Best/Worst in the Series: Round 92

[Maji]

The difference between 60% and 70% does exist, but it's not like it's the difference between 'perfect hit' and 'cannot hit anything'. Certainly, if I had the choice between dealing 10 more damage, having 10 more speed (and getting to attack twice), or having 10 more defence (and being indestructible), and having 10 more hit, I know that I would NOT pick having 10 more hit, ever.

Having 10% more hit >>>>>>>> not having 10% more hit, luckily you don't have to pick Str over Skl, so having a free 10% along with Str and Spd is cool if you ask me.

The Royal Laguz are good, but they are only for one chapter where you are expected to fight extremely tough enemies, and even then they need appropriate support from good Beorc and intelligent to perform at their maximum. Certainly, Royals do not trivialize FE10 nearly as much as "warp Shiida, kill boss, warp Marth, seize".

The Laguz Royals are optional to use, much like forging, so I still don't see why forging is much different from using Laguz royals when both don't have to be used, Endgame restriction or not.

I wouldn't warp Sheeda to the middle of a battle frontier anyway. Warping her in let's say... Ch. 5? Whoa dude. Besides, you're piling two Warp uses a chapter, and that'd kill your supply REAL quick.

So Soren being able to ORKO some enemy types that he doubles (since he doesn't have great speed), but with poor durability, poor move, and needing to be babied all the way up from level 1 to promotion is somehow commensurate to base level Jeigan OHKOing half the enemies in the game?

Why would you use Jeigan for more than the first five chapters anyway? By then, if your team can't hold themselves, obviously you're going to be screwed over when Jeigan gets outclassed by more badass units later on.

I don't think that FE7 is so difficult that you are ever forced to abuse supports. Simple as.

I don't think that FE11 is so difficult that you are ever forced to abuse Forging. Simple as.

Uh, what the hell is your point? I could really care less if Barst has 80% hit instead of that 84% hit if it means that he OHKOes.

Then you give Barts a Hand Axe 60 Acc? Ouch, luckily he'll have his Skl to buff it up.

You do not need to max out your forges, or even close. Even a base Ridersbane has about 24 mt, we do not need to go all the way up to 54 mt in order to effectively kill our enemies.

24 Mt, you're doing something wrong if you need to forge it further to ORKO people, especially if you're leveling your units correctly.

What a ridiculous strawman argument.

>>Anouleth says: I could really care less if Barst has 80%

Which is why the top tiers of tier lists are dominated by high lance rank units such as Hardin, Jagen, Shiida, and Abel.

Oh, now you're going to give everyone forged Knight Killers (granted- Wing Spear for Sheeda)? I do believe that this originally sprouted from you saying giving someone a Knight Killer breaks the game.

I have played it: Soren is nowhere near as OP as someone like Shiida.

He's still damn fine with a forged Wind tome though.

+15 avoid on an Archer is useless when they're not really exposed to attacks anyway. Crit is never really reliable or necessary. If you have 90-100 hit, more hit rate is not useful.

+15 Avd on an Archer is indeed useful, now they can bait attacks and come out of it unscathed. I know Crit is unreliable, but an extra boost is always good if you ask me.

@ Integrity- No I did not, thank you for explaining that to me. I always got the impression that:

>> Serenes Forest Says: "by fighting alongside one another" was literal.

Source

[Shadow Mir]

He's still damn fine with a forged Wind tome though.

Except for the part where a forged Wind is second only to a forged Light in terms of cost.

[Radiant Dragon]

He's still damn fine with a forged Wind tome though.

Not really. He doesn't have great offense until he's able to promote for the extra strength, and even then he's plagued by horrid durability and bad movement in a game dominated by mounted units.

+15 Avd on an Archer is indeed useful, now they can bait attacks and come out of it unscathed. I know Crit is unreliable, but an extra boost is always good if you ask me.

A plan where we have to depend on Rebecca to dodge attacks is a bad plan, as is relying on her to critical when we need her to.

[Maji]

You are missing the point. Skl is only useful in high numbers. Point for point it is virtually useless. That's why it's considered a joke, because gaining 4 points over 10 levels is just not going to make enough of a difference in performance.

I do see your point, however, it's far from useless, because as you just said, an extra 4% is definitely not useless. Saying useless is stretching it a bit too far. Besides, an extra four gains over a base of 11? Sign me up!

How I play doesn't mean anything, either. Good thing I never mentioned it. I only stated the facts with the games. It's been a long time since I played SD, but I recall being able to make forges plenty powerful enough and still have money to go around, and I never arena abuse or hack.

Likewise, however, anything below H4, I can recall not having to forge and getting through just fine. Forging powerful weapons might even be just as bad as arena abusing, even worse if you raise Zagaro and Wolf to wield them in that enemies don't have a chance. Don't pull the "If the game hands you a load of objects that can break the game, the solution is not to say 'well the player shouldn't use them anyway', it's bad design." on me either because lots of FE's have arenas and we just agreed that we never use them either.

So Soren breaks the game by attacking one enemy per turn.

Average 15 Spd at level 20 with a forged Wind Tome? I think I'm missing something.

+15 avoid for a unit that shouldn't get attacked. Forgive me for not being excited. And I don't know what game you've been playing, but in FE7, 98% displayed is not nearly low enough to be expecting the unit to miss. I don't give a damn about the difference between hitting all the time and hitting 498/500 times.

As I said before, this can enable dodgebots (Bolting, Long Arch whore says hi), I know supports aren't to be relied on, but I was merely stating an example of how they can be used to make a battle less painful. Also, it's free + up stats, why the hell not use them to your advantage?

I think you're being stubborn and don't want to admit that supports aren't all that good/worth it.

I still don't see how free stats aren't worth it.

[Maji]

Except for the part where a forged Wind is second only to a forged Light in terms of cost.

Which is exactly my point of where on Earth is all this money is coming from to Forge those Knight Killers to OHKO everything?

[Junkhead]

Enemies in FE9 are so slow that 15, and later 17 (Promotion gain) doubles just about anything.

[Maji]

Not really. He doesn't have great offence until he's able to promote for the extra strength, and even then he's plagued by horrid durability and bad movement in a game dominated by mounted units.

17.4 Mag on a 20/-- Soren, this is bad offence? I know he doesn't have Str from the get go, but forging weapon weight says hi.

A plan where we have to depend on Rebecca to dodge attacks is a bad plan, as is relying on her to critical when we need her to.

She has good dodge initially, so why now have her be the dodging whore for Bolting and Long Arch? She'll never get hit with the right supports.

[Junkhead]

And Rebecca's dodge actually sucks unless she's overleveled.

[Krad]

Which is exactly my point of where on Earth is all this money is coming from to Forge those Knight Killers to OHKO everything?

Money in Shadow Dragon:

10000 from a village in Chapter 1

5000 from a village in Chapter 2

15000 after finishing Chapter 3

5000 from a village in Chapter 4

10000 from a bullion in Chapter 6

15000 from a bullion in Chapter 9

20000 from a bullion in Chapter 12

And the list goes on

Making a Wing Spear forge with +5mt(anything more than this is superfluous) is worth 8960 gold(6160 with +4mt). Making a Ridersbane forge with +5 mt and +10 hit is worth 11400 gold(8400 with +4mt). It's not expensive at all, specially when considering the benefits it gives you (OHKOing the most common class in the game).

[Maji]

Money in Shadow Dragon:

10000 from a village in Chapter 1

5000 from a village in Chapter 2

15000 after finishing Chapter 3

5000 from a village in Chapter 4

10000 from a bullion in Chapter 6

15000 from a bullion in Chapter 9

20000 from a bullion in Chapter 12

And the list goes on

Making a Wing Spear forge with +5mt(anything more than this is superfluous) is worth 8960 gold(6160 with +4mt). Making a Ridersbane forge with +5 mt and +10 hit is worth 11400 gold(8400 with +4mt). It's not expensive at all, specially when considering the benefits it gives you (OHKOing the most common class in the game).

Yes, but may I ask what mode we are even (we as in the other people as well) arguing about? I'd like to set this is stone so poor me doesn't have to assume we're talking about H3 when in reality, we're actually talking about Normal. :/

PS: Lol if you need to forge on Normal to beat the game.

[Radiant Dragon]

17.4 Mag on a 20/-- Soren, this is bad offence? I know he doesn't have Str from the get go, but forging weapon weight says hi.

Forging tomes is a waste of time due to the price and the fact we can only forge basic ones. And if he doesn't double, he doesn't kill enemies, which means he has bad offense.

Edit: I'm talking about Hard Mode.

She has good dodge initially, so why now have her be the dodging whore for Bolting and Long Arch? She'll never get hit with the right supports.

Except those long range attacks will probably be aimed at other, less durable units.

Edited May 25, 2011 by Radiant Dragon

[Florete]

I do see your point, however, it's far from useless, because as you just said, an extra 4% is definitely not useless. Saying useless is stretching it a bit too far. Besides, an extra four gains over a base of 11? Sign me up!

I said "virtually" for a reason. Obviously it is not completely and entirely useless. The point is that it's severely underpowered as a stat.

Likewise, however, anything below H4, I can recall not having to forge and getting through just fine. Forging powerful weapons might even be just as bad as arena abusing, even worse if you raise Zagaro and Wolf to wield them in that enemies don't have a chance. Don't pull the "If the game hands you a load of objects that can break the game, the solution is not to say 'well the player shouldn't use them anyway', it's bad design." on me either because lots of FE's have arenas and we just agreed that we never use them either.

Of course you can get through without them. You can get through FE9 without Titania, too. That's not the point (which you seem to be missing a lot today). The point is that they break the game.

And no, this is not comparable to arena abuse. Arena abuse takes time and risk, forging you get easily with money you already have. And I do use arenas, I just don't abuse them; I don't let maps take any longer than they would otherwise just for an Arena.

Average 15 Spd at level 20 with a forged Wind Tome? I think I'm missing something.

You are. It's called enemy stats. FE9 enemies are not fast, but Soren is still missing out on plenty of doubles around Ch 18 and 19 with that Spd where enemies aren't afraid to reach 12+ Spd. Plus, how is this helping him attack multiple enemies per turn when his durability is still garbage?

As I said before, this can enable dodgebots (Bolting, Long Arch whore says hi), I know supports aren't to be relied on, but I was merely stating an example of how they can be used to make a battle less painful. Also, it's free + up stats, why the hell not use them to your advantage?

Of course they can make it less painful, they just aren't worth the investment because of how long they take to build up. Rebecca should not be relied on to dodge tank a thing.

I still don't see how free stats aren't worth it.

Then Arena abuse more.

[Maji]

Forging tomes is a waste of time due to the price and the fact we can only forge basic ones. And if he doesn't double, he doesn't kill enemies, which means he has bad offense.

Edit: I'm talking about Hard Mode.

It most definitely isn't a waste of time if you can forge and make a magic user useful seeing as they have 1~2 Rg as well as 90% of enemies having crappy Res.

Except those long range attacks will probably be aimed at other, less durable units.

Like an Archer, I'm not sure if I did say place Priscilla in the middle of a battlefield to be targeted, sorry if I did, but Rebecca is honestly the only person I like to be a dodge bot.

[Krad]

Yes, but may I ask what mode we are even (we as in the other people as well) arguing about? I'd like to set this is stone so poor me doesn't have to assume we're talking about H3 when in reality, we're actually talking about Normal. :/

I was talking about H5. Also, about a previous comment saying that you shouldn't use Jagen past C5, I used him in my H5 run up to C17 as a DracoKnight, and only stopped using him since I wanted to go to 17x and needed to kill someone.

[Radiant Dragon]

It most definitely isn't a waste of time if you can forge and make a magic user useful seeing as they have 1~2 Rg as well as 90% of enemies having crappy Res.

If we could make unlimited forges like in RD, I might agree with you (they're still really expensive, though). But we don't have time to forge tomes in between forging good Iron/Steel/Silver weapons and Hand Axes/Javelins.

Like an Archer, I'm not sure if I did say place Priscilla in the middle of a battlefield to be targeted, sorry if I did, but Rebecca is honestly the only person I like to be a dodge bot.

You don't have to be in the middle of a battlefield to be targeted by ballistae or Bolting. And I can think of a bunch of people I'd prefer to be a dodge bot than Rebecca.

Edited May 25, 2011 by Radiant Dragon

[Maji]

I said "virtually" for a reason. Obviously it is not completely and entirely useless. The point is that it's severely underpowered as a stat.

"Skill is worthless and a joke stat"- Was the original argument.

Of course you can get through without them. You can get through FE9 without Titania, too. That's not the point (which you seem to be missing a lot today). The point is that they break the game.

And no, this is not comparable to arena abuse. Arena abuse takes time and risk, forging you get easily with money you already have. And I do use arenas, I just don't abuse them; I don't let maps take any longer than they would otherwise just for an Arena.

Alright, I am apparently missing the point, sorry for not wanting to break the game?

It's comparable in that they both break the game, I don't want to break the game, easy as that. God forbid pressing B when an enemy is doing 10+ Dmg is too much work and is "risking the game"

You are. It's called enemy stats. FE9 enemies are not fast, but Soren is still missing out on plenty of doubles around Ch 18 and 19 with that Spd where enemies aren't afraid to reach 12+ Spd. Plus, how is this helping him attack multiple enemies per turn when his durability is still garbage?

I think I am going to drop this Soren argument, I don't even know where this branched from. Maybe an example that lead to this? I don't know. Point is, it's definitely not relevant to FE11 or FE7's supports in any way/form or shape.

Of course they can make it less painful, they just aren't worth the investment because of how long they take to build up. Rebecca should not be relied on to dodge tank a thing.

She joins in Ch.1- Eli, with a +2 with Lowen, meaning it will take 40 turns to go up a support and seeing as most battles (IIRC) are near the 10-20 mark, it should take as long as you make it out to be.

Then Arena abuse more.

Doesn't feel like using 200 turns of one chapter, but placing Rebecca near Lowen for six or so chapters? Sure.

[Maji]

I was talking about H5. Also, about a previous comment saying that you shouldn't use Jagen past C5, I used him in my H5 run up to C17 as a DracoKnight, and only stopped using him since I wanted to go to 17x and needed to kill someone.

Alright, thanks for clearing this up for me. I tried to shy away from Jeigan, using him to hold choke points early game and giving the kills to more deserving people, but as Red Fox of Fire pointed out: no one gives a damn about the way you or I play.

@ All, every FE11 comment made to me for the duration of this will be assumed to be on H5.

PS: Good luck "Breaking the game" by placing Sheeda in a swarm of H5 Socials.

[Radiant Dragon]

Doesn't feel like using 200 turns of one chapter, but placing Rebecca near Lowen for six or so chapters? Sure.

You would have to take almost 20 turns a chapter for that. How is hanging around in Arenas any different?

[Maji]

If we could make unlimited forges like in RD, I might agree with you (they're still really expensive, though). But we don't have time to forge tomes in between forging good Iron/Steel/Silver weapons and Hand Axes/Javelins.

It's one chapter you use to forge, of course you'll have the time. If you forgot Magic targets Res, which most enemies are lacking, so why not take advantage of that and pimp your magic out?

You don't have to be in the middle of a battlefield to be targeted by ballistae or Bolting. And I can think of a bunch of people I'd prefer to be a dodge bot than Rebecca.

And I'm sure they have their reasons too, Rebecca was just one of many people who can take advantage of supports, doesn't mean she's the best dodge bot, it was just an example.

[Maji]

You would have to take almost 20 turns a chapter for that. How is hanging around in Arenas any different?

Arena = gaining levels

Supports = having someone sit near another person.

[Radiant Dragon]

It's one chapter you use to forge, of course you'll have the time. If you forgot Magic targets Res, which most enemies are lacking, so why not take advantage of that and pimp your magic out?

It's because enemies have low Res that forging Tomes isn't necessary for your Mages to 2HKO practically everything. The problem is speed.

Rebecca was just one of many people who can take advantage of supports, doesn't mean she's the best dodge bot, it was just an example.

but Rebecca is honestly the only person I like to be a dodge bot.

Going to make up your mind?

Arena = gaining levels

Supports = having someone sit near another person.

You're wasting turns either way, so what's the difference?

Edited May 25, 2011 by Radiant Dragon

[Maji]

It's because enemies have low Res that forging Tomes isn't necessary for your Mages to 2HKO practically everything. The problem is speed.

Thus we forge to reduce weight. As I said, if my calculations are wrong forgive me, but:

= Speed - (Weapon Weight - Strength, take as 0 if negative)

Going to make up your mind?

"doesn't mean she's the best dodge bot, it was just an example."

"but Rebecca is honestly the only person >> I << like to be a dodge bot."

Thanks for assuming By this, I mean, I may not be correct on this one, but I like using her.

You're wasting turns either way, so what's the difference?

Don't have to waste turns, as I said, it's 40 turns for a support and ten-twenty turns a chapter (IIRC), meaning one support approximately three and a half chapters.

[Radiant Dragon]

Don't have to waste turns, as I said, it's 40 turns for a support and ten-twenty turns a chapter (IIRC), meaning one support approximately three and a half chapters.

Most chapters can be easily completed in less than 10 - 20 turns.

[Maji]

Most chapters can be easily completed in less than 10 - 20 turns.

Alright then: let's take the extreme (I highly doubt every chapter can be completed in this timeframe, but you're implying they can): every chapter is cleared in five turns. 5 X 2 = 10, meaning every four chapters will score a support, still good in my books.

[Venusaur]

Overrated: FE4. It's good... but not THAT good.

Underrated: FE5. I personally find it better than FE4, and Elite Mode makes a first playthrough more tolerable.