Skills Tier List

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Also, he really doesn't need it in 1-9 or 1-E since he ORKOs everything and never dies. OHKOing doesn't matter. I think even in 3-6 he still ORKOs everything and never dies so who cares? If the character matters, he hurts Eclipse rather than helps it. If the character doesn't matter, Rend > Luna > Impale, thanks. And Eclipse below a bunch of other things since it doesn't activate as much.

Which is why bottom makes sense.

You have to hit with Cancel in order to prevent an attack, right? If the enemy attacks first, you'll take damage either way, with Vantage that's not necessarily the case as you could kill the enemy before he can attack. This is only true for EP of course, as Vanatge is useless on PP.

With either skill, damage negated has the same effect.

[Zkirsche]

Being able to ignore terrain and skills is more powerful than just being able to ignore skills.

Not when you ignore tides, no.

Parity is important for 4-E-2, against the Black Knight.

This is its only use if tides are cancelled (don't really know).

It's good for Cover Spirits and Cover Auras

Bye bye doubling.

and it even improves hit because it cancels authority stars (making it useful in 3-13 as well).

Can we even get parity in the chest?

With either skill, damage negated has the same effect.

Means nothing to the phase difference. One works on EP, one works on PP, more action occurs on EP, you can be healed by healers who generally have less to do on the PP. Which is better.

Edited September 12, 2010 by Zwiebel

[Kaoz]

With either skill, damage negated has the same effect.

Is that so? How often do you attack on PP? Once, twice when you're lucky (counting only first attacks, as Cancel is useless on the second attack). How often on EP? Probably a lot more. Also the healing stuff Kirsche mentioned.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

In regards to Cancel vs Vantage,

-First of all, two tier gap is off; they are close in effect

-Vantage preventing damage requires a enemy to be injured, which means that enemy was likely attacked on player phase, which means Cancel can play a role there

-Cancel's activation rate can be boosted by multiple attacks from braves/Astra/Adept

-More times than not, Vantage will not save getting attacked on enemy phase simply because enemies will not be in death range/can run away to heal

[Zkirsche]

-First of all, two tier gap is off; they are close in effect

Fair enough, so long as vantage > cancel.

-Vantage preventing damage requires a enemy to be injured, which means that enemy was likely attacked on player phase, which means Cancel can play a role there

Adept, crits, masteries etc can also imporve teh effectiveness of Vantage.

-Cancel's activation rate can be boosted by multiple attacks from braves/Astra/Adept

If the braves/astra/adept don't kill the enemy in the first place (extra regards to astra, the mastery skill).

-More times than not, Vantage will not save getting attacked on enemy phase simply because enemies will not be in death range/can run away to heal

And more times than not, cancel doesn't really help you period, aside from saving a heal which rhys/mist don't mind doing because they have nothing better to do/the unit is plenty durable anyway. Their use is merely situational and requires specific circumstances. But vantage has more effective situations due to more enemy exposure. This is what I think your missing. Cancel's effect can only occur once per turn, vantage can have much more so thanks to a greater enemy exposure on the EP.

[NinjaMonkey]

Shriek in Lower Mid? WHAT. THE. HELL!?

First of all only Hawks/Ravens can use it. Secondly, you need to get hit for it to activate (Do I need to mention that birds have high avoid?). Finally, if it does activate (and that is a big if), all it does is reduce the enemies luck to 0 for a turn (which is pretty much worthless).

So yeah, I'd say that it needs to drop (to at least Low, if not Bottom).

[Shadow Mir]

Shriek in Lower Mid? WHAT. THE. HELL!?

First of all only Hawks/Ravens can use it. Secondly, you need to get hit for it to activate (Do I need to mention that birds have high avoid?). Finally, if it does activate (and that is a big if), all it does is reduce the enemies luck to 0 for a turn (which is pretty much worthless).

So yeah, I'd say that it needs to drop (to at least Low, if not Bottom).

My sentiments exactly. Also, attacks that are most likely to hit birds are coming from bows or wind magic, and unless you're also using Nullify, they'll take massive damage.

Edited September 12, 2010 by Ein Lanford

[Soren37]

I...wasn't expecting that many replies in such a short time. Anyways, concerns will now be answered.

1. Critical bonuses separated by tiers.

This was done because while a +5 Crit bonus is nice, the difference is negligible as it doesn't really help to drastically increase your Crit. Crit +25 means you now have another 25% to critical, which is much nicer than a 5% bonus.

2. Vantage > Cancel

As Kaoz stated, Vantage can allow you to attack before the enemy, while you have to attack the enemy for Cancel to activate. While both use your SPD%, Vantage allows you to survive more and possibly kill a weakened enemy.

3. White Pool > Blood Tide

+5 SPD > +5 STR. I will make that amendment now. They will switch spots with each other.

4. Aether > Lethality

I misread and thought that Lethality's activation rate was SKL%. Aether wins due to the availability lead. Will make that amendment now. I'd say above Night Tide.

5. Resolve > Wildheart

Wildheart was placed where it was because Volug could destroy everything with it in Part 1. Debates have stated that Resolve is better as it increases unit durability. Also, Wildheart is sold ASAP. Resolve will go under Adept, while Wildheart will drop to below Counter.

6. Adept up.

Adept will rise to Top of High Tier (above Canto).

7. Masteries are too high/too low.

I have two different debates for this. I essentially placed the masteries based on which classes got them (not individual characters), and I realized that very few mages make it to Endgame due to bad SPD and durability. Marshalls got the boot due to bad MOV and SPD, and the cats aren't being used. A lot of the physical mastery skills were auto-High Tier for this. Right now though, I need a clear winner in the mastery skill debate.

8. Rend Up, or else Tear and Savage move up.

Rend was placed on the basis that the Cats aren't very good. Two of them are crap, while the other one needs a lot of help. However, I did say that I would not discriminate skills against certain characters, so I will move Rend up, but only to the top of Upper Mid. The cats are difficult to give it to.

9. Shove and Smite for Top Tier

Agreed. They will go beneath Galdrar. Galdrar > Smite > Shove.

10. Howl, Shriek, Maelstrom, and Quickclaw need to drop

I do agree. LCK% is crap, and no one laguz wants to be hit at two range. They will drop to Low/Bottom Tier.

11. Shriek > Mercy/Flourish.

It is. There is really no excuse for it. I'll move it above them, but I'm not sure exactly where.

12. Gamble > Crit +5/ Crit +10

Throw it on a high Hit unit. As I already stated, Crit +5 and Crit +10 do very little in regards to saving turns, unless the RNG loves you. Gamble doubles your Crit, so a Mia with a Killing Edge at level 20/10 with Ike A has 207 Hitand 58.5 Crit if I did it right. With Gamble, she'll have 103.5 Hit and 117 Crit. Sure her damage is poor (39 Atk), but she's guaranteed a critical, and I still think we're testing to see if it rolls Crit before Hit.

13. Corrosion in Middle

I don't see an argument. Where should it go? To me, Corrosion is just a flavour skill. It helps out, but it doesn't exactly save turns. The only time Corrosion is extremely useful is against a boss. Congratulations! He now no longer has a weapon! Most of the time, the generic enemies can die quickly, and Corrosion helps a bit.

14. Birdfoe found in 4-5

And that's all it's useful for. If you really want Calill or Bastian, give them a Wind Tome and that. I'll put it above Maelstrom in Lower Mid, as I can't really see it being useful for 1 chapter.

15. Daunt Down

Below Corona then.

16. Parity and Nihil down

The reason that they're so high is because they allow you to take out Ashera faster than just having everyone get hit by Aurora. This would mean you know need a whole bunch of healers and a lot more turns to do it. Parity will drop below Red Pool, but Nihil stays. Unless someone can show me a 4-E-5 run where no Nihil's were used.

17. Paragon down to High

Fair enough. I've read the arguments, and it does help give you some amazing units for some chapters.

18. Glare to Bottom of Bottom

And what about Guard? Glare may not have any use, but Guard doesn't do a thing, or it activates so irregular that it does nothing. Glare will be moved to Bottom, above Fortune.

19. Parity below Red Pool. White Pool > Red Tide.

Already stated.

EDIT

20. Where's Shade and Saviour?

Woops! Shade goes in Lower Mid, above Counter, and Saviour goes into High Tier, below Canto.

Edited September 12, 2010 by Soren37

[Anouleth]

Not when you ignore tides, no.

There are always going to be a limited number of Tides, and there are always going to be people left out, or people who don't even need them to double. If Tides covered the entire map, you'd have a point, but sadly only a handful of characters can actually make full use of them.

This is its only use if tides are cancelled (don't really know).

Not going to mention the 4-E-1 Generals, then?

Bye bye doubling.

Give it to a person who doubles naturally? For example, Giffca can 1-round Sephiran with Parity, since he has 36AS to Sephiran's 32, and he ignores the ridiculous +15 terrain bonus. Tibarn, Naesala (or any Royal you got to 40 speed) or a Trueblade can use it to effect against Cover Auras for an easy extra 10 damage, as well as superior accuracy. This is better than just being able to ignore Aurora.

Can we even get parity in the chest?

Well, I didn't manage to get it (I went for Vantage instead), but it's immaterial. Even if it's difficult to get and the cost outweighs the benefits, it's still a good skill. You can be sure that if Nihil was in that chest instead, nobody would give it a second glance.

Edited September 12, 2010 by Mr. Know-it-all-Anouleth

[Krad]

12. Gamble > Crit +5/ Crit +10

Throw it on a high Hit unit. As I already stated, Crit +5 and Crit +10 do very little in regards to saving turns, unless the RNG loves you. Gamble doubles your Crit, so a Mia with a Killing Edge at level 20/10 with Ike A has 207 Hitand 58.5 Crit if I did it right. With Gamble, she'll have 103.5 Hit and 117 Crit. Sure her damage is poor (39 Atk), but she's guaranteed a critical, and I still think we're testing to see if it rolls Crit before Hit.

If I remember correctly (at least is seems to work this way in PoR), the hit gets cut before factoring in enemy avoid. Enemies hover around 70-80 avoid during Part 4 if I'm not mistaken. Which means Mia is pulling 30-20 displayed. A high chance of doing no damage at all. Also Hit has always been calculated before Crit.

13. Corrosion in Middle

I don't see an argument. Where should it go? To me, Corrosion is just a flavour skill. It helps out, but it doesn't exactly save turns. The only time Corrosion is extremely useful is against a boss. Congratulations! He now no longer has a weapon! Most of the time, the generic enemies can die quickly, and Corrosion helps a bit.

That's why it should go down. Low or Bottom.

[Soren37]

Edits will be made. Gamble will drop to top of Bottom, and Corrosion will drop to Low, above Miracle.

[dondon151]

Well, I didn't manage to get it (I went for Vantage instead), but it's immaterial. Even if it's difficult to get and the cost outweighs the benefits, it's still a good skill. You can be sure that if Nihil was in that chest instead, nobody would give it a second glance.

I got it in 6 turns, no problem, which means that it's possible.

[Tables]

1. Critical bonuses separated by tiers.

This was done because while a +5 Crit bonus is nice, the difference is negligible as it doesn't really help to drastically increase your Crit. Crit +25 means you now have another 25% to critical, which is much nicer than a 5% bonus.

12. Gamble > Crit +5/ Crit +10

Throw it on a high Hit unit. As I already stated, Crit +5 and Crit +10 do very little in regards to saving turns, unless the RNG loves you. Gamble doubles your Crit, so a Mia with a Killing Edge at level 20/10 with Ike A has 207 Hitand 58.5 Crit if I did it right. With Gamble, she'll have 103.5 Hit and 117 Crit. Sure her damage is poor (39 Atk), but she's guaranteed a critical, and I still think we're testing to see if it rolls Crit before Hit.

16. Parity and Nihil down

The reason that they're so high is because they allow you to take out Ashera faster than just having everyone get hit by Aurora. This would mean you know need a whole bunch of healers and a lot more turns to do it. Parity will drop below Red Pool, but Nihil stays. Unless someone can show me a 4-E-5 run where no Nihil's were used.

1: While we're on the subject, +20 crit needs to go above +25 crit (lol). Because there's a unit likely to use that +20 crit and none using the +25. I'm less certain on the +15 crit and +10 and +5 but I suspect they see more use, too and in fact might even have to go above others as well.

12: Crit doesn't roll first. Also that's a very bespoke situation, and when you consider enemy avoid around that point is about 75, you're really looking at 65% displayed hit (about 76% true) and about 95% critical. Compare to 100% hit and 48% critical. Ignoring other skills, the first is only marginally better, is only available on player phases and requires the user to be in very specific circumstances (they needs to have high skill and a crit boosting weapon and a hit support).

TL;DR: Gamble is almost worthless. I'd take the reliable hit and good crit chance over the reasonable chance of missing there.

Edit: Looks like Krad got there first. I'm about 90% certain that it's your battle hit that's halved, just like it's your battle critical that's doubled.

16: So you're saying Nihil saving one, or two turns top means it can't drop out of top? Right. I'm pretty sure all high/top skills can save more turns than that.

Edited September 12, 2010 by I Eat Tables

[dondon151]

I think Canto and Celerity should be at least top tier as well.

[Tables]

Having given the critical skills a quick look:

Critical +5: Myrmidons, Halberdiers, Reavers. I can't see any Reavers being used in an efficient run but Eddie will see a little use and maybe Danved and Nephenee. A little boost but not much. Maybe move up a little, not sure

Critical +10: Swordmasters, Snipers, Lancers. The first two see a fair bit of use, especially Swordmasters. This seems a pretty useful skill considering that. I'd say it might rise considering it's very likely to cause a few criticals but unlikely to be key to saving turns.

Critical +15: Marksmen. Meh. It should probably drop, it's not actually going to do much.

Critical +20: Trueblades. As I said, it sees some use in the form of Mia. It should be pretty close to Astra in terms of usefulness - activation rate is pretty similar (20% each really) and the effect isn't much worse (3x damage compared to 5x damage but other skills can activate on top)

Critical +25: Assassins. This won't see much use. I'd drop it below critical +10 (yarly) simply for that reason. Locked to one unit who exists for one two turn chapter. Yeah. Even if that chapter is somehow played slowly (er...) this still won't save much time in it.

So Critical +20 > Critical +10 > Critical +25 > Critical +15 > Critical +5.

Oh, and regarding Nihil, I don't think it needs to drop much. Middle of High.

Pass needs to rise. A lot. That thing alone can probably save a turn on almost every chapter it's in. Like, I'm thinking it's almost Gladrar level in terms of cutting turns but I might be exaggerating. Saviour with it needs to rise a little, it certainly saves more turns than, say, Dragonfoe, which at most saves 1 (4-E-3 can be cleared in 1 turn with the right team, and even without Dragonfoe at worst it should be done in about 5 turns and probably can be cleared in 1 without it anyway). That needs to drop with Nihil a fair bit. Finally, I question whether Blood Pool and White Tide should drop based on this logic as well. They save a lot of time while they exist, but don't exist for long.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Adept, crits, masteries etc can also imporve teh effectiveness of Vantage.

It still only has a constant proc rate.

If the braves/astra/adept don't kill the enemy in the first place (extra regards to astra, the mastery skill).

Astra may fall short with generals/dragons, but braves/adept will very likely not KO the enemy.

And more times than not, cancel doesn't really help you period, aside from saving a heal which rhys/mist don't mind doing because they have nothing better to do/the unit is plenty durable anyway. Their use is merely situational and requires specific circumstances. But vantage has more effective situations due to more enemy exposure. This is what I think your missing. Cancel's effect can only occur once per turn, vantage can have much more so thanks to a greater enemy exposure on the EP.

You're not relying on Vantage to save a unit from death, so protection against enemy exposure makes little difference. Besides, Cancel is usually stacked with Vantage, which forms the basis of the defensive gain. I would probably say neither skill is reliable enough to make a difference for turn count, but they should be closer together.

EDIT: Also, address Eclipse to bottom.

Edited September 13, 2010 by WeaponsofMassConstruction

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

16. Parity and Nihil down

The reason that they're so high is because they allow you to take out Ashera faster than just having everyone get hit by Aurora. This would mean you know need a whole bunch of healers and a lot more turns to do it. Parity will drop below Red Pool, but Nihil stays. Unless someone can show me a 4-E-5 run where no Nihil's were used.

The existence of the Ashera Staff/Fortify does away with Aurora damage easily.

[El Rey León]

Birdfoe should at least be High Tier since you get it just before the chapter that needs it and it's very useful. But it's only useful for that chapter. But Dragonfoe is only useful for one chapter and that's Top Tier. But Dragons are harder enemies than birds so I guess I can understand that.

[Soren37]

The existence of the Ashera Staff/Fortify does away with Aurora damage easily.

And you have 3 uses on the Ashera Staff, 7 uses with two Hammernes, plus Ashera has some lovely AoE attacks. Nihil means that you can charge the auras without fear of retribution.

Eclipse moved to top of Bottom.

And as for Birds, you have Bastian, Calill, and Astrid. I'm sure they can provide some useful chip, if not a kill, to birds. Besides, the CRK have nothing better to do than chip the laguz while the Hawks and Elincia 2 turn Izuka.

Edited September 13, 2010 by Soren37

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

And you have 3 uses on the Ashera Staff, 7 uses with two Hammernes, plus Ashera has some lovely AoE attacks. Nihil means that you can charge the auras without fear of retribution.

Why would you need 7 uses if you're 3 turning at worst? Just Ashera Staff at the end of turn 1, Fortify to start turn 2 and Ashera Staff at the end, and Ashera Staff again if needed on turn 3.

And does +5 crit really make for a tier difference?

EDIT: If you're putting skills below Mercy/Flourish, I was intending Eclipse to be below those.

Edited September 13, 2010 by WeaponsofMassConstruction

[Krad]

And you have 3 uses on the Ashera Staff, 7 uses with two Hammernes, plus Ashera has some lovely AoE attacks. Nihil means that you can charge the auras without fear of retribution.

Why are you taking more than 3 turns in 4-E-5? Don't forget you also have 5 uses of Fortify.

Turn 1: After everyone attacks, use the Ashera staff.

Turn 2: Use Fortify, attack with everyone, Ashera staff again.

Turn 3: Fortify, damage, Ashera staff if you still haven't finished.

Turn 4 (shouldn't exist): Fortify, kill Ashera.

EDIT: Ninja'd.

Edited September 13, 2010 by Krad

[Tables]

You have 3 uses of the Ashera Staff on a chapter that'll take up to 3 turns. Nihil saves you taking damage that can therefore be easily healed, saving at best, one turn. I'm really not seeing how it's a top tier skill.

[Soren37]

Nihil will be dropped to Lower Mid, as it does help against the BK.

@WoMC: I'm not sure what you mean by the tier difference.

[Anouleth]

Nihil will be dropped to Lower Mid, as it does help against the BK.

@WoMC: I'm not sure what you mean by the tier difference.

Parity is better since it allows you to ORKO. Unless you're thinking of EM/NM.

[Soren37]

This is HM. How do Skills affect a HM efficiency PT, that is not "we must shave off as many turns as possible!!". Efficiency in this topic is completing the chapters in a timely fashion without doing stupid things (ie. Staff Spamming Laura).