FE Fundamentals and Possibilities for Radical Change

[Ingen]

I do feel like this has to happen at some point. Perhaps even soon. The series have been following the same pattern for a very long time and to me the future of the series has been appearing doubtful. Anyway, the purpose of this is to try to get people to rethink what is possible in a FE title.

As many of you know, pretty much all FEs have the same thing, only they look different. Think about character archetypes which is gameplay related as well as personality, similar story structure, little variation in the main characters with most being mostly blue and involving the use of the same weapons tye which is the sword although there is some variation in their personalities although there is little contrast between the mains colletively. The basics of the gameplay haven't changed for pretty much the entire series which includes the class system and weapons triangle. Changes have been limited to the characters in certain ways and, well... graphics. I can somewhat understand the stasis on the part of the story since most people will be hitting the start button to skip the the battles right away after every stage that's been cleared.

This brings us to the most important thing to consider. What do we really want in a FE game? Where gameplay is concerned, it's the weapons triangle, the influences between the classes and the abilities of the units us players use. These three points have a common thread, which is intricacy... That's really it. The weapons triangle for example is just one method to increase the intricacy of the gameplay so right now we can only guess what other methods could be out there or may be thought of to achieve intricacy to be used for planning your moves. It's a matter of picking the right ones and connecting them right.

There's another common trait that is inexcusable in the Fire Emblem series which is the Fire Emblem. The Fire Emblems have always been this object of legendary origins that possess some magical powers. This obviously implies that this series can only be a fantasy genre where the setting is concerned and most fantasy type settings tend to be ancient/midieval but not all. Much is possible in a fantasy genre. Again, it just has to be done right.

One thing that many of us FE players will say is how FE is set apart by the characters, more notably the playable characters. This worked very well in the titles that have Support Conversations which is one playabl character interacting with one another and forming a friendship which enables them to receive a boost to their battle performance whenever these friends are within a certain range, which adds to the intricacy of the gameplay. When you read the support conversations you get to know the characters better and usuall reveal their backstory which in some cases fit together with the story. But there are more to characters than just friendships and backstories. In my experience as a FE player I love to raise the characters not only to see what they are capable of, how they can be used but also something as simple as the nagging question of how does this character look like and fight when he/she promotes? As well as toying around with other variables like support boosts and finding methods to raise the characters that are harder to raise.

Difficulty settings seem to have become more important with the last titles. This is good to have because experienced players are still able to challenge themselves.

Characters, story, intricacy and difficulty as I have talked about have one thing in common to make them feel really good and that is variation. Variations in characters imply many different things: personality, personal strength that would not just make that character another unit of his/her class, ways to raise, different strategies depending on how you combine your team (there should be no one team that is "one size fits all") and appearances which makes you at least curious how their promoted forms would look like.

Variation in story can mean a large list of things... It could be variation title to title or variations withing the very setting itself. I have brought up the idea to have different cultures and ethnicities introduced a number of times already.

Intricacy works great when there are many and different variables. This is not an RTS and so the player is able to take time to consider the different variables before making a move. This is one of the things that makes FE what is is after all.

Difficulty of course should have many variations. Wide enough so that the newcomer won't get overwhelmed yet the highest difficulty setting high enough for the FE veteran to put his money where his mouth is.

Well, I hope I got some of you thinking... I'd also like to hear what you think right off the bat about this matter.

[Silent Mercenary]

In a series, there are always inevitable similairites between games, but I think the common plot is the most tiring now. It's always an alliance forms in the good kingdom to try and stop the bad empire from resurrecting (or taking the power of, in 9) a giant monster/being that the Great Heroes of Legend defeated with special weapons, and since they succeed, you have to find these weapons and defeat it again (and maybe again and again - 1/3/11/12). Now what do I propose for a change - how about a female revolution against the sexist cap makers leaded by the most affected Ilyana and Laura with Sanaki's royal aid (the cap makers could be anyone in-game, maybe the new Begnion senate with its tendency for corruption and Sanaki hate - while the caps could be a new decree limiting women's use of magic/training). (Also any continent will do, but in Tellius the cap is more prominent, while in others it's the base.) If it will go with that idea, it has the chance to go into dark waters that might spark controversy, but which can make the game more mature. Right now, I'm not in the right mind to think anything, so I'll just suggest that plot idea.

Things (fundamentals) that FE doesn't need to change since they characterize the series:

-Good-is-blue/Bad-is-red/Green-is-neutral/Yellow-is-allied (but how about there's another bad faction (purple or orange?) fighting against all, and sometimes you have to only fight one of the two/three while avoid getting the stubborn others killed in the process).

-Weapon Triangles

-Class abilities/differences

-Secondary character importance, and their ways of development since FE4 (the support system can improve - I like RD, but not the support-everyone system, since I don't think a character like Soren or Oliver would bond well with everyone, and that just leads to either short-generic-talk or too much text to unlock).

-Different difficulties (RD's change in some objectives between Easy/JP-Normal and Normal/Hard/JP-Maniac could go well with up-to-H5)

You mentioned intricacy, which made me think of puzzle-like chapters (the FE7 wait points thing could be used in a new way). And everybody critiques the newer FE's graphics, but mostly compares them to other-console games and Wii/DS games based on exploration (which need graphic emphasis). They fail to see the differences in each as making them unique; my only complaint being FE11's uncanny valley (it would better fit another game, like AW where units are considered pawns/bait), but the graphics in general are good. And the interesting thing about the Fire Emblem is that it was more of a plot-advancing device than a plot-defining item (FE9 the possible exception). I'm yawning- I'll leave it at that.

[eclipse]

Have you taken a gander at New Mystery? It looks like it combined a lot of things from the newer games. About the only things it's missing are unit rescues (besides the Rescue staff) and variable map win conditions.

As long as the story keeps me mildly entertained, and as long as I don't have to arbitrarily assign the majority of the cast a personality (a la me and my stupid SD runs), I'll be happy. The core gameplay is what makes me come back.

[Anouleth]

The fundamental aspect of FE is the wide variety of distinctive characters to choose from. People like to make choices and build an army in a way that they can call their own. This is why the game is popular.

[Rewjeo]

Have you taken a gander at New Mystery? It looks like it combined a lot of things from the newer games. About the only things it's missing are unit rescues (besides the Rescue staff) and variable map win conditions.

As long as the story keeps me mildly entertained, and as long as I don't have to arbitrarily assign the majority of the cast a personality (a la me and my stupid SD runs), I'll be happy. The core gameplay is what makes me come back.

Not 100% true. I think that at least two gaiden chapters require the boss to be killed (rather than seizing) and one of them has three potential bosses, and the one you have to defeat is random.

Anyways, I don't want "radical change" in FE. Small changes, even fairly large additions, as long as the game isn't radically changed. Fire Emblem has twelve games out, now. Thirteen if you count the BSFEs. You can't radically change a series after that many games when you've built up a fanbase. Especially a game like FE that doesn't have a huge fanbase to begin with.

[Charpig]

Here would be some radical changes:

1. Let all units fight unarmed, like the untransformed laguz in FE10

2. With mounted units, give both the rider and the mount separate HP bars (if you kill the rider but not the mount, the mount will wander aimlessly, if you kill the mount, the rider is forced to fight on foot)

3. Have wide area magic and team attacks (similar to the Triangle Attack but many more combinations of units could do it, enemies could as well)

But you know what? I think Fire Emblem is doing pretty darn well as it is. I'm sure the developers will make some radical innovations someday.

[eclipse]

Not 100% true. I think that at least two gaiden chapters require the boss to be killed (rather than seizing) and one of them has three potential bosses, and the one you have to defeat is random.

Anyways, I don't want "radical change" in FE. Small changes, even fairly large additions, as long as the game isn't radically changed. Fire Emblem has twelve games out, now. Thirteen if you count the BSFEs. You can't radically change a series after that many games when you've built up a fanbase. Especially a game like FE that doesn't have a huge fanbase to begin with.

That's more variety than SD, but nowhere near the variety that FE 7-11 had (seize, wait, kill everyone, protect someone, FE9:MGS, etc.)

[Anouleth]

That's more variety than SD, but nowhere near the variety that FE 7-11 had (seize, wait, kill everyone, protect someone, FE9:MGS, etc.)

The stealth chapter was annoying enough when it was optional. Can you imagine if you got a gameover if you were spotted?

[eclipse]

The stealth chapter was annoying enough when it was optional. Can you imagine if you got a gameover if you were spotted?

I'd rather beat the living daylights outta the guards because I can, so that would be really irritating.

I don't mind if the stealth's optional, so that's a favorite chapter of mine.

[Ingen]

I just got an idea for a different Growth concept as well as a totally new one where FE is concerned.

The way I see it, this Growth idea is like PoR's Fixed Mode taken to new heights. Instead of stats growing randomly, it is fixed but may appear random because of other variables. One example is if a character takes a lot of hits, it'll have added growth in HP and Defense. If a character levels up quickly by making kill after kill then added Skill growth. There is no growth for Constitution but if a character often uses heavy weapons then the Con stat may go up with time.

The concept is basically on the idea that one's body, as well as fighting ability, is shaped by the kind of battle experience that one goes through. "Natural Growths" and "Adaptive Points" are added up separately.

The second concept is the "fighting stance". I'll give one example with the Halberdier. The Default stance looks like the Halberdier stance from PoR. The Defence stance looks like that of RD with the effect of increasing Evasion but slightly reduces Speed and Accuracy. With the Doublehand stance, the Halberdier puts the shield away and uses the spear with both hands, increasing accuracy and speed but lowers Evasion. A unit has levels for each stance for the more that unit fights in a certain stance, the better it becomes in fighting in that stance. Stance Levels of enemies are only visible when they take that stance. Of course, this mechanism ay be combined with the one mentioned first.

But yeah, they're only concepts at the moment that still need working and perfecting...

[NinjaMonkey]

Here would be some radical changes:

1. Let all units fight unarmed, like the untransformed laguz in FE10

And do crappy (or most likely no) damage while they are at it (seriously, can anyone imagine having one of their units trying to punch a General to death?)

[Parrhesia]

And do crappy (or most likely no) damage while they are at it (seriously, can anyone imagine having one of their units trying to punch a General to death?)

I'd prefer knives for all and swords for thieves, personally (with no fancy options, just essentially a shiv). Gives archers a rather crap 1-range and priests an extremely bad 1-range. And it's crappy damage but there's a reason why it's there. I mean, personally I'd like to have archers be able to use hammers, but no other melee, but that's just me.

[Thor Odinson]

And do crappy (or most likely no) damage while they are at it (seriously, can anyone imagine having one of their units trying to punch a General to death?)

Well, not to a general, but if some 30 STR (I don't know Tellius caps, so I go by Tier 2 stuff in the GBA series) Axeman punches a squishy mage with LOLDEF in the face, it's still got to do a lot of damage.

At any rate, I like the punching idea. It could be done as ATK=STR or something.

Edited August 22, 2010 by Luminescent Blade

[Parrhesia]

Well, not to a general, but if some 30 STR (I don't know Tellius caps, so I go by Tier 2 stuff in the GBA series) Axeman punches a squishy mage with LOLDEF in the face, it's still got to do a lot of damage.

At any rate, I like the punching idea. It could be done as ATK=STR or something.

Yeah, but you still get sufficiently overlevelled myrms punching through sufficiently underlevelled armour. ...Or horses. Gods, try stopping cavalry with your fists.

Knives or bludgeons all the way.

Edited August 22, 2010 by Agent Dale Cooper

[Thor Odinson]

This is Japan, logic don't exist.

Just kidding. Though looking at Myrm crits, they like to jump around a lot... jump-kicking a cav in the face would be funny.

... it's the martial arts fanatic in me. I'll say that much.

...Actually, to make it more balanced, it could be STR/2...

Therefore if you're a really underleveled armor, your armor is probably made of straw and sucks.

Edited August 22, 2010 by Luminescent Blade

[Parrhesia]

This is Japan, logic don't exist.

Just kidding. Though looking at Myrm crits, they like to jump around a lot... jump-kicking a cav in the face would be funny.

... it's the martial arts fanatic in me. I'll say that much.

...Actually, to make it more balanced, it could be STR/2...

Therefore if you're a really underleveled armor, your armor is probably made of straw and sucks.

There is one unit type that looks like they use martial arts.

Specialist Magi from FE4.

Look at those arms.

But as hilarious as jump-kicking a cav in the face would be, a massive general taking three strong, heavy strides over to said cav and then...punching the horse in the nose...yeah, nah. A knife wouldn't be much better, but ... at least it's a weapon.

_{Although if your myrms and armours are unarmed in any case, you're doin' it wrong. Maybe Bow Armours or somethin', I dunno.}

Edited August 22, 2010 by Agent Dale Cooper

[Thor Odinson]

True. In the world of medieval-style battlefield, unarmed=dead.

Unless you are Seth

I got an amusing mental image from general punching the horse.

Issac is so similar to Asia I'd expect them to know how to fight unarmed like a boss...

Eh. To many martial arts novels. Bad LB.

[Parrhesia]

I got an amusing mental image from general punching the horse.

STOMP STOMP STOMP boink

[Thor Odinson]

Well, IS already made staff counters...

I get amused every time a priest counters my one-range guy with a staff crit and does 0 damage. I purposely choose people who can't ORKO priests so I can see it.

Too bad I don't have a Wii... so I can only see it on Youtube or go to my friend's house.

[bunny: spider bitten]

The way the fanbase and games have evolved, they really should be putting less emphasis on restricting players by classes and more emphasis on character individualization. While a game has yet to shove a character down your throat or, similarly, made a character unusable altogether, there's a reason the series peaked in popularity at FE4 and players lost interest per game after FE6.