What Do You Follow?

[StinDuh]

Although I am a member of a Methodist(Christian) Church, I have become quite irritated with the way people in my church and people who also proclaim themselves as Christians act. My main problem is that Christians deny that Muhammad was an apostle to God(or Allah), yet many Muslims actually recognize Christ as a prophet or apostle, or even as the Messiah. Personally, I wish to become more familiar with the Islam Faith(mainly in the less studied "Sufi" movement, as this more pertains to the connection to God). Some things in Islam I don't agree with, but I want to attempt to find a connection to both Islam and Christianity in my life.

[Silvercrow]

Pretty firmly atheist here.

[Kanami]

I'm a Christian gone wrong... might of been a Catholic, have no clue XD All I remember is a big damn cross at the front of the building. Can't even go back to check since it got bulldozed years ago, (2002~3). And a small shopping mall stands in it's place. Father's a Christian, (not sure on what branch) and tried to get me into it at an early age. Went well for a few years before I attained the ability to think :P The place tried to make me stay* after I had an argument with them and tried to leave. So I'm rather hostile against Christianity as a whole. (Doesn't help that I went to _____ Baptist College and my hostility grew) In that sense I'm an atheist I suppose, though I find polytheism to be a rather interesting concept and have looked several religions up based on that. That said... still an atheist, otherwise an anti-christian

*Make me stay Involved: Whining at me that I was making a mistake constantly, "Coincidentally" bumping into me on my way to/from school, Calling my parents and trying to make them convince me, Coming to my school and actually calling me out for a meeting via PA system. And a few others I forget, a few girls tried to get me to "come back" one of them told me she'd be treated to lunch or something is she succeeded. Not sure on that one since it's hearsay, but "God" are they desperate. :/

[eclipse]

You could always point out that forcing you to be Christian is exactly what Jesus didn't do. :P

Sorry to hear that happened!

[lolDeath]

Conservative Jew.

If only this was a political topic I'd laugh so hard.

And I am a very strict Mormon.

wait did i say strict? I mean devout.

Edited October 18, 2010 by Death

[Fayt Zelpher]

I think that the easiest way to classify myself is by saying that I'm an apatheist.

As for which branch, I'd say that all of them apply to some extent.

[Kanami]

You could always point out that forcing you to be Christian is exactly what Jesus didn't do. :P

Sorry to hear that happened!

Logic doesn't work on religious folk, they wouldn't believe in old beardy if they were logical

Seriously though, I've never met a Christian who can't warp their religion to suit their own beliefs. Anything they can't usually results in "you're not interpreting it right."

[eclipse]

. . .with that attitude, you never will.

If you must be judgmental, judge people as people. Let religion be secondary. I'm sure they'd be obnoxious, even if they were Muslim/Buddhist/Pastafarians.

[Kanami]

Secondary meaning I can still judge them based on religion?

Either way, when did judging people come into the equation? Or am I dealing with another "Don't slander my religion" types? :/

Also, I'm not looking to meet Christians :/ So "never will" is fine by me.

[eclipse]

Secondary meaning I can still judge them based on religion?

Either way, when did judging people come into the equation? Or am I dealing with another "Don't slander my religion" types? :/

There are happy Muslims, devout Muslims, Muslims who are Colts fans, crazy Muslims, and everything in between. To lump them as "terrorist" due to their religion does most of them a great injustice. This holds true for all religions.

Also, I'm not looking to meet Christians :/ So "never will" is fine by me.

I don't know where in the world you are, but let's say your boss is Christian (a vocal one), and you can't afford to lose your job. Then what?

[Kanami]

There are happy Muslims, devout Muslims, Muslims who are Colts fans, crazy Muslims, and everything in between. To lump them as "terrorist" due to their religion does most of them a great injustice. This holds true for all religions.

Agreed... so what's your point?

I don't know where in the world you are, but let's say your boss is Christian (a vocal one), and you can't afford to lose your job. Then what?

Not looking to meet Christians and avoiding them are completely different.

As for an outspoken Christian boss, I'm not sure what you mean. If he's constantly trying to get me to attend Sunday sermons or something I'd probably start looking for another job :/

[eclipse]

Agreed... so what's your point?

Don't let your distaste for religion give a negative view on someone who is otherwise cool!

There's plenty of people who you'll meet that will probably have some sort of religion. I guess you wouldn't mind if it was someone that STFU about it (i.e. only said something if someone asked, and didn't try to convert the entire office). Many are like that. Then there's the ones that cheered when the gay marriage proposal was defeated, rooted for the most religious politician, and believes that America is God's country. Those types cause me to facepalm. . .and I'm guessing that's the type you don't like.

Not looking to meet Christians and avoiding them are completely different.

As for an outspoken Christian boss, I'm not sure what you mean. If he's constantly trying to get me to attend Sunday sermons or something I'd probably start looking for another job :/

Trust me. . .they exist. . .

With the economy in my area the way it is, good luck finding another one!

[Kanami]

Don't let your distaste for religion give a negative view on someone who is otherwise cool!

There's plenty of people who you'll meet that will probably have some sort of religion. I guess you wouldn't mind if it was someone that STFU about it (i.e. only said something if someone asked, and didn't try to convert the entire office). Many are like that. Then there's the ones that cheered when the gay marriage proposal was defeated, rooted for the most religious politician, and believes that America is God's country. Those types cause me to facepalm. . .and I'm guessing that's the type you don't like.

Uhhh okay? :/ I don't actually recall saying that Christians=bad. (Though I will say Christianity=bad for me). Interesting area though. I'm going to go with what you're telling me not to do. And I will judge a person on his religion, the same way I'll judge him/her based on their attire, hair cut and accent. Religion is a choice Remember that you damn conversionists! And while I'm not going to be going around ignoring people based on it. It does detract from my overall "grading" of an individual. While I won't condemn someone as an utter failure for being a Christian, I don't see any reason to detract the fact that they are Christian from them when looking at them. (See bottom for a snippet on a Conversionist)

Trust me. . .they exist. . .With the economy in my area the way it is, good luck finding another one!

Fortunately the economy has significantly recovered since the GFC where I live. Interestingly I can deal with a boss who hates me, maybe someone who'd constantly verbally abuse me. I can't however deal with "friendly" people that act friendly solely for the sake of getting me to do what they want.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In regards to Christianity, I can't deal with a religion which labels man as "evil" or sinful or whatever you want to call it. I'm not going to take responsibility if my mom kills another person. So I definitely won't accept "sin" from some naked people in a garden. Have I sinned myself? Yes, of course.

Does that make evil? Maybe? Does believing in old beardy, and that some skinny Jew died for me on the cross make me any more sin-free? I don't think so. <_<

The reason I can deal with Buddhism, Hinduism etc is because the core tenet isn't to believe in some holier then thou being, but on principles and actions. I acknowledge Christianity has them as well. However, I strongly believe that not going on a murderous rampage and raping 13 children is more important then "faith." Faith in a being which may or may not exist. (While there is no proof that God doesn't exist, there's no proof he does).

Redemption is not eradication, elimination, or destruction. Redemption is fixing what is broken down and restoring it back to its original purpose. When we understand the concept of redemption everything changes. Redemption is not only the conversion of man, but of society. God wants to convert our talents and gifts, so we can do culture in a way that glorifies Him. We are called, not to hide from society; we are called to be the salt of the earth, the light of the world. We are conversionist. God wants us doing more than saving the lost and getting them to Heaven, He wants us to be involved in culture. Salt engages and penetrates its environment. Salt converts everything it touches with flavor. While we are not of the world, Jesus put us right in the middle of the world. We are to use all the creativity and ability to create culture in a way that will lift up the name of Jesus.

Edited October 18, 2010 by Kanami

[eclipse]

Uhhh okay? :/ I don't actually recall saying that Christians=bad. (Though I will say Christianity=bad for me). Interesting area though. I'm going to go with what you're telling me not to do. And I will judge a person on his religion, the same way I'll judge him/her based on their attire, hair cut and accent. Religion is a choice Remember that you damn conversionists! And while I'm not going to be going around ignoring people based on it. It does detract from my overall "grading" of an individual. While I won't condemn someone as an utter failure for being a Christian, I don't see any reason to detract the fact that they are Christian from them when looking at them. (See bottom for a snippet on a Conversionist)

If that's your decision, then I will respect it. I hope it doesn't lead you astray.

Fortunately the economy has significantly recovered since the GFC where I live. Interestingly I can deal with a boss who hates me, maybe someone who'd constantly verbally abuse me. I can't however deal with "friendly" people that act friendly solely for the sake of getting me to do what they want.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In regards to Christianity, I can't deal with a religion which labels man as "evil" or sinful or whatever you want to call it. I'm not going to take responsibility if my mom kills another person. So I definitely won't accept "sin" from some naked people in a garden. Have I sinned myself? Yes, of course.

Does that make evil? Maybe? Does believing in old beardy, and that some skinny Jew died for me on the cross make me any more sin-free? I don't think so. <_<

The reason I can deal with Buddhism, Hinduism etc is because the core tenet isn't to believe in some holier then thou being, but on principles and actions. I acknowledge Christianity has them as well. However, I strongly believe that not going on a murderous rampage and raping 13 children is more important then "faith." Faith in a being which may or may not exist. (While there is no proof that God doesn't exist, there's no proof he does).

Glad to hear the economy on your end is picking up. Please pick up my economy!

I don't believe in changing people's minds through force. If that's your views on it, then we'll simply have to agree to disagree, and leave it at that. :)

[Meteor]

It does detract from my overall "grading" of an individual.

You say this, but...

I've never met a Christian who can't warp their religion to suit their own beliefs.

For that reason, you shouldn't assume too much about a person based on whatever religion they identify as. To me, all it really says is that:

1. his/her parent(s) are probably of the same religion

2. he/she believes in a higher power/afterlife

and I don't hold either against them because it's out of their control/unknowable. From there, they usually take one of three approaches to religion:

1. fundamentalist

2. ignorant

3. cherry-picking

In my opinion, 2 and 3 aren't very intellectual honest, and #1 is delusional. If you can definitely place the person into group 1, I say you are right to avoid him/her. However, the others are probably pretty decent people who don't want to think too hard, and like the idea of eternal life, and maybe some sort of punishment for people like Hitler. As long as we're on the same moral page, I won't hold it against them.

Basically, get to know people before you write them off for a silly label.

Edited October 18, 2010 by Meteor

[quanta]

The reason I can deal with Buddhism, Hinduism etc is because the core tenet isn't to believe in some holier then thou being, but on principles and actions.

Meh, that's not really true. Depends on the sect of Buddhism. Or the particular believer's choice of emphasis. You can read religious texts a lot of ways. Seriously, people since at least the Greeks have been aware and wrote about the issue of "Is something good because [the] god love it, or do they love it because it is good?" I read an article by a rabbi in the WSJ recently who divided various commandments into religious and moral categories of commandments. And as far as I know Zen Buddhism is the only thing that I think fits your description better than Christianity would overall. Hinduism though? What? different forms of Hinduism are all over the map. They aren't even the same religion in the sense that basically every form of Christianity is the same religion. In some of them the Socratic question I'm talking about might not even make sense because their beliefs are kind of similar to Spinoza's monism in the sense that everyone is part of the most important divinity.

And it's important to realize that there's probably a big gap between various forms of hindu theology and how hindus actually practice in terms of whether or not they value worshipping their god more or practicing a particular value system. This is definitely true for Christians, Muslims, etc. so I'd be shocked if it wasn't true for Hindus.

[Kanami]

Firstly I don't buy the idea that "religion" is out of an individuals control. It may apply for young children who just do what their parents say, but after a certain age. (teenage years) It's completely the individuals choice. I myself "chose" to leave the faith. It's highly unfair to blame the parents for a childs beliefs after an age Bloody Freud. Since while it certain factors in, it's not the sole contributor to the decision. He/She beleiving in a higher source, is completely the individuals choice. God has nothing to do with it, otherwise he would have made all of us devout followers. (Just saying before you argue on the divine level)

However, the others are probably pretty decent people who don't want to think too hard, and like the idea of eternal life, and maybe some sort of punishment for people like Hitler. As long as we're on the same moral page, I won't hold it against them.

Basically, get to know people before you write them off for a silly label.

.....?

I don't understand what you and eclipse are talking about. I have not called "Christians" silly anywhere. I admit I see them as "silly" when it comes to their religion. That doesn't mean that they have to be stupid in every single aspect of life.

As for the overall "grading" if you're on the bus on your way to school (morning) and a man who reeks of alcohol sits next to you, does that affect your view of the person? Most likely negatively. Becoming drunk is like religion in the sense that it's a choice. He might have a semi-valid reason as to why he's drunk, Maybe he just got dumped by his girlfriend and drank one night away? But you don't know that, all you see is a red eyed smelly drunk.

If you'd say you wouldn't think any more/less of him you're probably lying to yourself.

Furthermore, if the I find out the religion of an individual in the first 5 minutes of talking to them when it's not relevant to the discussion, I can nearly be certain it's going to lead to an attempt an conversion. Unless it's normal for people to introduce their religion where you live, "Hi I'm Bob, 29 year old Christian male"

I also lied, I will avoid Christians, when looking for share accommodation. I avoid advertisements which state things like the above. (Bob). If I find out later that they're Christian that's not a problem, but I really doubt I could live with someone who thinks that being Christian is a salespoint/important. Same applies for those places with 3 guys asking for "females only" they're probably really nice people, but I'll still avoid them. But now I'm going off topic. :/

[Suichimo]

Agnostic. I just don't care.

[Phoenix Wright]

Firstly I don't buy the idea that "religion" is out of an individuals control. It may apply for young children who just do what their parents say, but after a certain age. (teenage years) It's completely the individuals choice. I myself "chose" to leave the faith. It's highly unfair to blame the parents for a childs beliefs after an age Bloody Freud. Since while it certain factors in, it's not the sole contributor to the decision. He/She beleiving in a higher source, is completely the individuals choice. God has nothing to do with it, otherwise he would have made all of us devout followers. (Just saying before you argue on the divine level)

There are parents that kill their children if they are even getting the sense that their children are becoming more secular.

Duh, most aren't that extreme but the fact remains that people don't always have the choice. They can disbelieve for themselves, but that event is unlikely. Also, not believing in something and attempting to show interest is really hard to do. The kid will be punished in whatever way the parent sees fit.

As for the overall "grading" if you're on the bus on your way to school (morning) and a man who reeks of alcohol sits next to you, does that affect your view of the person? Most likely negatively. Becoming drunk is like religion in the sense that it's a choice. He might have a semi-valid reason as to why he's drunk, Maybe he just got dumped by his girlfriend and drank one night away? But you don't know that, all you see is a red eyed smelly drunk.

If you'd say you wouldn't think any more/less of him you're probably lying to yourself.

Not everyone thinks that way. Some go a little deeper than appearance, however I'd argue that you're still correct. A majority doesn't.

[Kanami]

There are parents that kill their children if they are even getting the sense that their children are becoming more secular.

Duh, most aren't that extreme but the fact remains that people don't always have the choice. They can disbelieve for themselves, but that event is unlikely. Also, not believing in something and attempting to show interest is really hard to do. The kid will be punished in whatever way the parent sees fit.

And people wonder why I don't like religion :/ Either way, that's a different issue completely. People have a "choice" it might come with negative reprecussions, but if you only believe in God because your parents will disown you otherwise, I'm not afraid to say the parents are horrible people. Don't care how "nice" they are. They're still scummy people.

Not everyone thinks that way. Some go a little deeper than appearance, however I'd argue that you're still correct. A majority doesn't.

I don't know how much "majority" is. But from what I've observed it applies to near everyone, if not everyone. This is referring to initial impressions, and the first thing that one judges another on is their appearance. You might go deeper, talk to them, get to know them, but first and foremostly it's appearance. After they've passed the "appearance" test, you make a choice on whether you'll bother talking to them and making a more accurate judgment. (Eg: You're not going to ask for directions from a group of guys playing with switchblades in a dark alleyway... I'd think at least anyway)

[Phoenix Wright]

I don't know how much "majority" is.

Yeah, I was ambiguous. My bad. Something more accurate would be "at least ninety-five percent."

This is referring to initial impressions, and the first thing that one judges another on is their appearance. You might go deeper, talk to them, get to know them, but first and foremostly it's appearance. After they've passed the "appearance" test, you make a choice on whether you'll bother talking to them and making a more accurate judgment. (Eg: You're not going to ask for directions from a group of guys playing with switchblades in a dark alleyway... I'd think at least anyway)

It depends on the situation. I find that a drunk, depressed man on the bus is a lot less suspicious than a group of people playing around with knives. Even going into a conversation with a drunk man on the bus urges me to believe that the guy didn't look all that bad to begin with. I suppose that's irrelevant though, considering I agree with you somewhat. Again, I'd say it depends on the situation the most (I wouldn't be afraid to talk to a group of people smoking marijuana if I actually needed to talk to someone).

Unless I saw the person doing something I disagree with strongly, I wouldn't think less of the person. Being drunk in public is pretty dumb, but personally it's nothing that warrants me to think s/he's a terrible person.

[Meteor]

As for the overall "grading" if you're on the bus on your way to school (morning) and a man who reeks of alcohol sits next to you, does that affect your view of the person?

The only knowledge I've gained from this experience so far is that he has been drinking alcohol recently enough and in a large enough quantity that I can smell it. I would not judge him solely on that fact, but on the actions he takes based on his condition.

Similarly I don't care if someone is religious until I know they oppose gay marriage, for example.

Regardless, I think I misunderstood your point based on the posts you've made since mine. Someone who introduces himself as a Christian obviously has an agenda. That, I can understand making some assumptions about.

[calculuswhiz]

I am a non-denominational Christian (well, kind-of a baptist, but don't go putting me together with those Westboro jerks).

Frankly, I'm sick of those trying to use "separation of church and state" to get us to shut up. The reason that's there is to keep the state out of religion.

I also hate the stupid stereotypes. I am not hateful of sinners (we're all sinners after all), I do not believe in forcing my religion (telling others about it is different), I am not perfect (that's why I believe, because I need forgiveness).

People also get the wrong idea. I believe salvation should come before rules and regulations. People think "Oh, he's so high and mighty telling me what to do," but I don't.

Though you can't prove either way on this, I feel there's more of a reason to be theistic than not. That's just me. Believe what you will. It's your choice. No argument that has been said is adequate.

For example:

Against omnipotence, some will say, "Can God create a stone so heavy, he can't lift it?" Then I will ask, ''Have you stopped beating your spouse?" Neither of these questions is valid.

Against omniscience, people will cite the Heisenberg uncertainty principle (impossible to determine the position and the momentum of a quantum). However, this "uncertainty" comes from our need to observe to know. We need to use an electromagnetic wave to hit the electron to get readings, but electrons move due to being hit by the wave. However, omniscience rules out having to see things to know things.

[Phoenix Wright]

Frankly, I'm sick of those trying to use "separation of church and state" to get us to shut up. The reason that's there is to keep the state out of religion.

I'd say it keeps religion from the state, not the state from religion. People don't worship outside of the state. People don't separate themselves during worship from the state, the state separates you from its politics.

It means the same thing basically, but you're implying that religion has the power to separate itself from things at will, which just isn't true.

People also get the wrong idea. I believe salvation should come before rules and regulations. People think "Oh, he's so high and mighty telling me what to do," but I don't.

An idea different from yours is incorrect? Interesting...

Though you can't prove either way on this, I feel there's more of a reason to be theistic than not. That's just me. Believe what you will. It's your choice. No argument that has been said is adequate.

For example:

I know the reason. It is because you are promised life after death, and we all know people don't really want to die. With a little bit of proof, not a single sane person would still disbelieve. It's too bad that we're stuck with having no proof, though.

Against omnipotence, some will say, "Can God create a stone so heavy, he can't lift it?" Then I will ask, ''Have you stopped beating your spouse?" Neither of these questions is valid.

I'm not sure there's any connection between the two questions. The first question is most definitely valid, as it questions how we should define God's power. What makes you think it's invalid?

The second question is dumb, yet still valid. I don't think anyone should ask if someone is still beating their spouse, I think they should get the spouse help. They're valid in different ways, which is why I'm not sure of your connection between the two...

Against omniscience, people will cite the Heisenberg uncertainty principle (impossible to determine the position and the momentum of a quantum). However, this "uncertainty" comes from our need to observe to know. We need to use an electromagnetic wave to hit the electron to get readings, but electrons move due to being hit by the wave. However, omniscience rules out having to see things to know things.

I've never seen anyone argue that ever.

As far as my understanding goes, this only applies to incredibly small particles, such as the orbit of an electron, or the atom itself. I think it's possible to know how fast a person is running, and where that person is at a certain point.

How does this even relate to the theory? When giving the term "omniscient" to something, I'm sure that no one really cares if that something knows your velocity and location exactly at the same time. It reminds me of the time when I tried to argue the existence of God via Newton's third law. It has no place.

[eclipse]

An idea different from yours is incorrect? Interesting...

Wah, don't take it out of context!

Here's a (different) example:

You see a man and a woman who are about the same age sitting across from each other in a restaurant. From their body language, it looks like they're not at a business meeting. Do you assume they're on a date?

Answering yes to the above question is the wrong idea.

Likewise, associating Christian with a long list of rules that they'll impose on others isn't always correct. Sounds like 存理者 has had encounters where stating his religion brought out all sorts of negative, wrong assumptions. I've been lucky enough to avoid those so far. . .