Drafting Tournaments Explained

[PKL]

Lol my excuse is that I had just woken up and was posting from my phone. It doesnt make sense to me either now >_>.

I dont even know what my point was tbh. Failure.

[Ciarre]

I've never played FE12, but why don't you just allow rescue on certain characters, like Midia, in a certain chapter?

[Integrity]

I've never played FE12, but why don't you just allow rescue on certain characters, like Midia, in a certain chapter?

Initially (long ago) I was against that because I didn't want a long list of exceptions. Now it seems like it's going to be long if we don't just have exceptions and I only know of roughly twice Rescue is actually necessary for shit like that.

[PKL]

@PKL:

Look, dude, convoluted or non-convoluted I don't really give that much of a fuck. The thing is, though, I'd rather have simplicity where I can have it and none of you have given me a good reason not to have a blanket ban on that shit. The closest anybody has ever come is "well then midia would die every time". Nobody has made a convincing argument for the staves being free besides "it's necessary for the lowest turns".

For the record, I don't really like the FE9 BEXP limits but without them FE9 drafting is a horrible snarly mess smashed open by Marcia's existence.

EDIT: Also logged things.

Well. Midia will cost everyone a penalty except the one who drafted her without rescue and warp. And theres also the issue of some unit's survival in certain chapters. Like Feena and Navarre in harder difficulties. Rescue also helps with chapter 9 and its stupid sidetracking to the village to get Minerva. Same with chapter 14 (gotta talk to Gotoh to make the Starsphere and get the Lightsphere), chapter 18 (getting the Lifetsphere which is on the other side of the map) and chapter 21 (getting the Starlight from Michalis which is on the other side of the map too). And its not like its broken. Everyone can use it unlike Warp. It's an E level staff that ANY unit reclassed to cleric can use. Dont ban what isnt broken. Just ban rescue chains. And without rescue, some units are even worse and will not get recruited no matter what. Bantu costs no turns to recruit with rescue despite Marth having to sidetrack to the village. Same with Castor and a few others. Just pay attention to those who have actually drafted FE12 and know what they are talking about. :/ I know Wen Yang agreed that rescue should only be limited last time we talked. Sal agrees that rescue chains only should be limited and I do too. Dont know what Horace thinks, but hes also one who drafted FE12 often (even though he doesnt like the game lol).

Edited April 1, 2012 by General Haarace

[Integrity]

Well. Midia will cost everyone a penalty except the one who drafted her without rescue and warp. And theres also the issue of some unit's survival in certain chapters. Like Feena and Navarre in harder difficulties. Rescue also helps with chapter 9 and its stupid sidetracking to the village to get Minerva. Same with chapter 14 (gotta talk to Gotoh to make the Starsphere and get the Lightsphere), chapter 18 (getting the Lifetsphere which is on the other side of the map) and chapter 21 (getting the Starlight from Michalis which is on the other side of the map too). And its not like its broken. Everyone can use it unlike Warp. It's an E level staff that ANY unit reclassed to cleric can use. Dont ban what isnt broken. Just ban rescue chains. And without rescue, some units are even worse and will not get recruited no matter what. Bantu costs no turns to recruit with rescue despite Marth having to sidetrack to the village. Same with Castor and a few others. Just pay attention to those who have actually drafted FE12 and know what they are talking about. :/ I know Wen Yang agreed that rescue should only be limited last time we talked. Sal agrees that rescue chains only should be limited and I do too. Dont know what Horace thinks, but hes also one who drafted FE12 often (even though he doesnt like the game lol).

First up, I would probably listen to "those who have actually drafted FE12" if you guys didn't all always act like smug assholes about it. "Just remember, Integ, I've drafted FE12 and you haven't - this makes me right :smug:" I don't usually just say that you're wrong, I've said for months now (no shit, seriously) that I want to understand and I always get patronizing bullshit for it.

I've already ceded the point on Midia. You've made me understand (granted, I had to look the map up myself before this post) that it's a necessity for her.

Now here's the thing on the rest of that shit - it seems to essentially boil down to A: convenience or B: "that's the way we do it." What is the absolute minimum necessary use of Rescue?

And I'm sorry about your last point, but KJ and Sal are not exactly two people whose opinions I respect overmuch.

[Naglfar]

Int, bro, update SFDTTHQ. :(

[Integrity]

Int, bro, update SFDTTHQ. :(

I don't update SFDTTHQ anymore, I just update the logs.

[Ciarre]

Finished the FE10 SOYO draft #30665 in 244 turns.

[Vicious Sal]

Meh the post i made had all the points where rescue might actually have to be used as rescue, instead of transporting marth from the back of the map to the front. Sadly my ipad wasnt nice, and i have work coming up so no wifi for four days.

The two adjustments is would have liked to see in the gr were:

No rescue chains

No hammerne on rescue

Ill keep playing by those rules if i open a draft, tsnot that the gr is a law, most drafts have adjustments anyway. :p if someone could bring order in my post on the previous page, much appreciated, that is the last i will have to say about it because we keep reaching an impasse anyway.

Oh, yeah, refa said something about how simplistic these games were, my reaction was that banning rescue would remove one of the few complexities this game has, pkl probly can word it better. He was in the chat as well at the time.

[Konnor97]

FE9 Draft by myself is a go-go #31207

Teams:

1. Tycho: Marcia, Soren, Nephenee, Astrid, Gatrie, Devdan, Calill, Ena

2. PKL: Jill, Tormod, Mia, Mist, Shinon, Sothe, Geoffrey, Lucia

3. Serious Bananas: Oscar, Tanith, Makalov, Ilyana, Muarim, Elincia, Haar, Bastian

4. *Konnor97: Kieran, Mordecai, Volke, Zihark, Janaff, Rolf, Tauroneo, Largo

5. Shota Sigurd: Boyd, Reyson, Rhys, Lethe, Stefan, Ulki, Brom, Ranulf

[Ciarre]

Finished the FE10 RNG-Based Draft Full of Quintessence #31027 in 197 turns.

Ugh, finally I can finish up Tellius Draft #3 now. No more FE10 drafts for me |:<

[Integrity]

Logged, logged, and logged.

Meh the post i made had all the points where rescue might actually have to be used as rescue, instead of transporting marth from the back of the map to the front. Sadly my ipad wasnt nice, and i have work coming up so no wifi for four days.

The two adjustments is would have liked to see in the gr were:

No rescue chains

No hammerne on rescue

Ill keep playing by those rules if i open a draft, tsnot that the gr is a law, most drafts have adjustments anyway. :p if someone could bring order in my post on the previous page, much appreciated, that is the last i will have to say about it because we keep reaching an impasse anyway.

Oh, yeah, refa said something about how simplistic these games were, my reaction was that banning rescue would remove one of the few complexities this game has, pkl probly can word it better. He was in the chat as well at the time.

Look, dude, again, you're not telling me why Rescue is even necessary beyond Rescuing Midia once in one chapter - all you're saying is "you're not paying attention integrity i'm right". Why don't we just have no using Rescue (except for Midia in C20) and no Warping Marth?

[PKL]

Finished the FE11 Infantry Draft hosted by the spanish inquisition in 150 turns.

[Sunwoo]

I don't think anyone ever reported this draft.

FE7 HNM: A Brand New Style of Draft! #31227

1. Boron: Florina, Erk, Guy, Rath, Farina, Wil, Nino, Karel, Renault

2. HongLei: Sain, Priscilla, Heath, Oswin, Isadora, Bartre+Karla, Hawkeye, Jaffar, Harken

3. Baldrick: Lowen, Fiora, Pent, Eliwood, Canas, Matthew, Rebecca, Louise, Vaida

4. Konnor97: Kent, Legault, Raven, Lucius, Lyn, Dart, Dorcas, Serra, Geitz+Wallace

I'm finished, but I need to wait for everyone else to be done before I can give you a score.

Knight_of_Titania hosted but didn't participate

Edited April 2, 2012 by Boron

[Ciarre]

Oops, I messed up with my turns for the FE10 RNG-Based Draft Full of Quintessence #31027. It should be 206, I missed a chapter and a penalty.

Oh and I also messed up the FE10 SOYO draft #30665 turncount by a turn, it should be 243.

lots of derps today

Edited April 2, 2012 by CR-S01

[Sunwoo]

Integrity, started an FE7 draft.

[FE7] Semi-SOYO Draft #31555

Teams

zeldamaster: Fiora, Dorcas, Legault, Priscilla, Isadora, Serra

Boron: Rebecca, Rath, Jaffar, Erk, Louise, Raven

Refa: Wil, Florina, Nino, Pent, Bartre+Karla, Oswin

General Horace: Karel, Lowen, Renault, Sain, Farina, Canas

The Joker: Geitz/Wallace, Kent, Heath, Guy, Harken, Hawkeye

[Vicious Sal]

1333313598[/url]' post='1919996']

Logged, logged, and logged.

Look, dude, again, you're not telling me why Rescue is even necessary beyond Rescuing Midia once in one chapter - all you're saying is "you're not paying attention integrity i'm right". Why don't we just have no using Rescue (except for Midia in C20) and no Warping Marth?

I did, except that it was that messed up post where my ipad removed all enters, also, where in that entire post did i say i was right, i said my post from the last page was my most detailed one, putting on a row where rescue had actual use as rescue, not as turnsaving. So me not telling you, i dont think so. You could have read a bit and noticed that my big messed up post (which i am not apologizing for again, once is enough) has an analasys where rescue isnt used to transport marth, but to save characters thir arses, because midia isnt the freaking only one.

Dont go and shove all the blame and arrogance on me damnit, i tried to explain it as well as i could, gave examples, and you didnt read them, thats not my fault, dont go blaming me that im claiming to be right, because i stated that we kept reaching an impasse, and that is because you didnt read my freaking long explanation, after you have read that, if you still disagree, go ahead and change the rules because those were, as i have already stated, my best and last arguments. Deal?

I see you dont really put value to my or kopf arguments or statements, you dont even read them. Thanks

[Integrity]

Logged, logged, and fixed.

@Sal: Okay, ignoring the fact that you ignored my suggestion (in a post about how I ignore your posts, oddly), let's pull your thing apart. I did read it, for the record, despite the fact that it remained in its horrible state. And just so we're clear, I'm going to try to make a judgment based entire on *that* post since I do think I was too harsh on you.

You get rescue in ch 4, most of its use is to save turns, but there are a couple of moments where it is used as what it was actually meant for.

Good lead-in.

And ofc, the staff is neat if you positioned someone wrong.

Sure, okay, all ten (?) charges of it.

It is level e, so noone can say they cant use it and are at a disadvantage.

Yep, alright, fair.

Its a fair gameplay element and everyone can use it equally, how they use it makes the difference.

Except for when it's broken, that sounds like, well, everything else.

Ch 7 has feena and navarre surrounded by bandits, especially on harder modes, you have to rescue feena at least, h1 is lenient, but it is a much safer option.

Okay, starting here I'm consulting maps. Frankly, without playing I can't see whether or not they'll die (do the thieves just up and run away with their treasure? can navarre 1rko them?) but I'll take your word for it. It seems that they're boned without Rescue on H3 (presuming navarre can't reliably 1rko the hunter and the thieves don't run), so okay.

Chapter 8 is a sandwich fest, heroes, paladins and generals, easy mispositioning happens, the enemies are quite tough.

I can sorta see it, sure. Why not.

Especially when astram starts hunting you, for ltc its a non issue, but not everyone plays drafts to the extreme, there are inexperienced players.

Am I supposed to parse this line as anything but "as long as you're not playing ltc it's an issue"? The point of (most) drafts is, uh, LTC.

Fe12 doesnt really reward you for turtling.

See above.

Ch 10 has merric in a bunch of enemies, he is likely to die, there is one spot he doesnt die easily, but it requires him to crit something or w/e.

It looks like he's not in too bad a way if you're not on H3, but again that depends on how the enemies move. Maybe everything automatically aggros him or osmethne.

its easier to just recue him, instead of having to restart because he died.

Out of curiosity, why isn't undrafted meatshielding allowed in FE12?

Ch 11 is the desert, and mages are so much faster here blahblah.

Convenience isn't really a good argument, even though you've had solid points before.

Ch 12 has 12 move flying swordmasters and fire dragons coming at you while you are stuck on a three tile wide bridge.

Looks like fun.

Shit happens, shit happens shit happens.

I'm not sure why I gave this sentence its own quote, I just liked it.

Ch 14 enters warp, which i didnt even bring up at first.

I know. I did.

So /careCh 16 has an extra rescue staff, thief staff helps, even if warp is banned.

Okay, so it *is* ten uses. Yay.

Ch 20 has midia. She will die turn 1 otherwise.

I can see that easily.

From here on, its enter wyverns, meteor, swarm and glower, shit is really shit and units are likely to die if there is something on the map that 2hko's almost everything you have.

I fail to see how your remaining ~4 uses of Rescue really helps with this.

What do those sorcs do, 28 damage?

idk lol

Hammerne is useful, and only breaks the game in combination with rescue, any other staff is not possible of recreating that potential.

Hammerne and malliesia cost turns to get, use on the again staff makes them break even, hammerne on a nosferatu tome for example is on high demand.

That's fair, I don't think I ever even mentioned banning Hammerne. If I did, well, that was stupid of me.

Since did i mention 28 mag luna effect sorcs, well. Without he crit? But still, 28 damage enemies, on all your units.

Not really seeing how your ~4 uses of Rescue or Hammerne are really helping with that (unless that's what Nosferatu was meant to illustrate?) but okay.

There are loads of chapters Where it is usefull because marth has to go to the other side of he map first.

What chapters? And if everybody has to truck Marth over to the other side of the map first, Rescue on him is unnecessary because *everybody* has to truck him back too.

It is an aspect of the game that is open for all players, and it is the skill of the player that determines the potential.

Yeah, no shit. That's everything.

Otherwise it will like pkl said become fe11 again, where its same old same old same old all the time.

As Dr. Balcerzak said, FE11 is all the same old same old because everybody plays it in freaking Kiddie Mode, where Marth just GOES UP the whole time.

Its an aspect that creates diversity in a game, and everyone can use it, reclassing anything to cleric makes rescue possiblle.

Yep, understood.

Otherwise i can host an fe12 draft without use of rescue, warp and hammerne. See what people think.

Take Hammerne out of the equation and put in the absolute minimum Rescuing (as I recall: Midia, Merric, perhaps Feena/Navarre?) and I would absolutely love it if you did that. That's the perfect solution to all this bickering.

Might i ask, why isnt warp banned in the gba games? Saleh creates a wave of one and two turns once he starts warping right? Pent is always considered awesome. Idk since i hardly play those games, just wondering.

Warp was banned in FE6 because everything was Seize, same as FE11. FE7, the Warp staff doesn't come until Chapter 29, when there are precisely 6 chapters left in the game. FE8 we've actually toyed with banning Warp but the thing sorta stands in for Bootsed fliers, since there aren't really enough of those to go around. Those one- and two-turns that Saleh makes with Warp would be two- and three-turns with Vanessa/Cormag anyway, so it evens the gap a little bit for the sods without fliers.

CLOSING REMARKS:

The post was more helpful than I gave it credit for, but I had to do a *lot* of digging. So:

I want you to go ahead and get the whole crew together and do an FE12 draft with the things you proposed. Otherwise, tell me the problems with these:

No Rescue on Marth ever, Rescue on anybody else fine. Warping banned. No Hammerneing Rescue.

Rescue on everybody, Warping purely banned. No Hammerneing Rescue.

Also, if you could get me a vague sketch of what chapters Marth "has" to go all the way to the other side of the map and for what context (recruitment? only for a drafted unit? etc) and we might even get this squared away.

[Quintessence]

Integ,

Cleared The First FE10 SOYO Draft #30665 in 217 turns

EDIT: LOL same TC of the last draft I cleared lulz

Edited April 2, 2012 by Quintessence

[PKL]

Hey Integrity. I wanted to ask you some things about FE9 GRs: In FE9, why dont we make an exception to the undrafted shoving in chapter 13? Astrid really sucks at surviving the chapter. Its kinda unfair for those who draft her if they didnt get marcia/jill. The only way Ive saved her before is either by shoving ike or with marcia/jill + titania. Its literally impossible for her to survive without getting really lucky dodges or the above. Also, meatshielding free in chapter 3? Its a chore in itself to defend undrafted units there. Also, reyson not being free is meant to balance the fliers a bit right?

[Integrity]

@Quin: Logged.

@PKL: I've honestly never had much trouble making Astrid survive C13. Anyway, the list of people who can Shove Ike that you can have at that point is Boyd, Rhys, Lethe, Mordecai (x2), Volke, Neph, Brom, Zihark. That's eight dudes, so chances are the one with Astrid's gonna have Marcia/Jill/three of the above. If they don't, well, they kinda fucked themselves, eh? I don't see a point to it. As for meatshielding in C3, I've never had enough of an issue to merit having a special exception for it. /shrug

EDIT: Reyson isn't free because the ruleset was made back when dancers generally weren't free. Nobody made an argument for making him free, so he's remained draftable. I think it's better that way anyway, for reasons like you outlined. FE9's already a shitfest without guaranteed Marcia+Reyson.

Edited April 3, 2012 by Integrity

[PKL]

Well, i dont actually have trouble protecting gatrie and shinon anymore but I remember having a bit of trouble in my first FE9 draft. I agree its not neccesary but it would make it a lot easier and less frustrating to new drafters. About C13, ive never actually had much trouble with astrid surviving (except that one time the soldier in front of her got crit and the myrm had his way with her), but thats all because i always get the OP fliers in FE9 drafts -_-. How many shoves does Ike need to reach Astrid? Unrelated: put hard 1 or higher in Fe11 GR's difficulty so ppl stop doing NM drafts! xD

[Integrity]

Ike needs three squares of Shove to get to Astrid on turn 1. That's any three of the ones I listed (and some aren't very early priorities for people, you can snag them after Astrid) or any one plus Mordecai.

[Ciarre]

I don't think the chapter 3 rule would be necessary because all you have to do is have Gatrie rescue Shinon and have him move up.

If anything, you could make Mordy free to smite once in chapter 13. With one smite, Titania can kill the the myrm that ORKOs Astrid. It doesn't devalue Mordy that much.

[Paperblade]

I like how people both want overly convoluted rulesets that will make new players not want to sign up for drafts while also wanting rule changes under the pretext of "It will help bad players if they fuck up"