The Decline of jRPGs

[Lucent]

To begin, I just wanted to say that parts of this argument can apply to any other genre in the video game world, and I decided to use the jRPG to make it something that everyone can relate to, seeing the vast amount of threads regarding games which fall under the genre here. On that established point, I would like there to be no arguments stating that other genres are bland for the same reasons. With that point settled, I shall now continue onto my argument.

I used to be a pretty avid console gamer. I also love my depth and immersion like any person who decides to play video games on their spare time. There have been many advances, many genres, many influences, and at this point, we can now establish that video games can be on the same level as books, paintings, music and film.

It can be.

However, what defines art the most out of anything of which it provides to the world is innovation and a spread of new ideas to influence us as humans to make proper choices and to form new opinions based on such art. You can form the opinion "this is aesthetically pleasing" or "I agree with what one of the characters is saying here" or "the subtext behind this game is truly an excellent expression on the subject of X" (where X can be a variable of anything ranging from any topic in the universe, existing or non-existing.) Video games, with the advent of new technology, is beginning to slowly merge story and game play together in order to grant itself uniqueness in terms of its own right. At this rate, gaming will be further accepted by the common media and not subject to stereotypes portrayed upon "gamers": the whiny, self indulgent, immature nerds that the common paints upon "gamers".

The first step is dropping the label as "gamer" upon yourself. That's a topic for another discussion, however. The second step is taken by game developers themselves, and for the game developers to stop treating games as if they're just games. While the common brown gritty FPS is one of the first markets to blame on the extremist scale of game play and story segregation, where the two elements sit on the opposite side of the fence growling at each other, the lesser-talked about genre on the other side of the spectrum, the jRPG, is also up for criticism.

Let's take a good look at the genre's history before we go on. In the days of the NES, we had games like Dragon Warrior and Final Fantasy. These two games built the genre's very roots, with the gameplay mechanics of which a lot of us are familiar with, including turn based strategy, random battles, story progressed plot, and the freedom to put yourself in the position of the protagonist(s) at hand in order to role play. Unfortunately for the technology at the time, the plots were usually excuse-plots to focus on game play alone, and leave the player's imagination to fill in the blanks for how his or her quest would unfold.

Fast forward. Story began to slowly move its way into the genre by the early 90s, beginning with games like Final Fantasy II (IV), EarthBound and Chrono Trigger, among others. These games did some phenomenal things for the genre by including this type of immersion, like reading a book. Some of the translation was a bit off, but the feeling was still there that you were roleplaying as your protagonist and completing an epic quest.

What made this feeling in the first place? That's simple: game play and story immersion. They married nicely to each other in various given scenarios. Take a look at Earthbound's final boss for example. Without spoiling too much, the whole point of the boss fight was to make you feel isolated, scared, and alone. It succeeded. Various humor within Super Mario RPG? Done through game play, such as sudden interruptions in the middle of the fight to break the fourth wall or have a character's witty dialogue work its way into the game. Even some of the attacks were downright silly to fit in with the game's mood and feeling. Chrono Trigger? Don't get me started on how beautiful of a game this was.

Now, fast forward. We have more than enough technology to continue this trend of blending story and game play together seamlessly to create a fast paced, beautiful experience. Why is it so bad as of the moment right now? Well, let's first take a glaring look at the company who we first think of when we think of the jRPG. Yes, you know. That company. The company tends to want to throw gameplay and story on the opposite sides of the fence, and let it orchestrate itself. Their approach seems to be that they want to reward the player with the lush, beautifully animated cutscenes and story elements for completing battles. It's Skinner's principles being put into effect. It's why grinding tends to work a lot in console video games in order to extend game play in the laziest manner possible.

The genre doesn't seem to want to expand itself very far right now. Within a lot of RPGs lies a lot of the given tropes of turn based random encounters among other principle tropes of the genre which are ever so common as of the given moment. Without evolution, things become dated and slowly die out in the onslaught of other beasts of which are the predators to weak prey. The genre needs to expand itself in new ways and grant the players new options in order to complete their quest. There needs to be a sense of actual challenge to the game rather than tacked on difficulty which seems to be common with the jRPG genre today. With enough innovation and risk put on the line, a great jRPG is out there and willing to be made. Heck, a new God of War trend might start before our very eyes!

The stories are remaining in quality standards for some companies, but not others. Stories should not be an award for completing a task, but should be implemented into the story as you move along the crooked path. "That company" tend to be the biggest offenders of this, with TWEWY and the later Final Fantasies (the ones after 6). Story within game play can be done in multiple ways, such as one of my favourite scenes from Mother 3, where Lucas and co. get high on 'shrooms. Don't ask, you'll know when you get there.

Aesthetical property also tends to not innovate itself either, such as in artistic direction. Multiple games with Saturday-morning anime characters have been released within the jRPG genre time and time again, and that's more of a niche than it is an attracting factor. My biggest disappointment is when this niche reached the Castlevania franchise from Aria of Sorrow to Dawn of Sorrow. Although not a jRPG, a part of me died that day when the GBA classic was made into a DS selling device. Intelligent Systems managed to change the aesthetic in the Paper Mario series of games, and managed to implement the very art style cleverly into game play itself, for a great example of how the genre can change.

Last but not least...gameplay needs to be less complex. I don't want to open a chest now, knowing that later if I didn't open it that it will have the infinity-plus-one sword in it.I want a game I can figure out by putting two and two together and knowing I was smart enough to figure out the puzzle at hand, not some thing of which you would need to go to GameFAQs for in order to figure out because somebody looked into the source code. Or had too much time on their hands.

That's my input. I would love to hear your feedback! :3

[Fayt Zelpher]

I'm just going to say one thing.

RPGs, and JRPGs in particular have been in decline (in my opinion) because of the mainstream focus on graphics. It's not story and gameplay segregation that's the real problem. It's that a large segment of the mainstream market (those pesky casual gamers <_< ) care more how games look than how they play.

I'm sure there are those of you out there who've seen/heard/experienced this conversation:

A: You should play Chrono Trigger/Earthbound/FFVI/ insert classic RPG here.

B: No thanks!

A: But these are some of the greatest games of all time!

B: Not interested. Graphics suck!

A:

And unfortunately, that trend isn't going to reverse itself as long as game companies keep stressing the power of video cards / etc.

More unfortunately, it's Sports games and FPS's that are most conducive to solving this problem for companies, and so that's what gets published (and what people are buying).

Of course, when consoles start costing $500 new and games being $60, I'll probably purchase them again, but that's a discussion for another topic.

[lolDeath]

Yeah, the majority of the consumers who support the gaming market are killing games! Those bastards.

[Lucent]

I'm just going to say one thing.

RPGs, and JRPGs in particular have been in decline (in my opinion) because of the mainstream focus on graphics. It's not story and gameplay segregation that's the real problem. It's that a large segment of the mainstream market (those pesky casual gamers <_< ) care more how games look than how they play.

I'm sure there are those of you out there who've seen/heard/experienced this conversation:

A: You should play Chrono Trigger/Earthbound/FFVI/ insert classic RPG here.

B: No thanks!

A: But these are some of the greatest games of all time!

B: Not interested. Graphics suck!

A:

And unfortunately, that trend isn't going to reverse itself as long as game companies keep stressing the power of video cards / etc.

More unfortunately, it's Sports games and FPS's that are most conducive to solving this problem for companies, and so that's what gets published (and what people are buying).

Of course, when consoles start costing $500 new and games being $60, I'll probably purchase them again, but that's a discussion for another topic.

I have to disagree, as I knew this counterpoint would be brought up. This is based on multiple things:

1. Statistics. Sure, Black Ops is selling like manufactured bread...but you've yet to define what a "pesky casual gamer" is. A lot of them really do not care for graphics, as the sales of games like Plants vs Zombies has been rather large as of recent. This is not because of the fact that the game is pretty as much as it is fun.

2. It's Square Enix who are focusing on their graphics. Take a look at Atlus, Intelligent Systems and Nippon Ichi when talking about jRPGs and graphics. Let's not forget that Final Fantasy XIII and XIV were both critically panned.

3. The highest selling games of all time are not graphically composed. Go to wikipedia and then look up the article on best selling games.

4. I made a discussion about aesthetical values (which include) graphics above which you seemed to have skimmed by.

5. People may be dumb, but they're not dumb enough to tell a bad game from a good game. I cannot vouch for Modern Warfare since I've never played it, but I had a very good time playing Halo with my friends. It's about fun and people recognize fun. That's why some FPS games do not sell well.

6. Half-Life is the highest selling FPS of all time. Look at its graphics, please.

7. Sports games have been on a recent decline in sales as of late.

8. Take a look at Steam's sale page. Behind Black Ops lies Super Meat Boy in 4th place. The game is an incredibly brutal platformer which had only one animator and one programmer, made entirely in Flash.

9. Strongest point: The Wii has a Gamecube graphics card. It is the highest selling console on the market right now.

10. If you would be so kind to also take a look at GameFAQs and its most popular games right now, please.

Thank you for letting me dispel the myth that graphics were a focus.

Yeah, the majority of the consumers who support the gaming market are killing games! Those bastards.

Yes.

Edited December 7, 2010 by Lucent

[Kanami]

Despite what you've said, I still agree with Fujibayashi. :/

Though my thoughts are on the other side of the spectrum, and it's not the "pesky kids" that demand good graphics, but the industry which conditions us to demand pretty graphics. You're right in saying it's not a major factor (in jRPG's at least anyway). But it still is a significant one. And by no means is the "graphics" issue a myth. That's like saying The earth orbiting around the sun is a myth because it can't be seen at night. (In other words ignoring details like Target Audience, Gameplay, genre etc and focusing everything on the one fact that mediocre graphic games sell well too).

1: False, a lot of casual gamers do care about the graphics, I for one will willing admit to graphics being an issue for me at times. And I'm going to go as far as accusing the rest of mankind that they're the same. Since god knows how long ago, people have looked at appearances to form their initial impressions on a subject. Sure, it's not the only determining factor, but I for one probably wouldn't play the latest best seller if it was in black and white. (for no good reason). Since I like color thanks.

Gaming isn't about meeting a standard though, and if 8bit graphics aren't pleasing to your sense of entertainment, it doesn't matter how great a game is/was. If it doesn't suit an individual, it just doesn't. It doesn't go any further then that.

2: Haven't played the new FF's. Last one I played was 9 (7~9) and I didn't like any of the three games. And I've done the unthinkable and blacklisted SquareEnix games from my game collection. But I honestly don't think it's just SquareEnix that is pouring too much effort into graphics.

3: Your argument failed the moment you referenced Wikipedia <_< But even if I ignored the Wiki reference, your statement only proves that graphics aren't the only defining factor of a good game. It doesn't prove that graphics aren't an integral part of judging a game.

4: *Shrug*

5: People are dumb, and they'll listen to what others tell them. (FF fandom) The opinion of ones peers is an essential part of making a decision, and the reason reviews exist (professional, or amateur). A bad game, book, anime, whatever can be sold to an audience and be popularized with the right techniques and focuses.

6: Is Half-life even a Jrpg?

7: See above

8: Okay, I obviously need to pull a quote <_<

On that established point, I would like there to be no arguments stating that other genres are bland for the same reasons. With that point settled, I shall now continue onto my argument.

So lets just remove that statement shall we? It's a stupid request, and you can't ask people not to compare negatively when you're comparing individual games positively across genres.

That said, outside the Jrpg genre there has been an intense amount of focus on graphics, most likely attributed from the "it feels real" effect. And I've found several games to sacrifice gameplay and plot for stunning graphics. (If not intentionally, unintentionally in the planning stages)

9: See Orbit comment up top, completely ignoring TAudience, cost among other factors here. Nevermind you're no longer comparing inter-genre games, but entire consoles now.

10: Same as 9

[Nightmare]

Uh, yeah, this topic doesn't belong here, as serious as you would like to make it seem.

Moved to Other Games.

Edited December 7, 2010 by Nightmare

[Lucent]

Despite what you've said, I still agree with Fujibayashi. :/

Though my thoughts are on the other side of the spectrum, and it's not the "pesky kids" that demand good graphics, but the industry which conditions us to demand pretty graphics. You're right in saying it's not a major factor (in jRPG's at least anyway). But it still is a significant one. And by no means is the "graphics" issue a myth. That's like saying The earth orbiting around the sun is a myth because it can't be seen at night. (In other words ignoring details like Target Audience, Gameplay, genre etc and focusing everything on the one fact that mediocre graphic games sell well too).

1: False, a lot of casual gamers do care about the graphics, I for one will willing admit to graphics being an issue for me at times. And I'm going to go as far as accusing the rest of mankind that they're the same. Since god knows how long ago, people have looked at appearances to form their initial impressions on a subject. Sure, it's not the only determining factor, but I for one probably wouldn't play the latest best seller if it was in black and white. (for no good reason). Since I like color thanks.

Gaming isn't about meeting a standard though, and if 8bit graphics aren't pleasing to your sense of entertainment, it doesn't matter how great a game is/was. If it doesn't suit an individual, it just doesn't. It doesn't go any further then that.

2: Haven't played the new FF's. Last one I played was 9 (7~9) and I didn't like any of the three games. And I've done the unthinkable and blacklisted SquareEnix games from my game collection. But I honestly don't think it's just SquareEnix that is pouring too much effort into graphics.

3: Your argument failed the moment you referenced Wikipedia <_< But even if I ignored the Wiki reference, your statement only proves that graphics aren't the only defining factor of a good game. It doesn't prove that graphics aren't an integral part of judging a game.

4: *Shrug*

5: People are dumb, and they'll listen to what others tell them. (FF fandom) The opinion of ones peers is an essential part of making a decision, and the reason reviews exist (professional, or amateur). A bad game, book, anime, whatever can be sold to an audience and be popularized with the right techniques and focuses.

6: Is Half-life even a Jrpg?

7: See above

8: Okay, I obviously need to pull a quote <_<So lets just remove that statement shall we? It's a stupid request, and you can't ask people not to compare negatively when you're comparing individual games positively across genres.

That said, outside the Jrpg genre there has been an intense amount of focus on graphics, most likely attributed from the "it feels real" effect. And I've found several games to sacrifice gameplay and plot for stunning graphics. (If not intentionally, unintentionally in the planning stages)

9: See Orbit comment up top, completely ignoring TAudience, cost among other factors here. Nevermind you're no longer comparing inter-genre games, but entire consoles now.

10: Same as 9

The graphics is the smallest issue right now. You're telling me jRPGs are declining due to a focus on graphics. I say that they are declining due to gameplay and story integration. You are ignoring the efforts of every company out there which sells jRPGs at a substantial rate with quality, which include Intelligent Systems, Nippon Ichi and Atlus. All three of these companies are receiving higher acclaim than most high end Square titles right now, and none of these companies focus on graphical standards at all. In fact, some of them even use the graphics to integrate further emotion and tie the story with the gameplay.

A lot of your points tend to fall under the following statements in a clear eye from my perspective:

-NO IT ISN'T YOU'RE WRONG (lack of proof to support backing evidence)

-Assumptions

-Disregarding valid points regardless of the context given based on your personal viewpoints and standards

-Making the "people are dumb" argument. When you come out of high school, you will notice very quickly that you are wrong. Very wrong.

The "graphics are the issue" thing is a blatant myth. Metacritic? GameFAQs? They have a score rankings based on the opinions of the public, as smart or as dumb as they may seem. Black Ops probably sells well because it's a good game. Final Fantasy sells well because there were previously good games in the series and people wish to see what Square does. Sonic? People are still looking for the day of where he can be thrown back into the spotlight. What sells games is not graphics. What sells games is good marketing. Graphics are just one insignificant factor when putting into a game. Gameplay and story is the rest. The integration from you to the character is the true point behind video games as an art. People recognize this.

Also, brown gritty games are being sold because triple-A developers don't like taking risks. It's because most of these games cost millions of dollars to make, and it's better to make a mediocre game which sells a bit above profit than take a risk and either get in the gold or go bankrupt. Believe me, they would make a beautifully designed game like Shadow of the Colossus or Half Life with the innovation those two games had if they had the chance and stray away from this EVIL BAD FOCUS of which the two of you assume gaming is built upon these days.

Oh, and I chose Half Life as an example of sales, not as gameplay integrity or "OMG FPS RUIN EVERYTHING".

Edited December 7, 2010 by Lucent

[eclipse]

-Making the "people are dumb" argument. When you come out of high school, you will notice very quickly that you are wrong. Very wrong.

Try working a full-time job while dealing with other people. When it comes to something more complicated than Tetris, people are dumb.

Most people here have seen multiple jRPGs, it looks like it's declining, because there's a pattern behind the mechanics and story (watch story which almost invariably ends up being some epic quest to save the world, go to some location and/or do errands, fight, get stronger, repeat). I happen to be quite fond of FFXIII, because I really hate wandering around some overworld with random things trying to kill me.

Also, it's cool to complain about something that most people think is a Good Thing.

[IGdood]

Try out some wRPGs for a change... Fallout 3, Dragon Age: Origins, Mass Effect 1 and 2 come into mind.

Perhaps jRPGs need to be more immersive? Take a look at Dragon Age and Mass Effect: there's at least one paragraph that explains each element/character followed by numerous passages on the history of the game's universe and such. Voice acting, excellent music, and graphics are one thing, but getting to know a whole new world is another. Yes, you can do it via storytelling by the characters...but still...

Like maybe Disgaea. There's at least a paragraph that describes each job class, which makes for an enjoyable read, and maybe a funny one-liner about each item.

[Lucent]

Try out some wRPGs for a change... Fallout 3, Dragon Age: Origins, Mass Effect 1 and 2 come into mind.

Perhaps jRPGs need to be more immersive? Take a look at Dragon Age and Mass Effect: there's at least one paragraph that explains each element/character followed by numerous passages on the history of the game's universe and such. Voice acting, excellent music, and graphics are one thing, but getting to know a whole new world is another. Yes, you can do it via storytelling by the characters...but still...

Like maybe Disgaea. There's at least a paragraph that describes each job class, which makes for an enjoyable read, and maybe a funny one-liner about each item.

Disgaea is a grindfest however, taking away from the immersion entirely using a Skinner Box.

[lolDeath]

-Making the "people are dumb" argument. When you come out of high school, you will notice very quickly that you are wrong. Very wrong.

lol because everyone who disagrees with you is just some stupid fucking high school kid who knows nothing of the world, right?

Right.

and fuck Fallout 3. New Vegas or busttt.

Edited December 8, 2010 by Death

[Lucent]

lol because everyone who disagrees with you is just some stupid fucking high school kid who knows nothing of the world, right?

Right.

and fuck Fallout 3. New Vegas or busttt.

It's an assumption I make a lot and by trend, it usually follows.

It may be an American thing though. Who knows.

[IGdood]

Disgaea is a grindfest however, taking away from the immersion entirely using a Skinner Box.

True.....bad example by me.

lol because everyone who disagrees with you is just some stupid fucking high school kid who knows nothing of the world, right?

Right.

and fuck Fallout 3. New Vegas or busttt.

-slaps myself- RIGHT. I forgot about New Vegas and the better mechanics. WOOPS.

[lolDeath]

That's kind of sad.

[Defeatist Elitist]

World of Warcraft.

Make your time.

[Lucent]

World of Warcraft.

Make your time.

What about Borecraft?

[Kanami]

It may be an American thing though. Who knows.

You're American?... That would explain so much :/

The graphics is the smallest issue right now. You're telling me jRPGs are declining due to a focus on graphics. I say that they are declining due to gameplay and story integration. You are ignoring the efforts of every company out there which sells jRPGs at a substantial rate with quality, which include Intelligent Systems, Nippon Ichi and Atlus. All three of these companies are receiving higher acclaim than most high end Square titles right now, and none of these companies focus on graphical standards at all. In fact, some of them even use the graphics to integrate further emotion and tie the story with the gameplay.

Right, because Square is the king of the world, and they're clearly doing something wrong if they're not always at the top of the best sellers list <_< As far as I'm concerned the only thing Square has going for it is it's FF fandom. And as you say later on in your post, it comes from previously successful games. (Games which I thought were boring).

@Bold+Underline

Firstly you're an idiot, If you disagree read that statement again, and again and again until you realize how stupid that remark is.

@Bold only

Of course, there can only ever be one type of "good art style" right? Being Jrpg's you'd think Disgaeas anime style would make sense, but no. Of course they all need to max out the PS3/360's capabilities <_< Honestly, you make valid points, but they're so narrowminded, you ignore everything else.

A lot of your points tend to fall under the following statements in a clear eye from my perspective:

-NO IT ISN'T YOU'RE WRONG (lack of proof to support backing evidence)

-Assumptions

-Disregarding valid points regardless of the context given based on your personal viewpoints and standards

-Making the "people are dumb" argument. When you come out of high school, you will notice very quickly that you are wrong. Very wrong.

Oh really? That's good, it means I'm arguing on the same level as you then. You're only argument which makes any proper sense is the sales of certain games. Which is easily nulled by my statement previously that "graphics" don't make a game, several other factors work together to create a game. Look at the entire picture kid. As for people being intelligent? Get out of college and interact with "society" and then maybe you'll notice that the world isn't as smart as you'd like to think. And if you're a working member of society, then you really do need to open your eyes.

Graphics are just one insignificant factor when putting into a game. Gameplay and story is the rest. The integration from you to the character is the true point behind video games as an art. People recognize this.

Firstly and foremostly, I've bolded and underlined another statement, see above for instructions. Your beloved Gamesfaq and whatever other review sites you refer to list graphics, and Sound as core components along with Gameplay, calling them insignificant is not only false, but a clear representation of your childish bias.

Rant all you want, but video games are not an "art" for most gamers, it's a form of entertainment. They play it for the entertainment factor, not to frame the cd on their living room wall and admire the CD/box/screenshots. I am aware you don't mean art to be paintings and pottery, but frankly, with your classification of "art" everything from a random idea to the latest invention could be considered "art"

It's because most of these games cost millions of dollars to make, and it's better to make a mediocre game which sells a bit above profit than take a risk and either get in the gold or go bankrupt. Believe me, they would make a beautifully designed game like Shadow of the Colossus or Half Life with the innovation those two games had if they had the chance and stray away from this EVIL BAD FOCUS of which the two of you assume gaming is built upon these days.

Right, Halflife and ShadowCol are the pinnacle of good graphics, sure. As I said earlier, there's only one form of graphics that are acceptable right? /sarcasm. And once again, JRPG's?

You were fond of accusing me of making my comments on assumptions and unsupported facts. So this time I'll ask you for citation on why I should believe game creators are unwilling to take these supposed "risks." Unfortunately I'm afraid your claim there is just your opinion, and not worth "believing" :/

[Nanami Touko]

Kanami, tl;dr, but, I gotta agree on Lucent with one thing. IS, Nippon Ichi and Atlus DO NOT focus on graphical standards for games. If the graphical standard of things today are games like FF13 and CoD Black Ops, and SMG2, then games made by these companies don't stand up in the graphics department at all.

I mean, IS does Fire Emblem and Paper Mario, Nippon Ichi does Disgaea, and Atlus does Yggdra Union/Etrian Odyssey, and all those types of games. None of these have overly impressive graphics, so...

Yay, totally dropping out of the argument now~

EDIT: He's actually Canadian, btw XD

Edited December 8, 2010 by seph1212

[Lucent]

You're American?... That would explain so much :/

As Trent said, I'm Canadian.

Right, because Square is the king of the world, and they're clearly doing something wrong if they're not always at the top of the best sellers list <_< As far as I'm concerned the only thing Square has going for it is it's FF fandom. And as you say later on in your post, it comes from previously successful games. (Games which I thought were boring).

Hype and decent marketting.

@Bold+Underline

Firstly you're an idiot, If you disagree read that statement again, and again and again until you realize how stupid that remark is.

@Bold only

Of course, there can only ever be one type of "good art style" right? Being Jrpg's you'd think Disgaeas anime style would make sense, but no. Of course they all need to max out the PS3/360's capabilities <_< Honestly, you make valid points, but they're so narrowminded, you ignore everything else.

Yes, because it's obvious that Nippon Ichi and Atlus are trying to push the very limits of the 512 MB of RAM that the PS3 has. Also, I'm stating that there's multiple styles of art which can be used to increase game play standards. Evolution isn't about being better, it's about being different.

Thanks for calling me an idiot by the way.

Oh really? That's good, it means I'm arguing on the same level as you then. You're only argument which makes any proper sense is the sales of certain games. Which is easily nulled by my statement previously that "graphics" don't make a game, several other factors work together to create a game. Look at the entire picture kid. As for people being intelligent? Get out of college and interact with "society" and then maybe you'll notice that the world isn't as smart as you'd like to think. And if you're a working member of society, then you really do need to open your eyes.

I'm looking at sales in order to counterpoint your assumptions on the common public, which is your main argument, which is a valid counterpoint.

Great assumptions you desire to make there as well.

Firstly and foremostly, I've bolded and underlined another statement, see above for instructions. Your beloved Gamesfaq and whatever other review sites you refer to list graphics, and Sound as core components along with Gameplay, calling them insignificant is not only false, but a clear representation of your childish bias.

More insults? You couldn't have!

Graphics and sound look at how well the aesthetic is pulled off within a game. IE: Graphics can be 10/10 and be NES quality if it fits the themes.

Rant all you want, but video games are not an "art" for most gamers, it's a form of entertainment. They play it for the entertainment factor, not to frame the cd on their living room wall and admire the CD/box/screenshots. I am aware you don't mean art to be paintings and pottery, but frankly, with your classification of "art" everything from a random idea to the latest invention could be considered "art"

Right, Halflife and ShadowCol are the pinnacle of good graphics, sure. As I said earlier, there's only one form of graphics that are acceptable right? /sarcasm. And once again, JRPG's?

You were fond of accusing me of making my comments on assumptions and unsupported facts. So this time I'll ask you for citation on why I should believe game creators are unwilling to take these supposed "risks." Unfortunately I'm afraid your claim there is just your opinion, and not worth "believing" :/

I have given my points and counterpoints, and I'm not debating this with you anymore. You have been uncivil with me with your blatant insults and whiny attitude, to put it in the kindest and most objective terms

I stand by my opinions that gaming is supposed to be an art, and that treating it as cheap entertainment would be like treating A Clockwork Orange like it were cheap pornography.

Edited December 8, 2010 by Lucent

[Esau of Isaac]

I'm sure there are those of you out there who've seen/heard/experienced this conversation:

A: You should play Chrono Trigger/Earthbound/FFVI/ insert classic RPG here.

B: No thanks!

A: But these are some of the greatest games of all time!

B: Not interested. Graphics suck!

A:

It's so easy to look down on these people, but you have to realize that much of the love that individuals have for these titles is largely based on reminiscence. I find it difficult to trudge through many older somewhat classic titles precisely because of presentation, despite the fact that I was there when this was all new. Imagine it from a much newer gamer's perspective; they're exposed to all these retro games, but they're presented in a fashionable and eye-catching manner. I to this day find it difficult to get several newcomers to even try playing Final Fantasy VII, even if they're a fan of JRPGs, because the character sprites are so terrible compared to newer titles' representations.

One's first reaction may be to shun folks like this, but try to understand what they have to go through in seriously attempting to suspend themselves in a world whose graphical representations were held to a much, much lower standard than they are today. Or something, saying it using standards sounds like they were pieces of shit when they came out. :V

1. Statistics. Sure, Black Ops is selling like manufactured bread...but you've yet to define what a "pesky casual gamer" is. A lot of them really do not care for graphics, as the sales of games like Plants vs Zombies has been rather large as of recent. This is not because of the fact that the game is pretty as much as it is fun.

Because it's completely character-driven. JRPGs --and perhaps most RPGs in general-- are most often character-driven, storyline-heavy titles. They require a strong suspension of disbelief to immerse oneself into the fictional world, moreso than most other games.

3. The highest selling games of all time are not graphically composed. Go to wikipedia and then look up the article on best selling games.

None of them are within the genre we are talking about either.

6. Half-Life is the highest selling FPS of all time. Look at its graphics, please.

Its graphics were terrific comparatively when it came out.

Your argument can never lose, because as long as we continue forward in a linear fashion assuming graphical capabilities only increase, every single game will eventually look poorly compared to a newer generation.

8. Take a look at Steam's sale page. Behind Black Ops lies Super Meat Boy in 4th place. The game is an incredibly brutal platformer which had only one animator and one programmer, made entirely in Flash.

How much does Super Meat Boy cost? What genre does it fit into?

9. Strongest point: The Wii has a Gamecube graphics card. It is the highest selling console on the market right now.

Its sales have also been dropping because of the fact that its success was built upon gimmicky motion control rather than a tight, solid gameplay lineup. It's interesting that you note that it's such a high-selling console, but then fail to mention that when it comes to multi-platform titles' sales, it tends to do the worst.

10. If you would be so kind to also take a look at GameFAQs and its most popular games right now, please.

You got it dude:

01 World of Warcraft PC

02 Gran Turismo 5 PS3

03 Call of Duty: Black Ops X360

04 Fallout: New Vegas X360

05 Golden Sun: Dark Dawn DS

06 Call of Duty: Black Ops PS3

07 AC: Brotherhood X360

08 AC: Brotherhood PS3

09 Starcraft II: WoL PC

10 Fallout: New Vegas PC

Final tally: 3 (PC), 3 (PS3), 3 (360), 1 (DS).

Of those games, I would say all of them except for Fallout and World of Warcraft concentrate strongly on graphical representation. Starcraft's arguable, perhaps.

Thank you for letting me dispel the myth that graphics were a focus.

Hahahaha

The graphics is the smallest issue right now. You're telling me jRPGs are declining due to a focus on graphics. I say that they are declining due to gameplay and story integration. You are ignoring the efforts of every company out there which sells jRPGs at a substantial rate with quality, which include Intelligent Systems, Nippon Ichi and Atlus. All three of these companies are receiving higher acclaim than most high end Square titles right now, and none of these companies focus on graphical standards at all. In fact, some of them even use the graphics to integrate further emotion and tie the story with the gameplay.

Hilariously, one of the three you're talking about is dissolving due to lack of sales. And yet Square-Enix, even when releasing a game such as FFXIII that practically every gaming rag on the planet reviewed poorly, seems to be making several million dollars. And while both Final Fantasy titles and Atlus titles tend to focus on interesting gameplay, what is that really big difference they have again? Oh yeah, they have fucking good graphics.

A lot of your points tend to fall under the following statements in a clear eye from my perspective:

-NO IT ISN'T YOU'RE WRONG (lack of proof to support backing evidence)

-Assumptions

-Disregarding valid points regardless of the context given based on your personal viewpoints and standards

-Making the "people are dumb" argument. When you come out of high school, you will notice very quickly that you are wrong. Very wrong.

"NO, YOU'RE A BIG DOODY HEAD!"

The "graphics are the issue" thing is a blatant myth. Metacritic? GameFAQs? They have a score rankings based on the opinions of the public, as smart or as dumb as they may seem. Black Ops probably sells well because it's a good game. Final Fantasy sells well because there were previously good games in the series and people wish to see what Square does. Sonic? People are still looking for the day of where he can be thrown back into the spotlight. What sells games is not graphics. What sells games is good marketing. Graphics are just one insignificant factor when putting into a game. Gameplay and story is the rest. The integration from you to the character is the true point behind video games as an art. People recognize this.

If graphics didn't matter then they would never have progressed a bit. They are invaluable in giving artists the capability to transmit to their target audience the thoughts and ideals they possess. Given that JRPGs are as previously stated a traditionally plot-driven genre of games, it goes without saying that with better graphical capabilities comes the greater ability to create deep, emotional worlds, characters, and atmosphere that would not otherwise be possible through technologically inferior means.

What sells games is any number of things. Pretending it all boils down to the simplest of things is childish. Not even gameplay is the universal deciding factor in putting together a successful game, no matter how often others will bellow otherwise. Each genre has its defining characteristics, and thus customers that are interested in said genre are often looking for different things. Few people commented "Hey, the Draw system in Final Fantasy VIII is totally why I was looking at the game," or "the heavy character-dynamics of Super Mario Bros. 3 was a strong deciding factor in my purchase of the game".

Also, brown gritty games are being sold because triple-A developers don't like taking risks. It's because most of these games cost millions of dollars to make, and it's better to make a mediocre game which sells a bit above profit than take a risk and either get in the gold or go bankrupt. Believe me, they would make a beautifully designed game like Shadow of the Colossus or Half Life with the innovation those two games had if they had the chance and stray away from this EVIL BAD FOCUS of which the two of you assume gaming is built upon these days.

It's funny that you cite Shadow of the Colossus which was completely dependent on its graphical depiction of the Colossi and the scenery that surrounded Wander and his trusty horse Agro, and then in the same same sentence attempt to pass off the game as having great innovation. If you think that game had the slightest in gameplay innovation you're out of your fucking mind. It was short, it was repetitive, and it was incredibly limited in every single way. The reason why it was fantastic was because the developers were capable of breathing life into the world by painting a lush picture with the graphical capabilities of the Playstation 2. The game would have fucking failed on the SNES, wouldn't it have?

Edited December 8, 2010 by Esau of Isaac

[IGdood]

Did anyone notice the female vs. male trend?

-retreats back into the audience-

[Kanami]

Kanami, tl;dr, but, I gotta agree on Lucent with one thing. IS, Nippon Ichi and Atlus DO NOT focus on graphical standards for games. If the graphical standard of things today are games like FF13 and CoD Black Ops, and SMG2, then games made by these companies don't stand up in the graphics department at all.

I mean, IS does Fire Emblem and Paper Mario, Nippon Ichi does Disgaea, and Atlus does Yggdra Union/Etrian Odyssey, and all those types of games. None of these have overly impressive graphics, so...

Key point to note is focusing on graphical "standards" opposed to focusing on "graphics." There is an obvious difference. And while the mentioned companies don't focus on making the flashiest game, graphics still is an integral part of the game. Compare Disgaea 3 or even 2, with older titles like Disgaea 1, Phantom Brave or La Pucelle. The graphical "standard" is improving, with the sprites becoming cleaner, more detailed and supposedly better looking overall. Esau's already made clear that graphical improvement is inevitable.

But claiming graphics to be irrelevant is just plain stupid. And I'm surprised that anyone could be so naive enough to think otherwise. Using your Fire Emblem hack, do graphics matter to you? Do you have a preference between the mugs you sprite now, and the mugs you spliced 2 years ago? Or do you not care? Your recent statement regarding quality control in ToS clearly indicates the former.

I don't know if you enjoy the Disgaea franchise, but assuming you find it decent, would your opinion change if the sprites were stick figures, the maps a flat grid chess board type field, and if the art looked like a 5 year old'd gone crazy with a crayon. Are you saying your opinion wouldn't change in the slightest? Cause that's what "irrelevant" means :/

Not having a standard would mean stray pixels, mis-shaped objects, and unclean animations. Something every game should avoid. As for comparisons? FF13, CoD, SMG2 are all focusing on a completely different department of graphics. "Good graphics" are not determined by what looks real. Games like Disgaea and Yggdra are intentionally drawn in their anime-ish fashion. And it's not because they're being stingy with their funds.

Summarizing, the graphics might not be what you consider stunning, and if you're arguing that they focus on their graphics less, then you have a point. But graphical standards are another matter completely.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As for the silly little kid Lucent, do you want me to comment on your stupid remarks or should I save myself the time and ignore it considering you've "maturely" withdrawn yourself from the argument?

Edited December 8, 2010 by Kanami

[Lucent]

Snip

I really like this counterpoint, a lot. To sum it down, (and clarify me if I'm wrong), it seems as if you're talking about graphical improvements over time and how there is a focus on certain games over others of which I have mentioned.

I will not deny that.

HOWEVER, what were the graphics used for? How were they implemented into the game? Were graphics the only focus? These are the questions that we have to answer before going "IT'S TEH GRAPHICS FAULT!" No, it's not the graphics's fault. It's the gameplay's fault. The graphics can be amazing like in FFXIII and FFXIV, but they were still panned weren't they?

I'm looking at it through the lense "gameplay was not focused on" as the crowd here is going "graphics was too much the main focus". Perhaps we're saying the same thing but in different wording. However, I think you guys are making too much of a deal out of the graphics issue.

Edited December 8, 2010 by Nightmare

[Dr. Tarrasque]

No more insulting or thread's closed. Your choice.

[Life]

Hi, hi, hi.

Let's get something straight here.

FFXIII was not panned because it concentrated solely on graphics and everything else stank. It was mostly panned because of a linear world (which is not synonymous with being terrible, just ask Riviera: The Promised Land) and because it had an all new battle system (one that I quite enjoyed, mind you). The story and characters weren't great but this is Square Enix we're talking about and if you ask me, they haven't done anything right since FFVI with the sole exception of FFIX (fucking fantastic game).