[FE6] HM Draft Tournament

[Balcerzak]

I keep trying, but so far I cannot do chapter 4 in under 9 turns. I may just buck up, choose a strategy and record it sometime tonight.

[Raven]

The level of units that flood through those gates is simply too much for my units to survive, even if it's just Marcus, he gets killed by turn 4. Looks like I'm taking the high road.

[dondon151]

Balcerzak can use the fort drop strategy, but no one else has Thany, so...

[Junkhead]

But then Marcus has to deal with a ton of enemies. :/

[Raven]

But then Marcus has to deal with a ton of enemies. :/

Even then, he won't survive.

[Junkhead]

Oh...that's why Dondon stated "Fort drop". You drop him in a Fort so he can survive for long, seeing how awesome +20 Avo/1 Def is. Although I don't know how long will he last, especially knowing he 3RKOs most enemies.

[Raven]

Oh...that's why Dondon stated "Fort drop". You drop him in a Fort so he can survive for long, seeing how awesome +20 Avo/1 Def is. Although I don't know how long will he last, especially knowing he 3RKOs most enemies.

I had him on that mountain on the right of the gate, and he was still overwhelmed. Although using Thany and bypassing the gate would add 4 turns, it may also be quicker despite the penalty, it would also stop the reinforcements from appearing...

Edit: 20avo/1def is a forest, a gate gives 20avo/2def.

Edit: Fuck it, my drafts can't even handle the long way round by themselves. Someone keeps dying by turn 6. All units are to be travelling round.

Edited September 25, 2010 by Raven

[Raven]

Ch.5: Fire Emblem [21/65]

What a shit chapter. After trying several strategies, the safest and most reliable was to send everyone around the mountain. By turn 10 my units were only just passing the vendor and village. Meanwhile several undrafted units were used to block up the forts to stop enemy reinforcements. Along the way I gave Lugh the Angelic Robe and bought some Fires and more Vulneraries. Despite the high turn count, I got some lucky level ups as far as speed is concerned. When my units came to the castle, a Brigand would spawn each turn. As well as the other 2 Brigands, Mercenary and Mage there, these took several turns to clean up and pass too. Marcus got a critical on the boss with a Killing Edge, then Wolt chipped some more HP before Lugh gave the killing blow.

This chapter may be up for redoing, however with my current team I may just leave it. Also as I said earlier I just want to get through it with minimal restarts.

Edited September 26, 2010 by Raven

[Narga_Rocks]

Oh...that's why Dondon stated "Fort drop". You drop him in a Fort so he can survive for long, seeing how awesome +20 Avo/1 Def is. Although I don't know how long will he last, especially knowing he 3RKOs most enemies.

He lasted long enough for me when I used that idea. I don't even think I needed so much as a vulnerary. Not having to deal with those reinforcements makes it a LOT easier.

[dondon151]

Not only that, but fort gives 20% HP regeneration on top of the previously listed bonuses of having no reinforcements to deal with (you don't have to open the gate) and getting +20 avo and +2 def.

[Raven]

Chapter 5 revisited:

Ch.5: Fire Emblem [18/62]

I used Thany to pick up and drop Marcus onto the fort, adding an extra 4 turns onto my turn count, but still better than my last run of 21 turns without using Thany. Marcus was dropped, Thany then flew around to block the fort in the North-West of the map.Roy and the rest of the drafts took on the enemy units by the two closest forts. They were dealt with while Marcus was still scrapping with enemies that totally surrounded him. The drafts and Roy moved on, while Merlinus got the Gant Lance and did some shopping for Fires and Vulneraries.Took out the Mercenary and the Nomad along the way. The enemies around Marcus were thinned out to nothing but a few Brigands, so I figured it was safe enough to get marcus to go for the boss. Criticalled him on player phase, normal hit on enemy, healed the next turn and the boss was critkilled on enemy phase 13. Roy was in range of the gate, but Wolt, Ward, Marcus and Lugh cleaned up the rest of the Brigandds for extra experience. The stat gains for some of the units wasn't quite so great this time around, but Marcus got some speed and strength, hurrah.

Name--------Lv.-HP-Str-Skl-Spd-Luc-Def-Res-SUPPORT
Roy--------8.13-25---6---8--10--12---7---0--C Wolt
Marcus-----5.17-35--11--16--13--11--11---9--------
Bors-------4.95-23---8---5---5---5--13---0--------
Wolt-------6.02-22---7---8---6---3---7---1---C Roy
Ward-------9.67-35--10---8---9---8---4---0--------
Lugh-------6.88-26---5---7---8---5---3---7--------

Edited September 26, 2010 by Raven

[Balcerzak]

Chapter 4 was completed in 8 turns. I'm not going to lie, I got a lucky crit I wasn't expecting while I was testing out a new configuration, so I jumped on that like a fat kid on a twinkie. Marcus also had an epic growth level, which will hopefully help his staying power for the chapters to come. I'll come back and edit in the final stats and such when I get home from work, as well as the link to the video. Still no hint of Lance/Roy C, I may have to re-watch the vids and count how close I am, because that will help out a lot, I'm feeling.

I didn't realize that my Marcus doesn't have the Sword rank for the Killing Edge, so my first go at Ch5 was a miserable failure, as he had no swords at all, and I couldn't remember where the Iron Blade was. I'm going to re-do it properly tonight with accuracy rates on the boss that are above 50%. (I hope.) I'm also starting to get a little concerned about my funds supply, perhaps I will regret neglecting all of the free money from the earlier chapters. We shall see.

:

Chapter 4

Turns: 8

Total Turns: 32

Comments: See above.

Stats:

Roy:        6.27 21  8  8 10  9  7  4
Marcus:     3.52 34 10 14 13 10 10  9
Lance:      6.11 24  8  8 11  5  8  1
Merlinus:   1.01 15 BASE
Thany:      5.12 17  6  8 15  9  8  7
Chad:       2.87 17  3  3 11  5  2  0

Edited September 28, 2010 by Balcerzak

[Raven]

Good going.

As I may have said though, the draft run (this one anyway) is meant to be played in one go. First successful map completion should be the one we all roll with, whether we're lucky or unlucky in some way. The only reason I redid Ch.5 was because nobody else has done it yet.

[Radiant Dragon]

Good going.

As I may have said though, the draft run (this one anyway) is meant to be played in one go. First successful map completion should be the one we all roll with, whether we're lucky or unlucky in some way. The only reason I redid Ch.5 was because nobody else has done it yet.

I don't see anything wrong with trying different strategies to see what works best (and I have done chapter 5; 11 turns + 4 for Thany. I just haven't posted it yet because I've been busy with college and the other draft as well), just not reseting over and over again to manipulate misses/criticals.

Note that I'm not accusing Balcerzak of anything; it doesn't sound like he kept reseting to get a critical, he just found it while trying the chapter, and there's nothing wrong with that.

[dondon151]

As I may have said though, the draft run (this one anyway) is meant to be played in one go. First successful map completion should be the one we all roll with, whether we're lucky or unlucky in some way. The only reason I redid Ch.5 was because nobody else has done it yet.

But you still redid it? So it's still a contradiction.

I hardly ever get the most optimal strategies on the first try. Some of the RD videos were on like the 18th try, so you're asking a bit too much of everyone to try to get the most optimal completion on the first try.

[Raven]

What's the point in having it as a tournament if the people with the best units wins and the results are the best a person is possibly able to achieve? Why not just draft all the characters then automatically give first place to the person with the best units overall and not bother playing? Nothing against Balcerzak of course, but that's simply how I see it.

Also a side-note, I still have the save file of when I first completed Ch.5 in 21 turns.

[Silvercrow]

Because both the game and the people who play it are more complex than that.

[Raven]

Because both the game and the people who play it are more complex than that.

Yes. But, this is a tournament. What if everyone restarted everything in any tournament just because they didn't like a result?

Examples: I lost 4 turns during my FE8 tourney because my units kept missing the boss. I didn't restart.

England was knocked out of the Fifa World Cup. They (were supposed to) have the best players they could get, but still lost. Couldn't restart it.

Just because the game gives us the option to restart a chapter/game, it doesn't mean we should just because we don't like something. Isn't my point of view going through to anyone, or better yet, even understood by anyone? I'm even willing to continue using the save file I first did just to try to prove my point and make others understand how this thing should roll.

As I said, I restarted it only because nobody else had posted Ch.5 results in this tournament, and so I had nothing to go by and no target to aim for except the Normal Mode tournaments (They are Normal right?)

Edited September 28, 2010 by Raven

[Narga_Rocks]

Yes. But, this is a tournament. What if everyone restarted everything in any tournament just because they didn't like a result?

Examples: I lost 4 turns during my FE8 run because my units kept missing the boss. I didn't restart.

Um, you shouldn't be restarting in that situation anyway. So is the problem that you don't like the idea of restarting to get a better strategy because you don't understand what that means?

I said it earlier. If you send Thany left, realize that was a stupid idea and instead want to send her right, that should be fine. It is completely different from restarting because you don't like how the RNG treated you.

Just because the game gives us the option to restart a chapter/game, it doesn't mean we should just because we don't like something. Isn't my point of view going through to anyone, or better yet, even understood by anyone?

This is hilarious given how you don't appear to be understanding our point of view. Or at least, those of us with a reasonable one.

I'm even willing to continue using the save file I first did just to try to prove my point and make others understand how this thing should roll.

As I said, I restarted it only because nobody else had posted Ch.5 results in this tournament, and so I had nothing to go by and no target to aim for except the Normal Mode tournaments (They are Normal right?)

"England only redid that match because nobody else has done their quarter finals yet" (Yeah, I know it doesn't quite work because the team that beat them had started, but you get the point)

If it is wrong, it is wrong. If it isn't, it isn't. However, I doubt you'll find that the people are willing to do it your way. Besides, a lot of people do what are effectively trial runs. Just go at a chapter randomly, see how things move, figure out the best way to deal with it. And not everyone can look at the starting positions and see how everything will work out if they go at it. Considering you are operating on an honour system anyway (don't lie about turncount or non-drafted usage) I don't see the problem with "don't read other people's posts to get an idea on how to play a given chapter". If your justification for your own restart was "nobody had played it yet so I should be allowed to try new strategies since I'm obviously not copying someone" then just extend the honour system to this.

[Silvercrow]

Examples: I lost 4 turns during my FE8 tourney because my units kept missing the boss. I didn't restart.

Example: I lost about as many turns during the FE8 tourney because Gerik didn't unearth the warp staff. I didn't restart.

Another example: In the FE8 tourney, I tried using a strategy to clear chapter 6 (involving just blitzing across the field) that I didn't like very much and didn't really save any time. So I restarted and had Vanessa skirt the map and kill the boss solo. How is this wrong? People that blitzed the field cleared the chapter just as quickly. It was purely a preference thing.

[Raven]

Um, you shouldn't be restarting in that situation anyway. So is the problem that you don't like the idea of restarting to get a better strategy because you don't understand what that means?

I said it earlier. If you send Thany left, realize that was a stupid idea and instead want to send her right, that should be fine. It is completely different from restarting because you don't like how the RNG treated you.

That much is true, I'll not argue against this point.

This is hilarious given how you don't appear to be understanding our point of view. Or at least, those of us with a reasonable one.

I understand, it's simply I just don't quite agree with restarting during a tournament. It's supposed to test people on their knowledge and skill of the game (regardless of the RNG). If a person didn't know enemies spawned somewhere at a certain time, then that's their problem. However if nobody dies, that is no reason to restart a chapter.

"England only redid that match because nobody else has done their quarter finals yet" (Yeah, I know it doesn't quite work because the team that beat them had started, but you get the point)

If it is wrong, it is wrong. If it isn't, it isn't. However, I doubt you'll find that the people are willing to do it your way. Besides, a lot of people do what are effectively trial runs. Just go at a chapter randomly, see how things move, figure out the best way to deal with it. And not everyone can look at the starting positions and see how everything will work out if they go at it. Considering you are operating on an honour system anyway (don't lie about turncount or non-drafted usage) I don't see the problem with "don't read other people's posts to get an idea on how to play a given chapter". If your justification for your own restart was "nobody had played it yet so I should be allowed to try new strategies since I'm obviously not copying someone" then just extend the honour system to this.

That is what I'm hoping to do.

[Narga_Rocks]

I understand, it's simply I just don't quite agree with restarting during a tournament. It's supposed to test people on their knowledge and skill of the game (regardless of the RNG). If a person didn't know enemies spawned somewhere at a certain time, then that's their problem. However if nobody dies, that is no reason to restart a chapter.

@italics: still don't get it

@underline: ok, maybe you half get it?

@bold: Then you are just asking for intentional suicide. Let's just skip that part and restart without wasting the effort of sending someone to die.

That is what I'm hoping to do.

Um, that's an argument for extending the honour system to trying new strategies but not basing them off other people's strategies. It isn't suggesting that people don't try new strategies.

Besides, anyone can go to wars of dragons if they want to know where and when reinforcements appear. The trick is figuring out how everything will play out in a chapter and planning your strategy accordingly.

Going back to soccer/football, players watch video of the other team before a game to see how they work. Hours upon hours of video. Consider the two or three pseudo attempts at a chapter to be watching video of how the opposition performs and what they do in a given situation. Their skills and their faults. Now consider the actual "attempt" at the chapter to be the game. Whatever happens in the game is what happens. You can't change that. If the RNG doesn't like you, too bad. That kind of thing. See where I'm going with this?

[Balcerzak]

To be fair, most of my testing runs I never play through to completion. E.g. the Ch5 run I alluded to where I forgot to give Marcus a (usable) sword, I just stopped playing it when it became clear that I screwed the pooch on my planning, which was roughly turn 13, because I knew I could do better. My playstyle is in the habit of frequent and repeated soft-resets as I realize "oops, stupid mistake on the positioning there, that'll probably cost me in the long run", and I don't often bother to see if it does or does not. On rare occasions I'll actually see something through to the end after making what I consider to be a blunder, but that's something like one time out of twenty. This extends also to incidents with non-drafted characters and their possible death, like Rutger's fate a couple of times in Ch4 when I had him hold onto Clarine (who needs to live for recruitment's sake) because I didn't realize that for some reason Rutger is the AI's priority target.

I suppose I could try to force myself out of the habit of give up frequently and often, but it'll involve significant effort.

If it's more in tune with the spirit of this draft, I'll gladly take some +x penalties for redoing chapters, where x is the difference in turns taken from first draft to final draft, but for personal edification I want to continue to retry my strategies until I have them where I like them.

So that would give me a +1 on Ch2, and a +1 on Ch4, which were originally both 9 turn completions. Considering I never finished Ch5, and Lance!Marcus was probably about to die against the Boss, I don't think anything is warranted there yet.

[Radiant Dragon]

I agree with Narga here. I always considered these tournaments more of a challenge where the objective is to find the best strategy to complete the chapter as quickly as possible with what you have, not simply what you get the first time through is what you're stuck with.

For example, I tried multiple strategies in my Chapter 5 run:

• Sending everyone through the gate, which got my undrafted units attacked by the eastern enemies.
• Sending Dieck east to occupy the eastern enemies while Marcus and Rutger charged the gate, which got them overwhelmed by the reinforcements.
• Using Thany to fort-drop Marcus past that gate so I didn't have to deal with the reinforcements. This one worked.

I see nothing wrong with trying different strategies to see what works best, as long as it doesn't venture into the realm of rng abuse (like trying to clear 20x Sacae in one turn, or reseting until your units dodge/critical when you need them to).

On the subject of 20x Sacae, what's your policy on restarts there Raven? I'm all for not counting it turncount-wise, but it's your topic so I want to know what you, as well as everyone else, thinks.

Edited September 29, 2010 by Radiant Dragon

[Raven]

@italics: still don't get it

@underline: ok, maybe you half get it?

@bold: Then you are just asking for intentional suicide. Let's just skip that part and restart without wasting the effort of sending someone to die.

Um, that's an argument for extending the honour system to trying new strategies but not basing them off other people's strategies. It isn't suggesting that people don't try new strategies.

Besides, anyone can go to wars of dragons if they want to know where and when reinforcements appear. The trick is figuring out how everything will play out in a chapter and planning your strategy accordingly.

Going back to soccer/football, players watch video of the other team before a game to see how they work. Hours upon hours of video. Consider the two or three pseudo attempts at a chapter to be watching video of how the opposition performs and what they do in a given situation. Their skills and their faults. Now consider the actual "attempt" at the chapter to be the game. Whatever happens in the game is what happens. You can't change that. If the RNG doesn't like you, too bad. That kind of thing. See where I'm going with this?

Yeah clearly. It's just that I see that the person's previous experiences with the game (which aren't involved with the tourney) as the football team watching hours of video of their competitor. I don't think that a person should be able to mess up on accident then hit the reset switch to correct it. Purposely killing a unit just to reset would be breaking the unwritten honour code. It is exactly what makes the tournament exciting and unpredictable. And that's what I want from this game. I'm not interested in the best turn counts humanely possible with the drafted units. It's all well and good if you're capable of doing that from the first go, but otherwise I'm not for it. It's not too much to ask, surely.

To be fair, most of my testing runs I never play through to completion. E.g. the Ch5 run I alluded to where I forgot to give Marcus a (usable) sword, I just stopped playing it when it became clear that I screwed the pooch on my planning, which was roughly turn 13, because I knew I could do better. My playstyle is in the habit of frequent and repeated soft-resets as I realize "oops, stupid mistake on the positioning there, that'll probably cost me in the long run", and I don't often bother to see if it does or does not. On rare occasions I'll actually see something through to the end after making what I consider to be a blunder, but that's something like one time out of twenty. This extends also to incidents with non-drafted characters and their possible death, like Rutger's fate a couple of times in Ch4 when I had him hold onto Clarine (who needs to live for recruitment's sake) because I didn't realize that for some reason Rutger is the AI's priority target.

I suppose I could try to force myself out of the habit of give up frequently and often, but it'll involve significant effort.

If it's more in tune with the spirit of this draft, I'll gladly take some +x penalties for redoing chapters, where x is the difference in turns taken from first draft to final draft, but for personal edification I want to continue to retry my strategies until I have them where I like them.

So that would give me a +1 on Ch2, and a +1 on Ch4, which were originally both 9 turn completions. Considering I never finished Ch5, and Lance!Marcus was probably about to die against the Boss, I don't think anything is warranted there yet.

No it's fine, I know you are a perfectionist (I am normally as you might have seen in the FE7 draft we were in) but as I said just up there, I feel it takes the fun out of it a little. Especially when people are getting frustrated over what is seemingly a flawless plan exploding in their face because of RNG etc.. It might not help with getting as good of a run as you could possibly get, but that's the point.

Edited September 29, 2010 by Raven