QUINTESSENCE? DONT UNDERSTAND

[Othin]

Othin, regarding your objections regarding war, let me put it to you this way. Even if Nergal ONLY wants quintessence and is not a conflicted villain on his insides - and I believe he is, all things considered, the urge to bring chaos is itself chaotic since one can never achieve precisely the chaos one WANTS, same on the order side of things - then he still has to put on appearances in order to keep control of the Black Fang. It's not like Lloyd, Linus or Brendan are going to be happy following his orders. Possibly even the assholes wouldn't be happy if they thought he was going to bring dragons back, aside from some special cases like Kenneth...

Perhaps... which raises the question of why they'd even have to know, or again, what the purpose is of killing the prince if not to cause chaos.

Not that they were going to prevent that chaos properly anyway.

Sonia:

Once you've killed the prince, kill Nino, too.

Jaffar:

What!?

Sonia:

The assassinations… Both come directly by the king's request. The prince is well loved, and his death will trigger much chaos. If the assassin is not caught and hanged immediately, the chaos will engulf Bern. A scapegoat is needed. Do you understand?

Read that a few times and see if you can spot the problem.

BTW can I assume you thought my argument regarding Aion was at least reasonably persuasive? I am surprised I even had that insight, so I was hoping you would give some sort of response.

(Essentially, it was that Aion didn't attack Kishuna becaues the guards aroudn Kishuna were too tough)

Sure, let's go with that.

Oops. I got the order of events wrong! I thought he captured Lucia before she returned to Elincia! Turns out Ludveck wasn't sure Lucia was after any evidence in the caves of all places, I guess he thought he hid that stuff better than he really did, or thought the guards that found Lucia would be sufficient.

However, the fact that he managed to capture Lucia so easily (see 2-2 end IIRC) suggests that he already did have the plan in place to send the best of his forces in an offensive to capture Elincia before Geoffrey could catch up to him.

I believe it was 2-3 end... either way, I don't even remember what's being proven by this anyway, so whatever.

I suppose the issue here is that Legault is an optional recruitment, and thus making him a necessary component to a chapter can't be done, so a Legault-required 25H or so wouldn't have worked out. The death system in FE sometimes interferes with the plot like this. There isn't any reason Leagult has to know where the current Black Fang base is (there are several possible explanations for this), so it's not a plot hole.

However, making him lead to a route split could be done.

The problem here is that apparently Legault knew the previous location, the location changed, Legault was aware of the change but was not told to where, and he somehow became certain that there wasn't anything that could possibly gained from going to the old base, and he didn't even suggest that an old base existed at all.

Legault:

Yes. Black Fang's headquarters are here in Bern. The location was never disclosed to me, though. The Black Fang is so much different than it once was. Any information we could gain would be beneficial.

That doesn't sound like he's saying he didn't find about a change in location; it sounds like he's saying he never knew any location of the headquarters. That in mind, I find that combination of things to believe with such little evidence too much of a stretch.

You might be overrating the information gathering capabilities of the other Lycian lords. Given the setting, information travel should not be especially fast (unless warping is involved, which I doubt it would for something like this). By the time news of Araphen reaches another nation, Lyn could be fighting Eagler or something.

By the time news of Lundgren's request could get somewhere, so could news of the attack on Araphen - it's not exactly an insignificant event, even if Araphen himself decided to stay silent about it for no good reason. And if news is traveling that slow, it would probably also happen that Lundgren's request would be the first time any of the other marquesses would become aware that he had suddenly taken control of Caelin, which should certainly cause them at least hesitation before jumping to his requests.

[General Banzai]

How are we sure it didn't? Unlike Lyn and co. who were there at the scene, they may not have any idea just how big is the Laus army, and thus just how much it would take them to mobilize. It's not that Darin being chased out of Laus became that known quick and so his forces weren't that big. Another was just Eliwood's small company would need less time to mobilize and thus reach Caelin quicker. Perhaps the whole ordeal finished up before anything bigger happened.

Remember, considering stuff like Bern, Uther can't allow for Lycia to show weakness, if any other territory had acted, it would be a clear sign that something's wrong. Perhaps he ordered them to not act and knowing Eliwood and co. were in the area, they could take care of the problem. They did, after all, drove Darin from Laus away in the first place.

Hypothetical hypothetical, unsupported unsupported

Also if Bern's really so eager to invade Lycia then that leads to the problem of why Nergal goes through such a convoluted mess later in the game to get Bern to start a war when it'd in reality be really easy to.

[bottlegnomes]

I doubt you're going to accept this, but as to why Darin might have attacked Laus. I'm not sure where Laus is in relation to Caelin, but like someone said, Caelin might have been on the way to Valor and as stated Caelin is a very small town. So maybe Darin needed some place to stay for a little while on his way to Valor. Since Caelin is small it would fall quickly. As for why none of the other lords came to help, maybe Hector and Eliwood were the first to hear about it and were able to take care of it before any of the other lords got involved.

[Acacia Sgt]

Hypothetical hypothetical, unsupported unsupported

Also if Bern's really so eager to invade Lycia then that leads to the problem of why Nergal goes through such a convoluted mess later in the game to get Bern to start a war when it'd in reality be really easy to.

Well then, can you find evidence against it?

It may seem like a terrible scapegoat, but just remember this, as long as there is no evidence pointing either way, such theories can stand as long as you don't start declaring them as fact, which I didn't.

[General Banzai]

Well then, can you find evidence against it?

It may seem like a terrible scapegoat, but just remember this, as long as there is no evidence pointing either way, such theories can stand as long as you don't start declaring them as fact, which I didn't.

No. A story is not like real life, where characters can keep their motivations secret to their very grave. In a story, the reader must know the underlying causes as to what's happening; or at the very least there must be implications as to motive and reasoning behind the characters. If we had a story where every character acted in a way without knowing why they were acting that way, we wouldn't be able to understand what the hell was going on.

Also, as to the other guy, on the map Caelin is in the opposite direction of Laus from Valor.

Edited July 30, 2011 by General Banzai

[Othin]

I doubt you're going to accept this, but as to why Darin might have attacked Laus. I'm not sure where Laus is in relation to Caelin, but like someone said, Caelin might have been on the way to Valor and as stated Caelin is a very small town. So maybe Darin needed some place to stay for a little while on his way to Valor. Since Caelin is small it would fall quickly. As for why none of the other lords came to help, maybe Hector and Eliwood were the first to hear about it and were able to take care of it before any of the other lords got involved.

He invaded Caelin so he could hang out there for a while on his way? Really? No other way he could do it?

Also, this.

Darin:

Yes...I...I see that now. Where do we go from here?

Ephidel:

To the Dragon's Gate... Our master awaits us there. The master has informed me our hostage may be all we need. If all goes well, we may be able to perform the ceremony with him alone.

Doesn't sound like Darin had any plan to go to Valor before winding up in Caelin.

And it seems I can't look at a script for this game without stumbling onto more shit.

Linus:

We're going hunting! We'll taunt them and pull them to the center of the town.

---

Igor:

That's right. You have the honor of dying at the hands of the Four Fangs. Our commander is Linus, the Mad Dog.

Hector:

Eliwood! Is that the enemy?

Eliwood:

Yes. Let's meet his challenge!

"Let's meet his challenge"? Really?

[General Banzai]

I like how Hector has to ask is that's the enemy.

[Acacia Sgt]

No. A story is not like real life, where characters can keep their motivations secret to their very grave. In a story, the reader must know the underlying causes as to what's happening; or at the very least there must be implications as to motive and reasoning behind the characters. If we had a story where every character acted in a way without knowing why they were acting that way, we wouldn't be able to understand what the hell was going on.

But, at the same time, you're not going to get everything handed to you and explained in detail. You must deduce, infer, theorize, join the pieces together.

It's fact that there was a rebellion plan. It's fact that they didn't fled immediately to Valor. It's fact that such decision was only made because their attack on Caelin was not going to get through. It's fact that at the sign of things getting gout of hand, Darin would get to hesitate; if Ephidel hadn't interfered, Haussen would probably had succeeded in convincing him to drop the thing altogether. And it's fact that for Ephidel, the rebellion plan is of such importance and priority if it had to keep Darin in check to go over said plan. As such, it's easily to reach the conclusion that the attack on Caelin was a last stand for the rebellion plans after the factors of Helman wanting to betray them and was killed, and that the majority of Laus's forces were defeated or were left behind after Eliwood and co. fought them.

[Dark Sage]

It's a bit of a logical leap to go from "Oh shit our rebellion plans are falling apart" to "hey guys let's attack Caelin".

Honestly nobody here has given one good reason why Ephidel or Darin would want to invade Caelin. Not only that, but the poor excuses you guys HAVE come up with are completely unsupported by anything in the script. I mean maybe the reason why Darin invaded Caelin was because Darin had a long-standing hatred of Lord Hausen. He decided that since this was his last chance before leaving Lycia he'd go and get revenge on his longtime nemesis. Did I pull that explanation out of my ass? No more than you guys have pulled your explanations out of your asses.

I actually have an easy explanation for this. Ephidel would like to attack Caelin to gather more quintessence obviously and Darin would obviously do what Ephidel wants. Recall that Erik says that Darin is essentially Ephidel's puppet and Darin would obviously listen to Ephidel for fear of losing his support. Darin's goal of ruling Lycia (and eventually the entire world) comes first for him, so it would be perfectly in character for him to attack Caelin.

In addition, it is completely possible that Darin asked for Caelin's aid in the rebellion but Caelin refused, which would be the excuse Darin would need for him to attack Caelin while fleeing Laus. And actually, this is supported by the script:

Darin:

Ri...Ridiculous... Even Bauker?

Hausen:

Lord Darin, it's time to give up this madness. Further resistance is meaningless. For what you've done, you may never be forgiven, but it's not too late to try. Tell Eliwood everything. He'll intervene with Marquess Ostia on your behalf…

Darin:

I...I've...lost...

Hausen:

Hurry! Eliwood will be here in no time. Let me speak for you. Gurr... Guaaaa!!

And further supported here:

Lyn: Are you Darin? My grandfather... You tried to...

Darin: What? Who are you?

Lyn: I am Marquess Caelin's granddaughter, Lyndis!

Darin: Oh...that senile fool? ...That doddering wreck dared disagree with me... I was so happy to be rid of him.

Lyn: You're a dead man!

Of course you'll probably just dismiss this because it's not spelled out for you in the script and your ego is so huge, that you won't accept any explanation, despite the fact that this one doesn't really require theorycrafting and only minimal inference. So you can go ignore this post if you like.

[General Banzai]

But, at the same time, you're not going to get everything handed to you and explained in detail. You must deduce, infer, theorize, join the pieces together.

It's fact that there was a rebellion plan. It's fact that they didn't fled immediately to Valor.

It's fact that such decision was only made because their attack on Caelin was not going to get through. How is this fact?

It's fact that at the sign of things getting gout of hand, Darin would get to hesitate; if Ephidel hadn't interfered, Haussen would probably had succeeded in convincing him to drop the thing altogether. Then it might have been a good idea not to go to Caelin right?

And it's fact that for Ephidel, the rebellion plan is of such importance and priority if it had to keep Darin in check to go over said plan. I call bullshit on the rebellion plan being important to Ephidel. He doesn't give a shit. He doesn't care if Ostia squashes Laus before the rebellion can get going; he doesn't care if Eliwood continues on his journey; and he abandons the entire idea and just runs to Valor after awhile.

As such, it's easily to reach the conclusion that the attack on Caelin was a last stand for the rebellion plans after the factors of Helman wanting to betray them and was killed, and that the majority of Laus's forces were defeated or were left behind after Eliwood and co. fought them. Still not sure how invading Caelin is going to cause a rebellion. And the second half of your sentence is incomprehensible.

I actually have an easy explanation for this. Ephidel would like to attack Caelin to gather more quintessence obviously and Darin would obviously do what Ephidel wants. Recall that Erik says that Darin is essentially Ephidel's puppet and Darin would obviously listen to Ephidel for fear of losing his support. Darin's goal of ruling Lycia (and eventually the entire world) comes first for him, so it would be perfectly in character for him to attack Caelin.

In addition, it is completely possible that Darin asked for Caelin's aid in the rebellion but Caelin refused, which would be the excuse Darin would need for him to attack Caelin while fleeing Laus. And actually, this is supported by the script:

Darin:

Ri...Ridiculous... Even Bauker?

Hausen:

Lord Darin, it's time to give up this madness. Further resistance is meaningless. For what you've done, you may never be forgiven, but it's not too late to try. Tell Eliwood everything. He'll intervene with Marquess Ostia on your behalf…

Darin:

I...I've...lost...

Hausen:

Hurry! Eliwood will be here in no time. Let me speak for you. Gurr... Guaaaa!!

And further supported here:

Lyn: Are you Darin? My grandfather... You tried to...

Darin: What? Who are you?

Lyn: I am Marquess Caelin's granddaughter, Lyndis!

Darin: Oh...that senile fool? ...That doddering wreck dared disagree with me... I was so happy to be rid of him.

Lyn: You're a dead man!

Of course you'll probably just dismiss this because it's not spelled out for you in the script and your ego is so huge, that you won't accept any explanation, despite the fact that this one doesn't really require theorycrafting and only minimal inference. So you can go ignore this post if you like.

The first quote doesn't imply anything more than Ostia may forgive Laus for invading Caelin. The second quote, while more strongly implying that Hausen did not support rebellion, still doesn't explain why Darin or Ephidel would go and invade Caelin.

Oh, and thanks for all the insults. Really makes you seem like you know what you're talking about.

Edited July 30, 2011 by General Banzai

[-Cynthia-]

No. A story is not like real life, where characters can keep their motivations secret to their very grave. In a story, the reader must know the underlying causes as to what's happening; or at the very least there must be implications as to motive and reasoning behind the characters. If we had a story where every character acted in a way without knowing why they were acting that way, we wouldn't be able to understand what the hell was going on.

Also, as to the other guy, on the map Caelin is in the opposite direction of Laus from Valor.

So on one hand you complain the story is overly childish, on the other you complain that not every cause is spoonfed to you? There are several possible legitimate reasons for Laus attacking Caelin, yet you have failed to actually discredit these, instead dismissing them simply because the game did not tell you directly. The game didn't tell us how Eagler was being coerced, I'm sure we could hypothesize some reasons for that as well. Just because the game didn't explicitly state the reason for attacking Caelin doesn't mean that there was no reason.

@Legault He probably should know the location of at least a former Black Fang headquarters in Bern yes, but since the game did address this I don't think it's a major issue (Legault knows enough that they're based in Bern, but not the current location is what's most important)

@Lundgren And we don't actually see the other Lycian lords interfering, just Eliwood saying that he's preventing their interference. I don't see much indicating that they're very willing to help Lundgren or Lyn, except Eliwood saying that he's stopped other lords from interfering (easy if they didn't care much to begin with).

@prince's assassination I don't see the problem with this really. Yes, assassinating the prince would cause some chaos in Bern, but probably not the violent sort Sonia is looking for. Being is Desmond's favor may allow them to instigate a war between Bern and Lycia for example, which is a lot more quintessence than people investigating who killed the prince.

Edited July 30, 2011 by -Cynthia-

[Dark Sage]

The first quote doesn't imply anything more than Ostia may forgive Laus for invading Caelin. The second quote, while more strongly implying that Hausen did not support rebellion, still doesn't explain why Darin or Ephidel would go and invade Caelin.

Oh, and thanks for all the insults. Really makes you seem like you know what you're talking about.

Did you miss the part where it's pretty much outright stated that Ephidel has Darin in his pocket? And did you conveniently miss the point that Ephidel wants to get quintessence? An attack on Caelin obviously results in the deaths of both Laus and Caelin soldiers, so Ephidel would have a reason to attack.

As for the insults, I am merely stating what most people are likely thinking about you right now.

Edited July 30, 2011 by Sagekitty

[General Banzai]

You know there's a difference between spoonfeeding you an explanation and not giving you even the slightest hint towards one. You guys continue to say you've made acceptable explanations as to why Darin would invade Caelin but I've yet to see anything that explains why:

1. Darin would go the opposite direction of Valor

2. Invade a country when he's already been ousted from his own country

3. Ephidel would even ask him to leave Laus instead of reinforcing Erik

4. How invading Caelin is apt to start a rebellion anyways

5. How invading Caelin is apt to do anything but draw the ire of Ostia. Perhaps Ostia has its hands tied but Darin obviously doesn't know this; why else would he say in Chapter 14 "Ostia? That would be ruinous?!"

6. How invading Caelin is apt to do anything but enact the Lycian pact in EliwoodxHector in which all Lycian nations will come to the aid of a Lycian nation under attack

Did you miss the part where it's pretty much outright stated that Ephidel has Darin in his pocket? And did you conveniently miss the point that Ephidel wants to get quintessence? An attack on Caelin obviously results in the deaths of both Laus and Caelin soldiers, so Ephidel would have a reason to attack.

As for the insults, I am merely stating what most people are likely thinking about you right now.

If Ephidel wants quintessence why not just go whole hog and attack Ostia directly? Ostia's bigger so there'd be more casualties. More casualties = more quintessence. Not only that but an attack on Ostia is likely to trigger Bern to invade Lycia also. So why Caelin? Even if Laus's attack on Ostia failed pitifully, "if Bern sees the slightest crack in Ostia's defenses it is likely to invade with all its might behind it." Isn't that the whole point of the Zephiel assassination subplot?

Also I've gone this entire time without a single personal insult towards anyone arguing with me. Is it possible to have conflicting opinions on something and still think that the other person is an okay guy? I don't know what I've done to draw your hatred besides point out the flaws in a game you like. I certainly don't bear you any ill will even though you are attacking me.

Edited July 30, 2011 by General Banzai

[Acacia Sgt]

How is this fact?

Then it might have been a good idea not to go to Caelin right?

I call bullshit on the rebellion plan being important to Ephidel. He doesn't give a shit. He doesn't care if Ostia squashes Laus before the rebellion can get going; he doesn't care if Eliwood continues on his journey; and he abandons the entire idea and just runs to Valor after awhile.

Still not sure how invading Caelin is going to cause a rebellion. And the second half of your sentence is incomprehensible.

As I posted before in this thread, a quote from Ephidel:

Ephidel:

You're exactly right. Our plans may have gone drastically awry, but as long as we have the master's power behind us, we cannot be defeated. We'd do well to leave now, before those meddlesome worms arrive. You will leave everyone from Laus behind. We will use them to delay our foe.

The bold shows it clear. That the rebellion plans got thwarted, but not all is lost since Nergal was going to focus on Bern now. And that it was all thanks to Eliwood and co.

It's not that it had to be Caelin itself, an attack everywhere would've done the same. The fact that it's Caelin is due to probably convenience of proximity. Honestly, I can probably picture them going:

Ephidel: *With a coin in hand* Heads Caelin, Tails Kathelet.

*shot*

And, if you want to go for that route, the writers wanted to bring Lyn and co. back to the story.

Yeah, with Haussen coming close, Caelin was probably not the good idea overall. But, probably the same would've happened if they'd have gone to Kathelet for example. You can easily replace Hausen with the ruler of any other territory perhaps, and the outcome of Darin hesitating and Ephidel interfering would not have changed.

It is important for Ephidel. The rebellion was for Quintessence gathering, and so important. And he only abandons it once all hope for said plans had gone down the drain. Just look at their situation, Darin was loosing the few soldiers it had left, and had no other Marquess supporting him. Might as well leave an go for Plan B.

What I meant is that with Helman, who had supported them, being death; and Laus's forces divided since Eliwood and co. attacked them; that the plans for rebellion were looking grim.

[General Banzai]

Wait wait wait why is it beneficial for Ephidel and friends to invade ANYWHERE at that moment of time? You haven't made that clear to me, and that quote you keep posting means absolutely nothing to me. Explain its significance.

Edited July 30, 2011 by General Banzai

[bottlegnomes]

No. A story is not like real life, where characters can keep their motivations secret to their very grave. In a story, the reader must know the underlying causes as to what's happening; or at the very least there must be implications as to motive and reasoning behind the characters. If we had a story where every character acted in a way without knowing why they were acting that way, we wouldn't be able to understand what the hell was going on.

Also, as to the other guy, on the map Caelin is in the opposite direction of Laus from Valor.

Just wondering where you got that from? The only map I've seen is the one on serenesforest, and that one doesn't have Caelin on it.

He invaded Caelin so he could hang out there for a while on his way? Really? No other way he could do it?

Also, this.

Darin:

Yes...I...I see that now. Where do we go from here?

Ephidel:

To the Dragon's Gate... Our master awaits us there. The master has informed me our hostage may be all we need. If all goes well, we may be able to perform the ceremony with him alone.

Doesn't sound like Darin had any plan to go to Valor before winding up in Caelin.

And it seems I can't look at a script for this game without stumbling onto more shit.

Linus:

We're going hunting! We'll taunt them and pull them to the center of the town.

---

Igor:

That's right. You have the honor of dying at the hands of the Four Fangs. Our commander is Linus, the Mad Dog.

Hector:

Eliwood! Is that the enemy?

Eliwood:

Yes. Let's meet his challenge!

"Let's meet his challenge"? Really?

That's your problem with the quote? Essentially, it is a challenge. Linus is challenging them to defeat him.

I like how Hector has to ask is that's the enemy.

I more agree with this being the problem with that little exchange.

As for the Legault base thing, didn't realize that quote was in the game. I don't really feel like reading the whole script having to do with Legault and I kind of doubt that there'd be something to definitively explain that, so I'll concede that point, at least for now.

As for Hausen, that can easily go either way. It doesn't take much inferring to decide that that's what he means, but it's also not explicit, so obviously you're not going to accept it. It's what it is. That very well could have been the writers' intention, but it's not completely clear. That really comes down to being willing to believe other people's interpretations. I can't tell you the number of times a story was being discussed in class and someone was confused by a portion of it and someone else offers an explanation that isn't obvious, but makes sense, and the confused person is like, "ohhhh, that makes sense now." There's evidence as to that being the reason for Darin invading Caelin, but there's not a ton, so I wouldn't call it a big plot hole, but I also wouldn't say it's without its flaws.

Edited July 30, 2011 by bottlegnomes

[General Banzai]

13x takes place in Caelin. This means Caelin is in between Laus and Pherae. Since Pherae is east of Laus, then Caelin is also east of Laus. Meanwhile, Valor is west of Laus.

[Acacia Sgt]

Wait wait wait why is it beneficial for Ephidel and friends to invade ANYWHERE at that moment of time? You haven't made that clear to me, and that quote you keep posting means absolutely nothing to me. Explain its significance.

To spark war. Remember that code you keep mentioning about Lycian houses going in the defense of one another? That is mentioned but never executed as you say? They would use that to create a civil war. The territories wanting war and overthrow Ostia, and the ones still loyal to the league would be engaged in war, perfect scenario for Quintessence gathering for Nergal.

That quote was to show why the plans for rebellion were doomed after the failed attack to Caelin. No war was going to spark since their invasion was quickly being stopped.

[General Banzai]

To spark war. Remember that code you keep mentioning about Lycian houses going in the defense of one another? That is mentioned but never executed as you say? They would use that to create a civil war. The territories wanting war and overthrow Ostia, and the ones still loyal to the league would be engaged in war, perfect scenario for Quintessence gathering for Nergal.

That quote was to show why the plans for rebellion were doomed after the failed attack to Caelin. No war was going to spark since their invasion was quickly being stopped.

So...

Based on something said in a support conversation we infer that Ephidel's invasion of Caelin was warmongering and it only didn't work because Eliwood was too fast at stopping the invasion.

That's the first passable explanation I've seen of the rebellion ever.

But I still think ordering Darin to invade Ostia would have made much more sense for Ephidel's goals.

[Acacia Sgt]

But I still think ordering Darin to invade Ostia would have made much more sense for Ephidel's goals.

Well, while it's true that threatening Ostia directly would probably be more effective, keep in mind that Ostia is famed of being impenetrable, with it's strong walls and powerful Armor Knights. Attacking it wouldn't have been for their best.

Not to mention, it also depends when. Before Eliwood reached Laus? They weren't planning in acting just yet. After Helman's death, Darin would first want to make sure Ostia hadn't learned of their plans, which means stopping Eliwood first. But since that failed and they had to flee, Ostia was now defiently out of his range now that he wasn't 100% battle-capable with a large portion of his forces unavailable now.

[General Banzai]

Well, while it's true that threatening Ostia directly would probably be more effective, keep in mind that Ostia is famed of being impenetrable, with it's strong walls and powerful Armor Knights. Attacking it wouldn't have been for their best.

Not to mention, it also depends when. Before Eliwood reached Laus? They weren't planning in acting just yet. After Helman's death, Darin would first want to make sure Ostia hadn't learned of their plans, which means stopping Eliwood first. But since that failed and they had to flee, Ostia was now defiently out of his range now that he wasn't 100% battle-capable with a large portion of his forces unavailable now.

Even an unsuccessful attack would be likely to incite Bern into war, according to what several people say about Bern throughout the game. But also, this brings up the question as to why Darin fled Laus at all. He had two/thirds of his army undeployed as well as his best commanders also undeployed. Why not simply deploy those units and crush Eliwood with numbers, instead of running away simply because "Erik is struggling!" This problem is more Ephidel's than Darin's of course; Darin only leaves because Ephidel convinces him to. But it doesn't make sense for Ephidel to want to run away.

[bottlegnomes]

http://riota.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=maps&action=print&thread=33

There's a map of Elibe. Pherae is southeast of Laus. Valor is almost due south. If Caelin is in between the two I wouldn't exactly say it's out of the way, considering they can't necessarily go due south. Also, going of the script, by that point they'd passed through Santaruz by 13x, so Caelin is between Laus and Santaruz. Anyway, going off the last theory, Ephidel probably knew that there was a chance that whatever Darin did next would fail and knew that after that their best bet was to go to Valor, so he picked a place that was on the way to Valor. That way, if it succeeded then they'd have accomplished their goal, but if it failed they would already be on their way to Valor. On top of that, there is a much larger chance that invading Caelin would start said war than invading Ostia. If they invaded Ostia there's a good chance they'd be crushed before any allies could show up to help, since Ostia is so powerful, while with Caelin allies could show up to reinforce before Ostia and company showed up, so they'd have a better chance in the ensuing war.

EDIT: ninjaed

Edited July 30, 2011 by bottlegnomes

[CT075]

@Legault: I'm not 100% certain (but I will go find the event scripts to make sure if I must), but I'm not sure that Legault's line in Four-Fanged Offense shows up at all if he's not recruited/dead. Normally I'd say it was just the developers being lazy, but on my first runthrough, Legault died and I'm about 80% sure I didn't see his line.

Alternately, I'm just an idiot.

@Darin: As far as we know, Darin just attacked SOMEWHERE in that general direction, and the writers thought, "hey let's make it Caelin so we can bring Lyn and co. back". Doesn't explain why they were going in that direction at all, though.

Another idea is that Darin, having left behind his strongest troops (or at least, a large majority of them), wanted to go and find a place where he could sit tight and start anew [with his plans of rebellion]. So he goes to the least-defended/smallest (note: I'm not saying that the two are synonymous) territory, and decides to take that. And it happens to be Caelin.

Now, for anyone involved, it's a stupid idea, but think about it: He's just abandoned his son, his castle, his lands, and, as far as we know, the vast majority of his fighting force, he's clearly distraught over this. I think anyone would be at least slightly rash/delusional/short-sighted/etc. Ephidel only agrees with this because the soldiers slaughtering each other means "YAY MORE QUINTESSENCE".

@Hausen: I don't believe there's enough evidence to either side of whether or not he was contacted about the rebellion. His words (they've been quoted before and I don't feel like digging it up) could be out of 'mercy' (for lack of a better word), trying to make Darin call off the attack before he ends up devastated. I mean, Hausen is hardly an idiot. Darin is possibly (and I think it fairly likely for reasons stated above) a complete and total wreck. Maybe Hausen didn't want to see him ruin himself completely?

I dunno.

EDIT:

He had two/thirds of his army undeployed as well as his best commanders also undeployed. Why not simply deploy those units and crush Eliwood with numbers, instead of running away simply because "Erik is struggling!" This problem is more Ephidel's than Darin's of course; Darin only leaves because Ephidel convinces him to. But it doesn't make sense for Ephidel to want to run away.

I didn't consider that, you can scratch out my paragraph on Darin.

Edited July 30, 2011 by CT075

[eclipse]

But I still think ordering Darin to invade Ostia would have made much more sense for Ephidel's goals.

And that would be the world's dumbest military campaign. Ostia is powerful, and the terrain doesn't look all that inviting for the invaders (especially armors like what Laus seems to have lots of). For Laus to succeed in that, they'd need to take out the surrounding territories (so they don't get cut off from Laus), then take the fight up to Ostia. Someone's bound to notice, and I'm sure the consequences of that would be really bad for Darin.

[General Banzai]

And that would be the world's dumbest military campaign. Ostia is powerful, and the terrain doesn't look all that inviting for the invaders (especially armors like what Laus seems to have lots of). For Laus to succeed in that, they'd need to take out the surrounding territories (so they don't get cut off from Laus), then take the fight up to Ostia. Someone's bound to notice, and I'm sure the consequences of that would be really bad for Darin.

Doesn't need to be successful. Read my other posts on Laus vs Ostia.