Tangerine Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 The thing is, there would be no incident if 'the man' wasn't committing any wrongdoings. I'm sorry, but that to me kinda places all the blame on the man. But it's not wrong there. Should someone get in trouble for using firearms at a shooting range? It is perfectly acceptable in those establishments. This does not mean that they will just randomly go up to any girl in a club and try it, you have to decide what message you are OK with sending by the way you dress. That is how you communicate in those environments, and that is how a lot of women have chosen to wear that type of outfit. You cannot blame the guy without also blaming the people teaching them that it's okay to think that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lolDeath Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 all i did was dress in a sexually provocative manner how dare you approach me in a sexual way you bastard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tangerine Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 Hahaha, I know right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 So, uh, it's the fault of both sides. 1. Clothing styles send a message. 2. People can respond inappropriately to messages. If this were about words, I think it would be easier to understand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lolDeath Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 hi eclipse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 Hi Death dearest. Which means that no clothes should send no message and. . .I'll shut up now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tangerine Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 No clothes sends the message that you are just doing your job. Exhibitionists have to make a living too you know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peener weener Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 No. No clothes does not mean no message. And clothing certainly does not mean message necessarily, but appearance does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ansem Posted November 20, 2011 Author Share Posted November 20, 2011 its not my fault my boobs are big ;~; he didnt have to grab them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peener weener Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 well maybe you were born a slut and always will be Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Defeatist Elitist Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 It is a touchy subject. I don't want to outright say that it is also the woman's fault, but I don't believe you are innocent if you are wearing something that you KNOW will attract that kind of attention. It would be different if things were how Kiryn believes would be ideal and some guy was still doing it. But in today's society this is how things are. If you can prevent it from happening and choose not to then it is impossible to say that you had no part in the occurrence of such a situation. Maybe I should put it like this. Consider that every right a person has is either a negative or positive right. Negative rights require inaction on the behalf of someone else, positive rights require action on the behalf of someone else. Every person has the right to not be sexually assaulted, and that is a negative right. That is to say, it simply requires that others do not sexually assault you. A woman wearing revealing clothing is more or less irrelevent to sexual assault, because sexual assault is entirely dependent on the actions of another person. It may well be far more likely if a woman wears revealing clothes, but that doesn't mean she shares some of the blame. Let me use this argument people have used with me as an example. Let's say there is a transgendered teen. This teen is born sexually male. At some point, they start coming to terms with their gender identity and decide to begin behaving in a more feminine manner. This will, undoubtedly massively increase the chances of this individual being the subject of bullying, discrimination and assault. Is it therefore partially this person's fault if any of these things happen to them? I have heard people argue that it is partially the victims fault, but that seems pretty absurd. I don't think that the comparison between this and racial segregation is accurate at all, and I am definitely not going to go any further into that past this statement - it is a whole other ball of wax that I am not interested in talking about on Serenes. See, I'm not trying to compare it to racial segregation or start an argument about that. At all. What I'm trying to convey is the fact that if nobody actually goes and defies what is considered proper, change will be significantly slower. Women just not wearing skimpy clothing out when they want to avoid unwanted sexual contact will not make things change any faster, it will simply reinforce the idea that all women wearing revealing clothing are looking to be felt up, etc. Of course, I don't think that it can be defended. It's entirely different in a club or party scene - I will defend a dude completely in that scenario assuming it is nothing serious. What is "nothing serious"? If you mean just jeering, or comments, then OK. If you mean unwanted touching that stops immediately upon a woman saying it's unwelcome, then OK. I agree. But I'm just not sure what you mean. While I do believe that mentality transfers over to every-day life and that it is also the fault of the women who give them that idea (as well as the complete lack of awareness and guiding in places of learning), I don't believe that it is correct for them to think that way. When I said "there is a time and a place for everything" it applied to them as well. Skimpy outfits do not belong in the general public, but neither does the mentality that skimpy outfit = looking for a man. But again that's really just forcing societal norms on people, isn't it? What you're saying is that "there is this idea that some ways of dressing or only appropriate for certain situations", when I really don't think that should be a mentality. Fuck appropriateness, if someone wants to go out in revealing clothing, or fuck, if someone wants to go out completely naked, that should be entirely their choice. Did I not say that in a nicer way ? I'm not quite sure what this response was for. You just said you disagreed, and there was sort of an implication that these peoples opinions should be taken even remotely seriously. I don't really think that teaches them that at all. The point is that there ARE women at fault and they are part of the reason all of us have to be careful about how we dress and act in certain settings. No, the reason women "have to" be careful about how they dress in certain situations is because our society stills clings to the idea that women are at fault for dressing this way, and again, the only way we can stop society from thinking this is to actively challenge it, and I don't think saying "Don't wear skimpy clothing or you're more likely to get sexually assaulted" challenges it in any way. In fact, it reinforces that idea, because the implication is that "only women who want to be/are willing to take the risk of being sexually assaulted will wear revealing clothing", which sort of means we won't think of it as sexual assault if it happens (as sexual assault with consent isn't actually sexual assault). If you took precautions and are still sexually harassed by someone I don't understand how anyone could believe it is their fault. That person would have done it anyway. As noted, there are men who are just pigs. Now, my argument is going to look positively scizophrenic here, but I really don't think you should say that some people are just pigs. It's sort of dehumanizing, and I think it's an oversimplification of things. The use of "sexual assault" is going to make people believe we are discussing a much more serious form of harassment than we actually are and any response I make is going to make me sound like a terrible person. Just to make it clear to people reading - sexual assault is any form of contact without previously given consent, verbally or physical. Not just 'that'. I may be mistaken in my definitions, but I am fairly certain that sexual assault only refers to things like rape and innapropriate touching. Verbal sexual harrassment is a seperate category entirely. The United States certainly doesn't include unwanted verbal advances as sexual assault, and from what I can tell, Canada doesn't either (though Canada has some fucked laws so who knows). Indeed, by your definition, if I'm reading it right, asking for consent would be sexual assault because you didn't have previously given consent to ask for consent, and that could be argued to be verbal sexual contact. I mean, let me make it clear, I am in no way arguing about innapropriate comments or verbal communication (unless coercion or black mail or intimidation or shit are involved), because I'm generally extremely anti-censorship and think people should be allowed to say pretty much whatever they want. But yes, I do think that choosing to dress promiscuously in certain settings is on you and that you are taking a calculated risk. If you go to a club dressed in revealing clothing you are sending guys a message, whether it is the one you intend to send or not. You are entering an establishment in which that type of contact is ACCEPTED and dressing like all of the women who Raven has described in a previous post. Maybe so, but it should be pretty clear once you say "no", that that type of contact is unacceptable. But other than that, it's still sort of bizzarre to just assume a bunch of things about a person based on what they're wearing, and then just not ask at all. If you say no or tell him to stop and the situation escalates then it is on him. But you cannot simply say "oh that guy is terrible, he's wrong". I'm neither saying he's terrible or wrong, I'm merely saying the blame has to be placed fully on the person doing the sexual assault. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aleph Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 (edited) Yeah where the hell does this "she asked for it" crap come from? There are much more efficient ways to say "grab my breasts" than something as vague as them being visible. Swimsuits are pretty revealing; should I be groping everyone at the pool? Women carry purses around sometimes; should they be blamed for being robbed because the purse they chose to wear looked particularly easy to steal? Wasn't the dude in the OP a complete stranger anyway? How many things can you do with complete strangers without asking and not be a dick? Not very many? What do those few things have in common? They're not rape? Hm. No idiot, it's not even over. Consider this If a chick actually WANTED to get a dude to grope her by wearing revealing clothing, she'd prabably talk to the dude first right? Some random ass dude coming up to her and doing whatever is rape. I seriously doubt anyone who would wear clothing with the mindset of "I want so and so to get nasty with me, in public if he (or she?!) has to" is going mean "every fucking person" and not "that cute [guy/girl] I plan on hitting on myself as opposed to being molested by without warrant". Like seriously, she'll at least wink at you or something if you're the person she had in mind. Maybe some people are complete whores and really do want everyone to just touch them everywhere ohmygod. It would prabably be smart to figure out if they're that person instead of just guessing? I would think. Edited November 20, 2011 by Obviam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tangerine Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 (edited) First of all, given the way you defined sexual assault, I am going to cut out all instances in which you referred to it and not respond to them. I am NOT saying it is someone's fault if they get raped. That is utterly ridiculous and I don't understand how you got that from my posts. Sexual assault can be verbal, visual, or anything that forces a person to join in unwanted sexual contact or attention. That is what I think. Let me use this argument people have used with me as an example. Let's say there is a transgendered teen. This teen is born sexually male. At some point, they start coming to terms with their gender identity and decide to begin behaving in a more feminine manner. This will, undoubtedly massively increase the chances of this individual being the subject of bullying, discrimination and assault. Is it therefore partially this person's fault if any of these things happen to them? I have heard people argue that it is partially the victims fault, but that seems pretty absurd. Are they to blame for the acts someone else committed? No. Are they at fault for increasing the likelihood that such a confrontation will happen? Yes. Is that OK? No. Regardless, this example has little value in the discussion. There is no place you can go where it's okay for someone to insult transgendered people, which is what we are discussing on the subject of physical contact. A place where it's okay and acceptable for it to happen without necessarily needing consent. See, I'm not trying to compare it to racial segregation or start an argument about that. At all. What I'm trying to convey is the fact that if nobody actually goes and defies what is considered proper, change will be significantly slower. Women just not wearing skimpy clothing out when they want to avoid unwanted sexual contact will not make things change any faster, it will simply reinforce the idea that all women wearing revealing clothing are looking to be felt up, etc. Maybe some women don't care about "changing things" or "making a statement". Maybe they just want to avoid risking that situation from coming up at all. The point is that currently this mentality exists. If you are one of the women who are interested in changing things, go ahead and give it your best shot. That doesn't change the fact that other women should be aware of what some people believe based on what you wear, and how to avoid those situations. What is "nothing serious"? If you mean just jeering, or comments, then OK. If you mean unwanted touching that stops immediately upon a woman saying it's unwelcome, then OK. I agree. But I'm just not sure what you mean. Of course that's what I mean - I have said throughout this entire thread that if a guy continues after refusal then it is entirely on him. If you agree with me then this entire discussion has been pointless. But again that's really just forcing societal norms on people, isn't it? What you're saying is that "there is this idea that some ways of dressing or only appropriate for certain situations", when I really don't think that should be a mentality. Fuck appropriateness, if someone wants to go out in revealing clothing, or fuck, if someone wants to go out completely naked, that should be entirely their choice. Well that is never going to happen. There will always be limits. You just said you disagreed, and there was sort of an implication that these peoples opinions should be taken even remotely seriously. I didn't suggest they should be taken seriously, I explained why I think some school systems do not speak much about it. No, the reason women "have to" be careful about how they dress in certain situations is because our society stills clings to the idea that women are at fault for dressing this way, and again, the only way we can stop society from thinking this is to actively challenge it, and I don't think saying "Don't wear skimpy clothing or you're more likely to get sexually assaulted" challenges it in any way. In fact, it reinforces that idea, because the implication is that "only women who want to be/are willing to take the risk of being sexually assaulted will wear revealing clothing", which sort of means we won't think of it as sexual assault if it happens (as sexual assault with consent isn't actually sexual assault). "Society" is not some separate entity from the human race. We are society. You can't free women from fault, they are a part of the reason "society" thinks that way, because that is how they dress to attract that kind of attention. Again, the way you are describing sexual assault is not the way I define it. I am not saying that being raped or touched far too inappropriately is partly the woman's fault. I don't even want to talk about those situations, they are not the purpose of my discussion. I mean, let me make it clear, I am in no way arguing about innapropriate comments or verbal communication (unless coercion or black mail or intimidation or shit are involved), because I'm generally extremely anti-censorship and think people should be allowed to say pretty much whatever they want. Well I'm not arguing about rape or contact gone too far. Maybe so, but it should be pretty clear once you say "no", that that type of contact is unacceptable. But other than that, it's still sort of bizzarre to just assume a bunch of things about a person based on what they're wearing, and then just not ask at all. Well, that's the club scene for you. When the music and buzz is so loud you can barely hear eachother you communicate through body language and clothing. Edited November 20, 2011 by Tangerine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peener weener Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 did you hear the whoosh sound just now alex that was a point no scratch that that was the point and it flew at ludicrous speeds right about twenty, maybe thirty meters over your head Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReformBlade Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 But it's not wrong there. Should someone get in trouble for using firearms at a shooting range? It is perfectly acceptable in those establishments. This does not mean that they will just randomly go up to any girl in a club and try it, you have to decide what message you are OK with sending by the way you dress. That is how you communicate in those environments, and that is how a lot of women have chosen to wear that type of outfit. You cannot blame the guy without also blaming the people teaching them that it's okay to think that way. Yes, yes I can. It's very easy, watch. (I mean, you CAN blame them, but they aren't the 'criminals' in this case since they aren't actually doing it.) Did he sexually harass her? If yes> It's his fault. If no> There's nothing wrong here. Notice how the clothes did not factor in. Saying 'Oh that's how society has taught him to act' is such a cop-out. Only a complete retard would actually believe in something like that. If you can't think for yourself under normal circumstances such as being out in public/at a club, you don't deserve sympathy for your acting out in a completely inappropriate way. I really don't see how this is a hard concept to grasp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lolDeath Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 What we have here is a failure to communicate. Some people are talking about just general sexual advances, while others are talking about sexual assault. None of you are even arguing with one another. This website is still retarded as fuck. Go about your business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uguu Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 (edited) Yes, yes I can. It's very easy, watch. (I mean, you CAN blame them, but they aren't the 'criminals' in this case since they aren't actually doing it.) Did he sexually harass her? If yes> It's his fault. If no> There's nothing wrong here. Notice how the clothes did not factor in. Saying 'Oh that's how society has taught him to act' is such a cop-out. Only a complete retard would actually believe in something like that. If you can't think for yourself under normal circumstances such as being out in public/at a club, you don't deserve sympathy for your acting out in a completely inappropriate way. I really don't see how this is a hard concept to grasp. Actually, Phoenix, the human mind is kind of a piece of shit. You probably have no idea how affected everything you think is by society if you say that. edit: oh you aren't phoenix at all, just your avatar looked badly edited enough to be one of his so I ASSUMED THINGS man Edited November 20, 2011 by Hikarussr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tangerine Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 did you hear the whoosh sound just now alex that was a point no scratch that that was the point and it flew at ludicrous speeds right about twenty, maybe thirty meters over your head Basically the same reason I am not going to respond to Rainbow's post. What we have here is a failure to communicate. Some people are talking about just general sexual advances, while others are talking about sexual assault. None of you are even arguing with one another. This website is still retarded as fuck. Go about your business. Yeah really, I am getting tired of having to defend myself from strawman arguments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkhead Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 My mother told me women like to look sexy, so if they dress in a revealing matter, it's likely that they want to look good for themselves, no necessarily to attract anybody. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lolDeath Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 I have it on good authority that Phoenix raped a baby in 1997. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ansem Posted November 20, 2011 Author Share Posted November 20, 2011 Your stupid argument reminded me of this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uguu Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 Basically the same reason I am not going to respond to Rainbow's post. Yeah really, I am getting tired of having to defend myself from strawman arguments. Couldn't it be said that both sides are providing strawman arguments for the other, if you're gonna glorify what you're saying by arguing that everyone else is strawmanning shit the hell up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lolDeath Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 That baby was Kai. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkhead Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 That baby was Kai. xDDDDDDDDDDDDDD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aleph Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 [annoying shota crap] I did glance at Rowan's post but it was super long and if other people don't read his post they'll at least read mine!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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