What Do You Follow?

[Meteor]

So what? There is no 'advantage' to being at the top of the food chain, as I said before. The most successful and wide-spread species are simple bacteria or plants, not intelligent mammals or carnivores who depend on vast herbivorous populations to stay alive.

There are no other species that have lives as luxurious as us (at least, not in the West). But who cares? Genes are not designed to make our lives luxurious or easy. And in comparison to the life of a tree, how can you even compare who has a better standard of living?

So why did it take so long? Why did it take hundreds of millions of years to develop what you think is the most important thing to a species? Evolution does not wait around. The reason it didn't evolve with dinosaurs or with trilobites is simply because they couldn't support complex nervous systems. They weren't warm-blooded. They didn't have the varied diet necessary.

That's exactly my point. You said 'Without our intelligence, we wouldn't even be at the top of the food chain. We wouldn't be near it.' But it is because of our intelligence that we have lost these other functions. So the actual fact is, that without intelligence, it's impossible to predict exactly how we would have evolved and where we would have ended up.

First of all, you're mixing up what Phoenix and I said, but I'll go ahead and respond because I mostly agree with him.

If there's no advantage of being at the top, I suppose you think there's no disadvantage from being at the bottom? I guess it depends on how you define success and advantage. Our species has the greatest control over our environment, which is what was considering advantageous.

People with luxury care. Just because other species don't understand doesn't mean negate its value to us.

Why shouldn't it take so long? Who has the authority to decide how long it should take? The whole point of evolution is adapting to environmental change. It's possible without intelligence, obviously, but once intelligence arose, you can see that it proliferated to pretty much every animal species. If it weren't evolutionarily advantageous, that wouldn't have happened.

I don't even understand how your point and his conflict here. If intelligence weren't important to our species, we wouldn't have lost other abilities to strengthen it. If we didn't have intelligence, things would have gone differently, sure.

Let's say I wouldn't be in front of my computer answering this, and leave it at that.

I am mistrustful by nature, and have very little faith in humanity.

Fair enough.

That doesn't really answer my question (what part religion plays in that).

[eclipse]

@eclipse: Are you truly saying that if you weren't religious, you would literally not be able to live as you do now?

Snarky answer: Do you think we'd be having this conversation if I wasn't religious? :P

Better answer: I think I'd be more closed-minded if I wasn't religious.

Fair enough.

That doesn't really answer my question (what part religion plays in that).

For the first part, that's all the answer you'll get out of me on these boards. If you want me to elaborate, you'll need to find me in RL and talk to me.

For the second part, my reason is exactly what I stated. Take it at face value, and temporarily drop the preconception that God is a man-made thing.

[Phoenix]

(Crap. I got lured out of Creative somehow.)

I don't have a title for my beliefs, just stances on different things. While I don't hate being called a christian, I do tend to get a bit annoyed by it since people will automatically assume things that aren't true about my beliefs. Take what you generally assume about a traditional christian, and then compare it to this stuff down here I guess.

Some differences

God: I believe there is a god. Two actually (more specifically I believe that Christ became a god during his resurrection).

Life and Death: I don't believe there is an afterlife per se. I believe that at death, people enter a state of total unconsciousness. Basically ceasing to exist. I view life as conscious existence and nothing more. I don't believe humans have ghosts/souls (though I love ghost jokes I'll admit). Not the ones typically portrayed.

Holidays: If it came from Catholic doctrine originally then I don't observe it. This isn't to be mean spirited. I just don't believe anything they've ever taught. So basically any well known christian holiday, I avoid.

Purpose: I don't believe people can actually go to Heaven or burn in hell since I believe both are different from how they've been interpreted, Heaven being inaccessible to mortals who I believe don't have a means of existing there, and hell being a grave in some places, and a place to burn dead bodies in others. As for why we're here, I believe it's to become gods ourselves ... eventually, and not necessarily in this lifetime or the next.

Conversion: Convert yourself. I'm trying to change myself, not others.

So you can probably see why I don't just up label myself a christian. There are some major areas where I splinter off completely which is fine by me. It's what I believe so I don't really feel bad about it. Anyway, those are some of the beliefs I follow. As for why I go with all of this, I believe it simply choice. The mechanics of my reasoning don't matter. All that matters to me is that it's what I've chosen.

[Meteor]

For the second part, my reason is exactly what I stated. Take it at face value, and temporarily drop the preconception that God is a man-made thing.

Sorry, I am really just not getting it. Face value, the way I'm interpreting it = "I am religious because I am I am mistrustful by nature, and have very little faith in humanity." I am completely failing to see the relationship. Are you actually trying to say one of these things?

I am religious because... it makes me more trustful.

I am religious because... it deepens my mistrust.

I am religious because... it gives me hope for humanity.

I am religious because... it gives me something else to put my faith in.

Regardless, my actual question is how religion does those things.

[Phoenix Wright]

Snarky answer: Do you think we'd be having this conversation if I wasn't religious? :P

I meant in terms of morals, not beliefs, but whatever. It's cool. I guess it's still technically a "snarky" remark. :P

Better answer: I think I'd be more closed-minded if I wasn't religious.

Meteor and I are basically saying the same things here, so this is the last time I'll say anything about this.

That doesn't make any sense. You're perfectly capable of remaining to be open-minded without religion and God. Atheists, agnostics, et cetera prove that.

Life and Death: I don't believe there is an afterlife per se. I believe that at death, people enter a state of total unconsciousness. Basically ceasing to exist. I view life as conscious existence and nothing more. I don't believe humans have ghosts/souls (though I love ghost jokes I'll admit). Not the ones typically portrayed.

So...death. You believe that people die. I'm not sure how that can be a unique belief.

Purpose: I don't believe people can actually go to Heaven or burn in hell since I believe both are different from how they've been interpreted, Heaven being inaccessible to mortals who I believe don't have a means of existing there, and hell being a grave in some places, and a place to burn dead bodies in others. As for why we're here, I believe it's to become gods ourselves ... eventually, and not necessarily in this lifetime or the next.

So you do believe in life after death?

So you can probably see why I don't just up label myself a christian. There are some major areas where I splinter off completely which is fine by me. It's what I believe so I don't really feel bad about it. Anyway, those are some of the beliefs I follow. As for why I go with all of this, I believe it simply choice. The mechanics of my reasoning don't matter. All that matters to me is that it's what I've chosen.

The mechanics of your own reasoning don't matter to yourself? How do you convince yourself of anything?

Edited October 30, 2010 by Phoenix Wright

[eclipse]

Sorry, I am really just not getting it. Face value, the way I'm interpreting it = "I am religious because I am I am mistrustful by nature, and have very little faith in humanity." I am completely failing to see the relationship. Are you actually trying to say one of these things?

I am religious because... it makes me more trustful.

I am religious because... it deepens my mistrust.

I am religious because... it gives me hope for humanity.

I am religious because... it gives me something else to put my faith in.

Regardless, my actual question is how religion does those things.

How about I am religious because I trust God more than I trust humans, including the people who don't quite see it my way in this thread?

Meteor and I are basically saying the same things here, so this is the last time I'll say anything about this.

That doesn't make any sense. You're perfectly capable of remaining to be open-minded without religion and God. Atheists, agnostics, et cetera prove that.

You won't understand this unless you drop your preconceptions about religion (among many other things), dispel all illusions about yourself, and open your mind.

If it's still too hard to grasp, post your chain of logic.

[Phoenix Wright]

How about I use myself as an example? When I used to believe in God with no serious doubts, I was a trustworthy and kind (IRL) person. Today, I am still trustworthy and kind. I still love my hobbies. I still care for people. Nothing has changed except the faith I once had in the supernatural.

You won't understand this unless you drop your preconceptions about religion (among many other things), dispel all illusions about yourself, and open your mind.

Don't assume my opinions are preconceptions; I don't form opinions on something I don't know about. I'm not sure what you're talking about on the other two statements.

Edited October 30, 2010 by Phoenix Wright

[Kanami]

How about I use myself as an example? When I used to believe in God with no serious doubts, I was a trustworthy and kind (IRL) person. Today, I am still trustworthy and kind. I still love my hobbies. I still care for people. Nothing has changed except the faith I once had in the supernatural.

I disagree, you were a prick back then, and you're a prick right now. So you're right in the sense that "nothing has changed" :P .... Nevermind I didn't know you then, and I don't know you very well now XD

@eclipse

Either way, you still haven't explained how "faith" connects to being a better/nicer/stronger/proper person. I mean, I know a Christian who shoplifts, with your ideology, I should then assume all Christians are bad and shoplift? That's stupid right? Well unfortunately it's no different to your connection of Christian = nicer person.

I've heard people say they can't live without their faith, but you'd be surprised what people can live without, I remember saying I can't live through summer without an airconditioner, and that was seven summers ago. I'm atill here today?

You've mentioned you don't have faith in mankind. And in all honesty it sounds like a prelude to "humans suck, we're all worthless maggots, woe be to all of us." But assuming God exists, I don't see how having faith in beardie changes anything. On the contrary I think things would get worse if people looked to God to solve problems, cause quite frankly God doesn't like intervening and solving our problems for us. Right?

[eclipse]

How about I use myself as an example? When I used to believe in God with no serious doubts, I was a trustworthy and kind (IRL) person. Today, I am still trustworthy and kind. I still love my hobbies. I still care for people. Nothing has changed except the faith I once had in the supernatural.

I can see what would've happened to me if I wasn't religious, and I don't like it.

Don't assume my opinions are preconceptions; I don't form opinions on something I don't know about. I'm not sure what you're talking about on the other two statements.

As long as you're unable to comprehend what I wrote previously, you won't understand why I'm more open-minded because of religion.

Either way, you still haven't explained how "faith" connects to being a better/nicer/stronger/proper person. I mean, I know a Christian who shoplifts, with your ideology, I should then assume all Christians are bad and shoplift? That's stupid right? Well unfortunately it's no different to your connection of Christian = nicer person.

I've heard people say they can't live without their faith, but you'd be surprised what people can live without, I remember saying I can't live through summer without an airconditioner, and that was seven summers ago. I'm atill here today?

You've already made up your mind regarding Christians and religion. It would be pointless to explain it to you as you are now.

Nope, you died that summer, and you are but a figment of my imagination. :P

You've mentioned you don't have faith in mankind. And in all honesty it sounds like a prelude to "humans suck, we're all worthless maggots, woe be to all of us." But assuming God exists, I don't see how having faith in beardie changes anything. On the contrary I think things would get worse if people looked to God to solve problems, cause quite frankly God doesn't like intervening and solving our problems for us. Right?

I prefer to put my faith in God over humanity, just as you'd prefer that AC in the summer.

One overused cliche involves comparing God to a parent. I apologize for using it for the umpteenth time. You're looking at the extreme of relying on God for everything. Do you rely on your parents for everything, including things like getting you dressed in the morning and wiping your bottom? Likewise, God is not there to constantly get us dressed in the morning.

[Kanami]

I can see what would've happened to me if I wasn't religious, and I don't like it.

What would happen to you that you don't like so much?

As long as you're unable to comprehend what I wrote previously, you won't understand why I'm more open-minded because of religion.

You've already made up your mind regarding Christians and religion. It would be pointless to explain it to you as you are now.

Getting rather tired of these "You wouldn't understand" comments, it's not up to you to determine what anyone including myself can understand, and what we can't. We'll determine for ourselves whether we understand your point or not. Telling us that it's pointless to discuss is rather rude. And certainly not something someone with an "open-mind" should be doing.

Nope, you died that summer, and you are but a figment of my imagination. :P

Kanami is pleased to inform you that she is not a figment of your imagination but a malignant tumour. You also have an appointment with death at 10 today.

I prefer to put my faith in God over humanity, just as you'd prefer that AC in the summer.

So God is essentially just a handy thing to be used when things get hard? A tool created for the convinience of mankind? Wow, we do agree on things :P

One overused cliche involves comparing God to a parent. I apologize for using it for the umpteenth time. You're looking at the extreme of relying on God for everything. Do you rely on your parents for everything, including things like getting you dressed in the morning and wiping your bottom? Likewise, God is not there to constantly get us dressed in the morning.

The thing is, God isn't there at all.

-If I oversleep, but still manage to catch the bus because the bus was running late, that's not God slowing down the bus, but "human" factors which have slowed things down.

-The reason I have something to eat today is because I worked my ass off yesterday working. Not because God is randomly sending down food for me.

-If I graduate College/Uni and get a good paying job, it's due to my effort and knowledge. My effort comes from me, not from God. My knowledge comes from my parents, teachers, friends and myself, not God.

So when does God act fatherly? A voyeur/stalker can watch over you if that's all God does.

Good going daddy, you've done absolutely nothing for me you over pretentious prick.

[eclipse]

What would happen to you that you don't like so much?

I'd be the one shouting and screaming when someone disagreed with me (almost like. . .nah. . .).

Getting rather tired of these "You wouldn't understand" comments, it's not up to you to determine what anyone including myself can understand, and what we can't. We'll determine for ourselves whether we understand your point or not. Telling us that it's pointless to discuss is rather rude. And certainly not something someone with an "open-mind" should be doing.

I'd have to explain it, and I think it would be a waste of time. Likewise, I could go into excruciating detail on why it's important to pick up the Ice Javelin and give it to Nietzsche on BF25 (as opposed to giving her the Cardinal Cloak a little later), but that would be a waste of your time.

Kanami is pleased to inform you that she is not a figment of your imagination but a malignant tumour. You also have an appointment with death at 10 today.

Haven't seen Death around today, and it's well past 10 here. I'm sticking with you being a figment of my imagination. Now go pick up an e-Amuse card for me, figment!

So God is essentially just a handy thing to be used when things get hard? A tool created for the convinience of mankind? Wow, we do agree on things :P

The thing is, God isn't there at all.

. . .and you wonder why I refuse to explain things to you. You've already made up your mind. Further explanation is pointless.

-If I oversleep, but still manage to catch the bus because the bus was running late, that's not God slowing down the bus, but "human" factors which have slowed things down.

That's an act of God, because buses do not run late in Japan. :D

-The reason I have something to eat today is because I worked my ass off yesterday working. Not because God is randomly sending down food for me.

-If I graduate College/Uni and get a good paying job, it's due to my effort and knowledge. My effort comes from me, not from God. My knowledge comes from my parents, teachers, friends and myself, not God.

You're wandering into "get me dressed in the morning" territory. God is not Helicopter Mom.

So when does God act fatherly? A voyeur/stalker can watch over you if that's all God does.

Good going daddy, you've done absolutely nothing for me you over pretentious prick.

The difference would involve me going into religious things, and you have indicated in the past that you don't like that. Since you aren't interested in faith, me explaining the importance of it would not be constructive.

[Zanarkin]

I don't see how God compares to a parent at all. If anything he compares more to a parent that abandons you. Really, he does nothing and i think people just give him too much credit for whatever they do. That athletic gift you have is due to your training. At least a parent is there and takes care of you, pays attention to you, and actually does stuff for you sometimes. The fact that you are an A student is not due to the fact God gave you that gift but because of your hard work.

[Phoenix Wright]

I can see what would've happened to me if I wasn't religious, and I don't like it.

I cannot fathom how something so far-fetched as religion could ever cause a personality difference, let alone a psychological difference. You changed yourself. Religion did not change you.

As long as you're unable to comprehend what I wrote previously, you won't understand why I'm more open-minded because of religion.

What would you say to those that try to believe, but can't?

[eclipse]

I cannot fathom how something so far-fetched as religion could ever cause a personality difference, let alone a psychological difference. You changed yourself. Religion did not change you.

While I could explain it, I don't want to share that much of my life on this board.

What would you say to those that try to believe, but can't?

Let go of all stereotypes and preconceptions. Do not seek to judge anyone, including yourself. Accept others for what they are, no matter how weird/crazy/unlike you they are.

Get that down, and we'll talk further.

Edited October 31, 2010 by eclipse

[Le Communard]

This thing we call “life”, it’s all false, it’s a lie. Look around you and what do you see? Death and despair, suffering, lies. Isn’t life supposed to be a great and affirmative thing? It’s because everything we think of as our “lives” are nothing but delusion: we are all already dead and this world is a purgatory where can do nothing but suffer and hope for deliverance. This false life is not but a shadowy mirror of our true existence in the past. Our only goal in this life, is to get out, and preferably as quickly as possible, to die a “true death” and move on with our existence. But we can only die the True Death by shuffling off that which tethers us to this false world: our possessions, our attachments, our passions. Of course, it doesn’t do any good to rush towards True Death: you’ll only end up coming back around again and repeating the cycle. That’s why I’ve devoted my false life to breaking the chains and will soon ascend to the True Death.

All this argument about “God” is silly—it promotes false attachment and ethereal passions, keeping all of you tethered to this plane of existence.

Edited October 31, 2010 by Le Communard

[Phoenix Wright]

Let go of all stereotypes and preconceptions. Do not seek to judge anyone, including yourself. Accept others for what they are, no matter how weird/crazy/unlike you they are.

Get that down, and we'll talk further.

I meant God, not religion.

[Guy Starwind]

What religion are we? Is that what this topic is about? If so then The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is mine.

I'm pretty zealous when it comes to churchy stuff.

Edited October 31, 2010 by Guy Starwind

[eclipse]

I meant God, not religion.

Still applies. It shifts focus off of the self.

[Phoenix Wright]

Still applies. It shifts focus off of the self.

I don't think it does at all. Believing in God doesn't rely on first letting go of your -- claimed to be-- preconceptions, stereotypes, or judgments of other people. Or anything for that matter. There are only two main issues with God:

-Why do I/do I not believe in "God"?

-Why should anyone believe in "God"?

I'd argue it shifts focus only onto the "self." No one can tell you why you believe in God, or why you don't. They can only tell you you should/should not.

[eclipse]

I don't think it does at all. Believing in God doesn't rely on first letting go of your -- claimed to be-- preconceptions, stereotypes, or judgments of other people. Or anything for that matter. There are only two main issues with God:

-Why do I/do I not believe in "God"?

-Why should anyone believe in "God"?

I'd argue it shifts focus only onto the "self." No one can tell you why you believe in God, or why you don't. They can only tell you you should/should not.

Think a deeper on what it means to let go of every stereotype and preconception you've built up (including the ones about yourself). If that's too hard, then try letting go of them. Is the overweight person across the street lazy because she's sporting a fine muffin top? Is the large black dude in baggy clothes a failure at life? Are the Hispanic guys speaking Spanish down the road illegal immigrants? Is the lady in the burqa a victim of her religion, or expressing her choice? If someone believes in God, does it mean that you must immediately question their beliefs, because you do not?

Maybe you'll understand why this is important. Maybe you won't/can't do this. Maybe I'll start cooking for my party.

[Phoenix Wright]

Think a deeper on what it means to let go of every stereotype and preconception you've built up (including the ones about yourself). If that's too hard, then try letting go of them. Is the overweight person across the street lazy because she's sporting a fine muffin top? Is the large black dude in baggy clothes a failure at life? Are the Hispanic guys speaking Spanish down the road illegal immigrants? Is the lady in the burqa a victim of her religion, or expressing her choice? If someone believes in God, does it mean that you must immediately question their beliefs, because you do not?

Maybe you'll understand why this is important. Maybe you won't/can't do this. Maybe I'll start cooking for my party.

If it helps my argument at all: no, my judgment on people is not formed that quickly at all.

Now, please tell me why this is important. I am failing to see why stereotypes are in relation to believing in God. Maybe you'll understand why this giant list of stereotypes is irrelevant to believing in a deity at all, let alone believing in God.

Only during a time of said discussion (Internet) or the person says something REALLY dumb (IRL and Internet).

Edited November 1, 2010 by Phoenix Wright

[eclipse]

If it helps my argument at all: no, my judgment on people is not formed that quickly at all.

Now, please tell me why this is important. I am failing to see why stereotypes are in relation to believing in God. Maybe you'll understand why this giant list of stereotypes is irrelevant to believing in a deity at all, let alone believing in God.

Only during a time of said discussion (Internet) or the person says something REALLY dumb (IRL and Internet).

I see you didn't even bother attempting that little exercise. It's not as pointless as you think.

Also, why not discuss things as freely in IRL as you do on the Internet?

[Meteor]

You said you were willing to discuss your religion, but when we ask you questions, you do nothing but dodge them (too complicated, too personal). That's fine, I just think it's odd that you said you were willing to talk about it at first because now it seems like you don't want to.

Anyway, this thread has taken up a lot of my time. I'll check back, but hopefully not as often.

[eclipse]

You said you were willing to discuss your religion, but when we ask you questions, you do nothing but dodge them (too complicated, too personal). That's fine, I just think it's odd that you said you were willing to talk about it at first because now it seems like you don't want to.

Anyway, this thread has taken up a lot of my time. I'll check back, but hopefully not as often.

It seems like I do not make sense, because we see things differently. That is fine, since you have your own views on religion, and going into great detail as to why I see things the way I do involves sharing too much of my past. The closest I can do to show you how I think is that little exercise I outlined.

As long as we don't see things equally, this discussion will go nowhere.

[Ken Zomg]

I believe in reincarnation because what it feels like to be dead breaks my mind.