use is usually contrary to what I do, and Louise's usage is dependent on whether or not I feel like fielding Pent (or if I'm doing a themed run).

Don't worry, I've already done this for ENM and HNM. While the Funds Ranking is the hardest to keep control of in those 2 modes, I spent like 80k on promotions anyway and still had about 10k to spend on pretty expensive weapons. Stuff like the Killer Bow in Dragon's Gate is great for the middle part of the game and you're not killing your Funds ranking.

Thanks, but I'd like to test this myself. . .if I ever find that cartridge.

This doesn't really back up your argument of "most prepromotes are garbage". And last I checked, you don't have 2 units on a map at all time.

I think you're confusing me with someone else. I can think of a game where the prepromotes are worse (no thanks to the support system), but it sure isn't FE7!

Except for the fact that Paladins and Fliers > most non-horsey units when you're trying to get somewhere quick. If you look at my S Rank runs, you'll see that I field a lot of horses and fliers (1 promoted flier per run at the very least) than other units unless there's no point of fielding them (when high movement doesn't make a huge difference, like Genesis or Unfulfilled Heart).

Never did try for S on HHM, but I think I got it on the rest (as I said, no cartridge). I know I had at least one flier and 3 horses at most (2 Paladins and Rath), but the rest of my troops did just fine. If this was a draft tournament, the situation would be very different!

If you pit Lancereaver Isadora against a lance wielding enemy, she gets a cumulative +2 def, +24 avo (3 AS loss). Pick an Axereaver against an axe wielding enemy and you get +20 avo (5 AS loss). The important one here is the Lancereaver because Isadora loses more AS with axes against lance enemies.

You know what the funny thing about AS loss is? Enemy units in this game are so bad that Isadora doesn't care. She can't afford to lose AS against enemy mercs (--/5 Isadora doubles and ORKOs chapter 24 mercs with a Killing Edge on HHM), but against enemies such as chapter 24 WKs (who have 6-7 AS on HHM), Isadora has no problem grabbing even a Klller Axe and doubling all of them. And this is on HHM. Imagine how much better she would do on the normal modes that you generally play.

Who says my only mode is a normal one? Granted, I haven't played that much of HHM, but one of my memories of that mode is Isadora dying the minute I got her. The WTA is fine, as long as she doesn't get hit by enemies with different weapons (if she somehow gets the full weapon triangle against her on a single turn, she's in trouble).

Here's the thing. You've completely forgotten about the Mt of these weapons. An Iron Bow has 6 Mt. A Silver Bow has 13 Mt. With 25 Atk before supports along with her 17 AS, Louise will ORKO most of the shit that attacks her. With 18 Atk, she probably won't. So I'd say that your numbers are quite off since Louise only need 2 uses of that awesome bow to make up for 3-4 of the crappy one. Not to mention that she's not exactly your only unit on the field. I can't even go through that many Silver Swords on 3 people and I used to play like that (still do to an extent).

While I'd normally do a demonstration. . .no cartridge. Besides, why should she have to rely on higher-level weapons AND her husband to be effective?

Oh and about that critical stuff, Louise has 14 Crit without a Killer Bow when Pent is around. At base. With a Killer, she's rocking 44 Crit and gets 1 Crit every 5 levels. She's basically getting a critical hit every other shot. Oh and her Atk is sitting at 21. Yeah, it's as effective as a Silver Bow, maybe even more if she gets the critical on the first hit.

Since when was relying on criticals a good thing for any unit?

It's nice to see you so money conscience but you're overdoing it, even with a snail style strategy. Sometimes, more expensive weapons are better for a reason. Or does stuff like Hammers and Horseslayers not get used either because it's more expensive than an Iron Axe or Lance?

Hammers don't see much use because they're so damn heavy (and my Axe guys aren't exactly fast to begin with). Horseslayers depend on who I'm fielding, and what their Speed looks like (I think Oswin can wield it without AS loss, but he's not exactly fast).

I'm sorry... What enemies in FE7 have 20 Def? If you're going to bring up numbers, try getting them right for a change.

That's assuming she's got her Silver Bow, which IMHO, has much better usage elsewhere. If I equip her like I equip most people, she's sitting at a whopping 18 Attack (19 if Pent's in range). I know I saw some of the later enemies with 13-14 Defense.

Why wouldn't you use Pent? Pent is that good from the moment he arrives.

Maybe I'm using some combination of Erk/Priscilla/Serra/Lucius/Canas/possibly Nino. Maybe I really hate the fact that he can only go up to B with someone. Maybe I'm not too happy with his affinity. Maybe I'm doing a Goldilocks run. Regardless, there's plenty of reasons why I don't use units.

Why can't you field both of them together?

The good news is that they support each other. The bad news is that it doesn't help Isadora's offense in the least (Marcus likes it, because the extra Avoid helps with his low Speed). By the time Isadora comes around, I've probably found other ways of dealing with enemies.

That is an idea for a future run, if I ever find that cartridge of mine. Thanks!

Ha, this is hilarious. First, you can't even buy Silver Bows until chapter 29. So Louise will be using her Silver Bow plus purchased Killer Bows in chapter 26. Second, after chapter 29 there are 5 maps left in the game, and one of them has only 2 free deployment slots (so there are really 4). Unless you're implying that you go through almost 2 full Silver Bows per map (18 turns minimum per map), you cannot possibly go through 8 full Silver Bows before the end of the game. Third, if you actually do spend 18 turns per map, then you most certainly aren't 5 starring tactics, so what's the point in 5 starring funds?

Given that my general tactics are either to milk the reinforcements on Limstella's chapter, or be silly on Hector Mode, then going through that many uses isn't out of the question.

I go for stars on Funds because I can.

Uh, it's general consensus that Marcus is far better than Isadora (but this is mainly due to availability), so you're preaching to the choir here. Marcus has 5 less base spd than Isadora and 25% less growth; while Marcus is stuck at around 13 AS when Isadora joins, Isadora has the option of losing only 1 AS with Killing Edge (15 AS) or can use a Killer Lance and tie with Marcus (13 AS). It actually doesn't matter if Marcus isn't weighed down by weapons because Isadora is still faster than him even when weighed down (doesn't this blow your mind?).

I prefer Marcus' weapons levels, but that's a whole different can of worms. That was also in response to someone's (perhaps sarcastic?) evaluation of Marcus.

Isadora's main advantages, IIRC, are dodging, doubling, and rescuing (don't know if anyone here counts that as an advantage; I do, since she can rescue some really heavy characters). Weight does become an issue once she grabs something that's +5 heavier than her. . .which is most of the axes, and a Javelin. If she wants to maintain her Speed advantage, she has to stick with swords for the earlier parts of the game. You're already forced to use two sword units, and there's several more that can/are forced to be recruited that can use a sword. Why should I add someone who isn't going to do a lot of damage to the mix? (Guy, Matthew, Eliwood, and Lyn have the option of affinities that make up for their Strength, Kent and Lowen don't necessarily need it, and Raven and Sain's Strength will take care of itself. That leaves Legault, who isn't exactly a front-line fighter. Rath usually won't need help with his Strength).

I'd love to continue on, but Real Life calls. This is interesting, and I really want to find/procure another FE7!

[SuperTroll Maxim Lapierre]

Izzy and Louise may need more expensive weapons, but they don't need to burn a promotion item either. Unlike Life, I'm not so great with my funds, so I had to abstain from promoting more than my essential units (Sain, Florina, Eliwood, Hector, Raven) in order to achieve my S-ranks for the normal modes in FE7(231 and 266 turns for ENM and HNM, respectively). Luckily in the normal modes, the exp calculation is generous to high-leveled units.

Above statement applies only to Isadora, as I have never needed to use Louise outside of a battle or two.

Edited August 7, 2010 by Voltaire

[Callum]

Hmm. Yeah, I mostly avoid pre-promotes, though Sirius is one exception. Kick-ass~

Edited August 7, 2010 by Callum

[dondon151]

I understand diversity, but I find it hard to convince myself that Isadora's useful beyond support filling, gimmicky runs, and rescuing really heavy units.

If Isadora is useful enough on a "gimmicky" run (I am referring to a 0% growths run on HHM), then Isadora can be just as useful on a normal run.

Every unit has its use, but Isadora's use is usually contrary to what I do,

I'm glad you admit that your opinion of Isadora is subjective and not objective. Subjectivity is not really what we're gunning for here.

Who says my only mode is a normal one? Granted, I haven't played that much of HHM, but one of my memories of that mode is Isadora dying the minute I got her. The WTA is fine, as long as she doesn't get hit by enemies with different weapons (if she somehow gets the full weapon triangle against her on a single turn, she's in trouble).

Which is why I made the comparison on HHM, then extrapolated the result into ENM/HNM (because since Isadora doesn't get HHM bonuses, she obviously does better in ENM/HNM). Controlling enemy exposure to maximize WTA is simple enough - we already know that she can't rambo across the map, but having to make this minor accomodation is not bad when it's still extraordinarily effective.

Since when was relying on criticals a good thing for any unit?

Louise with Pent support and S bows has 49 crit with Killer Bow. That's a 74% chance to ORKO any unit that Louise normally 4HKOs and doubles.

That's assuming she's got her Silver Bow, which IMHO, has much better usage elsewhere. If I equip her like I equip most people, she's sitting at a whopping 18 Attack (19 if Pent's in range). I know I saw some of the later enemies with 13-14 Defense.

Look, here's the thing. We want to show the topic creator that prepromotes have their merits. You imposing your arbitrary outfitting restrictions on units to purposely gimp their potential isn't representative of how well they actually perform. This is like saying that LeBron James would be terrible at basketball if you broke his fingers. Well, no shit.

Isadora's main advantages, IIRC, are dodging, doubling, and rescuing (don't know if anyone here counts that as an advantage; I do, since she can rescue some really heavy characters).

This (rescuing) is not even an advantage. Isadora has 14 aid. Marcus has 14 aid. Kent, Sain have 14 aid.

[eclipse]

If Isadora is useful enough on a "gimmicky" run (I am referring to a 0% growths run on HHM), then Isadora can be just as useful on a normal run.

I think we have different ideas of gimmicky runs (I do really strange things), and I remember that in my prepromote-only run, Isadora made me facepalm a lot.

I'm glad you admit that your opinion of Isadora is subjective and not objective. Subjectivity is not really what we're gunning for here.

Yay, we agree! It would be really arrogant of me to think that my opinion of anything is better than anyone else's (except for certain types of music. . .but that's not the point).

Which is why I made the comparison on HHM, then extrapolated the result into ENM/HNM (because since Isadora doesn't get HHM bonuses, she obviously does better in ENM/HNM). Controlling enemy exposure to maximize WTA is simple enough - we already know that she can't rambo across the map, but having to make this minor accommodation is not bad when it's still extraordinarily effective.

The enemies aren't gonna dumb themselves down for Isadora in the harder modes (sadly), and they tend to hit harder. If I can figure out how to exploit the AI like I did with SD, I could probably use her more effectively.

Louise with Pent support and S bows has 49 crit with Killer Bow. That's a 74% chance to ORKO any unit that Louise normally 4HKOs and doubles.

First, she needs to get to S Bows (IIRC, that is NOT what she starts with). Second, I can't have Pent run across the map to do other stuff, which limits him more than I like. Lastly, if Louise absolutely needs to kill stuff, I don't want her chances to be that low (I'm comfortable with 90%+).

Look, here's the thing. We want to show the topic creator that prepromotes have their merits. You imposing your arbitrary outfitting restrictions on units to purposely gimp their potential isn't representative of how well they actually perform. This is like saying that LeBron James would be terrible at basketball if you broke his fingers. Well, no shit.

I'm willing to admit there's plenty of awesome prepromotes (especially in FE7). . .but Louise and Isadora aren't part of that set. In the grand scheme of prepromotes, they're on the "I-guess-you're-usable-but-there's-much-better-options" tier. If those two appeared in SD with the reclassing options, I'd probably have a much higher opinion of them!

(In the case of Midia and Isadora, I'd pick the latter in a heartbeat)

This (rescuing) is not even an advantage. Isadora has 14 aid. Marcus has 14 aid. Kent, Sain have 14 aid.

I know Florina could carry really heavy units as a Pegasus Knight, I don't remember if Eliwood could, and I could've sworn Isadora's lower CON meant that she could carry more, but I guess that's not the case. Goes to show how long it's been since I last played the game!

[Charpig]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but lower CON allows units to carry LESS. Aid is higher if you have more CON, at least for foot units. Isadora and Florina can carry heavy units because they are mounted, mounted units can carry heavier people thanks to their horses.

Either use the damn prepromotes or don't, it won't change my style of play, nor will it convince anyone else to use or not use Louise or Isadora. I've said my piece on prepromotes earlier in this topic, they have their uses just like any other unit.

[Parrhesia]

Mounted units carry more if they have lower Con. For males, it's 25 - Con. For females, it's only 20 - Con, likely to stop Peg Knights from being both good at ferrying and good at fighting.

[eclipse]

Mounted units carry more if they have lower Con. For males, it's 25 - Con. For females, it's only 20 - Con, likely to stop Peg Knights from being both good at ferrying and good at fighting.

That explains why Florina can bench press Oswin! Thanks!

[Life]

Never did try for S on HHM, but I think I got it on the rest (as I said, no cartridge). I know I had at least one flier and 3 horses at most (2 Paladins and Rath), but the rest of my troops did just fine. If this was a draft tournament, the situation would be very different!

Hi there, authority on Draft Tourneys speaking here. The point is that it ISN'T a Draft Tourney we're speaking about.

Who says my only mode is a normal one? Granted, I haven't played that much of HHM, but one of my memories of that mode is Isadora dying the minute I got her. The WTA is fine, as long as she doesn't get hit by enemies with different weapons (if she somehow gets the full weapon triangle against her on a single turn, she's in trouble).

Did you run her into Eubans the second that you could? Because that would explain why she was dying.

While I'd normally do a demonstration. . .no cartridge. Besides, why should she have to rely on higher-level weapons AND her husband to be effective?

Well, mostly because she can USE them while other units can't. At Unfulfilled Heart, Louise is your best Bow user with an A. Geitz is still at B and there's a very good chance that Rebecca, Wil and Rath all are unpromoted, meaning C Bows at highest.

Since when was relying on criticals a good thing for any unit?

If a unit goes from a 2RKO to a 1RKO, that's a good thing.

Hammers don't see much use because they're so damn heavy (and my Axe guys aren't exactly fast to begin with). Horseslayers depend on who I'm fielding, and what their Speed looks like (I think Oswin can wield it without AS loss, but he's not exactly fast).

Why are you taking me literally? I mentioned two RANDOM special weapons. Not two specific ones. The point is that your playstyle is inefficient because you want to stick Iron Weapons on all of your units. Note that inefficient =/= wrong.

That's assuming she's got her Silver Bow, which IMHO, has much better usage elsewhere. If I equip her like I equip most people, she's sitting at a whopping 18 Attack (19 if Pent's in range). I know I saw some of the later enemies with 13-14 Defense.

@ Bold: Like who? Geitz is still at B Bows. Rebecca, Wil and Rath usually aren't promoted even though I've promoted them in S Rank runs. Who else is going to use that Silver Bow? The convoy?

Dondon's already said it but you're purposely gimping your guys to and then trying to say that she sucks.

Maybe I'm using some combination of Erk/Priscilla/Serra/Lucius/Canas/possibly Nino. Maybe I really hate the fact that he can only go up to B with someone. Maybe I'm not too happy with his affinity. Maybe I'm doing a Goldilocks run. Regardless, there's plenty of reasons why I don't use units.

@ Bold: An efficient run shouldn't have him supporting ANYONE aside from Louise.

@ Italic: And his affinity matters because...? Supports? He comes with an auto A, for god sakes. When I'm doing a ranked run, it's almost impossible for me to get another A support with other units.

[dondon151]

Did you run her into Eubans the second that you could? Because that would explain why she was dying.

She probably ran her into a group of Swordreaver fighters with a Silver Sword equipped.

[Colonel M]

She probably ran her into a group of Swordreaver fighters with a Silver Sword equipped.

I think you mean Iron Sword. Silver Sword goes to one of the Sword unit's inventory to never be used...

Then again, IIRC, if she has a Lance equipped those Axereaver Wyverns do hurt. Of course the smart player would have the Sword equipped regardless, but I guess there could always be a case where she 2 ranges and no one is around.

Man, so much sandbagging on Isadora and Louise though. Did MaxKnight suddenly come to Fire Emblem or something? Then again he'd bash units that come earlier, but meh you get the point. I mean, who in their right mind would even -hint- at not using Pent? Did Erk suddenly get B Staves when I wasn't looking?

Edited August 8, 2010 by Colonel M

[Don Draper]

I'll just sum up this topic by answering Darros' question:

I never use units that are already promoted, because they don't have as good potential in my experience, am I being biased and wrong?

Yes. You are being biased and are very, very wrong.

[eclipse]

Hi there, authority on Draft Tourneys speaking here. The point is that it ISN'T a Draft Tourney we're speaking about.

Then there's really no reason to use a ton of horses. I know my Tactics rating doesn't suffer if I use non-mounted units!

(this doesn't apply to HHM, because I've never tried for a good Tactics rating on that mode, so I can't say if this will work)

Did you run her into Eubans the second that you could? Because that would explain why she was dying.

I had her blockade the weak point close to where she starts. If she refuses to dodge (which is exactly what happened to me), she will die. Quickly.

Well, mostly because she can USE them while other units can't. At Unfulfilled Heart, Louise is your best Bow user with an A. Geitz is still at B and there's a very good chance that Rebecca, Wil and Rath all are unpromoted, meaning C Bows at highest.

I'm pretty sure non-promoted units can hit A rank in their respective weapon classes (I know this pissed me off whenever I used Serra!) I don't remember what my weapon levels were like at that map.

If a unit goes from a 2RKO to a 1RKO, that's a good thing.

Unless it's a really high chance of ORKO (>90%), I'm a little hesitant to rely on it. This looks like it won't go anywhere.

Why are you taking me literally? I mentioned two RANDOM special weapons. Not two specific ones. The point is that your playstyle is inefficient because you want to stick Iron Weapons on all of your units. Note that inefficient =/= wrong.

Should I care about being efficient?

@ Bold: Like who? Geitz is still at B Bows. Rebecca, Wil and Rath usually aren't promoted even though I've promoted them in S Rank runs. Who else is going to use that Silver Bow? The convoy?

Who says I have to use something the minute it falls into my hands?

Dondon's already said it but you're purposely gimping your guys to and then trying to say that she sucks.

Now imagine if I didn't "gimp" everyone else. Louise and Isadora would STILL be outclassed.

@ Bold: An efficient run shouldn't have him supporting ANYONE aside from Louise.

Again, who says I care about being efficient? All I care about is getting through the game while having fun.

@ Italic: And his affinity matters because...? Supports? He comes with an auto A, for god sakes. When I'm doing a ranked run, it's almost impossible for me to get another A support with other units.

Let's pretend Pent was something a little more offensive (Fire or Wind). It would mean Louise gets a bigger boost in Strength (+1 to +3) and her Killer Bow auto-blick rate would go from 74% to 81-82%. The Strength boost means she's tied with an average Rebecca, and the critical boost means I wouldn't be so antsy about giving her the aforementioned Killer Bow. She'd then be doing an additional 6 damage every time the Killer Bow kicked in, which would work wonderfully in her favor.

Assuming she had time to B support someone with an equally offensive affinity (Hawkeye's the fastest, but she also has the option of Guy, Sain, or Rebecca), that boosts her damage output by 2 and critical rate by 10%, meaning that she'd go from "I have better options" tier to "Very usable" tier.

Also, how can you NOT get Eliwood and Hector's A support? I tend to get mine by accident.

Man, so much sandbagging on Isadora and Louise though. Did MaxKnight suddenly come to Fire Emblem or something? Then again he'd bash units that come earlier, but meh you get the point. I mean, who in their right mind would even -hint- at not using Pent? Did Erk suddenly get B Staves when I wasn't looking?

Unless MaxKnight is a female who realizes that Louise and Isadora are outclassed (but in the grand scheme of prepromotes, they're mediocre), no, I don't think I'm that person.

Why should I be forced to use Pent? One staff user is usually enough to keep my troops alive (Vulneraries do the rest), and that staff user is usually female. Also, I find that three mages (one for each type of magic) is more than enough. I know Pent is invaluable in HHM and a certain irritating later map, but I've played through that mode all of twice, so I can't give a really good judgment about it.

If you're bent on using Pent, then using Louise isn't out of the question. If you don't plan on using Pent, you've got better bow options.

Oh, and Ari. . .

[dondon151]

Now imagine if I didn't "gimp" everyone else. Louise and Isadora would STILL be outclassed.

Outclassed, yes, but still good (or in Louise's case, just usable) units in their own right. And most of the time you're not even gimping anyone else because all they really need are killers to be effective while Isadora could use the extra MT from silvers from time to time. If you gave those resources to already good units, you're just unnecessarily making them overpowered - is there a difference between a KO on the entire map, or overkill on the entire map? (Hint: the answer is no.)

Again, who says I care about being efficient? All I care about is getting through the game while having fun.

That's great for you. That's not the mindset under which we are discussing these units. Do you understand this? The topic creator asked if he was wrong in assuming that prepromotes "do not have as good potential," and you are not helping to answer his question when you never even give the units a chance in the first place.

Let's pretend Pent was something a little more offensive (Fire or Wind). It would mean Louise gets a bigger boost in Strength (+1 to +3) and her Killer Bow auto-blick rate would go from 74% to 81-82%. The Strength boost means she's tied with an average Rebecca, and the critical boost means I wouldn't be so antsy about giving her the aforementioned Killer Bow. She'd then be doing an additional 6 damage every time the Killer Bow kicked in, which would work wonderfully in her favor.

Those affinities are terrible for Pent. Pent doesn't need an atk boost at all and much rather prefers +3 def that Louise already offers. If you had to choose between an affinity that favors Pent and an affinity that favors Louise, Pent would always take priority.

If you're bent on using Pent, then using Louise isn't out of the question. If you don't plan on using Pent, you've got better bow options.

You have 1 better bow option. Maybe 2, if you count Rath (only for his horse, though), but Rebecca and Wil certainly aren't better.

[eclipse]

Outclassed, yes, but still good (or in Louise's case, just usable) units in their own right. And most of the time you're not even gimping anyone else because all they really need are killers to be effective while Isadora could use the extra MT from silvers from time to time. If you gave those resources to already good units, you're just unnecessarily making them overpowered - is there a difference between a KO on the entire map, or overkill on the entire map? (Hint: the answer is no.)

FE7 has plenty of good prepromotes. Just not those two. I can think of a time where my units (Isadora or otherwise) need the stronger weapons, but it's not for most of the game. If Unit A needs better weapons to be equal to the rest of my party, that's not a good unit, IMO.

If I can chew through maps at a good pace without burning my better weapons unnecessarily, that's not my idea of inefficient.

That's great for you. That's not the mindset under which we are discussing these units. Do you understand this? The topic creator asked if he was wrong in assuming that prepromotes "do not have as good potential," and you are not helping to answer his question when you never even give the units a chance in the first place.

There's plenty of good prepromotes with potential. Just NOT THOSE TWO!

Those affinities are terrible for Pent. Pent doesn't need an atk boost at all and much rather prefers +3 def that Louise already offers. If you had to choose between an affinity that favors Pent and an affinity that favors Louise, Pent would always take priority.

Why is Pent taking damage in the first place?

You have 1 better bow option. Maybe 2, if you count Rath (only for his horse, though), but Rebecca and Wil certainly aren't better.

Off the top of my head, I can think of Lyn, Dorcas, Bartre, and Geitz. Since we're talking about units that have a chance of dealing damage, I'll assume it's Geitz or Lyn (with supports).

I tend to alternate between Rath and Wil. Rebecca gets used only if she gains Strength (I tend to get Strength-screwed with her, and she's already low on Strength to begin with).

[dondon151]

If Unit A needs better weapons to be equal to the rest of my party, that's not a good unit, IMO.

If I can chew through maps at a good pace without burning my better weapons unnecessarily, that's not my idea of inefficient.

Welcome to Fire Emblem debating. Your conceptions regarding good units and efficiency need to be revised. If unit A needs resources to mimick unit B, but those resources are useless elsewhere, then that's perfectly fine and efficient.

There's plenty of good prepromotes with potential. Just NOT THOSE TWO!

I'm sorry, but yelling like a little child does not reinforce your point.

Why is Pent taking damage in the first place?

Have you seen how many enemies he ORKOs? Or do you not even give him basic Fire tomes because they're too expensive?