Best/Worst in the Series: Round 92

[Florete]

Oh, you're talking about actual support bonuses, not supporting units. But did you just say FE6's supports are not as "forced" as FE7's? They're mostly a novelty in both, but FE6's is just stupid because of the per-chapter point limit. I agree that the process of building them is unrefined to say the least, but it's not like they're in any way necessary.

[Anouleth]

Fix'd.

Now for technical stuff:

1.) Accuracy = Weapon Hit + Skill + (Luck / 2) + Class bonus + Weapon triangle bonus + Support bonus + Weapon Rank bonus

Critical rate = Weapon Critical + (Skill / 2) + Class bonus + Support bonus

Unless you mean to say not being able to hit and critical is a "joke" then Skl is indeed a useful stat.

If I lose 10 skill, that is 10 hit and since most of the time in FE11, you have 80+ hit anyway, it's not the difference between 'being able to hit' and 'not being able to hit'. Skill was already not that useful before, and now it's even worse now. Being able to crit is not that helpful when crit is never really reliable anyway.

2.) If you don't want to break the game, then don't forge the Horseslayer and Warpskip, easy as that, same could be said for FE9 for forging as much as one can make a comment on FE5!Warp or Olwen!Skl rings/Ambush/Dime Thunder.

If the game hands you a load of objects that can break the game, the solution is not to say 'well the player shouldn't use them anyway', it's bad design. You could say about any game-breaking ability or power that the player doesn't have to use them.

Forges in FE9 do not permit any unit with C Lances to OHKO half the enemies in the game.

Now, if you want to talk about bad mechanics, let's talk about FE7 where 8/10 things are support dependant (not to mention, the God awful way of support conversations, FE11 wins this bout IMO for being there from square one and not having to waste turns trying to gain support ranks), almost forcing you to send your squishy units to the middle of the battlefield to aid your attacker.

How is anything support dependent? You don't have to use supports and they don't make a huge difference. The game is really not so difficult that you're forced into building them, ever, people frequently play without touching them. And yes, they do involve a lot more effort than FE11, but they also give much bigger boosts.

I don't get how you're forced to send squishy units to the middle of the battlefield. Most units aren't squishy, and all units have options to support durable units. Most supports are not between combatants and squishy units.

[Parrhesia]

I disagree with this, look at the bases of some units, if you ask me, (looking at Oguma in particular) having an extra 11% to hit from the start is pretty good. :/ And with caps being near 30, and everyone having relatively decent growths, I'd say that's pretty damn good.

Very well then, I'll attack the way of supporting then, although if you do look at the calculations, it is highly biased towards supports. The thing I do not like is how one must waste turns to try and achieve a rank, and from there, you can really only have supports with one and a half people. Granted, most supports (minus lolLeaf) in most FEs only allow you to share three or less supports, at least you don't have to build ranks or anything. What about FE6 and 8? Compared to the shitstorm of 7, they're not as forced.

Ogma (without a U. Where is this U coming from?) has 11 skill. Okay, we get this. His 11 skill isn't markedly different to the sevens or whatever that are hanging around. While 11% is decent, it's NOT 11% more than anyone else, barring, like, Pirate Castor. And this is a swordsman in a game with an (allegedly; I haven't actually checked it for myself) pathetic avoid system.

Supports aren't forced in the slightest. I have no idea where you're getting this from.

[SirBrickingtonCrushworthy]

There are even supports in FE11?

[Maji]

Oh, you're talking about actual support bonuses, not supporting units. But did you just say FE6's supports are not as "forced" as FE7's? They're mostly a novelty in both, but FE6's is just stupid because of the per-chapter point limit. I agree that the process of building them is unrefined to say the least, but it's not like they're in any way necessary.

I didn't want to make a multiquote tower of doom, so I'll just quote individually.

"Almost a novelty"- Again, I must stress that I disagree with this full out. Supports can make or break a unit. Take a look at Lowen: generally a "passable" unit in terms of the shittonne of EXP Sain or Kent get in Lyn's story, but his warrant comes with sharing a Fire affinity support with Rebecca. An A support between the two will grant:

-+3 Atk (which makes all the difference for Rebecca)

-+15 Acc (Lowen with Axes? Why the hell not?)

-+15 Avd (lol@Rebecca never being touched again)

-+15 Crt

And don't try and tell me +15 is a novelty. :/ Hard mode? If you ask me, it's how I got through it, +15 instant stats is more than needed in Hard mode. So yes, I'd say supports are indeed needed for some players, but too bad they're a bitch to get compared to the lovely FE11 way, eh?

[LeaderR Elliot]

Overrated: haven´t played any of the overrated ones

Underrated: FE11

Shadow Dragon is underrated just because it needs more love...I mean no game deserves be hated in that way.

I maybe be blind for being my first FE but for a FE had his ups and downs and it was an enjoyable game for me

[Maji]

If I lose 10 skill, that is 10 hit and since most of the time in FE11, you have 80+ hit anyway, it's not the difference between 'being able to hit' and 'not being able to hit'. Skill was already not that useful before, and now it's even worse now. Being able to crit is not that helpful when crit is never really reliable anyway.

Sword users may get the benefit of the approval from me, sporting 90%s and 80%s, THEN YOU SEE AXES, 60%... 70%... highest being 80% (if you don't want to risk your luck), luckily that's where that extra 10% comes into place, eh, or Barst would be swinging like a drunken sailor 9/10 of the time.

If the game hands you a load of objects that can break the game, the solution is not to say 'well the player shouldn't use them anyway', it's bad design. You could say about any game-breaking ability or power that the player doesn't have to use them.

FE9/10!Endgame Royal Furries says hi.

Forges in FE9 do not permit any unit with C Lances to OHKO half the enemies in the game.

Max forging Wind magic anyone? Might not be OHKO, but a definite ORKO on melee units with Sage!Soren with his lolSpd.

How is anything support dependent? You don't have to use supports and they don't make a huge difference. The game is really not so difficult that you're forced into building them, ever, people frequently play without touching them. And yes, they do involve a lot more effort than FE11, but they also give much bigger boosts.

I don't get how you're forced to send squishy units to the middle of the battlefield. Most units aren't squishy, and all units have options to support durable units. Most supports are not between combatants and squishy units.

See my reasons with Red Fox of Fire, FE7's Supports are so overlooked by players that by now using them, they're making the game so much harder for themselves. But too bad they require over 9,000 turns to fully activate, eh? "Give much bigger boosts" Like you mentioned, FE11 doesn't even need supports with the reasonable calculations, but FE7 does if you plan on giving people the option to dodge things easier, so I'd argue that FE7 is pissier that way, FE11 isn't so much.

[Junkhead]

But the only furry in FE9 Endgame is Giffca.

[Florete]

Sword users may get the benefit of the approval from me, sporting 90%s and 80%s, THEN YOU SEE AXES, 60%... 70%... highest being 80% (if you don't want to risk your luck), luckily that's where that extra 10% comes into place, eh, or Barst would be swinging like a drunken sailor 9/10 of the time.

The point is that it only matters in high numbers. Yes, a 30% difference is pretty big. But that is the difference between the max and the min. A 10% is a full 1/3 of that. Meanwhile, a single point of Spd can double your offense, only a few points of Str can take you from mediocre to good, etc.

FE9/10!Endgame Royal Furries says hi.

Those are more failsafes than game-breakers on account of, you know, Endgame, not all game.

Max forging Wind magic anyone? Might not be OHKO, but a definite ORKO on melee units with Sage!Soren with his lolSpd.

Lol? What are you talking about? Soren's not doing anything special with a Wind forge on account of his durability and tough time doubling.

See my reasons with Red Fox of Fire, FE7's Supports are so overlooked by players that by now using them, they're making the game so much harder for themselves. But too bad they require over 9,000 turns to fully activate, eh? "Give much bigger boosts" Like you mentioned, FE11 doesn't even need supports with the reasonable calculations, but FE7 does if you plan on giving people the option to dodge things easier, so I'd argue that FE7 is pissier that way, FE11 isn't so much.

You are overrating FE7's supports. They are helpful, but in no way game-breaking/necessary/etc. The game is not so difficult that it can't be done without them, and it isn't very painful.

[Maji]

Ogma (without a U. Where is this U coming from?) has 11 skill. Okay, we get this. His 11 skill isn't markedly different to the sevens or whatever that are hanging around. While 11% is decent, it's NOT 11% more than anyone else, barring, like, Pirate Castor. And this is a swordsman in a game with an (allegedly; I haven't actually checked it for myself) pathetic avoid system.

Supports aren't forced in the slightest. I have no idea where you're getting this from.

From here, otherwise I'd be calling myself Axefighter Cord.

Kashim has a 40% growth in Skl meaning 4/10 he'll be plugging in Skl points, and 4/10 is a lot if you ask me. And I'm not complaining at all at having an extra +1% hit rate every level as much as the next person isn't complaining about the +1 Dmg of a Str/Mag gain.

As I said, supports in FE7 are fabulous, I don't see why no one uses them, they're what made Hard mode bearable for me.

[Maji]

The point is that it only matters in high numbers. Yes, a 30% difference is pretty big. But that is the difference between the max and the min. A 10% is a full 1/3 of that. Meanwhile, a single point of Spd can double your offence, only a few points of Str can take you from mediocre to good, etc.

So you're trying to say having a base of 11 Skl and 11% to hit isn't big?

Those are more failsafes than game-breakers on account of, you know, Endgame, not all game.

They still apply to "bad design". If you're aloud to say they're failsafes, then I am most definitely aloud to say forging a Rapier is a failsafe as well as you don't have to use dem' furries, you can if you want, but don't have to. Replace furry with Rapier and my point is gold. I play for Endgame, just so you know, midgame and earlygame honestly don't mean anything to me. I know I'm weird like that, but it's just how I see gaming as.

Lol? What are you talking about? Soren's not doing anything special with a Wind forge on account of his durability and tough time doubling.

With a 40% Spd growth, Speedwings flying out of people's asses (optional), a Wind tome, can I can ask you what you are smoking? :S

At 20/-- Average Stats point to 15/20 Spd, jus' sayin'.

You are overrating FE7's supports. They are helpful, but in no way game-breaking/necessary/etc. The game is not so difficult that it can't be done without them, and it isn't very painful.

Apparently, you didn't see the +15 Avd for Rebecca who is untouchable as is, as well as the +15 Acc for Lowen who can use axes.

It's not that I'm overrating, it's that some people are just too lazy to do calculations these days..

[Maji]

But the only furry in FE9 Endgame is Giffca.

I would say being able to turn into a giant bird is indeed a furry.

[Florete]

So you're trying to say having a base of 11 Skl and 11% to hit isn't big?

No, I'm saying the difference between 11% and 7% is negligible. 1% per point is just too small to be useful.

They still apply to "bad design". If you're aloud to say they're failsafes, then I am most definitely aloud to say forging a Rapier is a failsafe as well as you don't have to use dem' furries, you can if you want, but don't have to. Replace furry with Rapier and my point is gold. I play for Endgame, just so you know, midgame and earlygame honestly don't mean anything to me. I know I'm weird like that, but it's just how I see gaming as.

No. I don't care how you play. A forged Rapier is around all game. A Laguz royal is around for only the end, or a bit before that if you're Nailah. There is a strict difference here. One trivializes the entire game, another just the end.

With a 40% Spd growth, Speedwings flying out of people's asses (optional), a Wind tome, can I can ask you what you are smoking? :S

At 20/-- Average Stats point to 15/20 Spd, jus' sayin'.

Have you played FE9? There are plenty of ways to argue its imbalance, but Soren being broken is in completely the wrong direction. He's frail, he does not, in fact, double that much, he's immobile, and even a Wind forge will not be all that strong (though enemies have crap Res anyway). I don't know what you're trying to say about Speedwings because there are only two until the final map.

Apparently, you didn't see the +15 Avd for Rebecca who is untouchable as is, as well as the +15 Acc for Lowen who can use axes.

It's not that I'm overrating, it's that some people are just too lazy to do calculations these days..

+15 avoid for an Archer. Oh my. And when enemies in FE7 have 0 Lck and low enough Spd for Marcus to double late game on top of being mostly Lance-dominant, Lowen hitting with Axes is hardly an issue.

Seriously.

[Maji]

No, I'm saying the difference between 11% and 7% is negligible. 1% per point is just too small to be useful.

Skl would be an added bonus then I guess. I know it does nothing for my argument, but really, when you look at Axes, Barst will love that extra Skl boost, but you don't care from the sound of it. You can forge him a Weapon hit buffed axe, but wait! You spent all your money on that Ridersbane, sucks, eh?

No. I don't care how you play. A forged Rapier is around all game. A Laguz royal is around for only the end, or a bit before that if you're Nailah. There is a strict difference here. One trivializes the entire game, another just the end.

From the sound of it, I could care less how you play either. Besides, are you telling me that you use all your funds on forging? Need I remind you that forging is not cheap. Forging a Rapier and Ridersbane will ask for 31,360G for the Rapier and 33,600G for the Ridersbane which is amusingly impossible to reach until near-Endgame without:

A.) Arena Abuse (which if you do, shame on you and why don't you just 20/20 everyone and call it a day if you're going to be like that?)

B.) Hacking

And I'm assuming you don't do either, so really, you can't tell me that you OHKO every unit earlygame with forges. Besides, much like your Soren argument, on a non-normal mode, Marth is pretty squishy himself and Sedgar and Wolf don't come with an auto C in lances either.

Have you played FE9? There are plenty of ways to argue its imbalance, but Soren being broken is in completely the wrong direction. He's frail, he does not, in fact, double that much, he's immobile, and even a Wind forge will not be all that strong (though enemies have crap Res anyway). I don't know what you're trying to say about Speedwings because there are only two until the final map.

Yes, yes I have. I admit here and out that I didn't play it as much as the SFC FEs, but I still played it enough for me to say that Soren can double attack a hell of a lot with that 40% growth. :/ "Frail" 1~2 Rg says hi, you're silly if you send him out there without protection. ^_^

+15 avoid for an Archer. Oh my. And when enemies in FE7 have 0 Lck and low enough Spd for Marcus to double late game on top of being mostly Lance-dominant, Lowen hitting with Axes is hardly an issue.

Seriously.

+15 Avd for an Archer, oh my indeed, it's exactly why enemies have 0 Lck, why the hell not take advantage of that further? For Lance-dominant, isn't that all the more reason to pimp out his Acc, so he'll never miss? If you ask me, I think you're just being stubborn and don't want to admit that Supports make good to great just to argue.

:/

[Shadow Mir]

As I said, supports in FE7 are fabulous, I don't see why no one uses them, they're what made Hard mode bearable for me.

Probably because having to tether the supporters together to build support points sucks.

Edited May 25, 2011 by Metal King Slime

[Integrity]

*snip*

Marth is pretty squishy himself and Sedgar and Wolf don't come with an auto C in lances either.

Why the hell do you do Oguma and Maji but Sedgar? Consistency, dude. Either use the fantranslated FE3 names or use the American FEDS ones.

EDIT: Or the European FEDS ones. I don't even care, just use one consistent set.

Edited May 25, 2011 by Integrity

[Anouleth]

Sword users may get the benefit of the approval from me, sporting 90%s and 80%s, THEN YOU SEE AXES, 60%... 70%... highest being 80% (if you don't want to risk your luck), luckily that's where that extra 10% comes into place, eh, or Barst would be swinging like a drunken sailor 9/10 of the time.

The difference between 60% and 70% does exist, but it's not like it's the difference between 'perfect hit' and 'cannot hit anything'. Certainly, if I had the choice between dealing 10 more damage, having 10 more speed (and getting to attack twice), or having 10 more defense (and being indestructible), and having 10 more hit, I know that I would NOT pick having 10 more hit, ever.

FE9/10!Endgame Royal Furries says hi.

The Royal Laguz are good, but they are only for one chapter where you are expected to fight extremely tough enemies, and even then they need appropriate support from good beorc and intelligent to perform at their maximum. Certainly, Royals do not trivialise FE10 nearly as much as "warp Shiida, kill boss, warp Marth, seize".

Max forging Wind magic anyone? Might not be OHKO, but a definite ORKO on melee units with Sage!Soren with his lolSpd.

So Soren being able to ORKO some enemy types that he doubles (since he doesn't have great speed), but with poor durability, poor move, and needing to be babied all the way up from level 1 to promotion is somehow commensurate to base level Jeigan OHKOing half the enemies in the game?

See my reasons with Red Fox of Fire, FE7's Supports are so overlooked by players that by now using them, they're making the game so much harder for themselves. But too bad they require over 9,000 turns to fully activate, eh? "Give much bigger boosts" Like you mentioned, FE11 doesn't even need supports with the reasonable calculations, but FE7 does if you plan on giving people the option to dodge things easier, so I'd argue that FE7 is pissier that way, FE11 isn't so much.

I don't think that FE7 is so difficult that you are ever forced to abuse supports. Simple as.

Skl would be an added bonus then I guess. I know it does nothing for my argument, but really, when you look at Axes, Barst will love that extra Skl boost, but you don't care from the sound of it. You can forge him a Weapon hit buffed axe, but wait! You spent all your money on that Ridersbane, sucks, eh?

Uh, what the hell is your point? I could really care less if Barst has 80% hit instead of that 84% hit if it means that he OHKOes.

From the sound of it, I could care less how you play either. Besides, are you telling me that you use all your funds on forging? Need I remind you that forging is not cheap. Forging a Rapier and Ridersbane will ask for 31,360G for the Rapier and 33,600G for the Ridersbane which is amusingly impossible to reach until near-Endgame without:

You do not need to max out your forges, or even close. Even a base Ridersbane has about 24 mt, we do not need to go all the way up to 54 mt in order to effectively kill our enemies.

A.) Arena Abuse (which if you do, shame on you and why don't you just 20/20 everyone and call it a day if you're going to be like that?)

B.) Hacking

What a ridiculous strawman argument.

And I'm assuming you don't do either, so really, you can't tell me that you OHKO every unit earlygame with forges. Besides, much like your Soren argument, on a non-normal mode, Marth is pretty squishy himself and Sedgar and Wolf don't come with an auto C in lances either.

Which is why the top tiers of tier lists are dominated by high lance rank units such as Hardin, Jagen, Shiida, and Abel.

Yes, yes I have. I admit here and out that I didn't play it as much as the SFC FEs, but I still played it enough for me to say that Soren can double attack a hell of a lot with that 40% growth. :/ "Frail" 1~2 Rg says hi, you're silly if you send him out there without protection. ^_^

I have played it: Soren is nowhere near as OP as someone like Shiida.

+15 Avd for an Archer, oh my indeed, it's exactly why enemies have 0 Lck, why the hell not take advantage of that further? For Lance-dominant, isn't that all the more reason to pimp out his Acc, so he'll never miss? If you ask me, I think you're just being stubborn and don't want to admit that Supports make good to great just to argue.

:/

+15 avoid on an Archer is useless when they're not really exposed to attacks anyway. Crit is never really reliable or necessary. If you have 90-100 hit, more hit rate is not useful.

[Florete]

Skl would be an added bonus then I guess. I know it does nothing for my argument, but really, when you look at Axes, Barst will love that extra Skl boost, but you don't care from the sound of it. You can forge him a Weapon hit buffed axe, but wait! You spent all your money on that Ridersbane, sucks, eh?

You are missing the point. Skl is only useful in high numbers. Point for point it is virtually useless. That's why it's considered a joke, because gaining 4 points over 10 levels is just not going to make enough of a difference in performance.

From the sound of it, I could care less how you play either. Besides, are you telling me that you use all your funds on forging? Need I remind you that forging is not cheap. Forging a Rapier and Ridersbane will ask for 31,360G for the Rapier and 33,600G for the Ridersbane which is amusingly impossible to reach until near-Endgame without:

A.) Arena Abuse (which if you do, shame on you and why don't you just 20/20 everyone and call it a day if you're going to be like that?)

B.) Hacking

And I'm assuming you don't do either, so really, you can't tell me that you OHKO every unit earlygame with forges. Besides, much like your Soren argument, on a non-normal mode, Marth is pretty squishy himself and Sedgar and Wolf don't come with an auto C in lances either.

How I play doesn't mean anything, either. Good thing I never mentioned it. I only stated the facts with the games. It's been a long time since I played SD, but I recall being able to make forges plenty powerful enough and still have money to go around, and I never arena abuse or hack.

Yes, yes I have. I admit here and out that I didn't play it as much as the SFC FEs, but I still played it enough for me to say that Soren can double attack a hell of a lot with that 40% growth. :/ "Frail" 1~2 Rg says hi, you're silly if you send him out there without protection. ^_^

So Soren breaks the game by attacking one enemy per turn.

Lethal.

+15 Avd for an Archer, oh my indeed, it's exactly why enemies have 0 Lck, why the hell not take advantage of that further? For Lance-dominant, isn't that all the more reason to pimp out his Acc, so he'll never miss? If you ask me, I think you're just being stubborn and don't want to admit that Supports make good to great just to argue.

:/

+15 avoid for a unit that shouldn't get attacked. Forgive me for not being excited. And I don't know what game you've been playing, but in FE7, 98% displayed is not nearly low enough to be expecting the unit to miss. I don't give a damn about the difference between hitting all the time and hitting 498/500 times.

I think you're being stubborn and don't want to admit that supports aren't all that good/worth it.

[Shadow Mir]

How shallow do you have to be to rate a game's quality based on how attractive you find the characters?

Besides, for the time, that was some impressive shit.

...What? If you want, I could bring up more problems with it.

[Maji]

Probably because having to tether the supporters together to build support points sucks.

Which is why everyone loves FE4.

What.

[Maji]

Why the hell do you do Oguma and Maji but Sedgar? Consistency, dude. Either use the fantranslated FE3 names or use the American FEDS ones.

EDIT: Or the European FEDS ones. I don't even care, just use one consistent set.

Sorry will do.

[Rewjeo]

Are you arguing that Lowen is good because of his Rebecca support? Really? The only way he's getting that support either built up or keeping Rebecca in range to get the bonuses is if he is perpetually rescuing her, in which case I have this feeling the SPD penalty outweighs the other benefits.

Although I agree on SKL in SD. It is NOT useless. Unless you'd care to argue that 75 HIT and 90 HIT are functionally equivalent? Each point of SKL on its own is fairly pointless, sure, but then, any single point of SPD or STR is fairly useless in most situations. So is any single point of HP. How often does one point of DEF or RES really change the quality of a unit?

Overrated: FE7

Underrated: FE11

[Integrity]

EDIT: This @ Cord

You're aware that love points build moderately fast in FE4 without any adjacents, yes?

Just making sure.

EDIT: And hell, let's expand that thought to faster supports and - the clincher in support-building - Canto. Plus, supports mean rather little in Gen 2.

Edited May 25, 2011 by Integrity

[Anouleth]

Although I agree on SKL in SD. It is NOT useless. Unless you'd care to argue that 75 HIT and 90 HIT are functionally equivalent? Each point of SKL on its own is fairly pointless, sure, but then, any single point of SPD or STR is fairly useless in most situations. So is any single point of HP. How often does one point of DEF or RES really change the quality of a unit?

When I said 'useless', that was obviously hyperbole (in the same way that once you get down to brass tacks, Fiona is not 'useless', but she's damn close). Certainly, the minor difference between 75 and 90 hit given that's the effect of 15 skill is pretty low. Could you say that the effect of 15 strength, or 15 defense, or 15 speed is that low? Of course not.

[Bearissoslow]

...What? If you want, I could bring up more problems with it.

I don't really care if you do or don't like it since I've never played it in my life. All I'm saying is that something as petty as that isn't a terribly good reason in itself.