Team Tournament

[Knife]

So if it's okay, I'm keeping you guys as red. You can't have a color without having a team name first. The rest of you can use any of these colors, assuming the Dragon Slayers don't want any of these:

Team

Team

Team

Also, I added in some more rules concerning stalling, suicide, and sudden death.

Edited August 31, 2011 by Knitty

[mmKALLL]

"-No stalling to run out the clock"

From Unity Ruleset version 1.4:

General Gameplay Rules

7. The act of stalling is banned: stalling is intentionally making the game unplayable: Such as becoming invisible, continuing infinites, chain grabs, or uninterruptible moves past 300%, and reaching a position that your opponent can never reach you.

From your point of view, I believe that by stalling you mean a larger variety of activities (since I beat you by ledgehogging, and you were obviously salty, maybe still are) than those described in this definition of stalling I know of. This is also why I proposed to include a Ledge Grab Limit in that tournament, but so many were against it that ledgehogging became a completely legit strategy in that tournament - and you apparently didn't like it. I played completely according to rules that time. (I even played Marth instead of MK)

Also, ledge grabbing and regrabbing is as legit a way to find a weak point as any. It can easily be countered with most characters, although Meta Knight's is much harder to interrupt than others'. It's not, however, by any ways impossible. All it needs is to run off the ledge and use your fastest aerial - on most stages I will be stage spiked, and if I see this and use a get-up option, I have invisible frames but can not hit you either. After that, you are probably going to use your second jump and have the ledge, reversing the situation. This is normal, and I don't see how it's really all that hard to get over it. Ledgecamping isn't anywhere near unbeatable. You even had throwable projectiles which would be easy enough to hit me with from a completely safe distance, how hard can it be?

Unless, I'm mistaking, and you use the same definition of stalling as is used in the UR 1.4. But the way you talked after my win that time, I'm pretty sure you don't.

Also, why do only complete stocks count? A small lead is still a lead. I think it's sort of unfair - think about it this way: The game is down to 1v1. Both players are on their last stock, second last stock, whatever. The other just died,

and survived over 200%. The survivor then ledgehogs, or it's a Team TL-Team Falco match, which can take hours without timer. The survivor makes it a draw - it's much, much better than a loss. And the other player clearly was leading - one hit, and he would have led by a stock. But no. Edited August 30, 2011 by mmKALLL

[Kaoz]

Also, why do only complete stocks count? A small lead is still a lead. I think it's sort of unfair - think about it this way: The game is down to 1v1. Both players are on their last stock, second last stock, whatever. The other just died,

and survived over 200%. The survivor then ledgehogs, or it's a Team TL-Team Falco match, which can take hours without timer. The survivor makes it a draw - it's much, much better than a loss. And the other player clearly was leading - one hit, and he would have led by a stock. But no.

I have to slightly disagree with this. While what you say is true, percentages can't be translated to health like in other fighters, simply because characters all share the same "health bar", but die at different times. Then there's also the possibility of a gimp, which can kill at any given percentage. While in your example, it's likely that the player with 200% would lose, how about a situation like MK at 80% vs Snake at 81%? Going by percentage, the MK would win, but disregarding gimps (because they can happen at any time), I dare say the MK was closer to death (Snake's UTilt kills him starting at around 80% I believe? Yet MK can't kill Snake regularly until like 150%).

That being said, out of all the available endgame statistics, percentage is probably the most clear cut one since it makes more sense than most others and can be checked during the game at all times. On the other hand, it's certainly not incorrect to either play a rematch (possibly with lower stock/time count), or actually play the Sudden Death.

[DragonBladeSniper]

You can keep blue if you want. I was thinking of asking Dragon first but since you beat me to it, it doesn't matter.

Sorry about that, you could choose any color, I don't really mind.

[Zanarkin]

Sorry about that, you could choose any color, I don't really mind.

The red is fine.

[shroudening]

Kirsche and I are The Senators.

[Crimson Red]

In case you did catch it our team name is ChaoticBlaze. ;)

[Pride]

So today I found out a friend of mine is in need of a quick money infusion.

Since I have no money myself, and I owe this guy a lot, I'm letting him sell my copy of Brawl because that shit runs for $25 apparently.

I apologize to my teammate, Xanderdog, and the rest of you dudes, but I must drop out.

Edited August 31, 2011 by Pride

[Knife]

"-No stalling to run out the clock"

From Unity Ruleset version 1.4:

General Gameplay Rules

7. The act of stalling is banned: stalling is intentionally making the game unplayable: Such as becoming invisible, continuing infinites, chain grabs, or uninterruptible moves past 300%, and reaching a position that your opponent can never reach you.

From your point of view, I believe that by stalling you mean a larger variety of activities (since I beat you by ledgehogging, and you were obviously salty, maybe still are) than those described in this definition of stalling I know of. This is also why I proposed to include a Ledge Grab Limit in that tournament, but so many were against it that ledgehogging became a completely legit strategy in that tournament - and you apparently didn't like it. I played completely according to rules that time. (I even played Marth instead of MK)

Also, ledge grabbing and regrabbing is as legit a way to find a weak point as any. It can easily be countered with most characters, although Meta Knight's is much harder to interrupt than others'. It's not, however, by any ways impossible. All it needs is to run off the ledge and use your fastest aerial - on most stages I will be stage spiked, and if I see this and use a get-up option, I have invisible frames but can not hit you either. After that, you are probably going to use your second jump and have the ledge, reversing the situation. This is normal, and I don't see how it's really all that hard to get over it. Ledgecamping isn't anywhere near unbeatable. You even had throwable projectiles which would be easy enough to hit me with from a completely safe distance, how hard can it be?

Unless, I'm mistaking, and you use the same definition of stalling as is used in the UR 1.4. But the way you talked after my win that time, I'm pretty sure you don't.

Also, why do only complete stocks count? A small lead is still a lead. I think it's sort of unfair - think about it this way: The game is down to 1v1. Both players are on their last stock, second last stock, whatever. The other just died,

and survived over 200%. The survivor then ledgehogs, or it's a Team TL-Team Falco match, which can take hours without timer. The survivor makes it a draw - it's much, much better than a loss. And the other player clearly was leading - one hit, and he would have led by a stock. But no.

Yeah, so why did you pick Pictochat again? My personal opinion on the match was that the ledgehogging was a desperate and pussy-ass move, especially considering that Marth was stalling to beat/draw with Peach. You could use the turnip spam as justification for ledgehogging, but seriously, don't tell me you have trouble avoiding one of the slowest projectiles in the game. I could have B-aired you, but it was way too risky considering how easy it is for Marth to jump of the ledge and spike, how low Pictochat is, and the random shit that appears out of nowhere.

So how about this: fuck time limits. Certain matchups need more time to play and there are way too many variables in a 2 vs. 2 match to determine an appropriate timeframe. The reason we use time limits is to prevent players from stalling until the other player quits due to annoyance. I'm sure no one here is dick enough to actually pull a stunt like that anyway, so I think we'll be fine without a time limit. There are also 3 other players who are witnesses and can interpret stalling. Just use common sense to determine what stalling is and isn't. If you're getting nowhere in the match by ledgegrabbing, go on the offense instead of risking being called a staller.

In case you did catch it our team name is ChaoticBlaze. ;)

Pick a color out of these:

Team

Team

Team

I threw in grey since I'm sure no one wants pink.

Also, since Pride is dropping out and Xanderdog may or may not be able to fix his Wii, there is a possibility that we'll have 5 teams if we don't get someone to replace him/them. If we do end up having five teams, each team will have to sit out for one round. Sitting out will be on a voluntary basis, call out whatever week you prefer to sit out. If no one wants to sit out, then it's just random. Don't call out any weeks yet though, we have to see if the 6th team can recover.

So obviously, we need another player if any of you lurkers are interested.

Edited August 31, 2011 by Knitty

[mmKALLL]

Yeah, so why did you pick Pictochat again? My personal opinion on the match was that the ledgehogging was a desperate and pussy-ass move, especially considering that Marth was stalling to beat/draw with Peach. You could use the turnip spam as justification for ledgehogging, but seriously, don't tell me you have trouble avoiding one of the slowest projectiles in the game. I could have B-aired you, but it was way too risky considering how easy it is for Marth to jump of the ledge and spike, how low Pictochat is, and the random shit that appears out of nowhere.

So how about this: fuck time limits. Certain matchups need more time to play and there are way too many variables in a 2 vs. 2 match to determine an appropriate timeframe. The reason we use time limits is to prevent players from stalling until the other player quits due to annoyance. I'm sure no one here is dick enough to actually pull a stunt like that anyway, so I think we'll be fine without a time limit. There are also 3 other players who are witnesses and can interpret stalling. Just use common sense to determine what stalling is and isn't. If you're getting nowhere in the match by ledgegrabbing, go on the offense instead of risking being called a staller.

Yes, I was wrong with picking Picto. I thought that it was legal, but apparently it was not.

I was in the lead, so I obviously would want to be at an advantageous position since there was less than a minute left. Either you approach due to not being in the lead, or the time ends, assumedly resulting in your loss. In fact, turnips are pretty good - they move slow, but I can't recover without getting hit again. Had you spammed your turnips a little closer, so that they would have hit, I probably would have lost the lead within that minute. Are you also forgetting Peach's hover? You could have hovered over me and have thrown the turnip right down. I can't call Marth's spiking to be easy like that, the startup is really slow, and you have to tipper it - and if it misses entirely (you fastfall, for example), I'm in for being punished.

As for certain matchups needing more time to play, it's true - but I can assure you that MUs like Falco-Toon Link, which are both character based on camping with projectiles, they can take half a hour to finish. Not to mention that we are talking about four stocks instead of three in this tournament. And if it's five matches - it will be a while. "-- -- no one here is dick enough -- --" - fine, call me a dick, then. If I'm playing MK, there's nothing that can stop camping very well. I don't see Kaoz or Xeylode having troubles with it too much, though - and once again, I stress this - I was playing Marth, a character which can't even ledgehog all that well. If you're going nowhere, but aren't in the lead either, why don't you do the offense? Why would I want to deliberately put myself in a worse position, when you have plenty of options to face me anyway? It's comparable to wanting to have that landing lag from dair as Ganon instead of stomping. You have worse options if I stomp, but it's a legitimate anti-approach, just not quite as obvious as ledgehogging.

I'm sorry for playing Brawl for the intensity of competetiveness, since it has redefined my assumptions about the rulings. Most other players around here don't have quite as much of a problem with that, however, like you do.

[Knife]

I don't understand how ledgegrabbing puts you at an advantageous position, to me all it looks like is baiting or wasting time. You might be right about Peach v Marth, but some characters have problems jumping off the ledge and attacking, especially against MK. Just get on the ledge and fight. I seriously doubt any match will go on for 30 minutes, however if this noted to be a problem during round one, we could always change it back.

[Kaoz]

I don't understand how ledgegrabbing puts you at an advantageous position, to me all it looks like is baiting or wasting time. You might be right about Peach v Marth, but some characters have problems jumping off the ledge and attacking, especially against MK. Just get on the ledge and fight. I seriously doubt any match will go on for 30 minutes, however if this noted to be a problem during round one, we could always change it back.

As you noted yourself, it can be difficult for some characters to approach other characters when those characters are on the ledge. As the player that is currently winning has no need to approach, it's up to the player that's currently losing to do so. So, if you are forced to approach and your character can't do it very well... you are in a bad position, hence the ledge is an advantegous position for the leading player... this is MU dependant of course, and how effective it is depends on how well your character does on the ledge and what the opposing character's options against this tactic are...

EDIT: Also grey if Luffy has no objections to that.

Edited August 31, 2011 by Chaoskitty

[mmKALLL]

If ledgegrabbing didn't put me in an advantageous position, as you say, why didn't you bring the fight to me instead of waiting the time to run out when you were losing? I believe I used this tactic several times, actually, but you just didn't approact me during the last, unlike on the earlier occasions.

[Knife]

If ledgegrabbing didn't put me in an advantageous position, as you say, why didn't you bring the fight to me instead of waiting the time to run out when you were losing? I believe I used this tactic several times, actually, but you just didn't approact me during the last, unlike on the earlier occasions.

You weren't even winning. The last tournament didn't specify anything about having a higher percentage at time out would let you win. So unless you consider tying to be advantageous, I don't know what you're talking about. This is also why we're discussing all this shit now, so we can prevent future "what now?" situations.

You never used the tactic before the last minute of the match, so I don't think you're recalling correctly. I believe you did something similar, but my turnip throwing made you stop several times. The actual match is irrelevant at this point though, I'm not holding it against you. I was just just using that match as an example and justification for why we need clearer rules for situations like these.

Since this is such an opinionated argument, neither side will likely concede, and I don't want this to go on for the next 5 pages, I'll just put some of these rules to a vote. Polls will close when Round 1 starts. For the time limit question, it is now for 12 minutes instead of 10.

Edited September 1, 2011 by Knitty

[Xander]

Who's my new partner

[Crimson Red]

as long as we're not pink I don't care,

and I'm willing to do whatever in terms of when we play, really. *shrug*

[mmKALLL]

Since it seems like "Should planking be banned (stalling by ledgehogging)?" is winning on "Yes", how is this to be determined? Ledge Grab Limit would sort things out well, but that only would be applicable if the match goes to time. How do you define planking, and how would you be able to tell the players on how to agree whether a player was planking or not?

I thought I was winning. It's not like it had rules for that kind of stuff, so I assumed the rules I usually play with would be correct to use. At any rate, I admit for not reading and memorizing the rules that thoroughly, since I was in a major position when making them. I am recalling correctly, I always try to bait my opponents whether it's using a laggy move from a safe distance or by planking, for example.

That tournament didn't specify anything about it being a draw either, but that doesn't really matter anymore, since I won regardless. "but my turnip throwing made you stop several times" - why didn't you just throw one on me during the last time?

Seems like all the rules are going to be exactly the opposite of what I'm used to, lol. Well, if the majority wants it..

Twelve minutes? That's going to be a boring hour. (double MK without team attack gogo, for 5 matches)

Anyway, good luck for getting this organized. I can already see the pain in figuring out times for four people and prevent any and all misunderstandings. (for this, please, inform the times in both GMT and EST or whatever you people use over there - but I can't tell what time it will be if you just tell "come online at 20:00 EST" - I know it's a stick in the butt for you to figure out GMT, but it's even worse if someone doesn't show up)

[Knife]

Who's my new partner

I'll try my best to find you a partner once you confirm that you'll be able to play. The reason why I'm not trying so hard right now is that I wasn't sure you can play.

Since it seems like "Should planking be banned (stalling by ledgehogging)?" is winning on "Yes", how is this to be determined? Ledge Grab Limit would sort things out well, but that only would be applicable if the match goes to time. How do you define planking, and how would you be able to tell the players on how to agree whether a player was planking or not?

I thought I was winning. It's not like it had rules for that kind of stuff, so I assumed the rules I usually play with would be correct to use. At any rate, I admit for not reading and memorizing the rules that thoroughly, since I was in a major position when making them. I am recalling correctly, I always try to bait my opponents whether it's using a laggy move from a safe distance or by planking, for example.

That tournament didn't specify anything about it being a draw either, but that doesn't really matter anymore, since I won regardless. "but my turnip throwing made you stop several times" - why didn't you just throw one on me during the last time?

Seems like all the rules are going to be exactly the opposite of what I'm used to, lol. Well, if the majority wants it..

Twelve minutes? That's going to be a boring hour. (double MK without team attack gogo, for 5 matches)

Anyway, good luck for getting this organized. I can already see the pain in figuring out times for four people and prevent any and all misunderstandings. (for this, please, inform the times in both GMT and EST or whatever you people use over there - but I can't tell what time it will be if you just tell "come online at 20:00 EST" - I know it's a stick in the butt for you to figure out GMT, but it's even worse if someone doesn't show up)

I figured it was pretty obvious to tell when a player is planking. But if you want a specific number, let's just say ledgegrabbing 5 times in a row. I'd rather just leave planking open to interpretation to the players, but if you want a number...

That match or tournament isn't relevant to how well we play against each other. Going by raw match count, we're just about even. I wish Brawl had a win/loss counter against player, like Pokemon does. Next time, I'll beat your Waha Ass, be warned .

I am strongly opposed to allowing Sudden Death matches to determine anything, but the score is even now and if it does win, I'll just have to accept it too. Nothing against sudden death personally, I just don't like how those Bob-ombs just come out of nowhere. It becomes more of a shielding match then.

Of course it's gonna be a boring hour, no one likes to play matches against two MKs that go to time anyway, whether its 10 minutes or 12 minutes.

And yeah guys, please be specific about your match times and availability when setting up matches, including time zones. If you do set up matches, please be show up on time or give the courtesy to inform them that you won't be able to make it. I already anticipate extensions, so I'm pretty sure this will extend past 5 weeks.

About lag issues: There is a high likelihood that you will experience some lag. Try playing on weekday nights and turn off all internet connected devices (or don't just download shit) when you play to reduce lag. If there are still major lag issues after several attempts to play let me know.

Edited September 1, 2011 by Knitty

[Quintessence]

Huh? What the? Bob-ombs in Sudden Death? I never knew bombs appeared in Sudden Death...haha lol, I guess it was because my Sudden Death matches lasted 8 seconds as maximum lol.

And, I don't know what's the problem with time limit, since no one wishes to stay hours static in a match. I mean, if someone is "fleeing" from attacks and just dodging every movement, his/her opponent will surely, successfully, hunt him and blow up his head.

[mmKALLL]

What about ledgehogging for its original purpose, to keep your opponent away while he/she is recovering? Lots of characters can have huge air times. If I use an aerial, would the counter reset? "I'd rather just leave planking open to interpretation to the players, but if you want a number..." I believe that the "rule" about who is leading was open to interpretation as well, and you saw how it turned out. At any rate, I doubt that I interpret planking much more strictly in a sense than anyone here except Kaoz and Xeylode, maybe, since it includes so much more freeness for me. I wouldn't say that I was planking in match a, while my opponent, who maybe hasn't even seen some planking by excellent plankers (or some other reason) would say that it's planking.

As for being even, you saw how I took MK and totally handed you your *** in the extra match, since that was about the only time I seriously was serious (or could be, most matches had too much lag anyway) (and even then I didn't plank for excessive amounts of time). Until next time : ]

[Kaoz]

I am strongly opposed to allowing Sudden Death matches to determine anything, but the score is even now and if it does win, I'll just have to accept it too. Nothing against sudden death personally, I just don't like how those Bob-ombs just come out of nowhere. It becomes more of a shielding match then.

Bob-ombs start falling around 15 seconds after the start of the Sudden Death (going of memory here, might only be 12 seconds or something). As you basically need only one hit to KO your opponent, that should be plenty of time and it's your own fault if you fail to do so. That's how I see it at least.

That being said, if we use a timer (which we should), and %s don't matter (which is the current poll result), Sudden Death is basically the only viable option (well, not the only one, you could also have a rematch I guess... same characters, same stage), as you need to decide a winner in case of a time-out.

[mmKALLL]

I would like some input from the four players who voted that "% doesn't matter for results," as to why they picked this option?

Also, how are stages to be determined? Everyone in the IP Chat and losers pick? Just let the WFC do its thing? Did we have the stage list? Opening post sure doesn't.

[Zanarkin]

The reason for why combined % doesn't win is because 2 players could have 100 + 100 while their oponent might have something like 170 + 10.

Also, many times percentage doesn't work against some people since they can easily take on their oponent, skyrocket their percentage, and kill them before the other guy does anything (this has happened before...)

[Knife]

What about ledgehogging for its original purpose, to keep your opponent away while he/she is recovering? Lots of characters can have huge air times. If I use an aerial, would the counter reset? "I'd rather just leave planking open to interpretation to the players, but if you want a number..." I believe that the "rule" about who is leading was open to interpretation as well, and you saw how it turned out. At any rate, I doubt that I interpret planking much more strictly in a sense than anyone here except Kaoz and Xeylode, maybe, since it includes so much more freeness for me. I wouldn't say that I was planking in match a, while my opponent, who maybe hasn't even seen some planking by excellent plankers (or some other reason) would say that it's planking.

As for being even, you saw how I took MK and totally handed you your *** in the extra match, since that was about the only time I seriously was serious (or could be, most matches had too much lag anyway) (and even then I didn't plank for excessive amounts of time). Until next time : ]

If you use the ledge for edge/ledgeguarding, that's fine. I still don't see why you would need to drop off the ledge 5 times to do it though, just hang on the ledge until they come closer.

Also, stage list is still open to discussion until Round 1 starts, so that's why I haven't posted it up yet. Stage selection is basically open to anything, except for the stages which the teams agree not to play on. You may collborate and allow each other to choose stages, but that's optional.

@Bolded: Who's Mr. John now?

Bob-ombs start falling around 15 seconds after the start of the Sudden Death (going of memory here, might only be 12 seconds or something). As you basically need only one hit to KO your opponent, that should be plenty of time and it's your own fault if you fail to do so. That's how I see it at least.

That being said, if we use a timer (which we should), and %s don't matter (which is the current poll result), Sudden Death is basically the only viable option (well, not the only one, you could also have a rematch I guess... same characters, same stage), as you need to decide a winner in case of a time-out.

Sudden Death is a really tense time, where players naturally might want to play more cautiously. Not to mention some characters are just waaay better at SD, especially those with speedy side B moves.

If there is no timer and % doesn't matter, then obviously the match would be a draw. In the event of a draw, you could do six minutes (assuming timer is used) and two stocks with same characters/stage.

The reason for why combined % doesn't win is because 2 players could have 100 + 100 while their oponent might have something like 170 + 10.

Also, many times percentage doesn't work against some people since they can easily take on their oponent, skyrocket their percentage, and kill them before the other guy does anything (this has happened before...)

This. Plus, percentages mean different things for different characters. Is a Jiggly with 80% in the same position as a Bowser with 80%?

Xanderdog, I need to know whether you'll be able to play in the tournament or not.

Edited September 2, 2011 by Knitty

[Kaoz]

I would like some input from the four players who voted that "% doesn't matter for results," as to why they picked this option?

I voted for SD for the reasons I explained earlier.

Sudden Death is a really tense time, where players naturally might want to play more cautiously. Not to mention some characters are just waaay better at SD, especially those with speedy side B moves.

If all you have to do is to land one hit, 15 seconds is plenty of time to do so, even if you're cautious.

MK is a better character than Ganondorf, your argument is invalid.