Rate the Unit, Day 20: Lucius

[Elieson]

Handsome trap.

I like his crit anim.

Also has hardly any competition for light magic (well, athos, but yea...and serra/renault).

Can't being myself not to use him.

6.75

Edited January 9, 2012 by Elieson

[Titamon]

Funny part is that Lucius STILL has better offense, even with Light tomes. And the offensive gap WIDENS over time. :/

So you admit his offense is just overkill? Erk 1-rounds many things just fine. At least he can take a hit if needed, I don't like my mages facing OHKO's consistently. And Erk is cheaper to equip too.

Anyways on topic 6.5/10 for that good stave rank after promo and good magic for physic

[Mekkah]

Erk and Lucius have like the same offense throughout the game taking everything into account. But Lucius has C staves so he wins. Still not the greatest unit.

Edited January 9, 2012 by Mekkah

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

But you decided to ignore, in the opening post, where I said exactly the same thing to get indignant here instead.

Classy.

I briefly glanced over your post; I didn't mean to mock/condemn/make snarky comments about your opinion in any way, shape, or form. Please don't take any personal offense to it.

My post was merely a response to 3-13, who gave anima as Erk's advantage (On a side note, light is more expensive, granted, but you get so many anima and light tomes that you don't really even need to buy any for much/most of the game).

@Mekkah: It is true that he's not the greatest unit, which is why most people are giving ratings for around 6-8/10 (with 7/10 myself).

Edited January 9, 2012 by Kngt_Of_Titania

[Smiley Jim]

Lucius is Erk who trades durability for offense.

It is not an understatement that Lucius's offense is good. A 6/0 Lucius on average has 9mag/11spd, which yields 13 atk with Lightning. While this isn't anything special in Chapter 17x(as you want really strong dudes like Marcus and Oswin to take Damien and the higher end pirates), I'm pretty sure Trap doubles most of the enemies, except the mercs, obviously, in Chapter 18(haven't got enemy stats), 2RKOing them. Erk and Canas may have higher atk(Erk has 16 w/ Thunder at 8/0 and Canas has 17 atk at base,) but they probably aren't doubling(and Canas certainly ISN'T doubling), so Trap is looking good in comparison. Considering that he has a 60% magic growth, he actually hits harder than Erk despite having a weaker weapon type. 40% speed growth ensures that he will be able to double consistently.

There's a lot to be said about his durability, but now's the time to explain it. Lucius has almost literally the worst physical durability parameters in the game, with an 'awesome' 18HP/1def base and even more 'epic' 55HP/10def growths. At 6/0, Trap has 20HP/1def, which is barely any better than his base parameters. This is getting 2HKO'd by basically every physical unit up to this point and gets OHKO'd by very strong things. Even at 20/1(which is really pushing it), Trap is rocking with 29HP/6def, which is what Raven started with, the only difference being that Raven is liek 15/4 or some shit like it once Trap gets to that level. And if it means anything, his luck is among the worst in the game, to the point where most enemies have a chance of critting him. Not good.

On another note, his res is among the best in gthe game. While he starts with a modest 6 res, which already laughs at mages, Trap has a 60% res growth, which allows him to basically take lol damage from magic users. As an example, 15/1 Lucius going into Chapter 23 has 15 res, which gets 9HKO'd by Thunder mages, 4HKO'd by the Elfire guy, and gets tinked by monks.

Another one of Trap's perks is that he gets C staves upon promotion. This is a HUGE advantage over Erk and Canas, and allows him to wield things like Restore and Barrier right off the bat, and gives him a decent chance to use things like Physic and Warp. And we know how OP'd Warp is.

And Lucius looks like a woman. Too bad he and Sain don't support.

7

Edited January 9, 2012 by darkandroid125

[whase]

for a magical unit, he's a great unit. I do like sages and druids more, but that shouldn't take his score down. he's the best and only good choice for that light S tome.

8/10

[Excellen Browning]

I gave Raven a 7/10 in the end. They both have solid offense forever(Raven is better) though Lucius has an easier time before promotion due to her 1-2 range. When it comes to after promotion Raven definitely beats him but at least he's got staves. 5/10

Edited January 9, 2012 by Daigoji Excellen

[dondon151]

My post was merely a response to 3-13, who gave anima as Erk's advantage

But it is an advantage, especially in the context to which you were responding.

6/0 Lucius has just under 2 more mag than 6/0 Erk. But you don't get a Shine until chapter 21 (not really usable in a useful way until chapter 22), and Erk starts with Thunder. So right off the bat, Erk is winning atk by a margin of 2 points consistently before promotion, and this is assuming that they're only at equal levels. In reality, Erk has a level lead on Lucius because they will end LHM at about the same level, but Erk has effectively 4 more chapters than Lucius in HHM in which he can gain EXP. Lucius does have the advantage of higher base spd, which means that he can start doubling enemies before they switch over to steel weapons.

Once enemies do switch over to steel weapons, Lucius @ Shine is basically tied with Erk @ Thunder in terms of both atk and AS. Erk and Lucius both get their C rank spells by chapter 26, which doesn't really change anything.

Durability differences aren't sufficient to put Erk to a 3RKO against most enemies, but it's important to note that a slightly HP screwed unpromoted Lucius gets OHKO'd by Steel Lance wyverns.

[OrangeCrush980]

Lucius stands at the border between a good unit and being more trouble than he's worth. The good offense is nice, but its not much better than Erk's. The crappy HP/defense/luck is a huge problem, since it means he doesn't have a viable enemy phase except against other magic users. C staves upon promotion is nice, but Serra/Priscilla/Pent already have the high level staves covered so its not a huge advantage.

6/10

[PKL]

8/10 for trap. Sexy hair. Sexy MAG growth. C staves on promotion. Bad durability though.

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

6/0 Lucius has just under 2 more mag than 6/0 Erk. But you don't get a Shine until chapter 21 (not really usable in a useful way until chapter 22), and Erk starts with Thunder. So right off the bat, Erk is winning atk by a margin of 2 points consistently before promotion, and this is assuming that they're only at equal levels. In reality, Erk has a level lead on Lucius because they will end LHM at about the same level, but Erk has effectively 4 more chapters than Lucius in HHM in which he can gain EXP. Lucius does have the advantage of higher base spd, which means that he can start doubling enemies before they switch over to steel weapons.

Problem is that I remember Erk having issues doubling with Thunder (due to his much lower SPD base, since Erk actually has a higher SPD growth than Lucius) since it does weigh him down, at least for a chapter or two. Plus, you're assuming that 2 MAG lead stays constant; it's close to 4 MAG by 16/--.

Durability differences aren't sufficient to put Erk to a 3RKO against most enemies, but it's important to note that a slightly HP screwed unpromoted Lucius gets OHKO'd by Steel Lance wyverns.

Or if you forgot to level him like me and tried to field him at level 8 in Living Legend. But no, most of the time Erk doesn't get 1 more HKO'd than Lucius, and at least Lucius has (slightly) better RES.

Edited January 9, 2012 by Kngt_Of_Titania

[Junkhead]

Erk has a level lead on Lucius because they will end LHM at about the same level.

Um, yeah, no. Erk can't get levels by himself like Lucius can in LHM. There're not much of a point of leveling Erk in HHM when his chip Dmg won't improve that much. He's still bashing Knight as he should and all.

But no, most of the time Erk doesn't get 1 more HKO'd than Lucius, and at least Lucius has (slightly) better RES.

Lucius has much better Res than Erk. You should know that. But that barely matters, anyway.

Edited January 9, 2012 by Jigglypuff

[dondon151]

Problem is that I remember Erk having issues doubling with Thunder (due to his much lower SPD base, since Erk actually has a higher SPD growth than Lucius) since it does weigh him down, at least for a chapter or two. Plus, you're assuming that 2 MAG lead stays constant; it's close to 4 MAG by 16/--.

Neither of them are ever reaching level 16 unpromoted.

Um, yeah, no. Erk can't get levels by himself like Lucius can in LHM.

Under this assumption, Lucius shouldn't get levels in LHM at all because he's basically entirely useless outside of like, chapter 7x. If you want Erk to get EXP in LHM, he gets it just fine. If you're going so fast that it doesn't matter, then Lucius is hindered in the same way.

[Shadow Mir]

Lucius stands at the border between a good unit and being more trouble than he's worth. The good offense is nice, but its not much better than Erk's. The crappy HP/defense/luck is a huge problem, since it means he doesn't have a viable enemy phase except against other magic users. C staves upon promotion is nice, but Serra/Priscilla/Pent already have the high level staves covered so its not a huge advantage.

To be honest, I can agree with this.

[X-Naut]

Glass cannon with extra glass, btu at least he has a better magic growth and is a better staffbot than Erk. 7/10

[Aran613]

Not-great defense but great accuracy and less damage than Erk. He is a little bit situational (mainly when most of your enemies use dark magic) before promotion as he lacks the defense to fight close range, but many mages share that problem.

8/10

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

Neither of them are ever reaching level 16 unpromoted.

Did I ever say they'd reach 16/-- in efficiency? 16/-- happens in S-rank runs (actually, often). 16/-- was just a level where it was nearly a 4 MAG even lead; it comes to a 1 MAG lead every 5 levels, so 3 MAG in 11/-- and close to 5 MAG at 20/--.

For efficiency runs, replace it with 4 MAG difference by 10/1 (since Lucius gets 1 more MAG on promotion than Erk), so the difference is even more stark in that case.

[Swordsalmon]

He's made of paper, but nice staff rank on promotion. 6/10

[13th]

Ignoring the debate up there

Lucius is pretty cool. But his weak defense hurts him.

But C staves is nice.

7.5/10.

[Ein]

Sexy glass cannon who gets C rank staffs which means people complain less about him but still do. 7/10

[dondon151]

Did I ever say they'd reach 16/-- in efficiency? 16/-- happens in S-rank runs (actually, often).

There's no point in comparing them in S-rank runs because both of them 2HKO and double everything, regardless of who has a mag lead. If anything, Erk is relatively a lot better in an S-rank run because there's no sort of turn constraint to level him up in LHM and he has 4 more maps in HHM in which he can grab a level lead to make up for both his initial mag and spd shortcomings. Furthermore, Erk can actually reach being 3RKO'd in an S-rank run while Lucius is forever stuck at being 2HKO'd by most physical enemy types.

For efficiency runs, replace it with 4 MAG difference by 10/1 (since Lucius gets 1 more MAG on promotion than Erk), so the difference is even more stark in that case.

Except, of course, for the fact that Thunder has 4 more MT than Lightning, and Erk may or may not have a level lead. And the availability thing, too, but that's sort of outside of the scope of this argument.

Edited January 9, 2012 by dondon151

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

There's no point in comparing them in S-rank runs because both of them 2HKO and double everything, regardless of who has a mag lead. If anything, Erk is relatively a lot better in an S-rank run because there's no sort of turn constraint to level him up in LHM and he has 4 more maps in HHM in which he can grab a level lead to make up for both his initial mag and spd shortcomings. Furthermore, Erk can actually reach being 3RKO'd in an S-rank run while Lucius is forever stuck at being 2HKO'd by most physical enemy types.

1. Most S-rank runs now assume S-rank LHM (I see no reason why not to), so there is SOME EXP and Turn restrictions (nothing huge).

2. Erk has more like 3 maps, since he sees such little combat in False Friends. And Lucius does have up to a 2 level lead intitally in LHM. Erk doesn't really gain a significant level lead unless you really favor him.

3. Erk reaching 3RKO'd by what? When? Consistently? I'm not doubting you so much as I'm curious.

Except, of course, for the fact that Thunder has 4 more MT than Lightning, and Erk may or may not have a level lead. And the availability thing, too, but that's sort of outside of the scope of this argument.

Thunder also has enough WT to weigh Erk down, who already has a notably lower SPD than Lucius for a long time. It means he struggles to double with it right off the bat depending on LHM leveling and won't double faster enemies (mercs, myrms) in some chapters that Lucius might. And early game is probably Erk's best chance to match Lucius' offense because of Thunder availability. I believe Lucius wins post-promo hands down. So we get Erk barely matching Lucius' offense early on and losing hands down later on; I think I can safely say Lucius WINS offensively.

Edited January 10, 2012 by Kngt_Of_Titania

[Titamon]

Lightning also has enough WT to weigh Erk down

It's Thunder and he only loses 1 AS

who already has a notably lower SPD than Lucius for a long time.

notably lower? that's an exaggeration, on average he is only 1 point behind Lucius. But this is funny coming from the guy who thinks Wil of all people doesn't have issues doubling

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

It's Thunder and he only loses 1 AS

It's still an AS loss. But thank you for pointing out my obvious typo so I could correct it.

notably lower? that's an exaggeration, on average he is only 1 point behind Lucius. But this is funny coming from the guy who thinks Wil of all people doesn't have issues doubling

In what level? He's 2 SPD behind at 3/-- and approximately ties after promo. I'm seeing Erk lose ~2.5-3 AS between SPD difference and Thunder AS loss early on, which is what we're talking about. Lucius with Lightning can double most 8 AS cavs starting around 8/--, while Erk needs to be 13/--; 10 AS mercs are a little kinder, with Lucius doubling at around 14/-- to 15/--, while Erk has to wait until 17/--. Erk has a slightly higher SPD growth (50% vs. 40%), but he loses out on base and doesn't catch up on SPD with Lucius until both double practically everything the game will offer (so, aside from evasion and possibly bosses, it doesn't matter). Things change slightly in Erk's favor (because of CON growth and no Shine access yet) with early promo for efficiency runs, but that means Lucius gets C staves earlier, so...

And note that I never said Erk had issues doubling, period. I said he can have issues doubling with Thunder for the first couple of chapters that you have him; this was in response to dondon saying Erk's offense is better because of earlier access to Thunder. Wil never comes into this equation unless you're being willfully ignorant and combative.

EDIT: When Erk doubles mercs at 17/--, Lucius has a 4 MAG lead over him, which is the MT difference between Lightning and Thunder, meaning they tie...at least until Lucius grabs the Shine tome and continues his (vastly) superior MAG growth.

Edited January 10, 2012 by Kngt_Of_Titania