Return of the Emblem: Chat

[GoD]

I don't like sand ... It's coarse and rough and irritating and it gets everywhere.

Then you probably don't appreciate sand. XD.

I'm only joking.

Hey here's a talk topic: Clouds. They are fluffy and white. They make different shapes. I also like clouds. :)

[roymbrog]

My two cents on the whole Gytha thing:

Having a character do stupid things is completely fine as long as you can admit they're stupid things. Gytha running off into the desert with no supplies or directions is stupid. A lot of people would've dropped the subject if you weren't consistently claiming that it was an acceptable mode of action.

Example: When Synthia yells at random people for seemingly no reason, I have no trouble saying she's acting petty and immature. IC, sure, but I realize it's a stupid thing to do.

Example 2: When Robin blames people for things they didn't actually do, Snowy claims that Robin is justified in her actions. IC, sure, but he doesn't realize/acknowledge that Robin is being petty and unreasonable. This is why Synthia's pettiness is tolerated more than Robin's.

Now wind back to Gytha. Gytha tries to run into the desert to help her friend, even though she'll most likely die. (There could be a random encounter, like you said, but that's OoC knowledge. Gytha doesn't know there's anyone out there to save her.) You could argue that she doesn't know what the desert is like, but she just spent two days out there in the heat. She should know it's hot and there's no water, at the very least. She doesn't know where Amon is. She has no supplies.

Now, charging off after a friend no matter the risk to herself is IC of Gytha, obviously. The problem is the RPer justifying it as a smart move. This is why people are upset. Gytha doing crazy things is alright, as long as those things are acknowledged as crazy.

And yeah, my opinion is not fact, but based on previous conversations about this issue I think this is the gist of what the problem is here. It's very similar to when Snowy refuses to heed context.

EDIT: There is another issue that sort of stems off this one. You have to be willing to have your characters take the consequences of their actions. If Gytha goes out into the desert alone, you need to be ok with the possibility of her dying. Otherwise, come up with circumstances where she can't go(like Phee did).

Edited February 14, 2012 by roymbrog

[Mercakete]

I see your point, Roy, though please understand that I am of the opinion that Gytha's actions aren't "stupid." They aren't well thought out, certainly, but I still view them as noble. I'm not trying to justify it. The argument was about what could or could not happen in the Rexia Desert and so that was what I was talking about at the time. If you want to know what I think about Gytha's choices, here's my opinion: Gytha acted very zealously. I, myself, think that's a good thing since it showcases unyielding loyalty. It's certainly not the best thing for her health, but I still count it as a very good quality for someone to possess. She acted hastily, driven by a sense of urgency. That in and of its self is a mistake given the context and so she could have acted smarter there if it would have been in-character. She became focussed on her goal and overlooked (or at least underestamated) the dangers between her and that goal, but she didn't care because the goal was so important to her. I think it is better to take dangers seriously, but in a sense of urgency it is hard to do that.

So, basicly, what I think about her actions: They were rash and, tactically, there was obviously a better way to go about it (namely, telling Raquel and requesting they go out to help, trying to ask Lulu more questions, etc etc) however, it is still a noble act (imo) and it was IC, so I don't see it as stupid nor do I think she should have acted any differently. I enjoyed writing it and exciting scenes such as these are things I enjoy reading. That's my take on it.

[GoD]

Yes, her action was noble. Yes I respect her as a character and love her. YES I FREAKIN RESPECT YOU MERC. Because now you are my super-special-awesome friend. She just needed to... think better. That's it.

ON another note: Omake of Gytha and Synthia: In Sanctuary.

Gytha: Ey Synthia, you'll never guess what happen to me when I was trying to leave Sanc-

Synthia: Wait you tried to leave the city.

Gytha: Ay!!! To rescue Amon!!

Synthia: *eye twitch* Without supplies

Gytha: Aye!!!!

Synthia: both eyes are twitching* Did you cause trouble for the local militia...?

Gytha: *Kitty face* Maybe~.

Synthia: *Table Flip* *Rage*

Gytha: *Laughs all awesome like*

Synthia: * Blows up the palace in sheer rage*

Gytha: *Standing there unfazed*

Synthia: *Ragequit, on the floor*

Gytha: Would you like something to eat Synthia?

Synthia: Whatever.

XD No sand was harmed in the making of this Omake. The only that got hurt was Amon, who had a leg cramp.

[roymbrog]

So, what are Gytha's bad qualities? Because all I've seen are silly things she's done being portrayed in a good light. I'm serious here, bad judgement could be an awesome character flaw, but you won't let her have it because you portray all her actions as noble and for the greater good.

I'm not trying to be antagonistic, I'm trying to be honest. I'm miffed because apparently Gytha can do no wrong. It's perfectly ok if a characters IC actions are shortsighted, stupid, or have flawed reasoning, you know. Any good quality or ideal can go too far.

[Mercakete]

To answer Roy's question: Like I said, she's prone to being a bit rash and she can be pretty vengeful. She's also fairly oblivious at times, to name a few.

I just don't like talking about people's -- characters or otherwise -- bad traits. They're there, I just prefer to think about them as positively as possible.

[roymbrog]

Problem is, in literature you have to think about the negative. If no one did, how could there be any villians? How could there be character development?

Part of what makes a Mary Sue is the writer ignoring all character flaws or making them positive. Real people don't work that way. The flaws of real people make you question them. Why do they act that way, don't they know it's bad? Look, they hurt somebody. Look, they hurt themself. Real flaws are problems that need to be fixed. A bad temper, trust issues, bad judgement. If it's always shown as a good thing, it's not a flaw, because a flaw is something that is wrong and harmful.

About the vengeful thing... The only times I can remember her acting that way were towards people who everyone agreed deserved it. Villains, basically. And it's portrayed positively as "look, she wants to protect her friends!" so it's not really a flaw. It would be a flaw if, say, she were accosting party members or it was acknowledged that she went too far. Causing unnecessary pain to an enemy, or some such, in a violent way.

Rash, yes. But as you can see, you just overshadowed that by her loyalty. Doesn't matter if she's rash, she's loyal to Amon! She's gonna run out into the desert with no idea what she's doing, but look, she wants to save her friend! It's not being portrayed as a flaw, it's being shown as a good thing.

Really, it doesn't matter what negative traits a character has if they're never shown as negative. Portrayal is all that matters. I could easily turn kindness, a positive trait, into a flaw. If a character were so kind they healed enemies that were attacking their friends (Joanna) it could be a very dangerous flaw. (Oh look, we beat the thing! AAH! Our teammate healed it because she's so nice-GAAAH...! *eaten by monster*)

Oblivious is a real flaw here, however, even if it's always used for comedy.

[Mercakete]

Characters can have flaws without the flaws being showcased. I just have them act as whatever's IC. Just because I don't go "look at this person, (s)he's SO EVIL" doesn't mean I make sues. :/ It just means that part of my own personality is that I like to view people's good character traits. It doesn't mean my characters don't have flaws, it just means I, myself, choose not to bog myself down with them. Also, I don't have to have characters be crazy antagonistic nor do I have to make their bad traits exceptionally and blatantly bad. Most people aren't that polarized anyway.

About the vengeful thing... The only times I can remember her acting that way were towards people who everyone agreed deserved it. Villains, basically. And it's portrayed positively as "look, she wants to protect her friends!" so it's not really a flaw.

Just wait until later. More will be revealed. But yeah, she's not crazy vengeful, but...well, you'll see.

It's not being portrayed as a flaw, it's being shown as a good thing.

Both are aspects of her personality. "She's loyal to her friend" yes, however, there's the other trait there "but she's rash." Every personality trait has its uses for good or for bad. The "rash" trait is good in a pinch, when soemone has to act quickly or make a quick decision. However, it can trip people up (the rash person and his or her companions) when there is time to think and he or she just charges in anyway.

In this case, when it would have been beneficioal to stop and think things through critically, it was improperly applied.

Oblivious is a real flaw here, however, even if it's always used for comedy.

Even being oblivious can be a good thing. It preserves innocence, for example.

Really, it doesn't matter what negative traits a character has if they're never shown as negative. Portrayal is all that matters.

You're treating this like portraying characters as bad is a good thing, which I disagree with. I think that protagonists should generally have a lot of good in them. Villains will generally have a lot of bad in them. No one's perfect, but for the mostpart, having a character based heavily in flaws is as bad as having a character without any flaws.

In the end I guess it comes down to writer's preference. I don't expect everyone to think Gytha's a good character, but I think so and I think her minor flaws and quirks which blossom from her personality are valid. As I've said before, it's not like I build the character, it's more the character reveals him or herself to me and this is just what I got when I met Gytha. Thank you for your concern, Roy, but I don't see a problem with how I write for my characters. I hope you still enjoy reading my posts.

[roymbrog]

I hope you know I wasn't calling Gytha a sue, I don't think she is. I don't think it's good to portray protagonists as evil either, that's not what I was saying. I'm only talking about personality traits. They don't have to be OMNOMNOM EVIL bad, but there does need to be some negative stuff. Well, anyway, yeah. I guess this is done.

[ReformBlade]

You're treating this like portraying characters as bad is a good thing, which I disagree with. I think that protagonists should generally have a lot of good in them. Villains will generally have a lot of bad in them. No one's perfect, but for the mostpart, having a character based heavily in flaws is as bad as having a character without any flaws.

In the end I guess it comes down to writer's preference. I don't expect everyone to think Gytha's a good character, but I think so and I think her minor flaws and quirks which blossom from her personality are valid. As I've said before, it's not like I build the character, it's more the character reveals him or herself to me and this is just what I got when I met Gytha. Thank you for your concern, Roy, but I don't see a problem with how I write for my characters. I hope you still enjoy reading my posts.

You're entitled to your opinion, but I'm of the mind that good/bad isn't as black and white as it sounds. And on another semi unrelated note, I view gytha as an extremely dangerous being, not even a good being, to be honest. She's almost like the 800 pound gorilla in the room that no one questions for fear of being shot. She does whatever the fuck she wants, while you dress it up as "She's loyal to her friends/Oblivious". Case and point, firing her gun when people wrong her enough, also the whole "I'm just trying to help him, I'm not a criminal" mindset she had when trying to get out of sanctuary, practically disobeying direct orders and even hurting (however lightly) soldiers in the process.

Just my 3 and 1/4 cents.

[roymbrog]

I found a few articles that explain what I was trying to say last night, better than I did. I figure they might be a good read, if nothing else. Merc, I'd appreciate it if you took a look at them and told me what you think.

http://www.writepop.com/writing/character-flaws

http://www.rachellegardner.com/2012/02/why-your-novel-characters-need-real-flaws/

http://cgblake.wordpress.com/2011/12/09/wanted-flawed-main-character-super-heroes-need-not-apply/

[Mercakete]

So I begin reading the first article and right off the bat I disagree. I'm sorry, roy, but I think we just have different writing preferences and it'll have to end with that.

[ReformBlade]

Those articles have some good advice, merca. Don't be so quick to write them off because you don't agree with them.

[Phoenix]

And then my gallery mysteriously updated itself.

[GoD]

I have half a mind to go and murder Gytha...

MY GOD!!

[Phoenix]

UPDATE:

-Items list updated.

-Arbalest(Crossbow upgrade) added.

-Lucky Charm unlocked.

Regular item unlocks: (posting this here for a change)

Disabling Weapon

Dampening Tome

Gamble Weapon

Power Amulet

Novice Ring

Shock Grenade

[GoD]

I feel like I triggered some kind of bomb.

Also Merc, my apologies if I offended Gytha AKA you. I don't know why I keep saying sorry.... it's a habit whenever I insult a character in-universe.

[Phoenix]

Character separation would prevent 'offense', Disky

[GoD]

Hehe... I guess you're right. Made a post.

I need to keep being funny. And besides the only one who can be insulted with leisure is Chelsea.

Because it's Chelsea :P

[Snike]

I feel like I triggered some kind of bomb.

Is this like some sort of bystander guilt? P.sure it's Bert who ignited this explosion.

[ReformBlade]

I have half a mind to go and murder Gytha...

MY GOD!!

The line starts waaaaay over there bud.

[Mercakete]

Internet is being buggy. You'll see me when it behaves.

[Phoenix]

Giving the rp a huge kick forward tomorrow. Would do it tonight, but was on the phone for hours and am too tired to do it right now. Hell, I barely had the energy to make an LoAF post

[Mercakete]

Argle blargle trying to make due until explorer decides to be a browser again, though I won't be online for many long stretches of time, I will check in throughout the day.

[Phoenix]

Update of some kind:

-Item list updated

-Recover staff updated

-Fixed some silly typoes I noticed in the OP

Other stuff:

-Amon leaves the Party Roster

-Raquel joins the Party Roster

EDIT:

Also uh ... may want to work on the combat teams ... since we've got like a new character to place and everything. Also wouldn't hurt to make sure we aren't caught with our pants down or anything like that

Edited March 12, 2012 by Phoenix