So, FE4.

[Integrity]

With this recent trend of Fin being free in FE4 drafts (a thing I do not like), I got to some thinking.

There's been some moping about FE4 drafts not being clean, as a few of us know. Or maybe I'm the only person who's noticed. Anyway, I wanted a thread to ramble about some prospective rule changes and get shot down.

DO NOTHING

Obvious choice. Nothing's wrong, Ike, let it lie.

MAKE ONE CHARACTER FREE/BANNED

So FE4 drafts become clean. That means that even Asaello gets drafted. Holy shit.

Of course, that leads into a question: who do we change?

The way things usually go IME is the final character gets prohibited because the person with Briggid is butthurt they can't use Assholio so he can't be free. This is fine.

That led me to my other conclusion: what's the real biggest problem with FE4 drafts? Arthur. And why's it Arthur? Tiltyu.

And why's it Tiltyu? Take it a step further. Levin.

So what if Levin were free? He's a dependable character without being ridiculous and only around for Gen 1 unlike Fin. But then what could we do with him once he was free for all?

Prevent him from getting married.

And then we have a clean draft.

It's genius, I tell you.

EDIT: Obvious downsides are this significantly devalues Tiltyu as a draftee, but she's always taken by somebody who doesn't get Levin ANYWAY because the paradigm is such. As it stands, I mostly just hate that Third Place is basically shoehorned into taking Tiltyu every time unless he's an absolute moron.

Edited December 4, 2011 by Integrity

[Darros]

Well, the thing is banning Holsety in Gen 2 isn't exactly something people will want, I think. It lessens the draft potential of Tiltyu a lot, and Fury a little bit.

Still, the idea makes sense. And it's not like people have to conform to the Rulset, if people want something changed, they can change it themselves.

EDIT: Obvious downsides are this significantly devalues Tiltyu as a draftee, but she's always taken by somebody who doesn't get Levin ANYWAY because the paradigm is such. As it stands, I mostly just hate that Third Place is basically shoehorned into taking Tiltyu every time unless he's an absolute moron.

Doesn't make you a moron if you don't take Tiltyu. Like Zak said, why would you fuck over your team just to prevent someone from getting a good unit.

Edited December 4, 2011 by Skasaher

[Integrity]

Well, the thing is banning Holsety in Gen 2 isn't exactly something people will want, I think. It lessens the draft potential of Tiltyu a lot, and Fury a little bit.

Still, the idea makes sense. And it's not like people have to conform to the Rulset, if people want something changed, they can change it themselves.

It doesn't lessen Fury's value at all. As I wrote an essay about in DTE, Fury's worth is determined by her own worth, Fee's worth is determined by her dad, and Sety's worth is *essentially* static.

The problem with Holsety in Gen 2 is it always happens one of three ways:

1: Corple. No availability, won't promote to use it until Final Chapter. Practically nonexistent.

2: Sety. Decent availabilty, but it's putting a great magic on a great unit anyway. Doesn't really have the MOV to use it, though. Quite balanced.

3: Arthur. Perfect availability, amazing unit thanks to Levin, and even gets a fucking horse. Yeah.

So Gen2!Holsety is either nonexistent, a little on the meh side, or gamebreaking.

Doesn't make you a moron if you don't take Tiltyu. Like Zak said, why would you fuck over your team just to prevent someone from getting a good unit.

Levin!Arthur isn't a unit. Levin!Arthur IS a team. It's like voluntarily handing somebody Haar in an FE10 draft.

EDIT: And you say "why would you do this", go look at the logs. Do you see the proportions of people taking Tiltyu before fourth pick (in non-soyo drafts, obvs)? It's doing them little good, and yet.

And then see how every single time Tiltyu goes fourth, Levin is first scrubs draft. Hell, note how often Levin is first subs draft period. Even when the person has nobody to pair him with for Holsety, he's often still taken just so the person after won't get him.

Edited December 4, 2011 by Integrity

[riariadne]

Again

Drafts aren't about "most overkill combat unit"

it's about turns

which sort of brings up the question: How many turns does Levin!Arthur save compared to not!Levin arthur

I do like this idea, though, since it keeps third pick from being Tiltyu or, apparently, bust

Edited December 4, 2011 by Dave Strider

[Psych]

The only thing I would say, is just like the Should Haar be Banned Draft, it showed Haar isn't that much of a game breaker. It's perfectly possible that Arthur Levin isn't a breaker either.

I'm almost sure that Rescue Leaf and a Dancer is much more of a game breaker than Levin Arthur could ever hope to be. And that's cause the whole game is seizing. Arthur can only kill things to help seize. When we start moving Celice about 20 spaces a turn, that's when things get hairy.

[Shin]

Levin!Arthur does make things a lot easier. However, he's not going to save as many turns as someone like Sylvia or Edain will. I still like the idea of swapping Tiltyu's inheritance, Holsetinny is nice but not quite as overkill.

[Psych]

Levin!Arthur does make things a lot easier. However, he's not going to save as many turns as someone like Sylvia or Edain will. I still like the idea of swapping Tiltyu's inheritance, Holsetinny is nice but not quite as overkill.

That also enables Claude Tiltyu to be much better than normal. It only makes some crappy skills really.

[Shin]

That also enables Claude Tiltyu to be much better than normal. It only makes some crappy skills really.

ClaudexTiltyu really doesn't happen in drafts and the benefits she'd get would be pretty trivial. She would get access to the A-rank staves upon promotion but with only Wrath she's not leveling that much.

[Integrity]

The problem with swapping Tiltyu's inheritance is then we're descending into the dark dark world of creating mods for drafts.

On the other hand, I'm modestly positive nobody here plays FE4 drafts on cart, so maybe that's not such a bad idea ...

FE4: DRAFT APPROVED EDITION

NOW WITH A BRIGGID WHO DOESN'T SUCK AND REVERSED INHERITANCE FOR TILTYU AND AIDEEN BECAUSE INTEGRITY CREATED IT

actually now I really like this idea

@Psych: I'm willing to grant that I might be blowing this all out of proportion and Levin!Arthur doesn't actually shave much, yes, but that would require proof that I don't have. I'll bullshit facts instead.

Rescue!Leaf, by my (quick) estimation, saves a good chunk of turns overall. Considering a promotion in the C9 base, he shaves one in C9, about six in C10, and probably a good nother six more in F. If he's beefy enough and you don't have Warp, he can also save one in C8 by annihilating the squad that attacks Lenster before Celice arrives.

Laylea/Leen shaves roughly one turn in C8 and C9, about four in C10 all told, and about the same in F.

Levin!Arthur shaves ...nothing in C6, he can wipe everything ever in C7 (but so can Julia, I suppose [bracketed question: with holsety!arthur it would probably be feasible to skip resire and save a few in c6?]), then he gets his horse. Since Celice has the Leg Ring he'll shave nothing in C8 except effort (he'll wipe shit to get people to the children faster). He'll be a failsafe in C9 (again, so can Julia or Leaf or Fee or Sety or Hawk or). C10 is probably the first time he really saves since he can wipe the road to the castle before Chalphy (stopping at ishtar? possibly), and wipe around Chalphy, on his own. Ahead of everybody else. That probably accounts for ...two turns, since Celice can move his full all told. F he'll wipe the Dozel squad, saving at least a turn for Celice (sety can do that, though and maybe even lex!arthur?), and then can wipe Ishtar's team and the Dark Knights while Celice is saving Julia (I'm still undecided on whether it's quicker to free Julia or try to tank Julius down with Celice. I suspect it depends on a whole lot of things).

So really, Arthur's contribution to turncounts is fairly redundant now that I think about it. On the other hand, drafting him means you can essentially ignore ALL Gen 2 units except utility (Laylea, one Restorer just in case) and focus on building a winful Gen 1 team.

[Paperblade]

I think it would be kind of cool to make a "balance patch" aimed towards drafts but since a lot of people like playing on cartridge it would probably have to be aimed at pre-7 games or 12

[Psych]

ClaudexTiltyu really doesn't happen in drafts and the benefits she'd get would be pretty trivial. She would get access to the A-rank staves upon promotion but with only Wrath she's not leveling that much.

Yes, but if you reverse the inheritance you get another Valkyrie user. Admittedly, not one who can instantly use it like Sety or Corple, but it means TIltyu has more draftable pairings rather than Azel/Lex/Levin, since Levin usually isn't gotten, and Lex goes quickly for the other mothers.

Also, I don't really think skipping Yuria's tomes is ever good. It may cut a turn or two, but in the long run it's probably really bad. She won't be able to attack until you get Lightning otherwise, and it's not exactly better than Rezire.

Skipping Yuria in Final however, depends on how bulky Celice is, if you have Tyring, if he has Leg Ring/Dancer/Rescue, and if you have anyone else.

[Shin]

Yes, but if you reverse the inheritance you get another Valkyrie user. Admittedly, not one who can instantly use it like Sety or Corple, but it means TIltyu has more draftable pairings rather than Azel/Lex/Levin, since Levin usually isn't gotten, and Lex goes quickly for the other mothers.

Also, I don't really think skipping Yuria's tomes is ever good. It may cut a turn or two, but in the long run it's probably really bad. She won't be able to attack until you get Lightning otherwise, and it's not exactly better than Rezire.

Skipping Yuria in Final however, depends on how bulky Celice is, if you have Tyring, if he has Leg Ring/Dancer/Rescue, and if you have anyone else.

The Valkyrie Staff really isn't that useful in drafts. The argument for it giving Tiltyu more draftable pairings isn't really that valid, considering most other mothers have several usable pairings. The main issue is that it involves modification, which could lead to all sorts of naughty stuff.

[Thor Odinson]

Tinny's honestly too hard to train in a draft setting anyway without Elite, since she's pretty useless before promotion. She has B staves after promo which is okay despite being in that 6-move rut, but getting her there is a pain up the ass anyway it's not really worth it unless you have no other healer. Valkstaff or not, she just levels too slowly (except Lex!Tinnys through sheer ambush-wrath-elite-arenaspam) to even be of use.

Also, Nightmare does not want to work on Macs, NM1 being a Windows executable file and NM2... well actually I haven't figured out the issue with NM2 but it might be the same as FEditor, so it'd exclude a (small, but still existent) portion of the draft player population if it's modded. That and, unless otherwise given a specified a specific mod patch to go by and labeled [FE4 XX patch], it doesn't feel right if we're not playing the original game.

[Baldrick]

What about just banning Levin!Arthur ? Though that doesn't solve the problem of leftover units...

[Refa]

Noone ever gets Levin!Arthur, so there's absolutely no reason to complain that he's overpowered.

[Integrity]

Noone ever gets Levin!Arthur, so there's absolutely no reason to complain that he's overpowered.

Really, dude? Did you come in here trying to sound like an absolute fool?

People rarely get Levin!Arthur because third place is usually selfless enough to grab Tiltyu before fourth place can, and fourth place is almost always greedy enough to grab Levin before third place can.

That ASIDE, I strongly suggest you actually check your damn facts, considering that in Tag Team Two (days ago. DAYS, sir.) Baldrick/Rapier got Levin/Tiltyu. The Political Draft immediately before, fourth place got Levin/Tiltyu. Draft ZI, Horace got them. Tag-Team One I got them.

Are you quite done?

[General Horace]

Tiltyu isn't even a bad mother in the first place, Arthur is always a pretty good unit regardless of the father, unless you're an absolute moron, I would take Tiltyu over Lachesis and Briggid, personally.

Well, Lachesis is stretching it, but you know what I mean.

[Darros]

That ASIDE, I strongly suggest you actually check your damn facts, considering that in Tag Team Two (days ago. DAYS, sir.) Baldrick/Rapier got Levin/Tiltyu. The Political Draft immediately before, fourth place got Levin/Tiltyu. Draft ZI, Horace got them. Tag-Team One I got them.

The Political Draft is a different case. It wasn't someone drafting LevinXTiltyu, it was someone giving his "partner" LevinXTitlyu.

[Anouleth]

Noone ever gets Levin!Arthur, so there's absolutely no reason to complain that he's overpowered.

If the entire metagame is built around preventing people from getting Levin!Arthur, then sure, he isn't overpowered, but that doesn't mean that he has a beneficial effect on the metagame.

[zahlman]

Nightmare does not want to work on Macs, NM1 being a Windows executable file and NM2... well actually I haven't figured out the issue with NM2 but it might be the same as FEditor, so it'd exclude a (small, but still existent) portion of the draft player population if it's modded. That and, unless otherwise given a specified a specific mod patch to go by and labeled [FE4 XX patch], it doesn't feel right if we're not playing the original game.

I can't imagine this being done except by actually handing out a patch. In which case Nightmare is irrelevant except for the person actually making the patch (which only needs to be done once); you only need... any UPS patcher.

[Integrity]

The Political Draft is a different case. It wasn't someone drafting LevinXTiltyu, it was someone giving his "partner" LevinXTitlyu.

While the point is granted, it was still a case where somebody ended up with Levin and Tiltyu.

The only one I left out was the Shin Patch Draft, because that one was measurably different.

EDIT: Also, Anouleth's post.

Edited December 5, 2011 by Integrity

[Refa]

Really, dude? Did you come in here trying to sound like an absolute fool?

People rarely get Levin!Arthur because third place is usually selfless enough to grab Tiltyu before fourth place can, and fourth place is almost always greedy enough to grab Levin before third place can.

That ASIDE, I strongly suggest you actually check your damn facts, considering that in Tag Team Two (days ago. DAYS, sir.) Baldrick/Rapier got Levin/Tiltyu. The Political Draft immediately before, fourth place got Levin/Tiltyu. Draft ZI, Horace got them. Tag-Team One I got them.

Are you quite done?

Yes, I was definetely wrong. Next time, I'll be sure to check my facts before speaking. Here's how I think the problem should be fixed.

Unfortunately, due to some oversight, all of these drafts let the person who drafted mothers last draft the fathers first. That...is not very good. It allows the person to draft Levin!Tiltyu in one go, and obviously that's no good. "But, you say, fourth place would be at a disadvantage if it was done snake style!" But would he really? Let's find out. Please forgive me for sometimes suboptimal choices, it's very hard to draft for all four people.

(Standard draft rules here)

Contestants:

ROUND ONE

Scrub 1 (Ethlin, Leaf, Altenna)

Tool 2 (Fury, Fee, Sety)

Failure 3 (Aideen, Lana, Lester),

Drunk 4 (Ayra, Lachke, Skasaher), (Tiltyu, Arthur, Tinny)

ROUND TWO

Scrub 1 (Ethlin, Leaf, Altenna), (Briggid, Patty, Faval), Lex

Tool 2 (Fury, Fee, Sety), (Lachelis, Delmud, Nanna)

Failure 3 (Aideen, Lana, Lester), (Sylvia, Leen, Corple)

Drunk 4 (Ayra, Lachke, Skasaher), (Tiltyu, Arthur, Tinny)

ROUND THREE

Scrub 1 (Ethlin, Leaf, Altenna), (Briggid, Patty, Faval), Lex

Tool 2 (Fury, Fee, Sety), (Lachelis, Delmud, Nanna), Levin

Failure 3 (Aideen, Lana, Lester), (Sylvia, Leen, Corple), Jamka

Drunk 4 (Ayra, Lachke, Skasaher), (Tiltyu, Arthur, Tinny), Holyn, Azel

ROUND FOUR

Scrub 1 (Ethlin, Leaf, Altenna), (Briggid, Patty, Faval), Lex, Cuan, Aless

Tool 2 (Fury, Fee, Sety), (Lachelis, Delmud, Nanna), Levin, Fin

Failure 3 (Aideen, Lana, Lester), (Sylvia, Leen, Corple), Jamka, Claude

Drunk 4 (Ayra, Lachke, Skasaher), (Tiltyu, Arthur, Tinny), Holyn, Azel

ROUND FIVE

Scrub 1 (Ethlin, Leaf, Altenna), (Briggid, Patty, Faval), Lex, Cuan, Aless

Tool 2 (Fury, Fee, Sety), (Lachelis, Delmud, Nanna), Levin, Fin, Shanan

Failure 3 (Aideen, Lana, Lester), (Sylvia, Leen, Corple), Jamka, Claude, Noish

Drunk 4 (Ayra, Lachke, Skasaher), (Tiltyu, Arthur, Tinny), Holyn, Azel, Alec, Janne

and so on...

ROUND XX

Scrub 1 (Ethlin, Leaf, Altenna), (Briggid, Patty, Faval), Lex, Cuan, Aless, Hawk, Midir,...

Tool 2 (Fury, Fee, Sety), (Lachelis, Delmud, Nanna), Levin, Fin, Shanan, Laylea,...

Failure 3 (Aideen, Lana, Lester), (Sylvia, Leen, Corple), Jamka, Claude, Noish, Femina,..

Drunk 4 (Ayra, Lachke, Skasaher), (Tiltyu, Arthur, Tinny), Holyn, Azel, Alec, Janne,...

Eh...I think this is a better way of doing things (the unbalanced parts are more of my fault for quickly throwing this together, like the early Tiltyu which was unneccessary). Yes, this prevents people from having to draft Tiltyu. Yes, it does force P1 to draft Levin if noone has drafted Tiltyu before hand, and that is rather limiting. Still, P1 has an advantage anyways, so I think this is a fair (or less unfair) compromise. Certainly better than forcing P3 to draft Tiltyu.

Maybe we should actually test this out? Or has it been done before and ended up as a horrendous failure (I haven't looked at most of the drafts...)?

Edited December 5, 2011 by Refa

[Integrity]

Except you missed one thing, scro. If first place gets mothers AND fathers, they get Tiltyu first mothers and Levin first fathers.

It's better, perhaps, because they'll be forced into Briggid, but not by much.

[Shin]

What would happen if the fathers order is also randomized? That way, Levin won't always be taken by the 4th draftee. Of course it has the potential for someone to be both first or last in both rounds, but , after the initial pick, it doesn't matter too much.

[Darros]

What would happen if the fathers order is also randomized? That way, Levin won't always be taken by the 4th draftee. Of course it has the potential for someone to be both first or last in both rounds, but , after the initial pick, it doesn't matter too much.

If it's randomized we can get things such as Person A getting first pick twice. Or maybe someone (un)lucky STILL get's Levin!Tiltyu.