Fire Emblem: A Sacred Dawn DX

[Onmi]

I was about to post and say exactly the same thing myself. Usually when I see someone's writing that offends me as much as Ray seems to have offended Polaris, I offer to help them with their writing and point out specific flaws and wordings in order to improve their abilities. 1,000 words of criticism will never have the power that 10 words of wisdom do.

Polaris DID offer to help, he has no desire to improve and doesn't want help. He's posted in a public forum and since ego stroking doesn't seem to be helping him not post crap, criticism is the correct method. If he doesn't want to be criticized then IMPROVE.

Edited July 20, 2013 by Onmi

[CT075]

all i really saw was "here read these and you'll get better"

"oh yeah i'm a professional editor have fun being mediocre"

[Onmi]

all i really saw was "here read these and you'll get better"

"oh yeah i'm a professional editor have fun being mediocre"

I would feel for him if he A. Wasn't an adult and B. He hadn't already STATED that he doesn't want help

I've had a few people offer some writing help, but I've turned them down, mostly to see if I can keep at it on my own, but also partly for another reason - in real life I have abysmal self-esteem, am extremely lazy, and I absolutely hate to impose on anyone, which is another reason why I'm one man job.

If he wants help. He should ask for it. If he doesn't want help, then he should take the criticism and try to improve. He's a grown man. Specifically if he's claiming that he doesn't want help and that he wants to do this himself, then pointing him to books he can reference to improve IS THE BEST THING YOU CAN DO FOR HIM. And if his response to people trying to point him to things he can use to improve is flat out ignorance, then he deserves every vicious thing he gets.

Nobody got better because you wanted to spare their feelings. People get better when you point out the flaws. So they can improve.

[Mage Knight 404]

If he wants help. He should ask for it. If he doesn't want help, then he should take the criticism and try to improve. He's a grown man. Specifically if he's claiming that he doesn't want help and that he wants to do this himself, then pointing him to books he can reference to improve IS THE BEST THING YOU CAN DO FOR HIM. And if his response to people trying to point him to things he can use to improve is flat out ignorance, then he deserves every vicious thing he gets.

Nobody got better because you wanted to spare their feelings. People get better when you point out the flaws. So they can improve.

Well. I'll just say these two things.

1. As I said later in that SA thread, you'd have to talk with me one-on-one to understand why I'm like this.

2. Since then someone looked through that topic, PMed me, and offered to help with ideas and I accepted the offer, aside from like one other person and my editor who are on hand. Probably not enough but it's a start.

Sooo...

Edited July 20, 2013 by Mage Knight 404

[Onmi]

Well. I'll just say these two things.

1. As I said later in that SA thread, you'd have to talk with me one-on-one to understand why I'm like this.

2. Since then someone PMed me and offered to help with ideas and I accepted the offer, aside from like one other person and my editor. Might not be enough but it's a start.

So.

So if your now receptive to help. SAY THAT! Nothing will happen if you clam up. Get more editors, you will find people. Screen them, get a variety of opinions, hell get opinions from people who DON'T like the hack, lots of feedback will help it grow.

Long story short is no one is going to help you if you wont help yourself. If you asked people would probably help.

[Polaris]

So if your now receptive to help. SAY THAT! Nothing will happen if you clam up. Get more editors, you will find people. Screen them, get a variety of opinions, hell get opinions from people who DON'T like the hack, lots of feedback will help it grow.

Long story short is no one is going to help you if you wont help yourself. If you asked people would probably help.

I would have been glad to help if he had asked. I pointed him to those references because he has said several times before that he doesn't want any. So it goes.

[Mage Knight 404]

I would have been glad to help if he had asked. I pointed him to those references because he has said several times before that he doesn't want any. So it goes.

Reading references or books is not how I want to get my help because I don't roll that way(I don't even like reading books all that much and let's be honest, it's way too serious of a suggestion for a not-so-serious project). I'm far more partial to having a one-on-one with someone going through whatever's wrong, then tell me about it, offer ways to try and improve it, and just go back and forth until we get somewhere. That, I'm much better with doing as opposed to a bunch of people doing it at once.

But at the end of the day I'm just trying to have some fun on a not-so-serious thing and go at my own pace, and if I think I can try to do something on my own, I'll try it on my own. If people like it, great. If not, oh well I tried.

[Onmi]

Okay then, legitimate criticism time. Lets look at how your game plays timing wise.

Start of game to end of chapter 1: 46:00
Start of game to end of chapter 1 (no dialogue): 12:47

For the record this was functionally played blind by the tester. Your dialogue has added on a full 33:13 minutes which is nothing but text the player is forced to sit through. Just for reference we're doing the start of Lyn Mode to the end of chapter 1

Start of game (Lyn Mode) to end of chapter 1 all dialogue including talks: 9:47

It's unreasonable to expect the player sit through such long dialogues with so little gameplay. The expectation in a hack is being able to put it up and put it down, without save states. It's almost an hour for two chapters. One of which is the prologue, only two enemies. Even text heavy games like the SRW series, which try to show off all their large casts, the dialogues aren't this large, even at the end of the game.

Serious editing should be put forth here. On top of that, chapter 1 is further made longer by Raymond's part of the map, which serves no purpose to the overall structure but to pad out an already long chapter. You could cut out the entire bottom half of the map and nothing would be lost.

Fire Emblem shouldn't be Metal Gear Solid.

[DH_Ninja]

I'm eventually going to play this, but, I must ask you good sir.

What's wrong with story building and dialog? Also what do you have against Metal Gear Solid? If someone is playing a game for the sake of gameplay alone then they have a skip button to use.

[FrostyFireMage]

Wanna know something? I am paid to tell people their writing is terrible and to improve that same writing; that is to say, I am a fucking editor and I do this as a career. If you clicked on those links I added in, those are reference books, not novels, and all they require is that you apply a few of the principles in there to your writing if you want to have a solid base. I can't save your style, which is terrible, but at the least you could attempt to not be egregiously bad in terms of devices, language, and grammar.

I cannot understand how you enjoy being so aggressively terrible at everything you do, while ignoring any real advice given to you, since obviously people circlejerking to you is what you enjoy. It's pretty clear you have no intention of getting the player involved in the game experience, so maybe you're better off writing terrible fanfiction for people who haven't read a good book in their lives.

For reference, he literally posted a pile of words on another forum about how he has no intention of improving.

By the way, there is an easier way of writing this, and that is "Hey guys I'm kind of really happy with being mediocre so please stop giving me advice :) kthnx xoxo"

It's not like he's getting paid for this, you know. I don't think he's going for Shakespeare quality here, dude.

[Crimson Red]

Let him do things how he wants. Not improving and not wanting to fix things sort of means he'll have to deal with people who don't appreciate that, but if he has his reasons, that's that really, there's not much anyone can do.

Granted I don't find the writing the best either but it's just a hack so... yeah, that's that. @Polaris, I'd say relax and leave it be, you tried and if he doesn't get your message after that or simply doesn't want to act on it, there's nothing to be done lol.

on a side note I'm a terrible writer in practice so while I could proofread and critique I'm inclined not to unless people take the initiative first

[Polaris]

I'm eventually going to play this, but, I must ask you good sir.

What's wrong with story building and dialog? Also what do you have against Metal Gear Solid? If someone is playing a game for the sake of gameplay alone then they have a skip button to use.

You should really play it/read the dialogue before you comment on it.

Chapter 1 Part 1

this is some poor sap who tried to LP the game, and you can see his soul drain as he does it

Edited July 20, 2013 by Polaris

[Onmi]

I'm eventually going to play this, but, I must ask you good sir.

What's wrong with story building and dialog? Also what do you have against Metal Gear Solid? If someone is playing a game for the sake of gameplay alone then they have a skip button to use.

I have nothing against MGS, I have something against 33 minutes of text that can be compressed into 10. It's not story building, it's filler. Hell I would even forgive it if it was well written. it isn't.

And what if I don't WANT to skip all of it? What if I wanted to see the world as was written. If something is long and bad, being skippable is not deflection for criticism. You are basically admitting "Yes it's a piece of shit, it's a long piece of shit, but it's skippable."

The problem isn't that there's a lot of text. it's that the amount of text serves no purpose.

It's not like he's getting paid for this, you know. I don't think he's going for Shakespeare quality here, dude.

Clearly, if it was shakespeare it would be shorter. And more crude. Because Shakespeare was nothing but sex jokes and vulgar humor.

Also your argument "He doesn't have to strive for quality because it's for his own fun" that's fine... Don't post it on the internet. It's been posted, it's public. Congratulations you get criticism. I have my own projects I don't post here because they are purely personal. You take the good you take the bad and there you get the facts of life.

[Tryhard]

this is some poor sap who tried to LP the game, and you can see his soul drain as he does it

You mean someone who went into it already expecting to hate it, and continued to play it just so he could mock it?

I feel so sorry for him. Really.

Edited July 20, 2013 by Kelsper

[Shugey]

The main problem with the character expositions is that most of them are done before we actually have a reason to care about the characters. Compare Ruby's introduction to Charlie's. Ruby gets paragraphs of text about her despite doing little of interest at this time, while Charlie is given a intro after he proves himself as a character of plot relevance that people would probably want to know a bit more about. Most of it is timing.

Then again, it's not supposed to be my writing style or hack, so he can do whatever he feels like for dialogue. It's a GBAFE game, you can skip all of the text. I'm not going to ask him to rewrite the entire hack because I personally don't like parts of it.

[Alfred Kamon]

You're being too hard on him.

This is a fan-made project, not an official release or anything. If he wishes to take this path with his story and his characterization, it's his choice. I don't think that he should completely change his style and his story just to fit someone's desires and standards. Hell, if you don't like the choices he made with this hack, you could either:

- try another hack

- make your own

This kind of criticism may be constructive, but it's rather offensive.

Personally I think that even only the fact that he made a hack like this all by himself and on FE8 engine deserves to be praised.

Sure, the gameplay and the story would benefit from a little cut here and there, but overall I can't say that it isn't enjoyable. It's just a different kind of gaming experience.

I don't see why some people must be so fierce about a fanmade non-profit project.

[FrostyFireMage]

As someone who has been marginalized by most people for much of his life for having unique tastes (among other things), I can certainly understand how much this criticism must suck.

I was only wondering if I could somehow help MK404 fine-tune this project. I haven't been scrutinizing his work and blowing the flaws out of proportion for funzies or anything.

If what I said previously came across that way, I apologize.

Edited July 20, 2013 by Frosty Fire Mage

[Crimson Red]

^I dunno, I've almost given in to the idea that it's just a thing and people have absolutely nothing better to do than to bash projects when they feel like it. I think people also forget the "fanmade" and "non-profit" parts. Maybe some just enjoy complaining? Who knows XD

Obviously there are also people who are legitimately trying to help, but in this case I think it's been made pretty clear he's not outright looking for that kind of help.

Also your argument "He doesn't have to strive for quality because it's for his own fun" that's fine... Don't post it on the internet. It's been posted, it's public. Congratulations you get criticism. I have my own projects I don't post here because they are purely personal. You take the good you take the bad and there you get the facts of life.

Can't tell if this is intended at me but there are people who will enjoy the project even he does it for fun. He can't release it ONLY to the people who will like it. That's highly impractical. So yeah, I guess it's a sort of trade-off, if the people who like it or will potentially like it are to have the chance to enjoy it, there are those who don't like it/potentially won't like it who will try the hack and feel compelled to say something about those parts that they did not like.

I think the problem arises in that it's rather to difficult to deal with those that don't like it mostly because the hacking scene has this weird environment where people can actually get into direct contact with the creators of the hacks and also, hacks are usually considered works in progress (let's be honest most hacks don't finish and even once they do they still need updating sometimes), so it's a sort of scene where people feel there's little excuse not to improve on things since A) the creators can receive critique easily and B) it's a "W.I.P." so it's only natural it should be fixed

most people either overlook flaws, submit to not liking them and skip those parts of the game, or just outright don't play the game, but there are people who want to help, feel compelled to say something, or just find entertainment in stuff like reviewing or LP'ing the hack or whatever, not much to be done there

--------------

Okay back to focusing a little more

Alfred, it's less about his choices and more about just writing better in general, I think. There are certain elements of structure, timing, length, exposition, etc. that are generally accepted as preferable one way over another. While everyone can have their own style, I don't really think it's the "style" that's the issue here, if that makes sense.

Most everyone else isn't arguing about the writing so much that it doesn't matter/can be overlooked but it's really up to MK404 whether he is receptive to or not and I think he's made it pretty clear he's not so that's that (though now I'm really tempted to play the hack and do an in-depth review of it lolol)

tl;dr

you can't expect people not to say anything about bad writing even if it's fan-made, just look at TLP which has awful, inconsistent writing with tons of plot holes, but at the same time said people need to be willing to back-off once they've said their piece or else it just becomes annoying lol (and that's where I've personally had my problems, people going from constructive criticizers to total assholes and crossing the line without even realizing it because they never saw a line to start with)

damn I just made two serious and slightly intelligent posts in a row, what's wrong with me? need to go back to being an idiot

herp derp

[Alfred Kamon]

Blazer, I get what you're saying. I'm the first to think that every work, even fanmade ones, should be done well.

The fact that it is "fanmade" is not an excuse to make a shallow product.

The fact is, I don't think that A Sacred Dawn DX is shallow. MK404 put a lot of effort in the dialogues and some people - me included - found them enjoyable.

So, what makes this hack horrible for someone and enjoyable and cool for others?

The expectations.

It's pretty clear by reading the posts in the previous pages, where people just tend to compare this hack to the original FE games. It's obvious that the quantity of text differs, given the kind of approach MK404 has. In the original FE games, text is short because the characters are presented with two lines and they disappear for the rest of the game. In A Sacred Dawn DX every character is relevant to the plot and because of that there are a lot of interactions, which need more text.

If you expect the usual FE game you end being disappointed, but if you're open to something new, you can appreciate it.

Now, the point is: what did MK404 want to deliver with this hack?

A classical FE feeling? If this is the case, I immediately second the others and say that he's doing a terrible job at it.

A story-driven hack? If it's like this - and I think it is unless he himself states the opposite - then he's doing a good job, even if he has to better some points like timing and quantity of text: it is possible to say the same things with less words, and FE8 accepts up to 40 characters per text line so why is every sentence splitted so much? These are things that can be improved if he's willing to do so.

That said, I have to admit that the first time I played ASD DX I was expecting a more classical FE experience, and the bunch of text annoyed me in the prologue and in the first part of chapter 1. But from the end of chapter 1 I understood where this was going and I changed my mindset; I made some tea and I sat, reading the text calmly and actually enjoying it.

Every hack is different and I think it is utopical to think that it can please everyone.

If someone asked me to suggest him a hack, I'd personally answer him to try:

- The Last Promise for a completed hack

- Dream of Five for a well-balanced hack

- A Sacred Dawn DX for a slow-paced story-driven hack

- My project for the best hack

...

joking, I'm just trolling myself XD

(I can't suggest the others because those are pretty much the ones I've played)

But I think that every project has a heart and a different taste to it.

My message for MK404 is this: keep it up man. What you're attempting to do is good, and quite brave - you can improve it like many others stated, but you don't have to scrap everything you've done so far just because it feels different. Ahah, that's the whole point: it HAS to feel different. Good luck with the improvements.

I'm out~

[Wayward Winds]

(I seriously hope I'm not just throwing fuel on a fire here...)

Let's be honest, no matter how good a hack is, there's always going to be someone who finds it atrocious. That doesn't mean it's a bad hack, it just means people have different things they like to find (or not find) when playing. It happens with everything, I personally can't stand Shakespeare, but a lot of people love his work. On the opposite vein, I like Robert Newcomb's books, but I seem to be in a minority (even amongst those who know he exists). Games too; just look at the massive flames wars constantly being launched between the Halo and the Call of Duty fandoms.

The short of the matter is, you can't please everyone.

So, on a Sacred Dawn DX, I'm pretty much in agreement with everything Alfred has said. It's completely different to near everything else in the FE hack genre. I'll admit that I sometimes resort to skim reading the text, but I understand that it is there to tell a story, and to tell a story in considerably more detail than your average Fire Emblem does. Sure, it may seem horribly overblown and unnecessary at times, but how much is going to turn out to be important later on? Hidden amongst the fluff, I'm getting distinct vibes of Chekov's Guns and plenty of foreshadowing, and it keeps me interested (yes, I skim. But that doesn't mean I don't take it in). Not to mention that a good deal of the dialogue does seem like it could actually happen, even if most games don't bother showing this level of casual conversation. This hack takes a unique approach, and makes it stand out. Maybe not in a good way for everyone, but hey, different opinions again.

And a hack isn't just story. There's always the other side of the hack, gameplay, to offer constructive criticism on. For example, while I liked Ch. 3's concept, I didn't like watching...

...Grado and Renais completely ignore each other in order to bash the tiny band of bystanders. I know that is a issue with Fire Emblem itself, seeing as it doesn't support three way battles, but it could be easily solved by not having Grado troops starting out right up against Renais lines. Seeing as I immediately pushed towards Grado and left Renais behind, that was the only part which made the flaw blindingly obvious.

MK404 has put a lot of work into this, it isn't a mere reskin as his earlier FE7 hack was (which I can't seem to find, grrr), it's essentially a full conversion with its own plot to go along with completely new characters and missions. For that alone, I'd be willing to cut him some slack. There are flaws, and even I balked at how much text I had read through to reach Ch. 6's battle, but everyone to his own. I for one will be interested to see where it goes from here.

Oh, and Blazer/Burning Gravity? I think your hack's gameplay has more than made up for the awkward writing!

[Klokinator]

How about just thinking of it less as a game with story elements, and more as a story with game elements? It's like a visual novel. Lots of people enjoy visual novels. And in fact, the writing style is very similar to a visual novel. Once, I made a topic on a forum (I tried looking it up but it appears to be gone) about making a fire emblem hack with zero gameplay, and the whole thing is just a story. It's a flexible dialogue engine, better than the average VN engine. You can have characters move around on a map, multiple characters in a scene talking, characters can "hop" to indicate things (surprise, happiness, excitement, the list goes on) things can happen on the map including the little exclamation bubble, screen shaking, magic map animations, warping, and etc. Much like how some VN's have a long long area of dialogue, then a bit of gameplay to spice up the monotony, that's how I and many other people view Ray's hack.

It's a Fire Emblem VN, pretty much the bottom line.

[ThatGuyDownTheStreet]

Anyways, diverging from this topic, I thought that:

Sothe's death

was rather interesting. I've always thought that crossover hacks are inclined to use to fully utilize as many characters from other games as possible, but I think the way you integrated:

a sort of sad feeling when the Dawn Brigade is talking to Julie & Co.

really put together a sense of how deaths among those who are close to you during times of war, which I don't think I've seen a lot of in FE hacks. Well done indeed. I haven't had time to play it through, but I might be able to do something after FEE3.

[Caliban of Sycorax]

I love how everyone's complaining about the dialogue and telling him to read novels.

Novelists aren't dialogue writers; they write descriptions. Playwrights and screenwriters write dialogue. Ray, if you want advice on cleaning up the dialogue, read some plays. David Mamet and Neil LaBute are good choices for how to write natural human speech. Their lines mimic human interaction.

Anyway. His dialogue is long-winded and maybe over descriptive at times, but he's not a bad writer. He doesn't write for a living, so it's not expected of him to write award-worthy material.

[Mage Knight 404]

I prefer drawing stuff over writing stuff. Even if it's hard to get those creative juices flowing.

Like right now, those bloody animations...

[Mangs]

I prefer drawing stuff over writing stuff. Even if it's hard to get those creative juices flowing.

Like right now, those bloody animations...

While you're at it, draw me some pictures of Amy in a sexy night gown will ya?