How fast can Pale Flower of Darkness be beaten?

[FalconVegeta1986]

On either mode and either map, what is the lowest amount of turns that PFoD can be beaten in? I'm thinking that i'm not the only person who sees Harken as superior to Karel. So i'm wondering, if PFoD can be completed before Harken shows up, if it's worth the extra turns on your rank to wait around for him and possibly have to face more reinforcements.

Also, is it generally accepted that Harken is superior to Karel? On normal mode, I can see that Karel has a few stats that are higher than Harken, but on hard mode, Harkens stats just blow Karels away. Even the small difference on normal mode seems worthless compared to how solid Harken is, and with a second weapon type to boot. Harken with an iron axe, the weakest axe, has the same ATK as Karel with a silver sword, the strongest sword next to the Regal Blade. Not to mention Harken has the better weapon IMO.

So how fast can be PFoD be beat, and what are your opinions on Harken vs Karel?

[Epic Fail]

I dunno about minimum turns, but Harken is better than Karel, if only for the fact that he has the only Brave Sword in the game (at least in Eliwood's Tale and HNM). Karel is only useful if you didn't bother with either Guy or Raven (same goes for Harken, but to a lesser extent) or you really like SMs. He's not that bad, (he does cap skill) but his HP is an absolute joke (Harken is an Angelic Robe away from being acceptable, Karel needs at least two and I doubt anyone will have a surplus of them).

Edited September 25, 2011 by Epic Fail

[General Horace]

Harken is far superior to Karel on HM, having the best 1-2 range in the game upon joining, and boasting 23 Str, 18 Spd with good durability.

PFoD can be beaten in around 7-8 turns on HHM.

Edited September 25, 2011 by General_Horace

[FalconVegeta1986]

PFoD can be beaten in around 7-8 turns on HHM.

So, then it'd probably be around the same number for any other mode then. Is counting both of the PFoD maps?

I've always wondered if the HM bonuses are supposed to happen, or if it's some glitch that IS overlooked when setting up bonuses for enemies.

[General Horace]

Jerme's map takes longer, probably, I'm not 100% sure. No idea on the HM bonuses though. Pretty sure they're increased by the same amount as any other enemy. I'm probably wrong though.

Edited September 25, 2011 by General_Horace

[chococoke]

I feel like with the right personnel and strategy, Jerme's map can be finished as fast as Kenneth's. Kenneth's is literally only superior because it's 100% linear, while Jerme's map requires much more thinking about unit placement and item distribution.

[Paper Jam]

I feel like with the right personnel and strategy, Jerme's map can be finished as fast as Kenneth's. Kenneth's is literally only superior because it's 100% linear, while Jerme's map requires much more thinking about unit placement and item distribution.

Besides, you're more likely to recruit Harken on Jerme's map since it's easier to refrain from opening the doors to four buildings within 8 turns than to refrain from defeating two promoted enemies within 8 turns.

And Jerme's map allows you to take 7 or 8 more turns for A Tactics than Kenneth's map does, so, for example, completing Jerme's map on turn 15 on HHM is equivalent to completing Kenneth's map on turn 8 on HHM, when it comes to your Tactics score (though, of course, you can recruit Harken or Karel in the former case but not the latter).

Edited September 25, 2011 by Paper Jam

[Lord Raven]

Jerme's map takes longer, probably, I'm not 100% sure. No idea on the HM bonuses though. Pretty sure they're increased by the same amount as any other enemy. I'm probably wrong though.

Every PC in FE7 is 5 class autolevels. Edited September 25, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[dondon151]

I feel like with the right personnel and strategy, Jerme's map can be finished as fast as Kenneth's. Kenneth's is literally only superior because it's 100% linear, while Jerme's map requires much more thinking about unit placement and item distribution.

Not likely. Kenneth's map is 30 tiles from the closest starting PC to the throne while Jerme's map is anywhere from 33 to 37 tiles from the closest starting PC to the farthest starting enemy. Kenneth's map does have 2 more turns of snow in the first 6 turns, but Jerme's map has many more tough enemy types (NTs, a hero, and a WL) and Jerme is no defensive slouch when compared to Kenneth. It's not out of the question to get Jerme's map somewhat close to Kenneth's (around 8 turns), though.

Besides, you're more likely to recruit Harken on Jerme's map since it's easier to refrain from opening the doors to four buildings within 8 turns than to refrain from defeating two promoted enemies within 8 turns.

The only promoted enemies that satisfy the requirement are the (in HHM) the general, the northwest sniper, and the bishop. The general is aggressive, but you'd have to try to kill the northwest sniper and the bishop, so it's much easier to get Harken instead of Karel in Kenneth's chapter 27.

[Paper Jam]

The only promoted enemies that satisfy the requirement are the (in HHM) the general, the northwest sniper, and the bishop. The general is aggressive, but you'd have to try to kill the northwest sniper and the bishop, so it's much easier to get Harken instead of Karel in Kenneth's chapter 27.

Maybe the requirements are different in HHM, but in ENM and HNM, you only have to defeat two of those three enemies to get Karel, and at most one of them to get Harken.

The bishop has a long-range tome and is much easier to kill than to spare, and as you say, the general is aggressive. Killing them both (and getting Karel) is much easier than keeping either of them alive (and getting Harken).

By comparison, it is much easier to refrain from opening the doors to three buildings in Jerme's chapter. And you have seven more turns to complete Jerme's chapter anyway.

Edited September 29, 2011 by Paper Jam

[dondon151]

Maybe the requirements are different in HHM, but in ENM and HNM, you only have to defeat two of those three enemies to get Karel, and at most one of them to get Harken.

Perhaps you didn't quite understand the implication of my language. I meant that the player would have to make a conscious effort at killing 2 of the 3 relevant promoted enemies, so in the absence of such an effort, Harken is very easy to trigger.

The bishop has a long-range tome and is much easier to kill than to spare,

What? No he's not. Not unless you somehow have a LRT of your own. The guy hides safely behind a wall and has (relatively) a bunch of room to move around, so the only conceivable way to kill him would be with a Longbow, but you might as well whether the storm because he's not that strong and he doesn't combine his attacks. By the time you might actually kill him, he will have already used maybe at least 3 of 5 uses on his Purge.

Edited September 29, 2011 by dondon151

[Paper Jam]

What? No he's not. Not unless you somehow have a LRT of your own. The guy hides safely behind a wall and has (relatively) a bunch of room to move around, so the only conceivable way to kill him would be with a Longbow, but you might as well whether the storm because he's not that strong and he doesn't combine his attacks. By the time you might actually kill him, he will have already used maybe at least 3 of 5 uses on his Purge.

He's actually quite easy to lure up to the wall with one of your weakest units, and when he's up to the wall, he can be killed with an Iron Bow, or a Fire tome, or any other 2-range weapon.

I never had any difficulty killing the bishop, and I had much more difficulty NOT killing the bishop. But then, that was on Normal mode, and I have no idea where the bishop is initially located on Hard mode. (If it's not the same place as on Normal, then you are probably right, and I'm wrong.)

Edited September 29, 2011 by Paper Jam

[dondon151]

He's actually quite easy to lure up to the wall with one of your weakest units, and when he's up to the wall, he can be killed with an Iron Bow, or a Fire tome, or any other 2-range weapon.

This is implying that either you're wasting a deployment slot deploying a unit weaker than Ninian or you're not letting Ninian move forward, which is a suboptimal choice in both circumstances. The topic's subject involves clearing chapter 27 as quickly as possible, which naturally conflicts with killing the bishop.

[FionordeQuester]

But is the location of the Bishop different in Hard Mode than it is in Normal Mode?

[Anouleth]

But is the location of the Bishop different in Hard Mode than it is in Normal Mode?

No.

[General Horace]

The Bishop tends to prefer using Purge, but is sometimes dumb enough to go into range of a unit that can kill it with a javelin. Not usually though, in my experience.

[OriginalRaisins]

The thing is, though: If you complete the chapter quickly, you will get Karel (unless you drill one path AND have Kenneth's version of the map). So if you want Harken, you're not only going to have to wait for him, but you're going to leave a large amount of the chapter incomplete once you get around to recruiting him.

[dondon151]

The thing is, though: If you complete the chapter quickly, you will get Karel (unless you drill one path AND have Kenneth's version of the map). So if you want Harken, you're not only going to have to wait for him, but you're going to leave a large amount of the chapter incomplete once you get around to recruiting him.

And there is nothing wrong with leaving enemies unrouted if you weren't intending on fighting them in the first place.

[Paper Jam]

And there is nothing wrong with leaving enemies unrouted if you weren't intending on fighting them in the first place.

True, but it's not good for your experience if you don't.

Whether that matters or not is up to the player, but less experience generally means that later chapters take longer to complete, because higher-level characters can generally defeat enemies faster than lower-level characters.

[dondon151]

Uh, there are only 3 promoted enemies that count towards the Harken requirement. Only 2 of them do not have to be killed. I don't think the loss of 2 promoted units is going to severely hamper your EXP gain. If that is your sole concern, you can just kill them on the turn after you recruit Harken.

[Anouleth]

True, but it's not good for your experience if you don't.

Whether that matters or not is up to the player, but less experience generally means that later chapters take longer to complete, because higher-level characters can generally defeat enemies faster than lower-level characters.

Typically, the effect of a single level of experience on turncount is utterly negligible.

Edited October 8, 2011 by Anouleth

[Paper Jam]

Uh, there are only 3 promoted enemies that count towards the Harken requirement. Only 2 of them do not have to be killed. I don't think the loss of 2 promoted units is going to severely hamper your EXP gain. If that is your sole concern, you can just kill them on the turn after you recruit Harken.

My mistake; I thought you were suggesting making a beeline for Kenneth and ignoring the enemies not directly between you and him, i.e. not only the Bishop, but everybody else in the room.

Which I know you can do on Normal mode before Karel or Harken even appear; is it possible on Hard mode too?

Typically, the effect of a single level of experience on turncount is utterly negligible.

How about seven levels? That's how many more you're expected to get in Jerme's map than in Kenneth's, on Hard mode.

[Anouleth]

How about seven levels? That's how many more you're expected to get in Jerme's map than in Kenneth's, on Hard mode.

I'm not saying anything about Jerme's map. dondon said that you can skip the promoted enemies in Kenneth's map to ensure Harken spawns rather than Karel, and you said that it might have a negative effect on turncount... which it probably won't, since you're only missing out on about a level of exp.

[Loki Laufeyson]

I actually got Harken to appear on Kenneth's map but not Karel as well. It meant that i only killed that Bishop and that Hero. I left the General and that sniper alone. (and didnt kill that Swordmaster until after Harken appeared.) Didnt take too long actually. Cant remember the exact turns though.