ITT I rank the characters

[Snowy_One]

Are people taking this topic seriously? Wow.

[Life]

Are people taking this topic seriously? Wow.

It's Smash. Smash at least has some notion of logic, unlike others I can name...

[Progenitus]

Fine, make Ulki drop .5 points below Janaff please.

fine

[Anouleth]

There's still no mention of Ulki's late transformation as opposed to Janaff's early transformation. I don't care so much what rating you give them, as I do about the reasons you put in the explanation which is the "meat" of a rating.

[Progenitus]

i was editing the ratings as you posted

[Lord Raven]

If you say that there's enough BEXP so that the most underleveled unit in the entire game (save for liek Rolf and Mist who are tied in that department) has absolutely no problems catching up to the team in levels while not harming the rest of the team in any way, then stats should just flat out not matter anymore and everything should be based on availability and mobility (and 1-2 range). I advise that you also apply (or at least push for) that style for the actual tier list on this board as well, or there will be contradictions in your stance.

That's essentially what it's being based on now. Highest mobility and availability near the top, worst mobility/availability near the bottom and some other odd units like Rolf and whatever who are horrible throughout are placed. Tormod at least makes very good use of his BEXP when he obtains it- it's the difference between him and Rolf and for that matter Ilyana and Soren and anyone that is really below him. The only non-mounted unit above Tormod (Aside from Ike/Boyd) is Nephenee, for reference.

At this point, again, we are at an impasse due to our differences in debating styles. It's clear you think there's enough resources to go around due to your playstyle. And I think that doing that kind of playstyle is a boring way to debate (since, like I said, I find the actual debating to be more interesting rather than coming up with the correct conclusion, and removing an entire aspect of the debate from the picture - stats - doesn't help that).

Our difference in debating styles? I am taking your side into account, and frankly the stats portion is taken care of by the fact that stats aren't as important when the enemies are already quite weak- Soren's obvious leads over Tormod don't hold as much weight as Tormod's 8 movement.

And I "think" there's enough resources? I *know* there's enough resources.

Of course at this point you know what I'm going to tell you. It's now up to you if you want to flame or taunt me, or call me stubborn. Or we can agree to disagree (yes, this is an actual option), and you can do something more productive and argue with people who agree with your standards and styles of debating and playing and thus you can argue actual units and not semantics.

Is this what every single one of your arguments derails to? I don't even care about semantics, pulling this card on me with the attitude you have is why people go out of their way to flame you. Edited November 14, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[aku chi]

The same arguments that can lead one to conclude that Janaff > Ulki might also lead one to believe that Lethe >= Muarim. Here's a link to my Lethe > Muarim argument in the FE9 tier list topic.

Edit: There was also some subsequent discussion on Lethe/Muarim vs. Nephenee. For the record, I haven't been strongly convinced either way.

Edited November 14, 2011 by aku chi

[Progenitus]

Our difference in debating styles? I am taking your side into account, and frankly the stats portion is taken care of by the fact that stats aren't as important when the enemies are already quite weak- Soren's obvious leads over Tormod don't hold as much weight as Tormod's 8 movement.

You assume that the player is low-manning, I don't. Will your assumption lead to a lower turn count than my assumption at the end of the day? probably. Do I care? No.

You assume that only a few units should be capable of soloing the map adn the rest of the team just gets scraps. I don't. Will your assumption lead to a lower turn count than my assumption at the end of the day? probably. Do I care? No.

You assume that the player stuffs the team full of god tiers (as evident by your playlog), I don't (I merely assume that good units are fielded more often than bad ones). Will your assumption lead to a lower turn count than my assumption at the end of the day? probably. Do I care? No.

And I "think" there's enough resources? I *know* there's enough resources.

Under your playstyle.

My playstyle involves a little more "having everyone on the team capable of one rounding instead of only a select few" and "the player sometimes wants to incorporate mid and low tiers into the team instead of fielding almost exclusively high tiers", among other factors. In this kind of playthrough you will be hardpressed to get, say, Tormod AND Soren AND Mia AND Devdan AND everyone else on the team capable of one rounding all the enemies they want and never dying.

Again, is this style of playing or debating going to return a lower turn count than what you assume? Probably not. And I don't care. I prefer that my style caters to the more casual players that don't want to just speed blitz the game but rather make the playthrough easy for him (hence why you will always see me arguing against using turn counts as the measuring stick for tiering and ranking, but that's not something I want to argue about right now). That the casual players want to experiment with other characters in the game instead of the hardcore players like you and the serenesforest members bruteforce through the game with god tiers. And so on. Is this method of debating less clear-cut than what the serenesforest people, including you, use for tiering and ranking? Probably. But it's something I find to be more interesting to talk about.

Is this what every single one of your arguments derails to? I don't even care about semantics, pulling this card on me with the attitude you have is why people go out of their way to flame you.

It has derailed to this BECAUSE this is an argument that has been brought up multiple times, sometimes not even by me (I have posted examples earlier in this topic), and has NOT ONCE gone anywhere. Why should I bother to waste my time on an issue that I know will not produce any results and that debating about it is just frustrating?

Again, I have said that I have already agreed to disagree. Hell, if it will make you feel better, I will swallow my pride and flat out admit that your style and the serenesforest stance is more efficient than mine when it comes to achieving a low turn count. But I don't care. I want to argue using a style that I feel produces more interesting debates, and something I find to be more interesting to do when I actually play through the game.

Edited November 14, 2011 by smash fanatic

[eclipse]

My playstyle involves a little more "having everyone on the team capable of one rounding instead of only a select few" and "the player sometimes wants to incorporate mid and low tiers into the team instead of fielding almost exclusively high tiers", among other factors. In this kind of playthrough you will be hardpressed to get, say, Tormod AND Soren AND Mia AND Devdan AND everyone else on the team capable of one rounding all the enemies they want and never dying.

You could've said this WAY earlier. Now that I have an idea of what you're looking for, I'm frankly not interested. I don't see the point in debating "well, we're gonna assume this mid/low-tier unit's using resources, so I can't give those resources to another mid/low tier unit".

[-Cynthia-]

If resources are in rather high demand I'm not seeing how Nephenee can be 1.5 points over Lethe. Lethe has availability, Mov, offense (Neph's starting lance rank isn't good), and defense over Neph at base. Nephenee has 1-2 range, better offense eventually and grows into having sufficient durability. The thing is that Lethe beats her during all the time Neph is unpromoted and even afterwards it can be competitive due to the Mov difference. Nephenee is a good combat unit, but she has "high" start up costs under your system.

[Lord Raven]

You assume that the player is low-manning, I don't. Will your assumption lead to a lower turn count than my assumption at the end of the day? probably. Do I care? No.

You assume that only a few units should be capable of soloing the map adn the rest of the team just gets scraps. I don't. Will your assumption lead to a lower turn count than my assumption at the end of the day? probably. Do I care? No.

You assume that the player stuffs the team full of god tiers (as evident by your playlog), I don't (I merely assume that good units are fielded more often than bad ones). Will your assumption lead to a lower turn count than my assumption at the end of the day? probably. Do I care? No.

Classic, I've heard of this exact type of debating from you. Won't fall into that trap!

I do *not* assume the player is low-manning. In fact, my playlog showed a large team that managed to get a bunch of units promoted around Chapter 18 or 19. A very large team, so that's not exactly "low-manning" but I do assume we attempt to get a generally lower turncount (but at least within max BEXP-limits). And finally, I don't think you listened to this, but I blew a huge load of BEXP into a select few units while raising the others decently too, so imagining dispersing that BEXP over many units- we have even more than you are assuming, meaning that Tormod's BEXP strain is even more negligible and the utility he brings as a result is therefore more than enough- way more, in fact- to offset the BEXP he needs. If marcia is only taking ~5-10%, then a 10-man team is taking another 10% per unit and 10-man team is actually quite a bit for a regular playthrough.

Nowhere did I say that I was assuming a player was stuffing their team filled with God tiers. My playlog showed that Tormod could compete with said God tiers and he gets quite a lot of preference to move along with those God tiers due to his movement- that is worth quite a bit more than you give it credit for. And I stated that there are alternative strategies and his 8 move helps make a lot of siege tome strategies flexible and gives a more consistent source of healing for your frontliners who are most likely way ahead of your other units.

Protip: do not assume my stance or assumptions, I know full well you are arguing a much more general sort of playthrough, and I am making points accordingly. I only reference my playlog because I was saying you can blow a shitton of EXP and still be able to build up a unit like Rolf or Tormod, and I was not making many points from anything specific regarding a unit other than Tormod. I was making arguments in favor of Tormod, and while I did bring up other units, I used them as potential people he would be able to assist, and once again I am willing to bring up specific ways that Tormod helps immensely in a regular playthrough. Ways that every other Mage is unable to do; I was merely set out to argue against the idea of "there isn't enough BEXP."

My playstyle involves a little more "having everyone on the team capable of one rounding instead of only a select few" and "the player sometimes wants to incorporate mid and low tiers into the team instead of fielding almost exclusively high tiers", among other factors. In this kind of playthrough you will be hardpressed to get, say, Tormod AND Soren AND Mia AND Devdan AND everyone else on the team capable of one rounding all the enemies they want and never dying.

Only nitpicking here because frankly I will end up posting the exact same thing (different wording) to your "difference of playthrough" points, since it will always amount to "well I wasn't arguing just on efficiency." Anyways, Devdan helps Tormod's case because Devdan is one of his support partners, and in fact I was almost going to suggest using him as such simply because he can do quite a few things with that support.

It has derailed to this BECAUSE this is an argument that has been brought up multiple times, sometimes not even by me (I have posted examples earlier in this topic), and has NOT ONCE gone anywhere. Why should I bother to waste my time on an issue that I know will not produce any results and that debating about it is just frustrating?

Again, I have said that I have already agreed to disagree. Hell, if it will make you feel better, I will swallow my pride and flat out admit that your style and the serenesforest stance is more efficient than mine when it comes to achieving a low turn count. But I don't care. I want to argue using a style that I feel produces more interesting debates, and something I find to be more interesting to do when I actually play through the game.

You said the exact same thing twice. Not exact, but it's so close that it may as well be exact; to add to that you ignored a point I brought up many times. And finally, if you want someone to understand your points, you don't post almost the same thing twice, since I'm getting a sense of deja vu every single time I read one of your points.

Efficiency produces interesting debates too, it's just that you haven't gotten situated into that sort of debate style and sorta gave up as a result. I know what you mean, and I am going through almost the same exact thing with Pokemon- I just don't like post-Gen 3.

[Progenitus]

You could've said this WAY earlier. Now that I have an idea of what you're looking for, I'm frankly not interested. I don't see the point in debating "well, we're gonna assume this mid/low-tier unit's using resources, so I can't give those resources to another mid/low tier unit".

I didn't say it earlier? Could've sworn I did.

In any case, I hope you don't misunderstand. I'm assuming the player wants to try and make his team structure flexible. He doesn't want to only incorporate high tiers, and at the same time he doesn't want to field an assload of crappy units. Rather, the units on the team are arbitrary, with good units simply being fielded more often than bad units. Also, I don't assume that resources can never be handed out.

If resources are in rather high demand I'm not seeing how Nephenee can be 1.5 points over Lethe. Lethe has availability, Mov, offense (Neph's starting lance rank isn't good), and defense over Neph at base. Nephenee has 1-2 range, better offense eventually and grows into having sufficient durability. The thing is that Lethe beats her during all the time Neph is unpromoted and even afterwards it can be competitive due to the Mov difference. Nephenee is a good combat unit, but she has "high" start up costs under your system.

Before I argue, what scores do you propose for them?

[-Cynthia-]

Before I argue, what scores do you propose for them?

I'd probably raise Lethe by a point, I think Lethe pretty clearly wins vs. someone like Geoffrey who really only has 3 chapters of use to begin with and Lethe has ~10 chapters of being one of your best units "for free". Basically, she's a 9 Mov unit with good availability and good combat for a large part of the game.

And I'd drop Nephenee a half point or so. Nephenee is pretty clearly worse than Makalov/Astrid in my eyes, they're all units that require a decent chunk of BEXP to be useful but are pretty good once they get it. Horse should outweigh the few chapters of availability she has over them I think.

[Colonel M]

Are people taking this topic seriously? Wow.

Sadly we take you seriously, but you don't see us bitching about it at the moment, do you?

smash has a right to attempt to find a different way to tier characters. Now, whether it's effective or not is up to the readers and posters, but we have to listen to your "MIA gets all the Spirit Dusts" argument constantly and that "Movement sucks" too.

Edited November 15, 2011 by Colonel M

[Progenitus]

I'd probably raise Lethe by a point, I think Lethe pretty clearly wins vs. someone like Geoffrey who really only has 3 chapters of use to begin with and Lethe has ~10 chapters of being one of your best units "for free". Basically, she's a 9 Mov unit with good availability and good combat for a large part of the game.

And I'd drop Nephenee a half point or so. Nephenee is pretty clearly worse than Makalov/Astrid in my eyes, they're all units that require a decent chunk of BEXP to be useful but are pretty good once they get it. Horse should outweigh the few chapters of availability she has over them I think.

Sure, although I'm not convinced that Neph and Lethe should have the same score (which they would under your suggestions). If you want to defend your position then go for it, but I would opt for Neph at 7.5 and Lethe at 7 for now.

[NinjaMonkey]

If this is your ranking thread, why are you asking other people for their opinions/scores?

[Progenitus]

Because I'm not perfect and there are some inconsistencies within my own logic that I want to fix.

[Lord Raven]

You're not going to acknowledge my Tormod arguments are you? Where you instead assume what kind of playthrough I am arguing instead of taking a look at my argument. PS Tormod doesn't deserve to be grouped with Soren, probably a solid 1.0 higher simply because of his movement and supports.

[Interceptor]

It's a real shame that Int and Narga are essentially out of the debating scene, now.

Not that much of a shame. Back when it was the vocal minority against the stubborn status quo, every inch of ground made to get Mia so much as a simple forge was drenched in the blood of unbelievers. But these days, efficient play is mainstream in tiering and ranking, and people like smash who slowly turtle their way across the map with a hundred units, are antiques from a bygone era.

The fact of the matter is, my mannerisms are now a part of debating nomenclature (I could retire if I got royalties for "sandbagging"), and I've left behind a half dozen acolytes who buy into the idea of a tier player that's not functionally retarded. Take Colonel_M: three years ago, all over the map. Today, I'd pick him as my second in a duel in a heartbeat, this soldier would be hard-pressed to make a nontrivial point that the Tyrant couldn't come up with himself.

The revolution is self-sustaining, I am not needed. Which is handy, since I also don't have much time to argue on the internets anymore.

You're not going to acknowledge my Tormod arguments are you? Where you instead assume what kind of playthrough I am arguing instead of taking a look at my argument. PS Tormod doesn't deserve to be grouped with Soren, probably a solid 1.0 higher simply because of his movement and supports.

I don't think that he is intentionally ignoring your argument; smash just really does not comprehend how much BEXP there is in this game, so he thinks that you are speaking nonsense. I don't know whether he just sits on it like a newbie that hoards all of the stat boosters until Endgame, misses a bunch of it because he can't meet any of the extremely lenient BEXP requirements, sprays half of it on Rolf as soon as the kid spawns, or whatever, but there you go.

I have personally warmed to Tormod over the years, after initially not being impressed with him, and for a long time considering Soren to be more useful.

[Colonel M]

Damn... I'm... Speechless. Thanks Interceptor. It means a lot to me.

[Snowy_One]

Not that much of a shame. Back when it was the vocal minority against the stubborn status quo, every inch of ground made to get Mia so much as a simple forge was drenched in the blood of unbelievers. But these days, efficient play is mainstream in tiering and ranking, and people like smash who slowly turtle their way across the map with a hundred units, are antiques from a bygone era.

I remember those days well. Smash would sandbag Mia so hard that even giving her exp would be considered 'favoritism'. Many of my arguments for Mia (wrath/vantage, SS Mia, and such) came out of direct opposition to him. I was the minority then... and I am once again the minority being laughed at and ridiculed. I guess I just enjoy being in the minority the most or maybe I just think people should play by my rules and hate it when people try to ridicule me out. Either rolls right off or just makes me want to scrap with them more.

[Life]

I remember those days well. Smash would sandbag Mia so hard that even giving her exp would be considered 'favoritism'. Many of my arguments for Mia (wrath/vantage, SS Mia, and such) came out of direct opposition to him. I was the minority then... and I am once again the minority being laughed at and ridiculed. I guess I just enjoy being in the minority the most or maybe I just think people should play by my rules and hate it when people try to ridicule me out. Either rolls right off or just makes me want to scrap with them more.

To be fair, Sonic Sword and Wrath could probably be better on other people. Stefan has base 8 Mag and doesn't have to rely on a 30% growth rate to get there (Mia won't usually get the Mage Band since it'll probably go to a Sage for the ability to ORKO stuff or Rhys/Mist for greater Physic range). So your stuff is still a stretch.

[Dark Sage]

The proposed tier positioning you have in mind Snowy is also a bit of a lift. Last tier list I saw you post had her in like, near the top of Upper Mid. That is truly ridiculous when you take into account that you also put her right above Muarim, you put her a tier over Stefan, and you put Zihark in the bottom of Upper Mid, all of which is lol. Interceptor was content to place her around Zihark's level, possibly below, because he recognized the two were essentially interchangeable.

The primary difference with you and Interceptor, besides wit and writing, is that you argue that Mia should not just get Wrath, but she should get a Sonic Sword, the Spirit Dusts, and should have the Magic Band stapled onto her for her whole career. Not once do I ever recall Interceptor bringing up that argument. He brought up Wrath, how she wasn't too much of a drain in resources, and could have good combat throughout the game though 7 move really limits what she can do.

Oh and he also never brought up 20/20 stats and compared her to Titania as well.

[Progenitus]

hey look, now we just need narga in this topic and it'll be like the good ol' days

[Snowy_One]

To be fair, Sonic Sword and Wrath could probably be better on other people. Stefan has base 8 Mag and doesn't have to rely on a 30% growth rate to get there (Mia won't usually get the Mage Band since it'll probably go to a Sage for the ability to ORKO stuff or Rhys/Mist for greater Physic range). So your stuff is still a stretch.

Soren's MAG growth is already very high, Ilyana would rather have a speed band, Tormod won't even exist until chapter 16, and Calill joins too high level for a band to be of any real use (and nobody cares about Bastion). Don't forget the dusts either. Mia gains +4 attack from supports as well which was key in getting her to the point where she could reliably kill.

The proposed tier positioning you have in mind Snowy is also a bit of a lift. Last tier list I saw you post had her in like, near the top of Upper Mid. That is truly ridiculous when you take into account that you also put her right above Muarim, you put her a tier over Stefan, and you put Zihark in the bottom of Upper Mid, all of which is lol. Interceptor was content to place her around Zihark's level, possibly below, because he recognized the two were essentially interchangeable.

Look at it from my point of view at the time. Zihark needs Muarim to be as good as he is and Muarim could be interchanged with another Laguz and had a very real possibility of being out of range. Mia only 'needed' Rhys/Ilyana if she was going with the SS, otherwise her better skill selection and earlier join time was worth far more. Stefan, meanwhile, needs you to divert a laguz for a full chapter and comes in with other units on the team capable of doing what he did better.

I won't deny that it wasn't the most equal comparison (Zihark having trouble keeping up with Muarim, but Rhys/Ilyana not having trouble with Mia), but to acknowledge a shortcoming back then was to give a opening for smash to bash in.

The primary difference with you and Interceptor, besides wit and writing, is that you argue that Mia should not just get Wrath, but she should get a Sonic Sword, the Spirit Dusts, and should have the Magic Band stapled onto her for her whole career. Not once do I ever recall Interceptor bringing up that argument. He brought up Wrath, how she wasn't too much of a drain in resources, and could have good combat throughout the game though 7 move really limits what she can do.

That was never my argument. My argument was that Mia could take wrath, and then if the situation called for it, take either the dusts or band to utilize the SS. Not all three at once. I also did acknowledge that it could be a drain, which was why I argued that Mia was the best for wrath and that, of the available sages, most of them would desire other bands/wouldn't need the mage band. I never said 'Mia should get the mage band just because' I said 'Soren's MAG is already high, Ilyana wants the speed band, Tormod comes underleveled, Calill would prefer the dusts' and such, which at the time was true, so that the mage band was a free-floating unclaimed resource before I claimed that Mia could use it.

Oh and he also never brought up 20/20 stats and compared her to Titania as well.

1) At the time 20/20 stats were considered the likely endgame (unlike the seemingly 20/10 stats on SF).

2) I REALLY hate the prepromoted early-game units and how people always seem to pop them up at the top of the list without even talking about their (usually lack-luster) endgame.