Mechanics that you want

[Anouleth]

Yeah, I was kinda thinking the same thing. I was thinking it'd be a kill the boss chapter since it'd be hell for a chapter like that to be a rout. Plus, a lot of the units are meant to die, like in a real battle, and you probably won't care since they're generic (though there could and probably would be a reward for keeping more alive) so it would thin out pretty quickly so by the end of the battle it'd basically be your units left with a few others.

True... It's just that I feel that quantity is not necessarily better than quality. It's probably preferable to have the player focus on fewer units. I'm sure that for many players, the generics would be seen as "stealing EXP" from the "real" units, and at the same time, it would be kind of a pain to manage them all. Man, just moving them all would take forever!

Yeah, they could kinda be some random soldiers that accompany you and have very poor growths but decent bases so you can use them early on but later on they'll likely be replaced by real characters. For the last part, isn't that kind of what FE11 and 12 did with generics?

No, I mean that they'd disappear after the chapter ends. They wouldn't be permanent characters, and they wouldn't gain experience or level. And they would be suited to the chapter: for example, you wouldn't get Cavaliers in the desert. Their level and gear would also be chapter dependent, so it would forestall the possibility, as in FE11, of having promoted generics after two chapters. They'd offer a slight advantage in being free (so you could also sacrifice them) and being suited to the chapter, but would otherwise be inferior.

[bottlegnomes]

True... It's just that I feel that quantity is not necessarily better than quality. It's probably preferable to have the player focus on fewer units. I'm sure that for many players, the generics would be seen as "stealing EXP" from the "real" units, and at the same time, it would be kind of a pain to manage them all. Man, just moving them all would take forever!

Well, I just meant one or two chapters, kinda like a grand defensive chapter towards the end of the game and then they'd go away, so you'd still focus on a similar number of characters for the overall game, but you'd have to, or at least would find it much easier to, make use of them for that chapter, like in 2-3 where it's probably better to let the partner units help you out than just make them sit around. Yeah, there are a lot of issues with it for an actual game, hell FE4 can get annoying with moving everyone and that's only like 20 some characters, maybe as a trial map.

No, I mean that they'd disappear after the chapter ends. They wouldn't be permanent characters, and they wouldn't gain experience or level. And they would be suited to the chapter: for example, you wouldn't get Cavaliers in the desert. Their level and gear would also be chapter dependent, so it would forestall the possibility, as in FE11, of having promoted generics after two chapters. They'd offer a slight advantage in being free (so you could also sacrifice them) and being suited to the chapter, but would otherwise be inferior.

The bold part I'm kinda curious about. I guess if you killed everyone off but Marth and Jagen and gave Marth pretty much all of the experience, or is there another way? The rest sounds kinda cool, like if there's a chapter with a lot of flyers give you a few archers, mages with wind tomes, or something else effective against flyers. Though they'd still have to be balanced so you couldn't just deploy a few units that are good for the chapter and then use the generics to negate any difficulties the chapter might have. But that doesn't seem like too big of a problem. Just don't give them super strong weapons, like no tornados on mages, just like elwinds, and make their stats somewhat lower than comparatively leveled actual characters.

Edited January 14, 2012 by bottlegnomes

[CrashGordon94]

Well, what about all of us who want wacky and distinct character units available to use? An in addition, the original caste won't be done away with, so you'd still be able to keep your mellow and predictable whatever it is you're wanting. They don't erase suddenly 'cause new things are added.

We're not talking about character units, we're talking about weapon types.

And no, they wouldn't stay, "weapons are differentiated just by stats" and "weapons are differentiated by more than just stats, they have complicated crap too" are mutually exclusive as one suggests the absence of the other.

Crash, we as humans rarely just want things; we almost always want them for one or more reasons. (Even if those reasons are irrational.) You've brought up two reasons so far: A more complex system would be harder to balance, and it would be more difficult to use.

As for a third reason: I would personally fidn it unenjoyable, possibly to the point of making it actively unpleasant to use.

For balance, I say the same thing as I said to bottlegnomes: Having a group of things balanced is less important than ensuring that they each have their own important roles.

Maybe to you, for me I would say it's the other way around.

Even if some characters and weapon types become worse overall than others, if their own roles increase in importance in comparison to those of the better characters, the "worse" characters get even more reason to be used because they are no longer entirely eclipsed by the others. And indeed, establishing more clear, distinct roles is precisely what these changes do.

No, if they are all fairly similar then that means the "worse" ones are easier to use because they're more similar to the better ones.

Not to mention that simple differences make having "better" and "worse" weapons to huge degrees a leser possibility because of their increased ease in balancing.

Your complaint about difficulty just strikes me as odd. Yes, it requires you to think more, to use more strategy. FE is a strategy game; that's what's supposed to happen. The alternative to difficulty and strategy is using options that work all the time without having to think or do anything - such as those Jagens you hate so much, or at least the most powerful ones. Simple weapons that are effective without difficulty and strategy are the Jagens of the equipment world, so I'm thoroughly confused as to how you can hate one but demand the other.

Because my complaint with super Jeigans is that they're unbalanced to the point of making the game less fun, simpler differences between weapons make that easier to avoid. And there's a difference between having strategy and having everything be stupidly complicated, complex weapons differences would push it towards the latter to the point where it reminds me of one TV show I watched that had a mention of something like that.

Also, to get back to the point that started it, I don't see a problem with every magic type having a Brave/Dime tome as opposed to just ones, the whole phyiscal quartet has a Brave each and it would be unfair to not give them all one if one gets it. If you want to spread out the differences or shit like that then you could give each one some more unique tomes that have different effect ON TOP of the Brave/Dime spells rather than INSTEAD OF the Brave/Dime spell for one or more types.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Kirby

[Anouleth]

Also, to get back to the point that started it, I don't see a problem with every magic type having a Brave/Dime tome as opposed to just ones, the whole phyiscal quartet has a Brave each and it would be unfair to not give them all one if one gets it. If you want to spread out the differences or shit like that then you could give each one some more unique tomes that have different effect ON TOP of the Brave/Dime spells rather than INSTEAD OF the Brave/Dime spell for one or more types.

How do you know that it's unfair? Maybe Fire magic has been really good this year and deserves a nice present. Maybe Thunder magic has been really unpleasant (went around just killing people) and shouldn't deserve a brave weapon. I think it's kind of presumptuous to claim that if any of the magic types deserve a weapon, they all do.

[Othin]

Finding it unenjoyable is not a reason. It's another thing that happens because of other reasons. And those reasons would have to be damn good ones, as you have no experience with the features yourself to find out.

How about you just play Berwick Saga and get back to me after, say, the end of Chapter 4.

[CrashGordon94]

How do you know that it's unfair? Maybe Fire magic has been really good this year and deserves a nice present. Maybe Thunder magic has been really unpleasant (went around just killing people) and shouldn't deserve a brave weapon. I think it's kind of presumptuous to claim that if any of the magic types deserve a weapon, they all do.

Haha, very funny.

Finding it unenjoyable is not a reason. It's another thing that happens because of other reasons. And those reasons would have to be damn good ones, as you have no experience with the features yourself to find out.

How about you just play Berwick Saga and get back to me after, say, the end of Chapter 4.

Except it is a reason unless you're being really strict with what "reason" means, which it sounds like you are.

I can't, my PC likely can't run a PS2 emulator, I can't read Japanese and there's no translation patch.

I have however played some of the real FE games and am content with the simple differences they've used for all 12 games in the series.

[Celice]

And no, they wouldn't stay, "weapons are differentiated just by stats" and "weapons are differentiated by more than just stats, they have complicated crap too" are mutually exclusive as one suggests the absence of the other.

Shouldn't that then make Dime Thunder supersede regular Thunder, where Thunder would no longer exist...? I can pretty much see both of them in the same place ._. Let alone Heroes Weapons and Silver Weapons both existing side by side--they can't possibly exist in the same game together

quick, we need to scrap the Rapier, Bows, Wind against flying units, Thunder against Dragon Riders, Horseslayers, Axe Reavers, Wing Clippers, Weapon Triangles, gamepl--

EDIT: And if you've ever a change of mind or computer hardware, there are translated resources for Berwick Saga available for your use. So even if moonspeak terrifies you away from comprehension, you at least have a nice, complete(ish) travel guide that will show you all the neat tricks, necessities, and worth of how to play and what to expect.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Celice

[CrashGordon94]

Shouldn't that then make Dime Thunder supersede regular Thunder, where Thunder would no longer exist...? I can pretty much see both of them in the same place ._. Let alone Heroes Weapons and Silver Weapons both existing side by side--they can't possibly exist in the same game together

Yeah, except that's not relevant to the discussion or how it works, what we're talking about is weapons at large and their differences between each other.

Basically something like "Swords have no Weight stat, Lances gain power if you move before using them and Axes crush enemy equipment" and something like "Swords have high Hit, Lances have balanced stats and Axes have high Might but they all function roughly the same" are mututally exclusive because the bolded part of the latter cannot coexist with the situation mentioned in the former.

EDIT: And if you've ever a change of mind or computer hardware, there are translated resources for Berwick Saga available for your use. So even if moonspeak terrifies you away from comprehension, you at least have a nice, complete(ish) travel guide that will show you all the neat tricks, necessities, and worth of how to play and what to expect.

I know that and I'm saying it's not good enough for me to play it. It has to be an actual PATCH to put the English text IN THE GAME ITSELF like FE1-6 and eventually 12 or I won't be able to play it as I'm not willing to stare at a sheet of paper in order to have a freaking clue what things are saying.

[Rewjeo]

We're not talking about character units, we're talking about weapon types.

Except having weapons that do very different things will make the units function differently. If my cavalry are now stronger after charging (which I've always thought should be in. It could even help balance them- good offense on player phase, but poor on EP) because lances get a bonus from movement, it's changing them.

And no, they wouldn't stay, "weapons are differentiated just by stats" and "weapons are differentiated by more than just stats, they have complicated crap too" are mutually exclusive as one suggests the absence of the other.

But say you have lances (as in actual lances, not spears) that get boosted from movement but then also regular spears like we're used to. Then we have both general weapon sets that are only different in stats and some that have "complicated crap."

As for a third reason: I would personally fidn it unenjoyable, possibly to the point of making it actively unpleasant to use.

A: Why does your opinion matter more than ours?

B: How do you know you would? Have you ever played Berwick Saga seriously and found it unenjoyable because of the lances?

Maybe to you, for me I would say it's the other way around.

So you think that in Fire Emblem we should focus on balancing weapons by making them all similar? And that changing the weapons would make it unbalanced and that's just unacceptable? Fire Emblem is horribly unbalanced. I don't think changing the weapons will do all that much unless IS goes crazy with one weapon type and makes it super OP.

No, if they are all fairly similar then that means the "worse" ones are easier to use because they're more similar to the better ones.

Not to mention that simple differences make having "better" and "worse" weapons to huge degrees a leser possibility because of their increased ease in balancing.

Not true. If lances are simply worse than swords, then there's no reason to use them. Swords obsolete them. If lances are overall worse than swords, but still have bonuses from moving, then they have a use still.

Because my complaint with super Jeigans is that they're unbalanced to the point of making the game less fun, simpler differences between weapons make that easier to avoid. And there's a difference between having strategy and having everything be stupidly complicated, complex weapons differences would push it towards the latter to the point where it reminds me of one TV show I watched that had a mention of something like that.

I don't see how simpler weapons prevents things from being so unbalanced they aren't fun. It wouldn't be stupidly complicated, either. Have an enemy you need taken out ASAP? Send a mounted guy with a lance so you can get there and ORKO him. Have an enemy with a ton of DEF and axes cut through DEF better than other weapons in this game? Send an axe user in. Units just have more specific roles.

Also, to get back to the point that started it, I don't see a problem with every magic type having a Brave/Dime tome as opposed to just ones, the whole phyiscal quartet has a Brave each and it would be unfair to not give them all one if one gets it. If you want to spread out the differences or shit like that then you could give each one some more unique tomes that have different effect ON TOP of the Brave/Dime spells rather than INSTEAD OF the Brave/Dime spell for one or more types.

But generally the brave weapons are very rare. I wouldn't object to have one or two "dime" tomes for each magic type, but I think it would be more interesting if one had a B level Dime tome that was buyable and another had, say, a buyable siege tome.

[General Banzai]

I know that and I'm saying it's not good enough for me to play it. It has to be an actual PATCH to put the English text IN THE GAME ITSELF like FE1-6 and eventually 12 or I won't be able to play it as I'm not willing to stare at a sheet of paper in order to have a freaking clue what things are saying.

Well good thing Othin and I are working on a complete, comprehensive translation for Berwick, so your hopes and desires may be answered soon enough

[CrashGordon94]

Except having weapons that do very different things will make the units function differently. If my cavalry are now stronger after charging (which I've always thought should be in. It could even help balance them- good offense on player phase, but poor on EP) because lances get a bonus from movement, it's changing them.

It's still not what we're discussing, it effects the characters but we're discussing the weapons themselves, not what they do to people.

But say you have lances (as in actual lances, not spears) that get boosted from movement but then also regular spears like we're used to. Then we have both general weapon sets that are only different in stats and some that have "complicated crap."

Except that that's not true, that would render "differentiated by other stuff" true and "not differentiated by other stuff" false.

A: Why does your opinion matter more than ours?

B: How do you know you would? Have you ever played Berwick Saga seriously and found it unenjoyable because of the lances?

A: How it reasoning that you want something in or not in because you would(n't) enjoy it saying that your opinion is more important? Oh wait, it isn't. It's just your personal opinion of what you want or don't want.

B: No I haven't, I know it because it sounds fucking terrible.

So you think that in Fire Emblem we should focus on balancing weapons by making them all similar? And that changing the weapons would make it unbalanced and that's just unacceptable? Fire Emblem is horribly unbalanced. I don't think changing the weapons will do all that much unless IS goes crazy with one weapon type and makes it super OP.

Which is what they'd likely do since this complicated crap is harder to balance and definitely not the solution to poor weapon balance.

Not true. If lances are simply worse than swords, then there's no reason to use them. Swords obsolete them. If lances are overall worse than swords, but still have bonuses from moving, then they have a use still.

Even if they're "worse" and "obsolete" then they can stil be used because they're be very similar to the "better" weapons and you'd be losing less from doing it.

I don't see how simpler weapons prevents things from being so unbalanced they aren't fun.

Because they're easier to balnce and any unbalanced parts mean less, it's as simple as that.

It wouldn't be stupidly complicated, either. Have an enemy you need taken out ASAP? Send a mounted guy with a lance so you can get there and ORKO him. Have an enemy with a ton of DEF and axes cut through DEF better than other weapons in this game? Send an axe user in. Units just have more specific roles.

And that would get really overcomplicated over time. Obviously that there is fairly simple but you wouldn't encounter stuff that basic too often and as you get into bigger scenarios that would actually occur in a real game it would get confusing, futher reminding me of that TV show example (which I'm now considering quoting) and that would be unpleasant to me as some of the basic stuff already confuses me from time to time.

But generally the brave weapons are very rare. I wouldn't object to have one or two "dime" tomes for each magic type, but I think it would be more interesting if one had a B level Dime tome that was buyable and another had, say, a buyable siege tome.

That's more to do with how weapons are stocked than their existence.

And as a result it actually sounds like it could be a potentially reasonable solution to me, I was about to suggest "they all exist but some are easier to find than others" as I found that to be a decent solution before.

[Othin]

I know that and I'm saying it's not good enough for me to play it. It has to be an actual PATCH to put the English text IN THE GAME ITSELF like FE1-6 and eventually 12 or I won't be able to play it as I'm not willing to stare at a sheet of paper in order to have a freaking clue what things are saying.

"BAAAAAWWW it's not enough that Mr. Nice Internet Guy spent like a hundred hours translating stuff from a bunch of sites so I'd have this great guide to use to understand like every detail of the game it has to be RIGHT IN THE GAME ITSELF ANYTHING ELSE WOULD BE INCONVENIENT sure he spent years playing Japanese games like that and says it's not a problem and so do plenty of other people IT'S NOT GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME BAAAAAWWW"

[CrashGordon94]

Because it's not enough for me to not want to play something because I'd find it hard to do?

[Othin]

Because it's not enough for me to not want to play something because I'd find it hard to do?

No, it's just because you think and insist you would find it hard to do, in spite of all evidence and testimony to the contrary.

[CrashGordon94]

The people who do that =/= me. They're willing to put in the effort to look at a sheet of paper (or whatever) while they play for more than a short period of playtime, I'm not.

The point is, it might be easy for you but it wouldn't be for me. Besides I'm not sure I'd want to give BS a chance even if I was willing to do this because it sounds painfully complicated.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Kirby

[Celice]

"BAAAAAWWW it's not enough that Mr. Nice Internet Guy spent like a hundred hours translating stuff from a bunch of sites so I'd have this great guide to use to understand like every detail of the game it has to be RIGHT IN THE GAME ITSELF ANYTHING ELSE WOULD BE INCONVENIENT sure he spent years playing Japanese games like that and says it's not a problem and so do plenty of other people IT'S NOT GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME BAAAAAWWW"

I don't think anyone cares about the work you did anyways :p

though one day I will thank you when I actually try the game out, I haven't even given TearRing Saga a try for more than the first few chapters

[Othin]

The people who do that =/= me. They're willing to put in the effort to look at a sheet of paper while they play for more than a short period of playtime, I'm not.

No, we don't. We learn things from a website when we're starting to play and when new mechanics are introduced, and then we spend most of our time knowing what we're doing and never needing to check at all.

Let's say you're playing FE7 and you get a Brave Lance. You aren't going to need to check its description to know what it does; you're familiar with Brave Weapons, you know it's a Brave weapon from its icon, you know what to do with it. Let's say you're playing FE10 and you get Naesala. You look at his skills and see the icon for Vantage, you immediately know what it does; you don't even need to read the name because you already know what it does. Let's say you're playing FE9, you get Tormod, and you don't bother to check his skills, but you try to move him and you notice he has a bigger movement range. You don't need to check any descriptions to understand that he has a skill that gives him +2 Move; you just figure it out on your own by paying attention.

I don't think anyone cares about the work you did anyways :p

Most of it was too much fun to call it work anyway, so I'm not complaining. But I'm crazy like that.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Othin

[CrashGordon94]

No, we don't. We learn things from a website when we're starting to play and when new mechanics are introduced, and then we spend most of our time knowing what we're doing and never needing to check at all.

I couldn't, I wouldn't be able to work the menus. Even if I could, I wouldn't be able to remember how to play.

Let's say you're playing FE7 and you get a Brave Lance. You aren't going to need to check its description to know what it does; you're familiar with Brave Weapons, you know it's a Brave weapon from its icon, you know what to do with it. Let's say you're playing FE10 and you get Naesala. You look at his skills and see the icon for Vantage, you immediately know what it does; you don't even need to read the name because you already know what it does.

Actually, I need at least the names to tell what they are, otherwise all I'd be able to tell from the icon would be "It's a Lance of some kind" and "He has a Skill of some type" respectively.

[Othin]

I couldn't, I wouldn't be able to work the menus. Even if I could, I wouldn't be able to remember how to play.

Actually, I need at least the names to tell what they are, otherwise all I'd be able to tell from the icon would be "It's a Lance of some kind" and "He has a Skill of some type" respectively.

No one I know of has faced serious issues with either of those things throughout extended time spent playing a game in a foreign language. Menus are easier to learn than you'd think, even complex ones. It's easy to pick up things like the first option being Attack, the bottom one being Wait, the one in the middle with an arrow next to it being Item, and others being skills that, for a given character, can usually be identified based on length or distinct kanji that show up within them.

I find it impossible to believe your assertion based on no evidence whatsoever that you must be so much more inept than everyone else who has ever tried it as to be unable to do this.

[General Banzai]

Look, you guys just need to wait a bit and then we WILL have a patch for the game.

[CrashGordon94]

No one I know of has faced serious issues with either of those things throughout extended time spent playing a game in a foreign language. Menus are easier to learn than you'd think, even complex ones. It's easy to pick up things like the first option being Attack, the bottom one being Wait, the one in the middle with an arrow next to it being Item, and others being skills that, for a given character, can usually be identified based on length or distinct kanji that show up within them.

That might be enough for you, but it's not for me. I have to know what the buttons say in order to use them.

Look, you guys just need to wait a bit and then we WILL have a patch for the game.

THIS is actually convincing.

[Celice]

Look, you guys just need to wait a bit and then we WILL have a patch for the game.

Be sure to make it available on romhacking dot net as well. It's the Whirlpool 2.0 (the Whirlpool as THE translation hub back in the day for fan translations).

[Othin]

That might be enough for you, but it's not for me. I have to know what the buttons say in order to use them.

Without having tried it, how do you know?

Because where's the fun in learning from mistakes?

[arvilino]

That might be enough for you, but it's not for me. I have to know what the buttons say in order to use them.

So if you saw a door without a Push/Pull sign you'd never figure out how to use it?

[Celice]

If he understood English, probably. If it was in Arabic, I don't think he'd understand what the sign was saying. And then it's up to him to experiment with what the door does, or if it's even a door.

He may have just passed signs which warned the doors are broken, and he's now locked in until his death. This is the Quit without Saving option in moonspeak XD

Edited January 14, 2012 by Celice