Sacred Stones No-Seth Tier List

[grandjackal]

Please understand my argument before you disagree. He's going to get a level up in chapter 1. 30% of the time this results in 4 AS. He will be used very rarely. Why not use him when he has 4 SPD only when you aren't even going out of your way to check?

Because why gamble in the first place when I don't have to? Also, to correct your statement, he's going to get a level up IF we choose to use him. Also, a lvl in chapter 1, son? He needs 4 kills to do that, that's basically all the enemies after he shows up. Are you saying we're having Franz weaken things so he can kill them individually (since they won't target Gilliam willingly unless he's the only thing in range, which case I think you're doing something errorful here)? Are we saying it's better to sink exp into Gilliam over Franz? All for 4 reinforcing units in one chapter?

Dude. I thought I hyped armors....

I'm not seeing him outside of Low Tier. I'm am 100% aware of him being garbage.

And garbage belongs in bottom. Low is for recyclables.

Sorry, I'll reword it. Why shouldn't the members of my team be fluid?

They don't have to be if that's what you mean. The problem is, we're arguing based on tier list standards here. You're free to use Gil all you want, but if you're arguing he's as good as instant barebones utility units, you're out of your gourd.

They CAN be used in absolutely every single run? Okay. Will they?

Not necessarily, but they do carry that advantage with them as to further influence me to at least consider them every now and then.

What does Gilliam have that makes me want to use him...Ever?

When you are inferior to like five other staffers, yes, you can be not useful. Especially if you also fail to have anything other than staffs going for you. I don't see how there was no point in bringing them up, either, seeing as they're better at L'arachel's job than her.

It's pointless because we are looking at your side of the argument here. You say everyone beats L'arachel at her job. This is true, but staffs are staffs. Having healing is never bad or unuseful, and thus she has instant barebones utility. How many people beat Gilliam at his job? Damn near everyone that isn't trainees, and even then the only thing separating him form them is that he has defense he can never put to good use. So if a combat unit sucks at combat and has nothing else, what can he say he has that helps us at all? L'arachel is replaceable sure, but Gilliam is downright counterintuitive.

I have three other fliers. One for a lord, two for boss killers. Is Syrene necessary? No. Would it be better to use her instead of an untrained Tana/Vanessa (or alongside them?) Possibly. Maybe not, I haven't really looked into it.

Oh, so you talk about team fluidity, and then you throw this little quote at me? Well, I'll be cute too. What if I didn't want to use more than 1 or 2 fliers up until this point in time? Syrene has an excuse then, and gets in because she has instant utility no matter what. What if I decided to sacrifice a pegasi in the name of pulling enemies towards me quicker so I can blst through them and thus the chapter quicker? Syrene's still my safety net in lategame while I was able to put a use to another pegasi to speed things up in one fashion or another (since apparently I don't need more than 2, and the game gives me 3 beforehand, allowing me some sacrificial flexibility).

Well, in the analogy, you can't, so I don't know where that's coming from.

Well it's what I get for trying to make sense of that jibberish. Here's a more accurate analogy.

There's a man who says he'll deposit your money for you at the bank, but he will run off with it 70% of the time. Would you ever give this man as much as a penny when you could just do it yourself?

[Rewjeo]

Because why gamble in the first place when I don't have to? Also, to correct your statement, he's going to get a level up IF we choose to use him. Also, a lvl in chapter 1, son? He needs 4 kills to do that, that's basically all the enemies after he shows up. Are you saying we're having Franz weaken things so he can kill them individually (since they won't target Gilliam willingly unless he's the only thing in range, which case I think you're doing something errorful here)? Are we saying it's better to sink exp into Gilliam over Franz? All for 4 reinforcing units in one chapter?

Dude. I thought I hyped armors....

Gee, if only I could get him EXP some other way... Oh, right, he has 4 turns to get EXP. And only soldiers get ORKOd, and only by Franz. If only he could also chip at enemies or fight back on enemy phase to get EXP. It's a shame that the only thing we can do to get him EXP is have him solo the reinforcements. Which we could do for the extra EXP since they are never in our way. Of course he won't actually kill all of them, but that's more EXP.

And garbage belongs in bottom. Low is for recyclables.

Is he really as bad as Marisa, Ewan, and Amelia? He can, you know, amount to something and actually save turns in a couple places.

They don't have to be if that's what you mean. The problem is, we're arguing based on tier list standards here. You're free to use Gil all you want, but if you're arguing he's as good as instant barebones utility units, you're out of your gourd.

I'd say saving turns in chapter 1, 4, and maybe a few around chapter 10 is better than L'arachel for reasons I'll address later.

Not necessarily, but they do carry that advantage with them as to further influence me to at least consider them every now and then.

That really depends on the Low Tier unit, though. I see no reason to use L'arachel. Less than Gilliam at least. Syrene, Knoll, and Rennac, however, might grab my attention. I could see Gilliam in Bottom Tier, but, IMO, L'arachel and Neimi would have to go with him, and none of those units are of the same level of uselessness as the units currently in Bottom.

What does Gilliam have that makes me want to use him...Ever?

Chapter 1. Chapter 4. GKness (sort of a mini Duessel but with no future) around midgame.

It's pointless because we are looking at your side of the argument here. You say everyone beats L'arachel at her job. This is true, but staffs are staffs. Having healing is never bad or unuseful, and thus she has instant barebones utility.

Yes, it is, because being a SIXTH STRING HEALER is not good when there is no reason to have more than two healers on the map. Say we had a bunch of healers but not very many combatants. Would Marisa be good, then, if she was our only (or one of maybe two) combatants? Yes. What if six Salehs showed up and not only did her job better, but also healed and so did something else she could never hope to do? Would she still have instant barebones utility?

How many people beat Gilliam at his job? Damn near everyone that isn't trainees, and even then the only thing separating him form them is that he has defense he can never put to good use. So if a combat unit sucks at combat and has nothing else, what can he say he has that helps us at all? L'arachel is replaceable sure, but Gilliam is downright counterintuitive.

There is quite literally one potential healer in the game that doesn't beat L'arachel at her job. Knoll. And that's actually debatable in chapter 15 since he can at least get to people. "So if a combat unit sucks at combat and has nothing else, what can he say he has that helps us at all?" Let's change that for L'arachel. So if a healer sucks at healing and has nothing else, what can she say she has that helps us at all?

Oh, so you talk about team fluidity, and then you throw this little quote at me? Well, I'll be cute too. What if I didn't want to use more than 1 or 2 fliers up until this point in time? Syrene has an excuse then, and gets in because she has instant utility no matter what. What if I decided to sacrifice a pegasi in the name of pulling enemies towards me quicker so I can blst through them and thus the chapter quicker? Syrene's still my safety net in lategame while I was able to put a use to another pegasi to speed things up in one fashion or another (since apparently I don't need more than 2, and the game gives me 3 beforehand, allowing me some sacrificial flexibility).

I'm not saying Syrene can't be helpful. I'm saying it's possible that she won't be.

Well it's what I get for trying to make sense of that jibberish. Here's a more accurate analogy.

There's a man who says he'll deposit your money for you at the bank, but he will run off with it 70% of the time. Would you ever give this man as much as a penny when you could just do it yourself?

How is that more accurate? You're assuming that we are automatically investing literally everything in Gilliam and then seeing what he does with it. We're maybe letting him get 50 EXP more than he normally would, which is only pulling that half a level away from Franz and Eirika together, and I don't either of them care all that much about 25 EXP, and seeing what he does with it. We're investing practically nothing. It's like giving the man a dollar and if he finds some way to give you 10 back, we'll feed him more. The funny thing is, we're not even feeding him that much more. After that first level up, all he needs is 5 levels and a Knight's Crest.

[grandjackal]

Gee, if only I could get him EXP some other way... Oh, right, he has 4 turns to get EXP. And only soldiers get ORKOd, and only by Franz.

There inlies the rub of your entire argument for him getting a level in chapter 1, or the idea that he saves turns. What's he doing that Franz can't do for himself?

If only he could also chip at enemies or fight back on enemy phase to get EXP.

If only we found it necessary for him to do so...

It's a shame that the only thing we can do to get him EXP is have him solo the reinforcements. Which we could do for the extra EXP since they are never in our way. Of course he won't actually kill all of them, but that's more EXP.

Or we could just...Ya know...end the mission before the reinforcements even become an issue. And even if they do become an issue, we could just have Franz do it since he's a mobile units and this is a dinky-ass map.

Is he really as bad as Marisa, Ewan, and Amelia? He can, you know, amount to something and actually save turns in a couple places.

I'd say he's actually worse than Marissa, if only because she can at least double with a Samshir, thus having a hope of actually killing something on occasion. One could argue for Gil's durability, but seriously? Who cares if he can't die? I have a million units who already can survive easy. At least Marissa can be the occasional pocket crit.

I'd say saving turns in chapter 1, 4, and maybe a few around chapter 10 is better than L'arachel for reasons I'll address later.

The existence of Franz says Gilliam does dick to help us in chapter 1, chapter 4 is your hype on a 30% chance which doesn't need to happen (and is easily replaceable. Near the reinforcements are Mountain terrain. Garcia can sit on one and has a 33 displayed hit on him from the rotten claw zombies, and 28 from the fetid one, meaning that through all 4 of them, he has about no chance of dying, and Garcia basically has the same might as Gilliam...Except he doubles 100% of the time).

As for chapter 10? Which chapter 10? Ephraim's chapter 10 is a survival map, so he can't actually save turns. Revolt in Carcino, I have no clue how you think he's saving turns in that map.

That really depends on the Low Tier unit, though. I see no reason to use L'arachel. Less than Gilliam at least. Syrene, Knoll, and Rennac, however, might grab my attention. I could see Gilliam in Bottom Tier, but, IMO, L'arachel and Neimi would have to go with him, and none of those units are of the same level of uselessness as the units currently in Bottom.

I see A reason to use L'arachel, that being a mounted healer off the bat to keep up with my horse units. L'arachel might be semi-redundant, but a use is a use. Due to this, she has a point to be used even if it's not much of an excuse. Thus, the difference, as like Neimi, Gilliam has 0 excuses.

Chapter 1. Chapter 4. GKness (sort of a mini Duessel but with no future) around midgame.

You are silly to think he does anything for chapter 1 or 4 that cannot be repeated by units that aren't awful, and if you mean to tell me the entire point of raising Gilliam is to have a unit who sucks in the future anyways then I think this argument of giving Gilliam any exp is void. Being a mini-Duessel (implying he's bascally a statistically worse version of Duessel, which he is, most notably in speed. 20/1, he's got 9 speed. To give you an idea of how bad of speed that is, that's still not doubling enemies...From chapter 2) is not just a not good thing (Duessel needs a wing, of which will not fix any of Gil's problems, not that we haven't sunk enough resources into him already), it's not even an accurate description to Gilliam's performance.

Yes, it is, because being a SIXTH STRING HEALER is not good when there is no reason to have more than two healers on the map. Say we had a bunch of healers but not very many combatants. Would Marisa be good, then, if she was our only (or one of maybe two) combatants? Yes. What if six Salehs showed up and not only did her job better, but also healed and so did something else she could never hope to do? Would she still have instant barebones utility?

Yes, cause she can keep up with our mounts to heal them without having to use Physic, along with rescue drop transport to help move foot soldiers along.

There is quite literally one potential healer in the game that doesn't beat L'arachel at her job. Knoll. And that's actually debatable in chapter 15 since he can at least get to people. "So if a combat unit sucks at combat and has nothing else, what can he say he has that helps us at all?" Let's change that for L'arachel. So if a healer sucks at healing and has nothing else, what can she say she has that helps us at all?

Rescue transport. Name me another healer who can do this without being promoted first.

I'm not saying Syrene can't be helpful. I'm saying it's possible that she won't be.

So, if we don't field her, she won't be helpful. Well no crap, I could say the same about anyone. If fielded however, she can be helpful. Now, we field Gilliam. Do tell me, where is ass combat and low move ever helpful?

How is that more accurate? You're assuming that we are automatically investing literally everything in Gilliam and then seeing what he does with it. We're maybe letting him get 50 EXP more than he normally would, which is only pulling that half a level away from Franz and Eirika together, and I don't either of them care all that much about 25 EXP, and seeing what he does with it. We're investing practically nothing.

Problem being we're investing even some slight bit (and I would think Franz cares a lot about every bit of exp he can get) for something that's easily replaceable, and could probably do future things better, and of which doesn't need any starting investment to actually pull off.

It's like giving the man a dollar and if he finds some way to give you 10 back, we'll feed him more. The funny thing is, we're not even feeding him that much more. After that first level up, all he needs is 5 levels and a Knight's Crest.

10/1 Paladin Kyle: 31.5 HP, 12.5 Str, 9 Skl, 10 Spd, 7 Lck, 13.25 Def, 3 Res, 8 Move

10/1 Paladin Forde: 29.4 HP, 9.6 Str, 11 Skl, 10.8 Spd, 8.4 Lck, 10.8 Def, 4 Res, 8 Move

10/1 GK Gilliam: 33.4 HP, 13.7 Str, 9.1 Skl, 6.8 Spd, 4.8 Lck, 14.3 Def, 5.2 Def, 6 Move

I show these two for a very specific reason. 1. They have an entire chapter all to theirselves, of which they are also the driving force since it's not like you're dependent on Orson to get it done. 5x is a rather nicely populated chapter for plentiful amounts of EXP, so essentially I'm showing that Kyle and Forde have a lot of EXP that goes almost entirely to them. Ephraim would care a bit, but A. His promotion is a long ways away, and he's so good that it's not like he has to maintain a high level to kick ass, and B. If we go Eirika's route, that exp going onto him might prove to be wasteful, since Kyle and Forde could use it over the course of their existence. They also have the left half of chapter 8. Essentially, they are stealing from no one but themselves. Kyle and Forde are also lvl 5 and 6 respectively, so they don't need as many levels either. On top of this, unpromoted, they have mounts so they will be the first in action compared to Gilliam, meaning they will get those levels far far easier.

Gilliam also has to be taking EXP from his own team of which has more people that could comparitively do better not only at the start, but throughout the course of the game(Franz, Garcia, Artur, Lute, Joshua) of which results in no change of his performance throughout the entire course of earlygame (or at least, does nto make him into something you can't easily replace, since we're apparently really harping in that 30%). Then we promote him at 10/1 over Kyle and Forde and get something that's not just a little worse, significantly worse. Kyle basically IS Gilliam with more speed. Forde might not do as much damage as Gilliam blow for blow, but I want you to notice how Forde's got exactly 4 more speed on Gilliam. That basically says that things Gilliam can't double, Forde will. It also means they're more durable, since that 4 speed means things will double Gilliam that won't double the other two. He's also doing this with 2 less move, so he's still left in the dust by them. It should also be noted that after promotion, Gilliam has 16 Con. This mean's it's impossible for any character to rescue-drop him, so even though he is up to average move now, his mobility is still limited while Kyle and Forde's are not.

Screw Mini-Duessel, he's not even a mini-Kyle. Why are we wasting our time with this fool?

[RNG Princess]

Howcome Tana is Upper Mid in Eph rout but in Eir route she's Lower Mid? At least in Eir route she isn't trapped in a room. I think she should be Upper Mid in both, and Syrene should be queen of lower mid.

[Rewjeo]

There inlies the rub of your entire argument for him getting a level in chapter 1, or the idea that he saves turns. What's he doing that Franz can't do for himself?

If only we found it necessary for him to do so...

It doesn't have to be necessary, though. We just don't have to go out of our way and put anything on the line to see if he gets SPD.

Or we could just...Ya know...end the mission before the reinforcements even become an issue. And even if they do become an issue, we could just have Franz do it since he's a mobile units and this is a dinky-ass map.

They won't become an issue. I even said "they will never be in our way." Yes, we COULD have Franz do it, but then we COULD have Gilliam get some EXP there, too.

I'd say he's actually worse than Marissa, if only because she can at least double with a Samshir, thus having a hope of actually killing something on occasion. One could argue for Gil's durability, but seriously? Who cares if he can't die? I have a million units who already can survive easy. At least Marissa can be the occasional pocket crit.

I know, it's not like Gilliam ORKOing stuff and never dieing in chapter 4 or being a high ATK tank around midgame is more helpful than having mediocre offense (that only really gets worse) and crappy defense (that never really gets better) starting around midgame. I'd argue we're dropping Gilliam before he reaches the point Marisa is at when she joins. He also exists earlygame, which automatically makes him pretty decent, too, given that he helps in chapter 4. That is certainly way more than Marisa could ever hope to do.

The existence of Franz says Gilliam does dick to help us in chapter 1, chapter 4 is your hype on a 30% chance which doesn't need to happen (and is easily replaceable. Near the reinforcements are Mountain terrain. Garcia can sit on one and has a 33 displayed hit on him from the rotten claw zombies, and 28 from the fetid one, meaning that through all 4 of them, he has about no chance of dying, and Garcia basically has the same might as Gilliam...Except he doubles 100% of the time).

What the heck? First, you change my argument slightly and respond to that, then here you completely ignore my argument to say that Gilliam is worse than Garcia? I'd rather have Garcia out of that corner, anyways, seeing as, if you don't just ignore what I'm saying, Gilliam does the job just as well.

As for chapter 10? Which chapter 10? Ephraim's chapter 10 is a survival map, so he can't actually save turns. Revolt in Carcino, I have no clue how you think he's saving turns in that map.

AROUND chapter 10. Not explicitly chapter 10 and just chapter 10.

I see A reason to use L'arachel, that being a mounted healer off the bat to keep up with my horse units. L'arachel might be semi-redundant, but a use is a use. Due to this, she has a point to be used even if it's not much of an excuse. Thus, the difference, as like Neimi, Gilliam has 0 excuses.

A: She can't keep up with your horses better than Saleh or anyone else promoted. Lute does it better. A lot of our units can have Physic, so they don't need to keep up with our mounted units.

B: 6th string healer is not semi-redundant. It's purely redundant.

C: No, there is no difference. You're pulling a double standard. Gilliam is outclassed by more combat units than will fit in our team, which isn't even true 100% of the time. L'arachel is outclassed by more healers than will fit in our team. She has no more excuse than Gilliam.

You are silly to think he does anything for chapter 1 or 4 that cannot be repeated by units that aren't awful, and if you mean to tell me the entire point of raising Gilliam is to have a unit who sucks in the future anyways then I think this argument of giving Gilliam any exp is void. Being a mini-Duessel (implying he's bascally a statistically worse version of Duessel, which he is, most notably in speed. 20/1, he's got 9 speed. To give you an idea of how bad of speed that is, that's still not doubling enemies...From chapter 2) is not just a not good thing (Duessel needs a wing, of which will not fix any of Gil's problems, not that we haven't sunk enough resources into him already), it's not even an accurate description to Gilliam's performance.

Anyone, bar Colm, Franz, Vanessa, and Eirika (for existing before someone similar shows up) fails to do things that cannot be repeated by other units. The thing is, Gilliam can do them, and in fact I would rather have him do it in chapter 4 than Garcia, while other units simply cannot do anything remotely helpful.

600 EXP and a Knight's Crest. SOOOO many resources.

I called him a mini Duessel with no future. I'd call that accurate- he's doing Duessel's immediate job, but worse, and after a few chapters he'll be dropped.

Yes, cause she can keep up with our mounts to heal them without having to use Physic, along with rescue drop transport to help move foot soldiers along.

Troubadours have 6 MOV in Sacred Stones.

Rescue transport. Name me another healer who can do this without being promoted first.

Saleh can travel just as far.

So, if we don't field her, she won't be helpful. Well no crap, I could say the same about anyone. If fielded however, she can be helpful. Now, we field Gilliam. Do tell me, where is ass combat and low move ever helpful?

Well, it's not. But then, the moments where he has GOOD combat and decent movement are helpful.

Problem being we're investing even some slight bit (and I would think Franz cares a lot about every bit of exp he can get) for something that's easily replaceable, and could probably do future things better, and of which doesn't need any starting investment to actually pull off.

Well, the only thing here that actually relates to my original point is the EXP. I don't think Franz will miss that 1.7% of the EXP we're expecting him to gain before the route split.

10/1 Paladin Kyle: 31.5 HP, 12.5 Str, 9 Skl, 10 Spd, 7 Lck, 13.25 Def, 3 Res, 8 Move

10/1 Paladin Forde: 29.4 HP, 9.6 Str, 11 Skl, 10.8 Spd, 8.4 Lck, 10.8 Def, 4 Res, 8 Move

10/1 GK Gilliam: 33.4 HP, 13.7 Str, 9.1 Skl, 6.8 Spd, 4.8 Lck, 14.3 Def, 5.2 Def, 6 Move

I show these two for a very specific reason. 1. They have an entire chapter all to theirselves, of which they are also the driving force since it's not like you're dependent on Orson to get it done. 5x is a rather nicely populated chapter for plentiful amounts of EXP, so essentially I'm showing that Kyle and Forde have a lot of EXP that goes almost entirely to them. Ephraim would care a bit, but A. His promotion is a long ways away, and he's so good that it's not like he has to maintain a high level to kick ass, and B. If we go Eirika's route, that exp going onto him might prove to be wasteful, since Kyle and Forde could use it over the course of their existence. They also have the left half of chapter 8. Essentially, they are stealing from no one but themselves. Kyle and Forde are also lvl 5 and 6 respectively, so they don't need as many levels either. On top of this, unpromoted, they have mounts so they will be the first in action compared to Gilliam, meaning they will get those levels far far easier.

Gilliam also has to be taking EXP from his own team of which has more people that could comparitively do better not only at the start, but throughout the course of the game(Franz, Garcia, Artur, Lute, Joshua) of which results in no change of his performance throughout the entire course of earlygame (or at least, does nto make him into something you can't easily replace, since we're apparently really harping in that 30%). Then we promote him at 10/1 over Kyle and Forde and get something that's not just a little worse, significantly worse. Kyle basically IS Gilliam with more speed. Forde might not do as much damage as Gilliam blow for blow, but I want you to notice how Forde's got exactly 4 more speed on Gilliam. That basically says that things Gilliam can't double, Forde will. It also means they're more durable, since that 4 speed means things will double Gilliam that won't double the other two. He's also doing this with 2 less move, so he's still left in the dust by them. It should also be noted that after promotion, Gilliam has 16 Con. This mean's it's impossible for any character to rescue-drop him, so even though he is up to average move now, his mobility is still limited while Kyle and Forde's are not.

Screw Mini-Duessel, he's not even a mini-Kyle. Why are we wasting our time with this fool?

I'm so glad that someone has made such logical points. I am done arguing Gilliam to the top of High Tier.

Oh. Wait. I'm not. This is not remotely related to my point.

@Elincia: I've wondered the same thing. She is literally positioned perfectly to nab the chapter 9 Rapier in Eir. Route, while in Ephraim's she does nothing. My guess is it has to do with later chapters.

Edit: Okay, let me explain my point right here. None of this other clutter. In chapter 1, we do not have to waste any time to get Gilliam a level. 30% of the time, he will gain SPD. He will be used so rarely that I see no reason to not only use him when this happens when we don't have to do much (hardly anything) to check. This makes him very good in chapter 4, and he will gain plenty of EXP. Then, between chapters 5,6, and maybe 8 we only have to get him to level 10, and he should have gained plenty of EXP by now. I think it would be fairly easy to do that. Promote him. Have a tanky guy for a while. When he starts doing poorly, drop him. If you want to argue against this, tell me...

...why we should decide to use him and then continue whether or not he gets SPD.

...why he can't get enough EXP.

...how we won't actually be good around midgame.

...maybe something else that relates directly to this point.

Edited July 3, 2011 by Rewjeo

[grandjackal]

I'm getting sick of this argument, mainly because you seem to be plugging your ears and repeating yourself as loudly as you can, or sidestepping points. But whatever, let's get to it.

It doesn't have to be necessary, though. We just don't have to go out of our way and put anything on the line to see if he gets SPD.

Repeated point #1. I am done arguing how this notion is silly. You're arguing a 1evel we are clearly spoiling him with for a 30% chance to do 1 minor thing when we absolutely do not need to gamble in the first place, and then continues to be a complete waste of EXP.

They won't become an issue. I even said "they will never be in our way." Yes, we COULD have Franz do it, but then we COULD have Gilliam get some EXP there, too.

We could, but why SHOULD we? Why do we NEED to? Why do we NEED to gamble 100 Exp on Gilliam (that we're spoonfeeding to him no less) when we just simply don't need to? It's a waste for next to no profit.

I know, it's not like Gilliam ORKOing stuff and never dieing in chapter 4 or being a high ATK tank around midgame is more helpful than having mediocre offense (that only really gets worse) and crappy defense (that never really gets better) starting around midgame.

You're right, it isn't more helpful, because A. We're never dying in the first place, B. You are again delusional in thinking he's ORKOing things in chapter 4 by some magical 30% gamble you're now automatically assuming always succeeds and I would like for you to stop repeating it. and C. We don't need a high attack tank when we need things that kill shit. Gilliam fails to kill shit due to his speed. No one with a functioning brain will have people die in this game unless they're trying to on purpose. Essentially the only thing that really separates them is that Marissa has 2 chances to crit with a crit weapon while Gil's only got 1, and Marissa has 1 more move

I'd argue we're dropping Gilliam before he reaches the point Marisa is at when she joins. He also exists earlygame, which automatically makes him pretty decent, too, given that he helps in chapter 4. That is certainly way more than Marisa could ever hope to do.

Existing earlygame does not automatically make you good, it just means you exist, and I'm not the only one who would argue that Gilliam does nothing with this existence. And again, please stop with chapter 4, you are obsessing over it to the level of insanity.

But hey, if you wanna play the game of "Lunacy makes my argument right", let's do it! I can hype to! Let's start with how in chapter 11 Eirika route that Marissa can take her Samshir and park her ass on a forest to the south to mow through zombies and other punks, and have her chew her way down south while the rest of our forces move east. With her crits and doubling, she can potentially go through the south part on her own (with some healing items of course, mainly using the avoid boost from the forests since zombies can't hit shit), and as long as she finishes them off at around the time we kill the last enemies in the east (some ranged folks can take can take care of the zombie and skeleton near the chest), she can basically save us turns, possibly all on her own.

She also needed no exp to be able to do this, unlike Gil for his simple 4 dudes, of whom he still can't70% of the time. LowTierMarissaplzkthxbai.

See, doesn't it sound ridiculous?

What the heck? First, you change my argument slightly and respond to that, then here you completely ignore my argument to say that Gilliam is worse than Garcia? I'd rather have Garcia out of that corner, anyways, seeing as, if you don't just ignore what I'm saying, Gilliam does the job just as well.

You've yet to give me a solid reason as to why I should listen to your whole chapter 4 bullshit. I'm not going to gamble for what is essentially no reason.

AROUND chapter 10. Not explicitly chapter 10 and just chapter 10.

Oh, well why didn't you just say chapter 9 or 11? Is it because perhaps you're just pulling things out of your ass? Enlighten me then, how does he do it? What does he do that apparently saves us "some turns"?

A: She can't keep up with your horses better than Saleh or anyone else promoted. Lute does it better. A lot of our units can have Physic, so they don't need to keep up with our mounted units.

I was unaware Saleh had 7 move or that our mounts weren't promoted yet, or that Lute had promoted already, and Physic can be saved with L'arachel for when people are on flier missions, since a horse alone can't jump you over terrain.

B: 6th string healer is not semi-redundant. It's purely redundant.

Repeated Point #2. Redundant is still a use, and it still beats useless.

C: No, there is no difference. You're pulling a double standard. Gilliam is outclassed by more combat units than will fit in our team, which isn't even true 100% of the time.

Who does Gilliam beat offensively outside of Neimi and the trainees, of which I'm sure Ross could say he's got arguably better because his leveling speed saves his ass.

L'arachel is outclassed by more healers than will fit in our team. She has no more excuse than Gilliam.

You've yet to disuade me on this notion. She has a niche utilic role, and that cannot be argued against, and is something Gillaim lacks, along with everything else.

Anyone, bar Colm, Franz, Vanessa, and Eirika (for existing before someone similar shows up) fails to do things that cannot be repeated by other units. The thing is, Gilliam can do them, and in fact I would rather have him do it in chapter 4 than Garcia, while other units simply cannot do anything remotely helpful.

You would rather have someone unreliable do this small task over someone who's not only reliable, but has a future thanks to the Hero class?

600 EXP and a Knight's Crest. SOOOO many resources.

When you start being insanely awful and you use these resources to still be awful then yes, that is a lot of resources. I'll explain why in a poitn down below.

I called him a mini Duessel with no future. I'd call that accurate- he's doing Duessel's immediate job, but worse, and after a few chapters he'll be dropped.

Uhhh...You realize Duessel's immediate job is to eat a wing and proceed to shit death all over the enemy, right? Gilliam doesn't sound like he replicates that performance at all, or even slightly resembles it...Ever.

Troubadours have 6 MOV in Sacred Stones.

Eh? *Double checks* ...Well I'll be damned, they do. Odd design decision I guess. However,my point still stands, as most of your force is most likely unpromoted, and on occasion 6 move is better than 5 (and is a shitton better than 4, in case someone like that would need transportation to actually get into battle. But who's crazy enough to think about using such a unit? Ha! Ludicrous). This transportation can also help in cases of needing to transport our lord somewhere when our fighter mounts have combat to do, and don't wanna get weighed down.

Well, it's not. But then, the moments where he has GOOD combat and decent movement are helpful.

You clearly have no clue what good combat is if you think Gilliam has a moment where he has good combat.

Well, the only thing here that actually relates to my original point is the EXP. I don't think Franz will miss that 1.7% of the EXP we're expecting him to gain before the route split.

Considering we're dumping it into a unit for a gamble he is more than likely to lose when it helps Franz be even greater sooner, I would be deeply upset.

I'm so glad that someone has made such logical points. I am done arguing Gilliam to the top of High Tier.

Oh. Wait. I'm not. This is not remotely related to my point.

It is related to the point, because you are ignoring competition. Gilliam has to compete for EXP with the best unit in the game, and has to compete for a crest compared to three guys who clearly beat his ass, 2 of them basically getting to that point for free. We can't just compare Gilliam in a void where only he and faceless somebodies exist as our army. It's made even worse by the fact he has to compete with guys who promote into paladins. Are we going to say they might not be in the army? If this is the case, you're basically throwing efficiency out the window so one man may continue to suck.

Rewjeo repeats himself a second time in the same post, and is again not convincing in the slightest

I think we're done here. I've answered those last questions of yours several times already, and you simply won't listen, opting instead for taking me for a ride on the Circular Logic Roller Coaster. Gilliam's only going down to bottom alone, and nothing will convince me he's not bottom tier, especially with these cardboard arguments you keep raving on about. I'm not going to reduce intelligent discussion down to a shouting contest, of which this is slowly devolving into. I'm through taking this seriously, and will simply walk away before this gets any worse.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

I think we're done here. I've answered those last questions of yours several times already, and you simply won't listen, opting instead for taking me for a ride on the Circular Logic Roller Coaster. Gilliam's only going down to bottom alone, and nothing will convince me he's not bottom tier, especially with these cardboard arguments you keep raving on about. I'm not going to reduce intelligent discussion down to a shouting contest, of which this is slowly devolving into. I'm through taking this seriously, and will simply walk away before this gets any worse.

I prefer the term "Penrose Argument". A series of impossibly stupid arguments where the last argument loops perfectly into the first, creating a circular loop so stupid that no intelligent discussion can escape.

P.S.: Gilliam needs to get incredibly lucky on his first level up, which he may well never get (even without using Seth, Gilliam is hard pressed to get any levels ever), just to provide the level of "utility" that every single other character on your team is capable of providing. Regardless of how he may (or may not) perform should he be granted this astronomically improbable boon, the fact of the matter is that he's not getting it in the average playthrough.

A unit who relies on luck and the redirection of a non-insignificant amount of resources in his direction (600 EXP is a big deal when better units are competing for it and Eirika needs all the EXP she can get while she still can), and you have three other units that are extremely deserving of the Knight Crest before him) in order to be merely extremely mediocre, and without said resources is an unsalvageable pile of scrap metal and broken dreams, is the definition of "bottom tier".

Edited July 3, 2011 by Seven Deadly Sins

[Kaoz]

I don't really care, but...

We could, but why SHOULD we? Why do we NEED to? Why do we NEED to gamble 100 Exp on Gilliam (that we're spoonfeeding to him no less) when we just simply don't need to? It's a waste for next to no profit.

I thought we assume that we actually use the unit we want to tier? Surely, if we actively use Gilliam he can get those 100 Exp (not that he necessarily needs the Spd proc. on that level as others pointed out before)?

Also, comparing him to Franz, Forde or Kyle is pretty useless, of course he'll be much worse. That's the reason they are Top/High tier and he's Low/Bottom (probably Bottom, but w/e).

[grandjackal]

I thought we assume that we actually use the unit we want to tier? Surely, if we actively use Gilliam he can get those 100 Exp (not that he necessarily needs the Spd proc. on that level as others pointed out before)?

Which case the question is when does he get this 100exp? The answer,when you consider the competition for exp, ass combat, 4 move and no future, the answer is not soon.

Also, comparing him to Franz, Forde or Kyle is pretty useless, of course he'll be much worse. That's the reason they are Top/High tier and he's Low/Bottom (probably Bottom, but w/e).

He's competing with them for an early knight crest. They become relevant via competition for the promotion.

Edited July 3, 2011 by Grandkitty

[dondon151]

A unit who relies on luck and the redirection of a non-insignificant amount of resources in his direction (600 EXP is a big deal when better units are competing for it and Eirika needs all the EXP she can get while she still can), and you have three other units that are extremely deserving of the Knight Crest before him) in order to be merely extremely mediocre, and without said resources is an unsalvageable pile of scrap metal and broken dreams, is the definition of "bottom tier".

Half the cast is bottom tier.

High tier arguments don't work when we're trying to figure out who wins the Fire Emblem equivalent of the Special Olympics.

[Kaoz]

Which case the question is when does he get this 100exp? The answer,when you consider the competition for exp, ass combat, 4 move and no future, the answer is not soon.

Why not? He can get at least 65 exp in his joining chapter, a bit more than that if Eirika didn't proc Str on her first two level ups. Then he can probably chip some bandits in chapter 2 and I don't see a reason why you couldn't let him kill the one that guards the Javelin chest in chapter 3. That should be more than enough for a level.

He's competing with them for an early knight crest. They become relevant via competition for the promotion.

It's just kinda redundant to make that comparision in the first place. Everyone knows that Gilliam is way worse than them.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Well yeah, but think of it this way.

You've come across this ad for Gilliam Bojangles, the amazing magician! For just 100 bucks, he'll perform an amazing trick. A trick so amazing, it only works a mere 30% of the time! Still, you're willing to give it a shot. You shell out the 100 bucks, and it's a dud the first time. However, lucky you, the next time you do it, it works! Gilliam gets up on stage, and everyone files in... then he throws down a smoke bomb and disappears. Oh, and everyone's wallets are missing.

Even if he hits his 4 Speed (big if), all it does is give him the ability to steal a non-insignificant amount of EXP in the form of Chapter 4's reinforcements, which aren't even hard to deal with or anything. Then, once he performs this feat, he disappears. Or at least he might as well. When the chapters start getting bigger and your mounts finally come together, Gilliam stops being, well... good. At all. He fails offensively, he's too far behind to do anything relevant defensively, and he's just a mess. Suddenly all that experience you gave him is gone into the ether, and competent units like Franz, Artur, Lute, Vanessa, and Eirika (who needs everything she can get early on) are left holding the bag.

The units found in Low Tier have the potential to have one shining moment of awesome, or at least of "not-terrible". Knoll summons free meatshields that can be used to annoy the AI. Rennac can pick locks and open chests and stuff, which can be useful if your Colm is some kind of superhero face-puncher who's needed in combat or there's too much treasure for one extremely greedy asshole to make off with on the map. Syrene flies and has a horse in a chapter where there's a lot of annoying terrain. L'Arachel can rescue people if need be and also has a shiny heal staff. Ephraim Route Innes at least has effective might against flyers and good weapon ranking.

The bottom tier characters have none of this, and no hope of achieving anything notable. Gilliam's the only one with any semblance of potential (being decent in Chapter 4), but even if he does achieve it, you're still in the same place you were before, wondering what it accomplished in the long run. Unfortunately, it was nothing.

Edited July 3, 2011 by Seven Deadly Sins

[Kaoz]

The units found in Low Tier have the potential to have one shining moment of awesome, or at least of "not-terrible". Knoll summons free meatshields that can be used to annoy the AI. Rennac can pick locks and open chests and stuff, which can be useful if your Colm is some kind of superhero face-puncher who's needed in combat or there's too much treasure for one extremely greedy asshole to make off with on the map. Syrene flies and has a horse in a chapter where there's a lot of annoying terrain. L'Arachel can rescue people if need be and also has a shiny heal staff. Ephraim Route Innes at least has effective might against flyers and good weapon ranking.

Exactly. So, for starters, why are these guys below Ross and Neimi (possibly Dozla as well)? I would argue that Gilliam in low is not really a problem, but rather that those guys should swap places with a few of the lower mid tier units.

[Salad Utensil]

Well yeah, but think of it this way.

You've come across this ad for Gilliam Bojangles, the amazing magician! For just 100 bucks, he'll perform an amazing trick. A trick so amazing, it only works a mere 30% of the time! Still, you're willing to give it a shot. You shell out the 100 bucks, and it's a dud the first time. However, lucky you, the next time you do it, it works! Gilliam gets up on stage, and everyone files in... then he throws down a smoke bomb and disappears. Oh, and everyone's wallets are missing.

Even if he hits his 4 Speed (big if), all it does is give him the ability to steal a non-insignificant amount of EXP in the form of Chapter 4's reinforcements, which aren't even hard to deal with or anything. Then, once he performs this feat, he disappears. Or at least he might as well. When the chapters start getting bigger and your mounts finally come together, Gilliam stops being, well... good. At all. He fails offensively, he's too far behind to do anything relevant defensively, and he's just a mess. Suddenly all that experience you gave him is gone into the ether, and competent units like Franz, Artur, Lute, Vanessa, and Eirika (who needs everything she can get early on) are left holding the bag.

The units found in Low Tier have the potential to have one shining moment of awesome, or at least of "not-terrible". Knoll summons free meatshields that can be used to annoy the AI. Rennac can pick locks and open chests and stuff, which can be useful if your Colm is some kind of superhero face-puncher who's needed in combat or there's too much treasure for one extremely greedy asshole to make off with on the map. Syrene flies and has a horse in a chapter where there's a lot of annoying terrain. L'Arachel can rescue people if need be and also has a shiny heal staff. Ephraim Route Innes at least has effective might against flyers and good weapon ranking.

The bottom tier characters have none of this, and no hope of achieving anything notable. Gilliam's the only one with any semblance of potential (being decent in Chapter 4), but even if he does achieve it, you're still in the same place you were before, wondering what it accomplished in the long run. Unfortunately, it was nothing.

Umm...it's been repeated a lot, but Gilliam doesn't need to proc speed in order to handle those reinforcement revenants in chapter 4.

@stuff that Grandkitty wrote.

Since we are assuming Gilliam is being used obviously we are going to use him.

If Gilliam does reach level 10 in time for a promotion he performs decently in Eirika's chapter 9 route map (and likely future route maps) if rescue dropped by a flier to the southern area, (leaving Franz open to recruit Amelia easier). If you are aiming for the lowest turncounts sometimes EXP will have to be "wasted". If Eirika didn't proc speed/str during the prologue you have leeway to give Gilliam those weakened fighters in chapter 1 and the reinforcements since Franz has to weaken the boss first to secure a 1RKO for Eirika, in chapter 2 you have the option of giving the boss kill to Gilliam since Eirika is not 1RKOing either the boss or his cohort and you need Franz to finish off the reinforcements. In chapter 3 he will have difficulty gaining levels (experience), but he can help clear enemies out of the way for your mounted units and pick off any remaining enemies before you clear the map (5 turns is a lot of time). In chapter 4, he can perform the role of killing the revenant reinforcements reliably since they 18638714214KO him (BTW Garcia faces 40ish displayed hit rates and Eirika has to weigh herself down on steel swords to 1RKO). Coming out of chapter 4 I can see Gilliam at level 7. For chapter 5, from my playthrough I used Garcia for being rescue dropped, but Gilliam might surfice as well. In chapter 6, if you don't like Lute, Natasha, Moulder, Joshua, Colm, or Artur you can choose to deploy Gilliam instead (since their roles aren't vital), you can even give Gilliam the boss kill here if Franz has proc'd enough speed to double him. In chapter 7 (Gilliam should be level 8 or 9), you can rescue drop Gilliam into the range of 2 archers and 2 soldiers (and a Bastille) and have him gain another level up (while clearing the path for Vanessa to drop Eirika). In chapter 8, Gilliam can be rescue dropped to tank shots from the steel lance armor knights in the angelic robe room.

tl;dr you CAN get Gilliam to reach promotion without hurting turncounts so I just want to refute the premise that Gilliam is unable to gain experience to reach promotion by the time you get the first knight's crest (BTW Gilliam can perform these roles even if he is way below stat averages). While Gilliam doesn't 1RKO things, he does 2HKO a lot if he gets into the range of enemies (and thus defeat them on enemy phase)

Taking away the knight crest is bad of course, but early promoting Franz may hurt his growth potential, which is better a 4 move unit who is terrible and a 8 unit who is excellent, but will slow down due to slow exp growth or a slightly worse Duessel (6 move unit) you can get by chapter 8-9 and a slightly underleveled, but still decent 7 move unit? Once Gilliam gets his 6 move, his movement issues are temporarily alleviated giving him long run use as well.

With all due respect of course.

Edited July 3, 2011 by Salad Utensil

[RNG Princess]

@Salad_Utensil

Ch.2 is dominated by axe users, he'll have trouble hitting the enemy since he has the worst hit in that chapter. Seems like he'll require luck here.

Ch.3 Enemies can double him, ive seen it happen but even if they didn't how will he reach the boss? I assume Vanessa is ferrying him, and once he reaches the boss he'll need luck hitting him.

Ch.5 he has move issues, but I can see him ferried around.

Ch.6 his move is a big deal, Vanessa can't just ferry him freely, we want her safe. He also faces danger of being doubled by the enemy mage.

Also commenting on L'Arachel, she's a primary healer for a chapter or two. 11A/B she may as well heal/torch after being recruited. Then for Ch.14A/B when she recruits Rennac, I can see her healing throughout the chapter.

Edited July 3, 2011 by Queen_Elincia

[Shadow Mir]

@Salad_Utensil

Ch.2 is dominated by axe users, he'll have trouble hitting the enemy since he has the worst hit in that chapter. Seems like he'll require luck here.

Ch.3 bandits can double him, ive seen it happen but even if they didn't how will he reach the boss? I assume Vanessa is ferrying him, and once he reaches the boss he'll need luck hitting him.

Ch.5 he has move issues, but I can see him ferried around.

Ch.6 his move is a big deal, Vanessa can't just ferry him freely, we want her safe. He also faces danger of being doubled by the enemy mage.

Also commenting on L'Arachel, she's a primary healer for a chapter or two. 11A/B she may as well heal/torch after being recruited. Then for Ch.14A/B when she recruits Rennac, I can see her healing throughout the chapter.

WRT chapter 2: And it gets worse if some bandits proc 7 speed.

[RNG Princess]

I think it would be easier raising Ross/Neimi than Gilliam but I'm just assuming.

[Salad Utensil]

@Salad_Utensil

Ch.2 is dominated by axe users, he'll have trouble hitting the enemy since he has the worst hit in that chapter. Seems like he'll require luck here.

Ch.3 Enemies can double him, ive seen it happen but even if they didn't how will he reach the boss? I assume Vanessa is ferrying him, and once he reaches the boss he'll need luck hitting him.

Ch.5 he has move issues, but I can see him ferried around.

Ch.6 his move is a big deal, Vanessa can't just ferry him freely, we want her safe. He also faces danger of being doubled by the enemy mage.

Also commenting on L'Arachel, she's a primary healer for a chapter or two. 11A/B she may as well heal/torch after being recruited. Then for Ch.14A/B when she recruits Rennac, I can see her healing throughout the chapter.

Ch 2:I would consider giving him Vanessa's slim lance in this chapter (75ish displayed isn't awful) for the extra hit and he's mostly either finishing off enemies or weakening, 7AS brigand are rare to be honest, I've never encountered them although I know they exist and this can be worked around, by just not having him fight them.

Chapter 3: He is never going to reach the boss, it's not worth it. I was just referring to the fact that he can pick up kills here and there, for example the hand axe brigand (that starts away from you) can mostly be ignored in my 5 turn strategy so anyone can pick up the kill if they want it. Also the brigand with the chest key or the theif is an option too.

Chapter 5: See my playthrough of chapter 5, Garcia's role CAN be replicated (though Gilliam has worse hit here), though it'd depend on his and Artur/Lute's level ups (i.e. lots of strength level ups, if Gilliam is level 7 he should have 3.9AS anyway and I've never seen any 8AS fighters before in this chapter).

Chapter 6: Joshua's only use in this chapter for me is weakening the boss for Franz, anyone can do this (Franz can rescue any strong non-mage unit that can survive 18 attack hitting res and it'll work out decently), again this will depend on Franz's speed/str. The mage is nothing to worry about since Gilliam will never fight it. See my chapter 6 playthrough strategy, Vanessa doesn't ferry this chapter besides rescue dropping Garcia on the mountain, Franz does the ferrying.

We aren't comparing apples to apples here since it doesn't make sense to have Gilliam attack the mage when you could have Garcia do it instead. I don't think a tier list should assume we have the unit face every enemy type on a map because it's illogical to use Gilliam against the mage or 7AS brigand, when someone more suited for the role can. Instead it should reflect if a unit is able to perform specific duties that/when are applicable to lower turncount. Honestly except route maps, you can bypass a lot of enemies that you have no business facing, you only HAVE to face the ones that impede your process to the boss/throne. Everything else is for the last turn to squeeze out some exp.

The tier list should not reflect a unit X solo since you are using around 8-17 characters in any given chapter. The above has a ton of Gilliam sandbagging posts when a lot of them don't make ANY SENSE at all when you actually play the game. In other words, why use Gilliam to fight a 7AS brigand when there is a 5AS brigand right next to him, let Eirika/Franz/Vanessa/Garcia/Colm/Lute/Artur handle it. If all/most brigand/fighters had 7AS then the story would be a bit different.

Edited July 3, 2011 by Salad Utensil

[Radiant Dragon]

Unless someone is trying to argue Gilliam isn't Low Tier, I don't see the point of the mudslinging between Grandjackal and Rewjeo.

Gilliam has some early-game use due to nature of existing and forced deployment, and can handle the Ch.4 reinforcements at base level (just because others do it better does not mean Gilliam can't). This is obviously > Bottom Tier (who have no use whatsoever), and maybe better than L'Arachel's redundant existence (we already have Saleh, Knoll and Moulder/Natasha as 6 move healers). The Bottom of Low Tier sounds fine for him.

[Salad Utensil]

Unless someone is trying to argue Gilliam isn't Low Tier, I don't see the point of the mudslinging between Grandjackal and Rewjeo.

Gilliam has some early-game use due to nature of existing and forced deployment, and can handle the Ch.4 reinforcements at base level (just because others do it better does not mean Gilliam can't). This is obviously > Bottom Tier (who have no use whatsoever), and maybe better than L'Arachel's redundant existence (we already have Saleh, Knoll and Moulder/Natasha as 6 move healers). The Bottom of Low Tier sounds fine for him.

Low tier seems fine, although I think he should be above Ross and Neimi at least (who I think need to go to bottom tier).

[Radiant Dragon]

Low tier seems fine, although I think he should be above Ross and Neimi at least (who I think need to go to bottom tier).

Well, they have accurate 2-range chip, letting our other units avoid counters (Eirika and Vanessa come to mind here). They're not Bottom Tier, but probably could move below Gilliam.

And why is Syrene still in Low Tier?

Edited July 3, 2011 by Radiant Kitty

[Psych]

Well, they have accurate 2-range chip, letting our other units avoid counters (Eirika and Vanessa come to mind here). They're not Bottom Tier, but probably could move below Gilliam.

And why is Syrene still in Low Tier?

Ross has accurate 2-range chip? Maybe with the 50 use Hatchet.

[RNG Princess]

Ross has accurate 2-range chip? Maybe with the 50 use Hatchet.

Yes he does especially in Chapter 2, and in Chapter 3 too I think.

and I agree with almost everything Radiant Kitty said, personally I think L'Arachel > Gilliam.

Edited July 3, 2011 by Queen_Elincia

[Psych]

Yeah, but read back over the past few pages. She's sort of just redundant. Till chapter 4 Gilliam has better or equal combat than Ross, Vanessa, Garcia, Colm, or Neimi. He's tankier than all of them though, but all except Ross has more move than him. Vannessa only has flight over him, and Colm has a Neimi support and Thief utility.

L'archel however, never has a real shot at promotion either.

[Salad Utensil]

Well, they have accurate 2-range chip, letting our other units avoid counters (Eirika and Vanessa come to mind here). They're not Bottom Tier, but probably could move below Gilliam.

And why is Syrene still in Low Tier?

The problem is that I don't think they have uses beyond that accurate chip damage, Gilliam's bad move can be worked around somewhat since if anyone wants to get anywhere on the map early game, they'll have to rely on a rescue drop from Franz and Vanessa. Gilliam at least has means to gain exp easier compared to them (I described it in one of my earlier posts) which allows him to reach promotion to salvage his mid-game chapters.

Gilliam's accuracy is still awful, but you CAN use slim lances and javelins still hit lance and sword users hard and accurately.

Edited July 3, 2011 by Salad Utensil