...did I just fight a guy?

[lolDeath]

I was on the train with a friend and there was this guy that she seemed to know that was messing around with her. He was feeling her up, just making her feel uncomfortable. At first I decided to ignore it but after I saw those puppy eyes for the 9th time, I knew I had to do something. I... might have said something offensive... and then he gets pissed. He stops harassing her and focuses on me. The asshole starts to curse at me so I sorta kinda said "no need to get your panties all up in a bunch."

That probably wasnt the best response, he got angrier and started to punch me. I'm 5'6 and around 105, this guy is huge. He seemed like he was one year older than me. I tried to hold off as long as I could but as I left my face open. He punched me there, I paused for a second and looked him dead in the eye, something about that look made him freeze giving me the opportunity to return the hit. I guess I lost myself in the moment, I hit him a few more times before he started to beg.

I'm surprised, really. The last time I fought like this was in 5th grade. Kai is a lover, not a fighter. The best part is that the 3 or 4 people on the train didnt even do anything to help, I vaguely recall someone taking out there phone and recording us fight.

Thats New York for you.

lol dude you're a fucking dork. you don't need to make such a big deal about this, it happens.

ON TO OTHER MATTERS any person with half a brain should know that if they show a lot of skin and just generally dress in a provocative manner it will attract male attention. That is very basic common sense, but I guess there are a lot of neurotic bitches around sorely lacking. Shout date rape, tell people to get their hands off you, but don't blame them for the signal YOU are sending out. Fucking people, I swear to god. You guys can't be this naive anymore, time has passed, middle school has ended. If this concept is still so hard to grasp I don't know what to tell you. Get ready for a life where you totally misconstrue everything I guess?

[Tangerine]

lol dude you're a fucking dork. you don't need to make such a big deal about this, it happens.

ON TO OTHER MATTERS any person with half a brain should know that if they show a lot of skin and just generally dress in a provocative manner it will attract male attention. That is very basic common sense, but I guess there are a lot of neurotic bitches around sorely lacking. Shout date rape, tell people to get their hands off you, but don't blame them for the signal YOU are sending out. Fucking people, I swear to god. You guys can't be this naive anymore, time has passed, middle school has ended. If this concept is still so hard to grasp I don't know what to tell you. Get ready for a life where you totally misconstrue everything I guess?

omg, you are such an ass about it. But you're absolutely right.

except the first line, don't talk crap about Kai >:(.

[Inactive Account]

Uh, you don't party much do you? There are TONS of women who dress skimpy for the sake of attracting a sex partner. TONS. Nobody dresses to attract a creepy stalker, which is all your example encompasses. "Follow me home"? Come on, get real.

Never said people don't dress to attract sex partners, but the point still stands-- they are doing so to attract people to have sex with on their own terms, not to be harassed. Clothing sending the message of "I want to find someone to sleep with" still does not mean "anyone can do as they wish to me".

Anyway, if you're trying to say that revealing clothing is LIKELY to attract harassment, there are much less problematic ways to say it than "asking for it". "Asking for it" implies that the victim is at fault, and harassment is by definition impossible to ask for-- literally asking* for someone to do whatever action means that it isn't harassment, but is clearly not what happens when someone decides to dress in a revealing manner.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is this just turning into a repetition on the theme of

A: [Problem] is not how the way things should be.

B: Yes, but that's the way things are.

A: I'm not saying they aren't, I'm saying they are, that that's a problem, and that it should change.

(loop forever)

?

Basically my argument boils down to "While people sometimes assume that wearing a certain type of clothing voids one's right to determine who touches them and in what way, this is not actually true, and that assumption is something that society needs to work against."

*asking, with the assumption that they are capable of giving consent at that time

Edited November 19, 2011 by Kiryn

[lolDeath]

Kai knows I think he is a nigga of above average quality.

I think Kiryn is mad that nobody wants to molest them.

[Ansem]

Kai knows I think he is a nigga of above average quality.

Thats the nicest thing you've ever said to me ;~;

Edited November 19, 2011 by Espeon

[ReformBlade]

Maybe it is not their fault for being harassed, but it is utter stupidity if you honestly do not expect harassment if you wear revealing clothing.

I hope you're not meaning exactly what I'm reading right there. Why should there be an expectation of harassment, as if there's some mystical equation (teehee) to how much you wear and how much you're going to be harassed. I'm oblivious to the whole club scene, mingling is just too mainstream for me, but I understand that there's a different atmosphere there. However, outside of that one specific zone (I'll call it that), why should you EXPECT harassment for wearing X clothing?

Now, I think one should be PREPARED for the eventuality that it COULD happen, but to be expecting it is just... paranoia.

I should note that when I say harassment or any variation thereof, I'm talking of the physical variety.

[lolDeath]

Expecting it in that kind of environment when you are dressed like a skank is common sense. If you lack the small amount it requires to piece that together you will have some bigger problems than a guy dry humping you.

Remember any of those old drug songs from elementary school? Just use those. JUST SAY NO, JUST SAY NO, IT'S THE ONLY WAY TO GO JUST SAY NO JUST SAY NO JUST SAY NOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[Tangerine]

Never said people don't dress to attract sex partners, but the point still stands-- they are doing so to attract people to have sex with on their own terms, not to be harassed. Clothing sending the message of "I want to find someone to sleep with" still does not mean "anyone can do as they wish to me".

Anyway, if you're trying to say that revealing clothing is LIKELY to attract harassment, there are much less problematic ways to say it than "asking for it". "Asking for it" implies that the victim is at fault, and harassment is by definition impossible to ask for-- literally asking* for someone to do whatever action means that it isn't harassment, but is clearly not what happens when someone decides to dress in a revealing manner.

I already corrected myself on my use of the word "asking", I don't understand why it is still a talking point for you.

Re-read Raven's post. He described what certain women are like very well. That is where guys get the idea and the message they are receiving when you wear revealing clothing in places like that, whether or not it is the one you intend them to. That is the risk we take when we dress that way.

Basically my argument boils down to "While people sometimes assume that wearing a certain type of clothing voids one's right to determine who touches them and in what way, this is not actually true, and that assumption is something that society needs to work against."

Yes, that is the loop that is occurring.

The fact of the matter is that it exists and the risk is there. If you believe things should change, super. Work hard towards getting them changed. But you cannot ignore that the problem is there and that it could take a long time to change, so WE need to take preventative measures and be careful of how we dress and act regardless of what the ideal state of the world would be.

If we ignore the problem then we are partly at fault for any mixed signals sent out.

I hope you're not meaning exactly what I'm reading right there. Why should there be an expectation of harassment, as if there's some mystical equation (teehee) to how much you wear and how much you're going to be harassed. I'm oblivious to the whole club scene, mingling is just too mainstream for me, but I understand that there's a different atmosphere there. However, outside of that one specific zone (I'll call it that), why should you EXPECT harassment for wearing X clothing?

Now, I think one should be PREPARED for the eventuality that it COULD happen, but to be expecting it is just... paranoia.

I should note that when I say harassment or any variation thereof, I'm talking of the physical variety.

That is essentially what I was saying. If you don't expect for it to happen then you are less prepared.

Edited November 19, 2011 by Tangerine

[Original Alear]

Now now, you don't need to look at everything objectively.

I look objectively at whatever I damn well please, including groins, and I accept the consequences not knowing full well what they may be.

They're not, just too drunk to do much about it, about a month ago there was a late 40 something looking guy trying to get with a girl who was about my age. Quite a bit of wtf ensued when he buggered off for whatever reason.

Qualms or anxiety, probably. But that's just a guess.

The fact that being harassed is made more likely by being dressed in a revealing manner DOES NOT MEAN that dressing in a revealing manner is ASKING for harassment. No article of clothing is capable of voiding someone's rights to decide in what ways and by whom their body is allowed to be touched. Cleavage is NOT the same as saying "I am okay with being touched by random strangers." Just because it is LIKELY that harassment will occur does NOT mean that the fault lies with the victim; it still lies with the harasser, who has decided that they are entitled to touch without asking. Or to simplify, just because harassment is a likely outcome in current society does not mean that it is not a problem.

Sorry Kiryn, but I think Tangerine has a point about clubs, and other areas - if there are restricted areas where more physical intimacy is considered appropriate behavior, then you're stupid to be there if you're not interested in that kind of behavior. I'm not saying they aren't within their rights to tell people "no don't touch" and expect responsiveness to that, but the most responsible thing is not to go in there in the first place, and to leave if you receive unwanted attention. Trying to reform society is all well and good, but most of the time society is fragmented, and allowing separate freedoms can be better than trying to go black and white with your arguments.

A message of "Look at me, I feel attractive" is more likely-- attention is frequently a motivator, specifically positive attention.

Ugh.

Basically my argument boils down to "While people sometimes assume that wearing a certain type of clothing voids one's right to determine who touches them and in what way, this is not actually true, and that assumption is something that society needs to work against."

I am perfectly ok with that, in fact I might even consider myself on your side, but let me ask you a question I believe may be somewhat illuminating: why does society need to do it. We are all of us very fond of talking about wants as needs. Just because you want something does not make it a necessity. This world does not alter itself to your whims. Or perhaps it does, in which case you are blessed indeed.

[Inactive Account]

Going to break the loop here because it is still happening. Repeating the cycle of "It is not okay that this happens", "Yes but this is what happens in reality", "Exactly, this is what happens and that is a problem", "This is what happens in reality and if you say it doesn't happen you're an idiot" is not going to get anyone anywhere, and I am getting very tired of it.

I am perfectly ok with that, in fact I might even consider myself on your side, but let me ask you a question I believe may be somewhat illuminating: why does society need to do it. We are all of us very fond of talking about wants as needs. Just because you want something does not make it a necessity. This world does not alter itself to your whims. Or perhaps it does, in which case you are blessed indeed.

This isn't about my personal whims. This is about the fact that our current society does not always acknowledge that everyone has the basic right to determine whether and in what ways others act on their body in a sexual context. Are there personal elements? Sure-- due to several factors I am more likely to suffer the effects of a society that disregards certain people's right to their bodies than, say, a cis male is. Do those elements mean that that disregard isn't a problem? Absolutely not, which is why I work to change it. I don't expect it to go away magically, but I do want it to have at least improved some by the time my life ends.

I was going to wonder why we were letting someone get away with the tired old "X is only against harassment because they can't get any" garbage, then I realized it was Death and nobody gives a damn.

Edited November 19, 2011 by Kiryn

[Original Alear]

This isn't about my personal whims. This is about the fact that our current society does not always acknowledge that everyone has the basic right to determine whether and in what ways others act on their body in a sexual context. Are there personal elements? Sure-- due to several factors I am more likely to suffer the effects of a society that disregards certain people's right to their bodies than, say, a cis male is. Do those elements mean that that disregard isn't a problem? Absolutely not, which is why I work to change it. I don't expect it to go away magically, but I do want it to have at least improved some by the time my life ends.

You still haven't persuaded me that this is a need. My argument was semantic. Additionally, rights are whims. Maybe not just personal whims though, so I guess I spoke poorly as well. They started as personal whims and became collective. Or rather they were observed, then codified.

And unless you are going to weigh in against a sexually promiscuous society, I see no convincing argument as of yet against the suspension of the right to determine ex-ante that people should not interact in a promiscuous manner in certain locations, such as clubs where such behavior is generally accepted by those who frequent those places. "Law of the land."

Edited November 19, 2011 by BlueMartianKitty

[Inactive Account]

This has nothing to do with promiscuity. Perhaps I was unclear: this is about CONSENT.

Are you going to try and argue with me that the basic right to not be subjected to sexual contact without consent is not necessary?

[peener weener]

Good. They shouldn't.

...:7

you're not very forgiving are you

:V fuck it kick the guy in the balls till one of them bursts or something

okay kiryn you are totally missing the point here

there are rapists there

and they're just really fucking horny

and there will possibly be some raping done

and it just so happens that people are more prone to be attracted to a girl whose tits are just hopping about without regard for silly human clothing and with a miniskirt so short you can practically see the bitch's uterus

now I guess in an ideal world there would be no rape but oh boy that's just how it is

and yes I am a dick and yes I did say rape happens. as bad as it is. and as bad as the sentence is.

rape happens.

Edited November 19, 2011 by Stolypin Necktie

[uguu]

This has nothing to do with promiscuity. Perhaps I was unclear: this is about CONSENT.

Are you going to try and argue with me that the basic right to not be subjected to sexual contact without consent is not necessary?

All humans are objects, thus all women are objects. As all women are objects, it means that they can be played with by anyone who wants to in whatever way they want. This, of course, doesn't mean that men are not objects to be played with. After all, as I said, all humans are objects. All objects exist to be played with, and an object can neither consent nor say "no", they can merely make inane noise.

[Original Alear]

This has nothing to do with promiscuity. Perhaps I was unclear: this is about CONSENT.

Are you going to try and argue with me that the basic right to not be subjected to sexual contact without consent is not necessary?

A series of three logical questions should suffice: A is Necessary for what? B? And why is B necessary? And if B isn't necessary, why was A necessary?

Jesus christ. Just because you want something to be a certain way doesn't mean it has to be a certain way. Just because I agree with your principles doesn't mean I'm going to misuse poor, misbegotten English.

All humans are objects, thus all women are objects. As all women are objects, it means that they can be played with by anyone who wants to in whatever way they want. This, of course, doesn't mean that men are not objects to be played with. After all, as I said, all humans are objects. All objects exist to be played with, and an object can neither consent nor say "no", they can merely make inane noise.

Daffy Duck: You're despicable!

Edited November 19, 2011 by BlueMartianKitty

[Thor Odinson]

...:7

you're not very forgiving are you

:V fuck it kick the guy in the balls till one of them bursts or something

I'm forgiving on things that deserve forgiveness. But if a man can't keep his hand to himself, he is not suitable for reproduction. He'd be a terrible role-model, and his hormones needs to be in check anyway. Might as well make him into a eunuch. Nobody deserves sexual harassment. Ever.

Keep in mind that I know chicks sexually harass people too, I just don't have a efficient solution for that.

[uguu]

I'm forgiving on things that deserve forgiveness. But if a man can't keep his hand to himself, he is not suitable for reproduction. He'd be a terrible role-model, and his hormones needs to be in check anyway. Might as well make him into a eunuch. Nobody deserves sexual harassment. Ever.

Keep in mind that I know chicks sexually harass people too, I just don't have a efficient solution for that.

just beat them up

[Ansem]

I'm forgiving on things that deserve forgiveness. But if a man can't keep his hand to himself, he is not suitable for reproduction. He'd be a terrible role-model, and his hormones needs to be in check anyway. Might as well make him into a eunuch. Nobody deserves sexual harassment. Ever.

Keep in mind that I know chicks sexually harass people too, I just don't have a efficient solution for that.

Sexually harass them back. Harder. With a stick.

[peener weener]

I'm forgiving on things that deserve forgiveness. But if a man can't keep his hand to himself, he is not suitable for reproduction. He'd be a terrible role-model, and his hormones needs to be in check anyway. Might as well make him into a eunuch. Nobody deserves sexual harassment. Ever.

Keep in mind that I know chicks sexually harass people too, I just don't have a efficient solution for that.

if she's a pregnant chick, bat her belly until you're sure the baby is dead, then hit it some more for good measure

[Ansem]

Hey if you kill the baby you're saving the girl a lot of pain.

[peener weener]

and maybe she got pregnant through rape! it's morally okay!

and anyway she doesn't deserve to have kids if she's sexually harrassing someone, right?

[uguu]

and maybe she got pregnant through rape! it's morally okay!

and anyway she doesn't deserve to have kids if she's sexually harrassing someone, right?

yeah and I mean she really doesn't need to be teaching any kids that sexual harassment is a good thing

[peener weener]

pretty much so yeah if you see preggy feeling someone up just grab a stick and get rolling

it's okay she doesn't know yet but it's better for everyone really and at some point she'll be like damn I'm grateful I got the living kid beat out of me and society will be like damn it's great that she didn't have a kid I'm grateful to whoever may or may not have beaten the living kid out of her

Edited November 19, 2011 by Stolypin Necktie

[Original Alear]

I'm forgiving on things that deserve forgiveness. But if a man can't keep his hand to himself, he is not suitable for reproduction. He'd be a terrible role-model, and his hormones needs to be in check anyway. Might as well make him into a eunuch. Nobody deserves sexual harassment. Ever.

Keep in mind that I know chicks sexually harass people too, I just don't have a efficient solution for that.

Reproduction =/= parenting or role-modeling.

And any guy who wants to have kids is just a slave to his genes or his own ego. Wait, that was harsh and uncalled for. And in all seriousness for a brief pause, Stolypin has it right - it's ridiculous to take away someone's ability to have children for groping. And while I didn't want to bring this up, I was groped by a couple of girls several times when I was in middle school and strongly disliked the feeling - but just because it sucks doesn't condemn the other person to be punished in such a way. Hate doesn't undo what's been done.

Now back to business as usual.

Edited November 19, 2011 by BlueMartianKitty

[uguu]

pretty much so yeah if you see preggy feeling someone up just grab a stick and get rolling

it's okay she doesn't know yet but it's better for everyone really and at some point she'll be like damn I'm grateful I got the living kid beat out of me and society will be like damn it's great that she didn't have a kid I'm grateful to whoever may or may not have beaten the living kid out of her

I feel this has become relevant http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SagayzX2T7Y&t=2m50s