FE7 HHM Unranked Tier List v4

[-Cynthia-]

6 Lowen: 28.4 HP, 8.8 Str, 6.8 Skl, 8.8 Spd, 5 Lck, 8.6 Def, 1.2 Res

7 Kent: 25.1 HP, 8.4 Str, 9 Skl, 9.7 Spd, 3.2 Lck, 6.25 Def, 2.25 Res

Sure Kent doubles, but he can't actually ORKO a lot of things (I believe he gets steel archers if he equips a steel sword, and that's if they have the lowest 4 Def and 24 HP). Lowen blasts him durably. This is ignoring that I am probably sandbagging Lowen too.

I don't think you're sandbagging Lowen at all here. In my most recent HHM playthrough, I only have Lowen at level 10 starting 19x, and he's one of the highest leveled team members (Oswin is 13, Hector 12, next is Raven at 8 besides Marcus). The thing is when playing HHM efficiently Marcus just takes so many kills for the first half of the game it makes it difficult for other units to get kills, especially since Lowen doesn't ORKO many enemies.

Now, hte above post also compares 14/2 Kent to Sain, and the results are noticeably weaker, so it's far harder to argue that power out of Sain's hands. If that is the case, then I think Kent's gotta actually deal with Lowen early on.

Hmm, with the Energy Ring, a 13/2 Kent's only 2 Str less than Sain, and has 2 more Spd (14 vs. 12), allowing him to double enemy types like nomads Sain will probably miss out on. Kent has to take the Ring away from Florina though, so I dunno.

Edited July 16, 2011 by -Cynthia-

[Anouleth]

Doesn't it take turns to have Kent go to the Energy Ring village, or is that not an issue?

[Radiant Dragon]

Doesn't it take turns to have Kent go to the Energy Ring village, or is that not an issue?

Since this list is mostly about HHM, I think taking an extra turn or two in Lyn Mode to save turns in HHM should not be a big deal.

Edited July 16, 2011 by Radiant Kitty

[Maou]

Since this list is mostly about HHM, I think taking an extra turn or two in Lyn Mode to save turns in HHM should not be a big deal.

Would it save turns in HHM?

[grandjackal]

Would it save turns in HHM?

Considering Sain doesn't need the ring to do essentially the same thing, no it does not.

[Radiant Dragon]

Considering Sain doesn't need the ring to do essentially the same thing, no it does not.

Anything else we want to assume while we're making this a Maximum Efficiency list?

[Janissary]

Anything else we want to assume while we're making this a Maximum Efficiency list?

That this list is being run in a totalitarian manner.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

I already said in that post that giving Kent the energy ring AND the crest is bad for 2 reasons. First, it doubles (or more) the number of turns it takes to complete Chapter 10, and it also means that Kent is negatively impacting multiple units just to replicate the utility of a superior unit. On top of that, it doesn't even begin to bridge the STR gap between him and Sain at that level, and said Strength gap just continues to grow as the game goes on. I did a very in-depth coverage of why Kent is not considered as a recipient of the Knight Crest in this post, which I feel addresses most of the major concerns around Sain vs. Kent.

EDIT: Oh, and Kent also has a much harder time killing Lundgren, so that might also cause some problems.

Anything else we want to assume while we're making this a Maximum Efficiency list?

Considering it costs 4+ turns and the performance of another character (Florina/Lyn/Erk) to turn Kent into an inferior Sain, I'd say giving Kent the Energy Ring isn't very efficient at all. This isn't assuming "max efficiency", it's assuming a decent sense of efficiency trumps favoritism for Kent.

That this list is being run in a totalitarian manner.

Now that's just uncalled for.

Edited July 16, 2011 by Seven Deadly Sins

[Dark Sage]

Late to the party but....

Cynthia, I think you're underestimating just how awful Isadora's duability is. Her durability is barely better than base Guy, who came in Chapter 13. Sure, she has great move, but her durability sucks so bad, that she can't make full use of it and without the Body Ring, she's weighed down by nearly any good weapon. Hell, even with it, she only has 8 con, which sucks pretty badly.

[-Cynthia-]

Late to the party but....

Cynthia, I think you're underestimating just how awful Isadora's duability is. Her durability is barely better than base Guy, who came in Chapter 13. Sure, she has great move, but her durability sucks so bad, that she can't make full use of it and without the Body Ring, she's weighed down by nearly any good weapon. Hell, even with it, she only has 8 con, which sucks pretty badly.

Being weighed down is somewhat irrelevant when Isadora can double enemies regardless. 16 AS means she can be weighed down by 5 and still double a large number of enemies (as we can see with the Hawkeye comparisons against enemies). Having higher base AS + lower Con also means she can switch to lower Wt weapons when necessary to secure ORKOs (Mercs with an Iron Lance after a level or two for example).

Base Isadora has 3 HP, 2 Def, 5 Res over base Guy. 15/1 Kent has 6 HP, 2 Def, -1 to 0 Res over base Isadora. If Isadora is barely beating a base Guy in durability, then a promoted Kent is barely beating her as well, which was the point here. If Isadora's durability is considered so bad that she can't make use of it, then Kent and Sain aren't much better off (compared to Kent, Sain has 1 more Def, but about 2 less HP and 1 to 2 less Res).

[Life]

Base Isadora has 3 HP, 2 Def, 5 Res over base Guy. 15/1 Kent has 6 HP, 2 Def, -1 to 0 Res over base Isadora. If Isadora is barely beating a base Guy in durability, then a promoted Kent is barely beating her as well, which was the point here. If Isadora's durability is considered so bad that she can't make use of it, then Kent and Sain aren't much better off (compared to Kent, Sain has 1 more Def, but about 2 less HP and 1 to 2 less Res).

Base Guy arrives in Chapter 13. Base Isadora arrives in Chapter 22. See the problem?

Oh and that 15/1 Kent exists long before Isadora arrives. Like probably chapter 19x or 20.

Edited July 20, 2011 by Kitty Admiral

[dondon151]

From my personal experiences, Isadora's durability is hardly ever an issue.

[-Cynthia-]

Oh and that 15/1 Kent exists long before Isadora arrives. Like probably chapter 19x or 20.

I doubt this is the case, especially if we're doing things like giving Sain all the LHM bosskills. Even if Kent came out of Lyn Mode at level 10 (generous), he'd have have to gain 5 levels in 16, 17, 17x, 18, and 19. He has a good chance of not even being deployed in 17x due to limited deployment slots, and 18 is two turned with little chance for him getting exp.

I think people's comparisons with the other cavaliers and Isadora may be inflating levels for the other cavaliers. For example, my Lowen was 12/1 at the start of Chapter 22...with only B Lances and C Swords (and I deployed him every map and tried to give him kills). When playing efficiently it's often difficult for many characters to get levels because Marcus takes such a large portion of the kills.

Concurring with dondon about her durability.

Edited July 20, 2011 by -Cynthia-

[Balcerzak]

My Sain in my draft run was only level 16 at the very end of Ch22, and that was with only Bartre, Dart, Hector, Marcus, Matthew for real kill competition at that point as far as I remember.

Just for reference.

[chococoke]

Isadora had a little trouble surviving in my HHM draft run oh so long ago. Her HP is just incredibly low, and her defenses in general really are nothing to write home about. Perhaps if she ate her own Angelic Robe, but surely there are better units to use it on.

[dondon151]

I seriously doubt that last part. I don't generally find defensive stat boosters to be really significant except in 2 circumstances: going from ORKO to 2RKO, and going from something like 6RKO to 8RKO.

[-Cynthia-]

Hmm, after doing a quick LHM run I think even a level 10 Kent coming out of LHM is rather generous, assuming we are doing the Sain early promotion strategy. Here are my ending levels for reference:

Sain 13/2

Lyn 4.55

Kent 7.45

Lucius 6.18

Rath 7.75

Matthew 2.46

Wil 2.92

Dorcas 4.3

Erk 2.35

Florina 6.02

Wallace did not see combat and Serra and Nils's levels aren't relevant for this purpose (like 1.66 and 1.92 though I could have gotten more with them). There just aren't that many enemies in LHM to gain Exp from. I was not even going at ultra maximum speed, only left enemies alive on a couple of maps.

[Janissary]

I seriously doubt that last part. I don't generally find defensive stat boosters to be really significant except in 2 circumstances: going from ORKO to 2RKO, and going from something like 6RKO to 8RKO.

Ninian can pretty much write her name on the angelic robe in my experience. IRRC, it lets her survive some bolting/purge hits, which is really nice.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Okay, so I've made the following changes to the tier list (from the top down). One may come as a surprise, feel free to argue for or against it, but I think it's somewhat needed.

1: Priscilla above Kent. Kent's combat is okay at best without the LHM Energy Ring (which isn't assured for him in the least) and Priscilla is not only one of two earlygame Staff users (which is very important) but in a game where the mount bloc is as strong as it is, it's very important to be able to keep up with them, which Priscilla can.

2: Raven down to below Ninils.

3: Florina and Lowen swapped places.

4: Canas moved below the Isadora-Heath-Fiora bloc.

5: Lyn moved up to immediately below Guy.

6: Dorcas down to top of Middle, Bartre down to top of Lower Middle.

Discuss if you wish.

[-Cynthia-]

I don't mind Florina moving up to Top, but does she really deserve to be two tiers above Fiora/Heath? I see Florina doing two important things compared to the other fliers:

1. Dropping Marcus/Hector over the mountains in 16.

2. Flying over and talking to Fargus in 17x

She's pretty meh in C17 and she doesn't help to clear 18 any faster. Let's compare Florina to Fiora in C19. I think level 8 Florina is reasonable, level 6 in LHM, 2 levels in 16-18 (Florina spends a lot of time Rescuing and not much time in combat)

8 Florina

21 HP 8 Str 10.5 Skl 13 Spd 5 Def 6.45 Res

7 Fiora

21 HP 8 Str 11 Skl 13 Spd 6 Def 7 Res

Fiora is slightly better statistically until stat boosters come into play. Florina does have the possibility of using the Angelic Robe or the Energy Ring to gain leads in these categories, which is a point in her favor, but these can be used on other units for similar effects.

Heath ends up with better states in HP/Str/Def than either pegasus, though has some doubling issues before promotion and not very good Res (and misses out on 19x utility compared to Fiora). Basically, if flying utility is so useful (which I agree it is for many maps) than Fiora/Heath should probably be at the bottom of High, since the three fliers are largely interchangeable when they join IMO. You could also view it as flying utility being better than having adequate foot combat (Geitz), which I could do a chapter by chapter comparison for if desired.

[frat_tastic]

Agreed that a 2 tier gap between Florina and Fiora/Heath is too big a gap. I'd say offhand, without really looking into it too much, that they should be at the bottom of high. I feel like given their availabilty, we still have enough chapters that their flight is more useful than being an instantly good combat unit (Harken, Hawkeye).

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Throwing this out there...

Sain deserves to be a tier above the rest of the cast. He's just so good when he shows up and nobody really ever catches up to him that he deserves to be in that tier. The problem? Marcus is Sain... but he's been super clutch for 7 chapters on top of Sain's availability, and is about equivalent to Sain for the rest of the game. Thus, he needs to also be a tier above. Therefore, I propose the following:

Sain gets moved up to a tier between Jesus on Wheels and Top, putting Marcus 2 tiers above the rest of the cast. This is pretty much accurate to the game, and a logical move in my opinion.

Also, I'll consider the gap between the fliers. The availability gap and access to stat boosters really works in Florina's favor, especially considering how integral she is to fast clears of Noble Lady and Port of Badon, and she's effective in Pirate Ship as well. It's a weird situation where 2 tiers seems harsh, but Florina doesn't deserve any lower and Fiora/Heath don't deserve any higher.

[Anouleth]

Does Fiora really not deserve any higher? Surely her flight utility would be more desirable than Erk's combat/availability/staff leads?

[-Cynthia-]

How is Florina "effective" in Pirate Ship? I don't see any way she leads to a faster or less risky clear.

I don't really think Sain should be a tier higher. He's a good combatant, but the magnitude of difference isn't that high. Comparing an early promoted Sain to an early promoted Kent of the same level, Sain does have ~4 Str in difference, but Kent's 2 Spd lead is significant as well.

While most enemies do fall in the 7 AS and under range for the chapters around C16, faster enemy types (Mercenaries, Nomads, and obviously Myrms), will often be at 8-9 AS. This allows Kent to score some ORKOs that Sain misses (Sain can ORKO some of these enemies with a Steel Lance, but obviously Kent beign able to kill Nomads on the counter is better). Sain also ORKOs at times where Kent misses (namely Knights and wyverns, though non steel lance wyverns may have too much AS), but when early promoted both can ORKO many common enemy types anyway (archers, peg knights etc.)

Sain's AS issues make him a poor choice for some later chapters, in 23x for example, most of the promoted enemies inside the seal have 10-11 AS. This means Sain would have to be 12/8 to 12/10 or so to reliably double these enemies- a level overestimate for this stage in the game. Kent only needs to be 12/2 to 12/4, Isadora doubles them at base etc.

[Dark Sage]

Sain being at 12/10 by Genesis is not an unlikely proposition. In fact, in my HHM playthrough, that's exactly the level Sain's at (with B in axes to boot).

Yeah I mostly rely on Marcus and Sain to do all the heavy lifting. What of it?