Mages: Why are they not so great in this game?

[I.M. Gei]

Not just looking in the tier list, but why is there a general sentiment that mages are mediocre in Radiant Dawn?

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Poor SPD cap and enemies having RES.

[Scarlet]

- Enemies suddenly have existant resistance.

- Tomes have crappy Mt compared to normal weapons.

- The playable mages in this game all either have crappy Spd, hampering their offense, or good Spd but almost non-existant availability to make use of it.

- Staves have lost a bit of value due to the enormous potency of vulneraries.

That's all I can think of right now.

[Anouleth]

Poor SPD cap and enemies having RES.

Nothing to do with speed cap. After all, there are plenty of characters that are high on the list despite having poor caps, like Haar, Titania, Gatrie and Sothe.

Mainly, it's just because of speed. Even if Sages all had a 35 speed cap, most of them barely hit their speed cap as it is. Soren has the lowest base speed of any combatant in the GMs and the lowest growth at 35%. Ilyana also has a low growth, at 30%. In addition, they struggle to 2HKO because enemies have so much resistance. Sages could get away with having low durability and movement in previous games because they had good offense, but they don't even have that in this game, so they stink.

[Bryan]

Also, the SS tomes only have 15 uses, while the SS weapons have 50.

Also, tomes weigh a ton (I still don't get why...) Which slows down the already slow magic users.

Even with max stats, they still suck. :/

[Junkhead]

The only tomes that might me a problem lifting up are siege tomes.

[Soren37]

Siege tomes are heavy. Everything else is manageable. By the time you get the next heaviest tomes (SS or or S), your mages should have enough STR to carry around without worry.

[Grithalmur]

It could be that they simply can't avoid as well as they could in the GBA games.

As far as I know, LUCK in RD does not contribute to avoid, it only lessens critical hit chances in this game, while in the GBA games every point of LUCK meant one more avoid.

The enemies are also a lot stronger in every way, while most enemies in past games didn't have SKILL above the mid teens until the very end and only if they were snipers/swordmasters/high hit people, all the enemies in RD have taken their multivitamins, especially on Hard/Maniac. (This is probably the biggest reason.)

A low HP cap also hurts, as even if you're a powerful mage, naturally low defenses and a forced lower health pool means that you will die in only a couple of hits, especially if you're screwed on speed, as mentioned before.

And finally, Biorhythm mixes things up. If enemies are at their Best, they will hit, a lot. Even more so if your guy is in Bad or Worst condition.

[Junkhead]

It could be that they simply can't avoid as well as they could in the GBA games.

As far as I know, LUCK in RD does not contribute to avoid, it only lessens critical hit chances in this game, while in the GBA games every point of LUCK meant one more avoid.

No. Luck does increase avoid here too. And no again, they don't suck because they can't avoid (Ike x Soren, anyone?), the reasons are mentioned above.

[whase]

I actually say mages are good in this game, but that's just my personal opinion.

they have (I think) highest resistance of all classes, which is useful in endgame.

their mastery skill heals themselves, which makes it possible to spill less turns on other healing ways.

opposed to paladins, who can also heal themselves with mastery, there are no 'effective' weapons against mages.

possibility to attack on a 3-10 range

awesome animations

staves

I know there are plenty bad points too, but the good points totally make up for that to me

[RNG Princess]

They also have poor defenses which gimps them even further in this game out of all of them Thunder magic got screwed the worst. Besides that they only get to be forged their base tomes, you can't forge an ellight or elfire like you can forge a steel/silver weapons which is really bad too and besides forging a tome is rather pricy.

Edited December 13, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Narga_Rocks]

No. Luck does increase avoid here too. And no again, they don't suck because they can't avoid (Ike x Soren, anyone?), the reasons are mentioned above.

His avoid is still not reliable enough as a result of getting 2HKOd by like everything. Particularly thanks to biorhythm sometimes being rude to him. Also there's the whole "I never double squat so why on earth would you have me anywhere near one of the best offensive units on the team and drawing enemies away from him on enemy phase" thing. But that's just common sense talking.

[Junkhead]

His avoid is still not reliable enough as a result of getting 2HKOd by like everything. Particularly thanks to biorhythm sometimes being rude to him. Also there's the whole "I never double squat so why on earth would you have me anywhere near one of the best offensive units on the team and drawing enemies away from him on enemy phase" thing. But that's just common sense talking.

Just saying. He thought it was because they had crappy Avo here, and I countered by stating a resolution to that.

I don't really see Mia being that great by Part 4 since 2-range is basically fundamental for Routing. I found that Soren, along with Ike were pretty much the best thing there is for routing since they 2HKO everything not Generals. And Mia's 2-range is awful unless she relies on weapons with crappy durability (A.K.A Tempest Blade) Of course, regarding the whole "Ike and Soren destroying maps" is just a conclusion I came up with when seeing them in my current playthrough. PEMN.

[Narga_Rocks]

How did Soren double anything? What was his spd?

Besides, there is a Tempest in 3-13 that doesn't serve any purpose that early, so let Mia have it for 4-1. You get another in 4-4. And you don't always need to use 1-2 range.

Soren is just bad. Sucks to raise, needs tons of exp to ever double anything. Probably a wing or two. He's generally taking one shot at each enemy since he struggles to double even Generals beyond 4-1 (and that's assuming you cap his tier 2 speed and give him a wing after crowning him). And he spends nearly his entire career getting 2HKOd by everything so even a 20% hit rate is bad (bio exists, so this is frequently 30% which is 18.3% true. Every time this happens he's got over a 3% chance of dying. 1 in ~30. Compare to the 1 in 1000 or ridiculous things like that which Mia faces with Ike)

[Anouleth]

How did Soren double anything? What was his spd?

Besides, there is a Tempest in 3-13 that doesn't serve any purpose that early, so let Mia have it for 4-1. You get another in 4-4. And you don't always need to use 1-2 range.

Soren is just bad. Sucks to raise, needs tons of exp to ever double anything. Probably a wing or two. He's generally taking one shot at each enemy since he struggles to double even Generals beyond 4-1 (and that's assuming you cap his tier 2 speed and give him a wing after crowning him). And he spends nearly his entire career getting 2HKOd by everything so even a 20% hit rate is bad (bio exists, so this is frequently 30% which is 18.3% true. Every time this happens he's got over a 3% chance of dying. 1 in ~30. Compare to the 1 in 1000 or ridiculous things like that which Mia faces with Ike)

Yeah, Soren is pretty unsalvageable. I remember using Soren in HM and him getting really speed blessed, and even sticking with him, he still sucked. Cruddy movement and bad speed. I even gave him Paragon and abused staves with him in tier 3 for more experience, but he still wasn't good in Part 4.

[RNG Princess]

what if you give wrath to a mage? Doesn't that make them instantly better?

[Anouleth]

what if you give wrath to a mage? Doesn't that make them instantly better?

Given that they can't survive at 30% health, not really. Narga is already complaining about Soren holding Ike back. If he can't even let Soren get attacked, he might as well be supporting Mist or Rhys.

[Junkhead]

How did Soren double anything? What was his spd?

Besides, there is a Tempest in 3-13 that doesn't serve any purpose that early, so let Mia have it for 4-1. You get another in 4-4. And you don't always need to use 1-2 range.

Soren is just bad. Sucks to raise, needs tons of exp to ever double anything. Probably a wing or two. He's generally taking one shot at each enemy since he struggles to double even Generals beyond 4-1 (and that's assuming you cap his tier 2 speed and give him a wing after crowning him). And he spends nearly his entire career getting 2HKOd by everything so even a 20% hit rate is bad (bio exists, so this is frequently 30% which is 18.3% true. Every time this happens he's got over a 3% chance of dying. 1 in ~30. Compare to the 1 in 1000 or ridiculous things like that which Mia faces with Ike)

29 AS was his start during 4-1. Of course, we know that does wonders once he hits his caps, up to 4-E-1. Hence the "PEMN". I pretty much helped his Spd by manipulating Blossom. And a Speedwings when he hit 3rd tier. I fixed his durability problems with Resolve, so that way even though he got down to Resolve activation each time he got hit, he would get back to the top with LolFlare. o3o He barely had a C support with Ike by 4-1, so I had to gave him Daunt to help his Avo some more. And at last, I got him to passable durability with an Angelic Robe. Along with that, a Dracoshield really helps.

I already knew that Mia was much more durable than him. But what makes me wonder is how is she better offensively? Her usual 2-range option would usually consist on Wind edges, unless you still have two Storm swords out there.

Edited December 14, 2010 by Flint Eastwood

[Interceptor]

Soren's situation is even worse than people are laying out here, since he has a chance to get instantly OHKO'ed by a crit at almost any point in his career, due to terrible crit avoid from low LCK. Anyone with crit from a skill (Halberdiers, Swordmasters, Snipers) or a Killer weapon will clean his clock.

[Junkhead]

That actually happened to me yesterday. I forgot to kill the Sniper with a Killer Bow. And the highest crit. he ever faced was 18-19, from SMs. Bit Hit comes before Critical, right? Which is why an A support with Ike, Daunt and Resolve all help together.

[dondon151]

The order doesn't matter when there's a significant chance of getting blicked on any attack.

[Junkhead]

4-4

Yeah...Soren died. This is what Narga, Dondon and Interceptor would warn me on ocassion- Soren died to a SM. He got critikilled by around turn 4.

I'm thinking Narga cursed me.

[Jaybee]

29 AS was his start during 4-1. Of course, we know that does wonders once he hits his caps, up to 4-E-1. Hence the "PEMN". I pretty much helped his Spd by manipulating Blossom. And a Speedwings when he hit 3rd tier. I fixed his durability problems with Resolve, so that way even though he got down to Resolve activation each time he got hit, he would get back to the top with LolFlare. o3o He barely had a C support with Ike by 4-1, so I had to gave him Daunt to help his Avo some more. And at last, I got him to passable durability with an Angelic Robe. Along with that, a Dracoshield really helps.

I already knew that Mia was much more durable than him. But what makes me wonder is how is she better offensively? Her usual 2-range option would usually consist on Wind edges, unless you still have two Storm swords out there.

So, you made Soren good with Blossom abuse, Resolve, an Ike support, Speedwing, Daunt AND a Seraph Robe?

Sounds pretty cool until you realise what the fuck you could have done with all that.

lolBlossom, Resolve works better on others, as if Soren's getting anywhere near that Ike support, lol@Soren getting the Speedwing, Daunt is stupid, Seraph Robe is possible though why you'd give it to him if all people, I don't know.

He's sounding pretty good right about...

ahahahahahahaha

[Junkhead]

So, you made Soren good with Blossom abuse, Resolve, an Ike support, Speedwing, Daunt AND a Seraph Robe?

Sounds pretty cool until you realise what the fuck you could have done with all that.

lolBlossom, Resolve works better on others, as if Soren's getting anywhere near that Ike support, lol@Soren getting the Speedwing, Daunt is stupid, Seraph Robe is possible though why you'd give it to him if all people, I don't know.

He's sounding pretty good right about...

ahahahahahahaha

Who said anything about abuse? And it's not like anyone else on my team needed a Seraph Robe or a Speedwings, lol.

And Resolve would work better on who, exactly? Are you even considering the circumstances of which I am speaking, or are you just assuming the ideal gameplay? And by the way, I have two Resolves. Two of which only Soren and Elincia needed to survive forever, since my other characters were already durability one-rounding beasts to even care. :o

Edited December 16, 2010 by Flint Eastwood

[Anouleth]

So, you made Soren good with Blossom abuse, Resolve, an Ike support, Speedwing, Daunt AND a Seraph Robe?

Sounds pretty cool until you realise what the fuck you could have done with all that.

lolBlossom, Resolve works better on others, as if Soren's getting anywhere near that Ike support, lol@Soren getting the Speedwing, Daunt is stupid, Seraph Robe is possible though why you'd give it to him if all people, I don't know.

He's sounding pretty good right about...

ahahahahahahaha

You forgot the Dracoshield.

(and keep in mind that Soren also died in 4-4 despite the masses of resources poured into him)

Edited December 16, 2010 by Mr. Know-it-all-Anouleth