Psych Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 Also, why is Amelia lower than Marisa, especially in the Ephraim Tier list? She has 1/2-2 1/2 chapters of availability over her. She has better access to chipping and 2 range, and giving her just a few kills within 2 chapters, one of which is mainly monsters, allows her to promote. Plus I'm not even sure if the tier lists count for the Tower, since it doesn't seem included that we can't. In which case, it only strengthens her. Sure, she isn't hitting resistance for Ewan, but he only has an oh so never possible future of Summons and staffbotting. Plus she has access to a horse and 8 Move, something Marisa and Ewan never have. Ewan might get 7 with Mage Knight, and Marisa might get Silencer, but whatever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radiant Dragon Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 Ross has accurate 2-range chip? Maybe with the 50 use Hatchet. By the time the Hatchet runs out (if it does), Ross should be able to hold his own with other axes. Most likely though, Ross will be dropped long before it runs out. Also, why is Amelia lower than Marisa, especially in the Ephraim Tier list? She has 1/2-2 1/2 chapters of availability over her. She has better access to chipping and 2 range, and giving her just a few kills within 2 chapters, one of which is mainly monsters, allows her to promote. Plus I'm not even sure if the tier lists count for the Tower, since it doesn't seem included that we can't. In which case, it only strengthens her. Sure, she isn't hitting resistance for Ewan, but he only has an oh so never possible future of Summons and staffbotting. Plus she has access to a horse and 8 Move, something Marisa and Ewan never have. Ewan might get 7 with Mage Knight, and Marisa might get Silencer, but whatever. The aim is apparently a low total turn count, so using the Tower or Skirmishes is out of the question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psych Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 When did Towers and Skirmishes add to turn counts? And even so that doesn't disbar the other points she has. I'd say Amelia rules bottom or is bottom of Low-Mid and then Syrene moves up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radiant Dragon Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 When did Towers and Skirmishes add to turn counts? And even so that doesn't disbar the other points she has. I'd say Amelia rules bottom or is bottom of Low-Mid and then Syrene moves up. What other points? She's never going to be able to get experience for herself due to the combination of bad move + bad hit + bad might. Marisa can take the Shamshir, dodge Axe users reliably, and have a good crit-rate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caliban of Sycorax Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 Using the Tower/Skirmishes doesn't affect Turn Count but it counts I'd say like BEXP funneling in FE9/10. The more resources required to be good, the worse off the unit is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaoz Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 If we allowed towers, we could just compare 20/20 stats, factor in availability and be done with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caliban of Sycorax Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 Basically Lute and the Trainees to Top Tier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 (edited) I'm pretty sure that if you start chapter 2 from a chapter save, only 1 of the 4 generic brigands starting on the map has 7 AS (the one on the right on the peak), and Bone will have 6 AS. I cannot honestly believe someone just suggested using the tower. Also, in response to the above post, trainees generally don't have good 10/20/20 averages. Example: 20/20 paladin Forde beats 10/20/20 paladin Amelia. Finally, L'Arachel is worthless. Mounted physical units with 7-8 move do rescuing better (or valkyrie Natasha). Promoted staff using units do staffing better. Seeing as how the second half of the game picks up in pace, comparable to a normal playthrough, L'Arachel is both never reaching level 10 nor is she ever reaching C staves. Edited July 3, 2011 by dondon151 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 The problem is that I don't think they have uses beyond that accurate chip damage, Gilliam's bad move can be worked around somewhat since if anyone wants to get anywhere on the map early game, they'll have to rely on a rescue drop from Franz and Vanessa. Gilliam at least has means to gain exp easier compared to them (I described it in one of my earlier posts) which allows him to reach promotion to salvage his mid-game chapters. Gilliam's accuracy is still awful, but you CAN use slim lances and javelins still hit lance and sword users hard and accurately. But it's questionable efficiency-wise if we're constantly sacrificing Franz and Vanessa's turns just to have Gilliam keeping up. Also, there are hardly any sword users in chapters 2 and 3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samthedigital Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 Using the Tower/Skirmishes doesn't affect Turn Count but it counts I'd say like BEXP funneling in FE9/10. The more resources required to be good, the worse off the unit is. Using bonus experience in FE9/10 is nothing like using the tower. It takes a lot of time to level in the tower versus using bonus experience, and time is more important than turn counts. People generally use turn counts because it is the easier of the two to measure, but that doesn't mean that the element of time doesn't exist in efficiency runs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salad Utensil Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 (edited) But it's questionable efficiency-wise if we're constantly sacrificing Franz and Vanessa's turns just to have Gilliam keeping up. Also, there are hardly any sword users in chapters 2 and 3. You obviously didn't read my earlier post about how to gain EXP for Gilliam. Copy and pasted again for you: Umm...it's been repeated a lot, but Gilliam doesn't need to proc speed in order to handle those reinforcement revenants in chapter 4. @stuff that Grandkitty wrote. Since we are assuming Gilliam is being used obviously we are going to use him. If Gilliam does reach level 10 in time for a promotion he performs decently in Eirika's chapter 9 route map (and likely future route maps) if rescue dropped by a flier to the southern area, (leaving Franz open to recruit Amelia easier). If you are aiming for the lowest turncounts sometimes EXP will have to be "wasted". If Eirika didn't proc speed/str during the prologue you have leeway to give Gilliam those weakened fighters in chapter 1 and the reinforcements since Franz has to weaken the boss first to secure a 1RKO for Eirika, in chapter 2 you have the option of giving the boss kill to Gilliam since Eirika is not 1RKOing either the boss or his cohort and you need Franz to finish off the reinforcements. In chapter 3 he will have difficulty gaining levels (experience), but he can help clear enemies out of the way for your mounted units and pick off any remaining enemies before you clear the map (5 turns is a lot of time). In chapter 4, he can perform the role of killing the revenant reinforcements reliably since they 18638714214KO him (BTW Garcia faces 40ish displayed hit rates and Eirika has to weigh herself down on steel swords to 1RKO). Coming out of chapter 4 I can see Gilliam at level 7. For chapter 5, from my playthrough I used Garcia for being rescue dropped, but Gilliam might surfice as well. In chapter 6, if you don't like Lute, Natasha, Moulder, Joshua, Colm, or Artur you can choose to deploy Gilliam instead (since their roles aren't vital), you can even give Gilliam the boss kill here if Franz has proc'd enough speed to double him. In chapter 7 (Gilliam should be level 8 or 9), you can rescue drop Gilliam into the range of 2 archers and 2 soldiers (and a Bastille) and have him gain another level up (while clearing the path for Vanessa to drop Eirika). In chapter 8, Gilliam can be rescue dropped to tank shots from the steel lance armor knights in the angelic robe room. tl;dr you CAN get Gilliam to reach promotion without hurting turncounts so I just want to refute the premise that Gilliam is unable to gain experience to reach promotion by the time you get the first knight's crest (BTW Gilliam can perform these roles even if he is way below stat averages). While Gilliam doesn't 1RKO things, he does 2HKO a lot if he gets into the range of enemies (and thus defeat them on enemy phase) Taking away the knight crest is bad of course, but early promoting Franz may hurt his growth potential, which is better a 4 move unit who is terrible and a 8 unit who is excellent, but will slow down due to slow exp growth or a slightly worse Duessel (6 move unit) you can get by chapter 8-9 and a slightly underleveled, but still decent 7 move unit? Once Gilliam gets his 6 move, his movement issues are temporarily alleviated giving him long run use as well. With all due respect of course. Edited July 3, 2011 by Salad Utensil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaoz Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 But it's questionable efficiency-wise if we're constantly sacrificing Franz and Vanessa's turns just to have Gilliam keeping up. Also, there are hardly any sword users in chapters 2 and 3. I believe I outlined earlier how Gilliam can get a reasonable amound of exp in those chapters without taking any of Franz's/Vanessa's... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vykan12 Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 If we allowed towers, we could just compare 20/20 stats, factor in availability and be done with it. Why do people always have to jump to this extreme? The second an unlimited exp pool is introduced, of course it has to be abused beyond belief, right? I wouldn't object a list that allowed tower use, perhaps arbitrarily limiting the player to only use the tower once, and only when all the stages of the tower have been unlocked. Skirmishes are more of a gray zone, admittedly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 People jump to the extreme because that's what they do when debating. Don't you always do that when you're defending a character? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caliban of Sycorax Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 With massive amounts of EXP abuse there's no need for max efficiency because by that point anyone with relatively decent stats could clear the game easily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radiant Dragon Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 Since I haven't seen anyone suggest a specific place for Gilliam to move down to, allow me to take the first step: -Low- Knoll Rennac Gilliam Ross Neimi -Bottom- L'Arachel Marisa Ewan Amelia I removed Syrene and Eph. Innes because they don't belong this low. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caliban of Sycorax Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 I like this idea, but I think L'Arachel should be at least above Neimi. Neimi does nothing useful. Archy at least can heal and provides a White Gem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radiant Dragon Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 I like this idea, but I think L'Arachel should be at least above Neimi. Neimi does nothing useful. Archy at least can heal and provides a White Gem. Units aren't credited for their equipment unless they're Harken/Karel, and L'Arachel's inferior healing is more redundant than Neimi's chip early on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vykan12 Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 I found putting Rennac below Gilliam suspicious so I looked at the chests Rennac could be getting us: Eirika Route: Dragonspear, Energy Ring Ephraim Route: Angelic Robe Both routes: Runesword (useless), Spear, Tomahawk, bolting, fenrir (useless), hammerne, fortify, speedwing, talisman (useless), knight crest, guiding ring That's actually some pretty decent loot. However, some of these items (eg/ bolting) only show up in C19, so will see fairly limited use. Also, deploying Colm doesn't have any real opportunity cost, as it's rare that you'll need to use all available unit slots past midgame, and even if you do, the last few slots are for easily interchangeable filler fighters, or units who self-improve by taking on reinforcements. The other large consideration is that at least half of these will probably be missed on an efficient PT, even with both thieves being used. Nonetheless, I could see some of these stat boosters shaving turns. Dragonspear increases the # of units who can handle the swarm of wyverns in C15. Angelic robe = significant durability increase for one of your frontliners. Hammerne results in triple the amount of warp uses you have. The spear and tomahawk are clutch increases in 1-2 range for units who are borderline at killing, such as Forde and Kyle. Fortify lets you be more reckless in the last 2 maps, and so on. Still, I think people aren't giving Gilliam enough credit for his earlygame. His durability is such that he can afford to miss on occasion with the iron lance, whereas even when people like Eirika and Vanessa hit, they often need to take a vulnerary or be rescue dropped to safety. Basically, what I'm saying is Gilliam's durability compensates for his hitrates, even against axe users. This is based on a quick no-Seth playaround of the first 3 chapters, so I don't know how well he holds up afterwards. As for his mobility, C1 is such a small map it doesn't really matter, and it takes many turns anyway because there's no reliable way to dispatch of the boss quickly. The best you can do is park Franz or Eirika in front of the boss and vulnerary every player phase. C2 Eirika's best suited to handling the bandits on the left side of the map, which frees up Franz to carry Gilliam and drop him on a forest/fortress. C3 the corridors are so narrow that your units get crowded, so everyone's suffering from mobility issues. Also, Knoll needs to drop. Phantoms are useful, but they sure as hell aren't matching Gilliam's earlygame maps or Rennac's thieving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caliban of Sycorax Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 At the least I'd put Knoll below Rennac. He has better damage output than Gilliam and can promote early. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vykan12 Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 At the least I'd put Knoll below Rennac. He has better damage output than Gilliam and can promote early. Say what now? Sure, he can 2HKO unpromoted enemies at base level, but what unit can't by C15? Gilliam's earlygame damage output >>> Knoll weakening enemies that your units don't have any trouble taking out anyway. He also creates some tactical inflexibility because he literally cannot take a hit. With 0 luck (20% growth), he faces death chances from any enemy that attacks him until supports can give him CEV, which is never. He also gets 1HKOed and doubled pretty easily. Hitrate issues are a concern for him too. He has 88 hit with a flux tome, anything heavier makes his accuracy drop and his speed even more hopelessly low. Mercenaries/myrms have 30-35 avo, and most enemies easily break 20 avo, so his hitrates are *lower* than Ironlance!Gilliam's in earlygame vs fighters. Basically, Knoll is terrible, he has trainee-like combat. The only ounce of usefulness he brings is in distracting gorgons and arch mogalls with his phantoms, and similar exploits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewjeo Posted July 4, 2011 Author Share Posted July 4, 2011 (edited) Okay, done with the stupid Gilliam SPD stuff. Why? The argument basically became "If x is true, y is true" and then the other person saying "but if x isn't true, y isn't true" and me responding with "but if x is true, y is true" and then being responded to with "but if x isn't true, y isn't true!" In the end, I think it's one of those things where either you're on one side or you're on the other. I don't think it does affect where I'd place him, anyways, so there is no need to continue. Also, I don't feel like reading two pages of posts right now... Anyways, stuff on this page- I don't think L'arachel should be in bottom tier- but I could see Neimi there. As bad as 6th string healer is on a two healer team, I'd say that's better than being 923749823479834298th string combatant. As useless as L'arachel is, we DO have to assume she's being used, and when she's used she can heal. (Yes, I'm semi-conceding a point here.) I'm thinking something more like... -Low- Knoll Rennac Ross Gilliam L'arachel Neimi maybe -Bottom- Neimi maybe Marisa Ewan Amelia Also, no Tower/Ruins/Skirmishes unless we count them towards the turncount. In which case I can't imagine a situation in which the turns spent will ever be made up. Edited July 4, 2011 by Rewjeo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caliban of Sycorax Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 I still don't see how Knoll's poor combat and summoning is better than Rennac's mediocre combat, thieving, autopicks, and chest items. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darros Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 I prupose trainee characters brought to level 10/1 in the tower (trainee/first tier, obv.) so perhaps they can be more helpful. If that gets accepted, Ross is easily above Gilliam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vykan12 Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 I prupose trainee characters brought to level 10/1 in the tower (trainee/first tier, obv.) so perhaps they can be more helpful. If that gets accepted, Ross is easily above Gilliam. You could give Gilliam the same treatment to counteract the advantage Ross gets from his uber fast levelling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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