What's wrong with the American education system?

[Junkhead]

I see alot of foreign people either complaining or dissaproving it. I would like to know why.

And another question would be: What is the ideal education system? Or of what country?

[Tables]

I don't know what most people's complaints are, but one I have is with the university system. Notably how you have to do a wide range of subjects until your final year. There are arguments for it like 'it gives you more diverse knowledge' and stuff, but thing is you've been studying multiple different subjects for 14 years of your life up until that point, and let's be honest, knowing more literature and Geography isn't going to help if I want to study physics.

Comparatively what most other countries do is let you choose your subject when you apply to university. Like, I chose to study maths and put that on my application. Now I do a pure maths degree (with a few modules in other subjects which are strictly ones I've chosen - and are very related such as discrete maths (in computer science), physics and statistics modules).

[Celice]

That wideness is meant to allow variety in your studies, as well as to encourage exploring things other than your linear set of mind or direction. At least, at the higher education level.

At the lower education levels, the issue is mainly forcing students to learn a number of agreed-to-be-important concepts, with the goal not to truly understand or appreciate these concepts, but to only provide feedback through testing and response, that a student comprehends the subject. Education, and comprehension, are not one and the same :/

Though, it's incredibly important to mention what it is that's the issue: there's how things are taught, what's expected of students, what's expected of those who teach, the standards the students, faculty, and institution are meant to uphold, and a number of other things. Things which are not conductive towards education, but rehearsal.

Ideality depends on what you're wanting. A school which lives up to the name of education wouldn't be one which demanded set responses from those who attend, but desired a personal, self-response, and did not grow an individual, but watched and encouraged growth.

[Inactive Account]

The variety vs focus issue seems to be handled differently by different schools. Where I am, if you're not taking three our four classes directly related to your major per semester (taking about five classes total per semester) then you probably aren't graduating on time. I think whether or not that approach works for you depends on who you are; some of us appreciate a bit more variety. I do see what you mean by requiring diversity in subjects being a problem, though; neither approach works perfectly for everyone.

[eclipse]

The ideal educational system would be one where parents and the schools held equal responsibility for their child's education. I don't know if this exists anywhere in the world.

[Zkirsche]

That wideness is meant to allow variety in your studies, as well as to encourage exploring things other than your linear set of mind or direction. At least, at the higher education level.

Except there is little to no point in variety at the higher levels, which is what, inevitably, prepares you for your desired career/life path. By the time you reach university, to achieve better results and intelligence at that topic, you need to specialise yourself with it. But which topic do you choose? That is governed by your already made exploration into a variety of topics made in high school and before.

[Celice]

For most U.S. students, high school and before does not adequately give enough time or interaction to really decide what you want. Every class and opportunity is restricted in numerous ways--at the college-level and higher, these restrictions lift a bit because the expectation shifts: pre-college, standards and the expectation to meet these standards are enforced. At the basic college or university, these expectations are hedged to an incredible degree--the student, in a comparable way, becomes quite free. Often times, this freedom encourages students to more selfishly pursue what interests them, because they have a majority of the choices and opportunities right in their hands, rather than handed to them and told to meet the expectations.

Unless you're attending a specialized institution, most students in their undergrad studies are still given that freedom to redesign and realize their interests. The farther you go in your undergrad studies, the more you're expected to actually know what you want to do. By the time you reach grad school, if one chooses to go so far, you are not expected to explore such variety--because your undergrad studies made that available to you.

You can explore interests before higher education levels, but most of what students are exposed to does not allow free exploration. The environment catered to in public education can put students off in a bad direction and give misconceptions about what school actually is about. One way to think of it is that undergraduate institutions attempt to reinstill that self-worth back into the student.

Any student who is completely driven and assured they know what they want, especially at an undergrad level, can usually go speak with their deans and other important figures at the college and create a unique education plan to meet GE courses that are usually unnecessary. But this variety is almost always necessary and requested only in public-funded institutions. If you go into any specialized or private institutions, you won't have as many generalized courses expected of you. This variety is mostly born out of the desire to allow each person to explore things fully, but also the expectation that students should know something about their world. This attempt at breaking provinciality is also part of that enforced variety. But like I said, it's not as if you're completely forced to take all the courses--you can speak with your school and see if any alternatives can be setup. Most courses allow you to pass their requirement so long as you can show a knowledge and aptitude in its field of study, without you being forced to take the course for however many quarters or semesters or whatever your school deals with. It's important to not generalize too much with other options are available to those willing to find them

[Anouleth]

The ideal educational system would be one where parents and the schools held equal responsibility for their child's education. I don't know if this exists anywhere in the world.

Why would it be ideal? There are many parents out there who do not care about education, or who are poorly educated themselves, or have other concerns. Some children are raised by a single parent, and some don't have any parents.

[Excellen Browning]

I've been told that on average, almost half of the American high school students drop out. Don't fucking know if it's the truth, since I didn't bother checking, but that'd qualify as a problem.

[I.M. Gei]

I've been told that on average, almost half of the American high school students drop out. Don't fucking know if it's the truth, since I didn't bother checking, but that'd qualify as a problem.

I don't think that's true, personally. Maybe in some areas such as, say, West Virginia, but then you have to look at the underlying socioeconomic factors there; some may have to drop out to help support their families.

[lolDeath]

I've been told that on average, almost half of the American high school students drop out. Don't fucking know if it's the truth, since I didn't bother checking, but that'd qualify as a problem.

hahahahahahah

no.

not even close. whoever told you that is stupid.

I would say the problem with it is that it wastes god knows how much time and money teaching people things that have literally 0 practical application ever, instead of preparing them to find a job or continue their education.

[I.M. Gei]

I think a lot of our issues also have to do with that we place more emphasis on passing a test than on actually learning. And to be honest, in high school we're only concerned about getting to college and don't care how we get there.

Edited April 11, 2011 by Tiki's Pet Pikachu

[Tables]

According to this, this and this, it's 'only' about 30% who drop out. Which is still pretty high, but significantly lower than 50%. As the third link shows, it is close to 50% in major cities.

Regarding Celice's post: I can't make a complete response but I'll just mention a few things: If students in the US aren't seeing enough in secondary school/college to make an informed choice on what they want to do at university, then that's highlighting a problem in the secondary/high school system. I think the main problem with this approach isn't actually the fact students don't focus on the subject as much, but more it wastes a year for them to do so: I don't know if it's standard but from what I can tell, most US degrees take 4 years and I'm assuming that's for a BA/BSc. In the UK, that'd be a 3 year degree and would be exactly the same level, and in fact a 4 year degree would be a Masters (which would presumably be a 5-6 year degree in the US). And that's just because students aren't made to choose early enough.

[Excellen Browning]

Actually, this factsheet is propaganda disguised as a factsheet and even fails to provide the most basic understanding of what a "dropout" is, and the accuracy of this 71% graduation thing is called into question.

Use this article as reference instead

(actual dropout rates seem to be 15-20% for whites and 35% for minorities)

Also of interest, back when I was 18 and had to choose what kind of career I wanted to pursue/degree I wanted to get I really didn't know what I wanted to do and most people my age have the same problem. I only really knew what I wanted to do by the time I was 20 and many people I know still don't know what they want. Choosing early or earlier isn't a smart thing to do, either.

Edited April 12, 2011 by Excellen Browning

[StinDuh]

What is wrong with my education system, at least, is that school is busy work, and we "learn" things that are not applicable in daily society. In English, we learn how to read, analyze, and write poetry. Never in my life have these skills ever come in handy, except for in school. In Biology, we learn Taxonomy, which seems like trivial knowledge. What is the point of teachers teaching these often trivial topics? Because they need to give us a grade. But unfortunately, our grading system does not work either. Our grading system is a scale of time put forth, of effort put forth, to do the assignments. A student who spends 3 hours a night on homework will get a better grade than the student who does his homework in a hurried fashion the class period that it's due. Does this mean the student who spent 3 hours is smarter? Not necessarily. Many projects are graded on "creativity", but where teachers find "creativity", I find "effort". It's not creative that that one student bordered her poster board with pink fuzzy fluff. That's effort and wasted money. Anyway, I could talk about this forever, but I'll keep my ending statement on this matter concise: School is a waste of time, and is graded according to the effort. This girl is not smarter than I am just because she spent an extra day working on her project.

Now to the next topic.

In my opinion, the Ideal Public High School Education System would essentially be a mix between the American College System and the old form of Apprenticeships. Highschoolers should know what they want to pursue as a career pretty early on, and this system would better achieve their goals. Classes would be chosen by what you want to pursue as a career. Let's say I want to be a pilot(which I do). My class schedule would revolve around things like Physics and Algebra, classes that pertain directly to flying a plane, with little focus on English and History, for those classes only need to be taken for the purpose of general knowledge. Time allotted to each class would depend on necessity of class for career needs. For a student who wants to be a pilot, his classes of Physics and related sciences would be longer than his classes for English. At the same time, his schedule would also include in-plane instruction time, where he learned how a plane works and how to fly it. Essentially, school would be specific to each person and their needs.

[eclipse]

Why would it be ideal? There are many parents out there who do not care about education, or who are poorly educated themselves, or have other concerns. Some children are raised by a single parent, and some don't have any parents.

The current system places way too much emphasis on the schools. Parents need to take responsibility for all facets of their offspring, which includes education. Don't expect the schools to do everything.

I haven't seen too many truly parentless children. Most of those who are missing parents end up under a guardianship, so in that case, the guardian takes the place of a parent.

[Defeatist Elitist]

The current system places way too much emphasis on the schools. Parents need to take responsibility for all facets of their offspring, which includes education. Don't expect the schools to do everything.

I haven't seen too many truly parentless children. Most of those who are missing parents end up under a guardianship, so in that case, the guardian takes the place of a parent.

Again, the problem with this is that many parents don't care about education, have wacky and bizarre views on education, or are simply incompetent. I too believe that parents are an integral part of teaching children, but they cannot be relied upon. My parents have always more or less created an environment conducive to learning for me, but I know a lot of parents do not do that. In fact, I have had a massive advantage in every form of education I have participated in so far simply because of this. Beyond that, many parents do stupid fucking things like going in to complain about their child's marks (and this isn't a case of stupid marking as it happens regularly, and for shit like Math which is wtf), and not like "my child isn't doing well, how can we try to fix this". It's more like "how dare you give my child this poor mark".

Basically, I think parents and parenting are just too crazily varied to build our education system (or I guess in this case, not my education system, the US Education system) around them.

EDIT: Also, to sound less negative, there may be parents who really do want to help their kids ACTUALLY learn, but the parents might just not be well educated themselves, and sometimes that can be a disadvantage. I think it would sort of start to increase the gap between kids with educated parents, and those with uneducated parents.

Edited April 12, 2011 by ZXValaRevan

[eclipse]

Hmmm. . .maybe a required parenting class as a part of the educational system, then? I'm sure there's plenty of high schoolers who don't plan on being parents, but people change over time. . .

Education starts from the home. If parents can't do it right, the child will be at that much more of a disadvantage.

[Defeatist Elitist]

Hmmm. . .maybe a required parenting class as a part of the educational system, then? I'm sure there's plenty of high schoolers who don't plan on being parents, but people change over time.

Except it would have to be more like a teaching course, which would have to be pretty crazy in depth.

Education starts from the home. If parents can't do it right, the child will be at that much more of a disadvantage.

Yes. And including parents as part of the education system itself will put those children at an even greater disadvantage.

[eclipse]

Maybe it will, maybe it won't. It all depends on where the parent's interest lies. If the parent is more interested in something that isn't the child, then it's not gonna be pretty.

[Defeatist Elitist]

Maybe it will, maybe it won't. It all depends on where the parent's interest lies. If the parent is more interested in something that isn't the child, then it's not gonna be pretty.

And I don't believe that that is a good policy for education. Education needs to be equal opportunities- not necessarily equal outcomes, but equal opportunities, and relying more and more heavily on parents does the complete opposite.

[eclipse]

I'm not sure what the right answer is, but making schools take as much responsibility in education as they do now is not the right way of going about things. I do believe parents should be held accountable for their kids.

[Snowy_One]

IMO, the problem with the system is that it's horribly cut and dry. Work is unengaging and often bland and does not encourage the student to go out and learn on their own or develop their own ideas. It's kind of like a factory instead of a actual learning process. That is not to say that the kids don't learn, but they learn little more than basic formulas and don't learn what to do when confronted with unusual problems that they don't know how to handle. A lot of students seem to be more destined for cubicle jobs where their mind is limited to studying spreadsheets over and over for a company than for actual knowledge. Granted, this may be an American thing, where we value objective courses more than abstract ones, but most people wouldn't be able to grasp that.

[Lux Aeterna]

I've been told that on average, almost half of the American high school students drop out. Don't fucking know if it's the truth, since I didn't bother checking, but that'd qualify as a problem.

Actually, 98% of my high school ends up going to college, but then again, mine is a bit of an unusual case. It's main purpose is to function as a solid stepping stone on the way to college. I guess you couldn't really call that average.

Anyway... I can't say too much for college since I'm not in college myself, but as for the high school I'm currently in, the irony is that instead of believing that it forces too much variety, it actually doesn't allow for enough. Up to a certain point, a basic, well-rounded education in many subjects is nice, so I somewhat agree with the forcing. In any case, I want to take a variety of classes, but here I am just finding out now that by senior year, unless I don't drop some of the classes I really want to do, I won't meet all of the required classes.

I actually know exactly what I want to do (game designer), but even then, I'm still not able to try out all the other classes that I find interesting--and provide a less monotonous school experience for me.

So, to answer the OP's question, is the fact that our education system takes the whole "every person is equal" to a whole other level. They just treat everyone as faceless students who have to adhere to their school rules, while the better type of education would truly listen to the individual student's needs.

[Strawman]

I mean I don't know how it works in other countries but or really what the issue is on the national level but in Government we did discuss the problem with education in more of a State/County basis. I think we basically said the main issue is setting. For example, Where I live the 3 best schools in the county are 2 private schools that cost like $20,000 and a magnet school that is public but has a limit on how many students can go there and has a waiting list to get in. The other schools suffer from too many kids that don't care about learning, kids who did not have sufficient early education(kids who can't read, don't understand basic math, etc), and teachers who don't care about teaching(partly because the students don't care). Also under setting is the issue of the worst schools are in the worst parts of town. Meaning that the bad schools are in areas where the people don't necessarily value learning or being smart, whereas the kids at the 3 best schools come from families/environments that value education. Not to say money fixes everything, because it definitely doesn't, but there also a lot of public education systems that don't get enough money(mine for example). Basically most public school are kind of stuck in a bad place with little to no way to improve outside of basically completely changing the values of the people who go and work there. At least thats how I see it.

Also we read an article that mentioned that the state of Florida has started allowing its schools to do certain things and that they have really improved, but i can;t remember what it was they were doing.

As for the perfect education system, I have no idea what that would be.