Mechanics that you want

[Othin]

I'm against intergrated orders, especially if SPD is the stat used. I mean, it's already used to determine doubles and gives 2 AVO for each point, and now it's determining turn order too?

As I have been saying (and showed with a video), the system I am proposing is the Berwick Saga system, in which the player has full control over turn order on any given turn, which is where almost all of the strategy added by the feature comes from. Character stats don't have the slightest bit of relevance to how turns are decided.

Edited November 18, 2011 by Othin

[Momo]

Well now you're really got me curious. Would you (or BewYeti) care to elaborate?

It just feels like I have less control over what happens. The way it is now, you get to move your entire army, and also know that once you're done, the enemy moves all of theirs (or most, at least). The way you suggested makes it too annoying to plan out moves based on what the AI does, since it can just move anyone while you're in the middle of your turns.

[General Banzai]

I too am not fond of the integrated turn order system, at least how it is in Shining Force which is the only series I've played that uses it.

[uguu]

If you watched even a bit of that video you would have realized that it's actually nothing like Shining Force. In SF you're forced to use units in the order given. I haven't played Berwick Saga, but I think the way it does things looks interesting, and also more realistic I guess. I don't really get how it works, but I guess it has player phases, enemy phases, and npc phases, it's just that each side can only move one unit per phase. Though, I think it would work better to have that be a thing, but make it so that in a given turn all units would be used once.

[Othin]

It just feels like I have less control over what happens. The way it is now, you get to move your entire army, and also know that once you're done, the enemy moves all of theirs (or most, at least). The way you suggested makes it too annoying to plan out moves based on what the AI does, since it can just move anyone while you're in the middle of your turns.

Enemies seem to have a priority order for when to move their units, although I'm not sure it holds in all circumstances. That said, with that combined with knowing how many units the enemy will move and when, it's about as predictable as the standard FE turn system.

Edited November 18, 2011 by Othin

[Cysx]

Enemies seem to have a priority order for when to move their units, although I'm not sure it holds in all circumstances. That said, with that combined with knowing how many units the enemy will move and when, it's about as predictable as the standard FE turn system.

This system seems interesting, but it mustn't be forgotten that one of the main strenghts of Fire Emblem is how simple a system it has, yet how hard the game is in spite of this. This is the complete opposite of most S-rpgs I've played; pretty complicated(yet I might add exploitable)systems but way too easy games in the end. Felt like they needed to make them pretty simple for the player not to be overwhelmed. Which would probably happen if they didn't. Long story short, I prefer the opposite.

And most good games work like this: easy to play, but challenging.

Seriously, has anyone here ever tried to calculate how much damage your character'll do before attacking, in Disgaea? This is pointlessly hard. And you'll probably end up with the wrong number anyway. So in the end, you stop trying to know things like this. You simply attack and hope the opponent will die. And while I enjoyed Disgaea, this is not how a good S-rpg should be. That's how a good RPG should be.

And while Berwick saga may be different, what you describe feels like it'd need way too much planning. Is it a hard game?

[BwdYeti]

I like player and enemy turn themes, when it jumps between teams per unit you just get one map theme >:

I guess the biggest part I don't like about integrated turns is the difficulty in planning ahead. Even if you can see the turn order for dozens of turns ahead it's too much to keep track of.

FE suffers a bit here in that the player thus CAN plan ahead while the AI has no idea how to play, but that's more an issue with IS needing to stop being terrible at making AI. And given permadeath it's not a huge issue, giving the player a handicap

Though that wouldn't be as much a problem with Berwick Saga's turn system...? I'm gathering it works like Chess. That would make it easier to predict things than preset integrated turns, and require some real skill and forethought to do so... but the pacing of time seems to break down. I'm really not liking the idea that one unit could circle the map in the turns it would take to move the whole army forward one move interval. And things happening on specific turn numbers seem like they'd make less sense

[bottlegnomes]

I like player and enemy turn themes, when it jumps between teams per unit you just get one map theme >:

I guess the biggest part I don't like about integrated turns is the difficulty in planning ahead. Even if you can see the turn order for dozens of turns ahead it's too much to keep track of.

FE suffers a bit here in that the player thus CAN plan ahead while the AI has no idea how to play, but that's more an issue with IS needing to stop being terrible at making AI. And given permadeath it's not a huge issue, giving the player a handicap

Though that wouldn't be as much a problem with Berwick Saga's turn system...? I'm gathering it works like Chess. That would make it easier to predict things than preset integrated turns, and require some real skill and forethought to do so... but the pacing of time seems to break down. I'm really not liking the idea that one unit could circle the map in the turns it would take to move the whole army forward one move interval. And things happening on specific turn numbers seem like they'd make less sense

The planning part, I guess, is true, but I haven't played it so who knows. As for the turn event things, from the videos I watched, which was all of YayMarsha's, there are turns and every unit gets to go once a turn and once every unit has gone the turn ends, so it's be like this:

You have 3 units, the enemy has 10. There's an event that happens on turn two. On the first turn you get to move a unit, any unit. Then the enemy gets to move 3. Then you get to move another unit, but not the one that you just moved. Then the enemy moves 4 more. Then you get to move your third unit, since the other two have moved already they can't move again, like in FE. Then the enemy moves the last three units. Then turn two starts and the event that is set to occur on turn two happens. Then you repeat the process.

Anyway, IMO that would be kind of interesting, so long as you got to move whichever unit you want, not like Shining Force where you have to move them in a certain order the game determines. That's just fucking annoying.

Edited November 18, 2011 by bottlegnomes

[arvilino]

I like player and enemy turn themes, when it jumps between teams per unit you just get one map theme >:

I guess the biggest part I don't like about integrated turns is the difficulty in planning ahead. Even if you can see the turn order for dozens of turns ahead it's too much to keep track of.

FE suffers a bit here in that the player thus CAN plan ahead while the AI has no idea how to play, but that's more an issue with IS needing to stop being terrible at making AI. And given permadeath it's not a huge issue, giving the player a handicap

Though that wouldn't be as much a problem with Berwick Saga's turn system...? I'm gathering it works like Chess. That would make it easier to predict things than preset integrated turns, and require some real skill and forethought to do so... but the pacing of time seems to break down. I'm really not liking the idea that one unit could circle the map in the turns it would take to move the whole army forward one move interval. And things happening on specific turn numbers seem like they'd make less sense

From what Othin has said I'm quite sure Berwick Saga isn't like Chess but more like a combination of Chess and Fire Emblem. player, enemy and ally movement are all integrated as opposed to separate phases, but a character can only move once per turn and a turn ends after every unit on the map has made a move. So there probably couldn't be a situation where a character could circle the map like you're suggesting.

[Othin]

This system seems interesting, but it mustn't be forgotten that one of the main strenghts of Fire Emblem is how simple a system it has, yet how hard the game is in spite of this. This is the complete opposite of most S-rpgs I've played; pretty complicated(yet I might add exploitable)systems but way too easy games in the end. Felt like they needed to make them pretty simple for the player not to be overwhelmed. Which would probably happen if they didn't. Long story short, I prefer the opposite.

And most good games work like this: easy to play, but challenging.

Seriously, has anyone here ever tried to calculate how much damage your character'll do before attacking, in Disgaea? This is pointlessly hard. And you'll probably end up with the wrong number anyway. So in the end, you stop trying to know things like this. You simply attack and hope the opponent will die. And while I enjoyed Disgaea, this is not how a good S-rpg should be. That's how a good RPG should be.

And while Berwick saga may be different, what you describe feels like it'd need way too much planning. Is it a hard game?

Personally, I would not agree that the simplicity of the rest of the FE series either benefits it or allows it to become notably difficult, but I can agree to disagree.

I don't know much about Disgaea, but Berwick Saga's features, while more complex, are entirely manageable. And indeed you'll have to manage them to make it through the game; I've found myself having to think ahead up to the end of the current turn at most times, but no farther, so it's all reasonable. Enemies have all sorts of tricks, and while there are tricks that can be abused in Berwick Saga, there's nothing nearly as easy or effective to abuse as a character in the rest of the series with the defense to take a hit, the speed to double, and the power to 2HKO all while armed with a Javelin or Hand Axe. So yes, I would call Berwick Saga a difficult game.

From what Othin has said I'm quite sure Berwick Saga isn't like Chess but more like a combination of Chess and Fire Emblem. player, enemy and ally movement are all integrated as opposed to separate phases, but a character can only move once per turn and a turn ends after every unit on the map has made a move. So there probably couldn't be a situation where a character could circle the map like you're suggesting.

Indeed, this is the case.

[Snowy_One]

I really wish I could/had played it. I currently dislike FE's current stat-heavy unit setup and really wish for a change. I don't think the stat-system FE uses should be thrown out (maybe switch the AVO boosts of SPD and luck, but that's about it) and, while I can see the advantages of the intergreated, I'm just not as sold on it. there's nothing nearly as easy or effective to abuse as a character in the rest of the series with the defense to take a hit, the speed to double, and the power to 2HKO all while armed with a Javelin or Hand Axe. I agree that it really sucks when some units get so many advantages as to steamroll the game. It's why I hate Jiegans and such after all. I would love a FE game where each unit is distinct in his/her advantages and disadvantages making it less of 'well this unit is better' and more of 'this unit helps my playstyle more'.

[Othin]

There's nothing stopping you from playing it. It was a bit of an issue before detailed gameplay information was available online in English, but now it is.

[CrashGordon94]

Well, it still kinda is. You have to import a foreign PS2 game for a foreign/cracked PS2 console and then you have to have all the information there instead of in a patch like the NES/SNES games and FE6.

EDIT: Unless I'm mistaken.

Edited November 19, 2011 by CrashGordon94

[Othin]

It's $20 online, and while I prefer physical copies myself, it's not necessary.

Language barrier doesn't take long to get used to, either.

[Dark Sage]

I really wish I could/had played it. I currently dislike FE's current stat-heavy unit setup and really wish for a change. I don't think the stat-system FE uses should be thrown out (maybe switch the AVO boosts of SPD and luck, but that's about it) and, while I can see the advantages of the intergreated, I'm just not as sold on it. there's nothing nearly as easy or effective to abuse as a character in the rest of the series with the defense to take a hit, the speed to double, and the power to 2HKO all while armed with a Javelin or Hand Axe. I agree that it really sucks when some units get so many advantages as to steamroll the game. It's why I hate Jiegans and such after all. I would love a FE game where each unit is distinct in his/her advantages and disadvantages making it less of 'well this unit is better' and more of 'this unit helps my playstyle more'.

Maybe you shouldn't play FE then.

@Bolded: Why would luck play more of a role in avoid than speed? How does that make any logical sense?

[CrashGordon94]

It's $20 online, and while I prefer physical copies myself, it's not necessary.

Language barrier doesn't take long to get used to, either.

What, are there PS2 emulators now?

Actually, it could be a serious problem for some people. Like me, I couldn't play Berwick Saga unless it was PATCHED to be in English, having English-language information about the game is simply not enough for me. I'm probably not the only one either.

[NinjaMonkey]

If you kill all the enemies, your reward is getting to twiddle your thumbs in a completely empty map.

That's why there are enemy reinforcements on every turn... at least in FE10. Besides, there is usually a second win condition (ie Kill Boss), so you could just do that to end the chapter faster.

Edited November 19, 2011 by NinjaMonkey

[Othin]

What, are there PS2 emulators now?

Actually, it could be a serious problem for some people. Like me, I couldn't play Berwick Saga unless it was PATCHED to be in English, having English-language information about the game is simply not enough for me. I'm probably not the only one either.

Indeed there are. I used one initially to play Berwick Saga before I found out that a PS2 could be modded relatively easily to play Japanese games, although the framerate was abysmal. Not sure whether it was the emulator or my computer being too old to handle it, though.

Have you ever actually tried playing a game that way? It's not as difficult as it might sound.

[BwdYeti]

Oh you can't move a unit again until everyone has gone, and after everyone goes would be a turn end. That makes much more sense yeah. I still prefer FE's turns, but that's much better than other integrated systems

[Rothene]

I really wish I could/had played it. I currently dislike FE's current stat-heavy unit setup and really wish for a change. I don't think the stat-system FE uses should be thrown out (maybe switch the AVO boosts of SPD and luck, but that's about it) and, while I can see the advantages of the intergreated, I'm just not as sold on it. there's nothing nearly as easy or effective to abuse as a character in the rest of the series with the defense to take a hit, the speed to double, and the power to 2HKO all while armed with a Javelin or Hand Axe. I agree that it really sucks when some units get so many advantages as to steamroll the game. It's why I hate Jiegans and such after all. I would love a FE game where each unit is distinct in his/her advantages and disadvantages making it less of 'well this unit is better' and more of 'this unit helps my playstyle more'.

making it less of 'well this unit is better' and more of 'this unit helps my playstyle more'.

What if my favourite day off playstyle is 'I wanna steamroll everyone with this untouchable hax tome user with teleporting powerz'?

[CrashGordon94]

Indeed there are. I used one initially to play Berwick Saga before I found out that a PS2 could be modded relatively easily to play Japanese games, although the framerate was abysmal. Not sure whether it was the emulator or my computer being too old to handle it, though.

Have you ever actually tried playing a game that way? It's not as difficult as it might sound.

Well, okay then. Good to know.

No, I really don't want to stare at a bunch of incomprehensible symbols and have to fiddle around with the buttons or stare at a website/sheet of paper/whatever to figure out what they're saying.

[Snowy_One]

@Bolded: Why would luck play more of a role in avoid than speed? How does that make any logical sense?

It's not a question of 'logical sense' sage. It's a question of game balance. Currently Luck affects very little. HP keeps you alive, STR/MAG help you deal damage, SKL helps you hit and crit, SPD allows you to double and provides the majority of your AVO, DEF and RES help you defend against melee and magic respectivally, but Luck only helps with AVO and hit by a small amount (1 AVO/hit per stat) and critical avoidance (useless once you bottom it out to 0). While it may not be worthless, it is defiantly worth less point for point than any other stat except for, arguably, RES and even that is simply because there are less magic-dealing enemies in the game than melee. Luck is the scrappy-stat ATM.

Edit: Upon further reflection, I think the real issue is that SPD controls doubling as well as being the primary AVO stat. After all, look at the two stats side by side with doubling removed from the equation. SPD gives 2 AVO, while Luck gives 1 AVO, 1 hit, and 1 crit AVO. Less amounts, but in two (three if you count crit AVO) areas. I have no idea how to fix this while retaining doubling though.

What if my favourite day off playstyle is 'I wanna steamroll everyone with this untouchable hax tome user with teleporting powerz'?

Then go play Skyrim.

While I wasn't joking, in a more serious tone, the problem with 'steamroll' characters is that they make all other playstyles needlessly cumbersome by compare. Would you rather work hard using multiple status ailments and setting up unique strategies to make your less-bruteforce team able to kill even one unit safely? Or just unleash super mega melee brute to rip through the level without concern? Any player even remotely in their right might would choose the latter, and that is a problem. It's something I've seen happen plenty of times before. When one style of play or class or whatever gets too obviously OP'ed compared to the others, everyone uses it and it detracts from the game a lot.

Edited November 19, 2011 by Snowy_One

[Dark Sage]

It's not a question of 'logical sense' sage. It's a question of game balance. Currently Luck affects very little. HP keeps you alive, STR/MAG help you deal damage, SKL helps you hit and crit, SPD allows you to double and provides the majority of your AVO, DEF and RES help you defend against melee and magic respectivally, but Luck only helps with AVO by a small amount (1 AVO per stat) and critical avoidance (useless once you bottom it out to 0). While it may not be worthless, it is defiantly worth less point for point than any other stat except for, arguably, RES and even that is simply because there are less magic-dealing enemies in the game than melee. Luck is the scrappy-stat ATM.

Yeah, screw making sense! That is so not important at all!

Luck also affects your hit rate too btw.

[Snowy_One]

I remembered and edited in the hit already. It comes up rarely, so I forget about it often.

But yea. Screw making sense! The fallibility of silver weapons (too soft to be used as anything more than ceremonial pieces IRL) has already been mentioned countless times over and such, and realistically, why on earth couldn't a mage wield heavy armor? Just stick a mage in a heavy metal suit, maybe on a carriage if they really can't move, with a hole to see out of and let them drop meteors down on enemy armies! Medieval tanks! Sense often times needs to take a back seat to game balance, especially in a game where strategy is key! You need a balance between things or else huge problems arise.

[Colonel M]

Integrated Turn Order has serious flaws, as I can say right now, because it generally favors units who are normally faster, and your tank units are usually the slowest on the field as is. It probably doesn't help that Shining Force had a fatal flaw with their RNG system (in my opinion) and made turn order so fucked up that I was playing with luck.

If you want me to prove it, I have a log of Shining Force II being played as efficiently as I (possibly) could, and you will notice that Movement still played a momentous factor in it, too. Slade was probably the top dog on my force with Peter, and Bowie / Sarah (Sarah is mentioned due to healing) played integral pieces of the puzzle. Don't forget Eric and Jaro being bosses too!

But yea. Screw making sense! The fallibility of silver weapons (too soft to be used as anything more than ceremonial pieces IRL) has already been mentioned countless times over and such, and realistically, why on earth couldn't a mage wield heavy armor? Just stick a mage in a heavy metal suit, maybe on a carriage if they really can't move, with a hole to see out of and let them drop meteors down on enemy armies!

Been there, already done it. FE4 bro; get with the times.

Edited November 19, 2011 by Colonel M