Raging against Myrmidons and Swordmasters

[Liz]

Not like it's his fault. Volke's just great.

true that, he's SO mysterious!

*giggles like a mad fan-girl*

[Meteor]

Don't make me get out the fangirl repellent.

[Liz]

Don't make me get out the fangirl repellent.

GASP! you wouldn't DARE!!!!

besides, i've developed antibodies

[Meteor]

This is new stuff.

[Florete]

Double attacking just means you use your weapons up faster. A slow guy who only hits once but has some power behind it will still kill enemies in two attacks, whereas it might take 3 or 4 for the quick guy who double attacks. That, in turn, means you spend less money in the long run, which is always handy.

Often enough, a Swordmaster can kill an enemy in two hits. They may do only half the damage, but it still gets the job done just as fast as doing 29 damage to a 30 HP unit and killing him later. And money isn't an issue in most FE's, especially when concerning iron weapons, which are usually the weapons you would have problems killing with.

You guys also realize that Swordmasters and whatnot are the most commonly represented class in every FE game, right? There's a reason. Intelligent Systems realizes that the vast majority of players are going to go through a few of them as they are incredibly frail and die easily.

Lol, what? Ever heard of the paladin?

And since when did all threads on the internet become a competition? How does one person "beat" someone else who's backing up his argument with his own logic? Just because you're a mod/admin (I can never tell who's what when I'm new somewhere) doesn't mean YOUR opinion is the only valid one out there. The only swordmasters I like are, like, Stefan, because he joins as a usable unit and doesn't require any work. There's too few guys out there like that.

That was less serious than you are making it out to be. She expressed plain fact that just because you don't like them doesn't make them bad.

Alternatively, you can just find a Cavalier with good speed growths. He might not double things initially, but will eventually, and they tend to have better strength and defense. And they are mounted, and they can use multiple weapon types. Saves you the hassle of leveling up a liability.

Faster paladins tend to not have as much strength, putting them in the same position as Swordmasters anyway, only without the critical chance. Not that I think paladins are bad. I like FE9-10 paladins very much.

[The Envoy of the Beginning]

i've personally haven't had any trouble dishing out damage with them

with the obvious exception of generals, that is one unit that a swordmaster can't kill

Wyvern units.

[CGV]

Lol, what? Ever heard of the paladin?

haha, I lawled. I was thinking the same thing. There's way too many paladins in every FE game to have a swordmaster represent FE

[Florete]

haha, I lawled. I was thinking the same thing. There's way too many paladins in every FE game to have a swordmaster represent FE

Exactly. How the hell do SM's represent FE? In the first one english speakers got, FE7, there was 1 until you got Karel, if you got him, and then only one more that most people don't ever get. There are a possible 2 in FE8, 4 in FE9, and 5 in FE10, though FE10 especially has a ton of units, ~70 I believe.

[sandmanccl]

Yeah, you're right. I was looking at the cast for RD when I'd said that (there's 5, wtf) and sort of forgot that I'd split up the Paladins according to Silver/Gold Knight. Durrrr. Consider my foot in my mouth. (At least about that.)

To the point about them killing things when you double: Generally speaking, most units that are dying to swordmasters that double attack are still being doubleattacked by your slow guys because they are usually meatgrinding XP units. Other than enemy super speedy units, Gatrie can still be double-attacking for you in the first few end-game chapters. If we're talking trash units, then yeah, swordmasters are pretty good. I guess. But then who isn't?

Who'd you rather attack Dheginsea with? Haar, who's gonna do 22 damage with his Urvan and survive the next round when Dheginsea attacks back, or Edward, who's probably gonna do more damage (maybe) with his Alondite, but is probably gonna get hit, and then die if he gets hit again the next round?

I know Haar's not a general, but he fits my philosphy: high HP and defense. The more buffer you've got for when shit hits the fan, the less I've got to restart a map.

well, my point is, just because you don't like them, doesn't mean they suck. i find them to be very efficient and with a bit of patience they grow into killing machines. perhaps this is one of the things that i love the most about swordmasters. they are not a cheap way to kill your enemies, you have to work with them and make them grow until you have an amazing unit. at least for me, swordmasters are one of the unit types that give me the most satisfaction in raising.

That's the most valid point anyone's brought up so far. I should say, back before my friends and I did the whole Playithardcore.com thing, I kind of liked swordmasters because I was a wanna-be japanamation fan at the time and they seemed cool. Fast forward a few years, I grew up a bit, my gaming philosophy changed, and I analyzed things more often. I just can't analytically find a reason to use swordmaster units. Sure, they eventually become dodgey bastards, but lance enemies tend to have pretty decent chances to hit, so you SERIOUSLY have to have some incredible speed and luck to reliably dodge.

If they've got above a 40% chance to hit swordmaster type units, I consider that to be too unreliable. Think baseball for a second. A guy with a .300 batting average is a future hall-of-famer. A guy with a .400 batting average? It's next to unheard of for an entire season, and is pretty amazing. Pitchers don't like to pitch to guys with that kind of batting skill. I don't like my guys with shitty defense going up against guys with that chance to hit me, either.

Edited July 24, 2008 by sandmanccl

[Liz]

well, each person is entitled to their opinions.

to me, swordmasters are amazing units, and you think generals are amazing.

when it comes to games such as Fire Emblem, i tend to be a risk taker. personally i think it makes the game more exciting. that is why i use units such as swordmasters. they can completely destroy the enemy, or they can be destroyed by him. i find that by worrying TOO much about stats and stuff like that you actually don't enjoy the game as much.

its very exciting when your swordmaster has about 10 hp left and is completely surrounded by enemy units. it all depends on one hit, and until now my swordmasters haven't failed me!

[Florete]

To the point about them killing things when you double: Generally speaking, most units that are dying to swordmasters that double attack are still being doubleattacked by your slow guys because they are usually meatgrinding XP units. Other than enemy super speedy units, Gatrie can still be double-attacking for you in the first few end-game chapters. If we're talking trash units, then yeah, swordmasters are pretty good. I guess. But then who isn't?

Who'd you rather attack Dheginsea with? Haar, who's gonna do 22 damage with his Urvan and survive the next round when Dheginsea attacks back, or Edward, who's probably gonna do more damage (maybe) with his Alondite, but is probably gonna get hit, and then die if he gets hit again the next round?

If they've got above a 40% chance to hit swordmaster type units, I consider that to be too unreliable. Think baseball for a second. A guy with a .300 batting average is a future hall-of-famer. A guy with a .400 batting average? It's next to unheard of for an entire season, and is pretty amazing. Pitchers don't like to pitch to guys with that kind of batting skill. I don't like my guys with shitty defense going up against guys with that chance to hit me, either.

You're giving one-time situations here. Gatrie is one unit, and Dheginsea is one enemy. Sure, RD Gatrie has a great speed growth, but his cap is unreliable if you want to be doubling. Dheginsea will near obliterate almost anyone anyway. You're also forgetting something bigger: magic. Generals don't rely on dodging, and their resistance is usually terrible, leaving them wide open for enemy mages. SM's can usually be relied on to dodge that.

And talking about trash enemies: Don't most enemy units have total crap for stats? Even myrmidons can dodge their fair share of attacks, and can kill just as much. It isn't so much relying on luck when your enemies normally have <10% chance to hit. Considering Zihark and Lucia also have Earth affinity, support them with someone and get a super-dodge bonus. If they need the help, Ed can support Nolan, and Mia can support Oscar or Ike. Mia especially won't even be needing it, though. And with her rather good strength, she's killing most enemies. Ed has even better strength. Zihark doesn't have the greatest strength, but he always comes through. Lucia....she doesn't really have strength. But all of them with their great speed and skill can almost always dodge and often enough kill.

I don't think generals are bad though. I love Oswin, he's amazing. I didn't really like any from FE6, or FE8, or FE9, or FE10....I guess I really don't like generals then. But they aren't a bad class. And neither are swordmasters. They have different battle styles, that's it.

[Meteor]

its very exciting when your swordmaster has about 10 hp left and is completely surrounded by enemy units. it all depends on one hit, and until now my swordmasters haven't failed me!

If those are all physical enemies, I'd much prefer my General/Wyvern be surrounded. Most tomes accurate enough where both a Swordmaster and a defensive class would be screwed if they were magical enemies.

[Liz]

You're giving one-time situations here. Gatrie is one unit, and Dheginsea is one enemy. Sure, RD Gatrie has a great speed growth, but his cap is unreliable if you want to be doubling. Dheginsea will near obliterate almost anyone anyway. You're also forgetting something bigger: magic. Generals don't rely on dodging, and their resistance is usually terrible, leaving them wide open for enemy mages. SM's can usually be relied on to dodge that.

And talking about trash enemies: Don't most enemy units have total crap for stats? Even myrmidons can dodge their fair share of attacks, and can kill just as much. It isn't so much relying on luck when your enemies normally have <10% chance to hit. Considering Zihark and Lucia also have Earth affinity, support them with someone and get a super-dodge bonus. If they need the help, Ed can support Nolan, and Mia can support Oscar or Ike. Mia especially won't even be needing it, though. And with her rather good strength, she's killing most enemies. Ed has even better strength. Zihark doesn't have the greatest strength, but he always comes through. Lucia....she doesn't really have strength. But all of them with their great speed and skill can almost always dodge and often enough kill.

I don't think generals are bad though. I love Oswin, he's amazing. I didn't really like any from FE6, or FE8, or FE9, or FE10....I guess I really don't like generals then. But they aren't a bad class. And neither are swordmasters. They have different battle styles, that's it.

i have to agree. all units have their pros and cons, and whether they're good or not depends on how you use them.

[Raven]

Being blunt, you rely on the ability to take small damage from physical attacks while having rubbish evasion, rather than take more damage and have great evasion. Enemies chipping away at your HP will eventually take it's toll on an armour unit, especially fast Sage units. Put a swordmaster in a bush and he will quite happily avoid any attack. If he gets hit, just heal. It probably won't happen again.

[sandmanccl]

Who leaves their armor knight units out to get attacked by mages? That's just silly. Also, generally speaking, enemy mages have pretty bad speed, so while you're going to get hit and it'll hurt, you're still alive. It's not that I forgot about it, it's that it's never been an issue for me. The only units of mine that ever die are ones that rely on dodging, and the reason I don't also hate pegasus knights is because they fly, meaning they've got all sorts of tactical advantages over swordmasters. I don't hate mages because they have range. Same for archers. (Yeah, I know about wind edges. We've gone over that. Besides, wind edges have pretty terrible chances to hit so unless your guy is massively overleveled, hitting can be spotty.)

They design every map to have a lot of bottleneck points. In general, I hole up the small spots with a general who's got a healer close enough to run up and heal should I need it, a mage/archer directly behind, and a horse or flyer unit. If you guys watched that FE DS posted in that forum, that's basically my general strategy. It works.

[Florete]

Who leaves their armor knight units out to get attacked by mages? That's just silly. Also, generally speaking, enemy mages have pretty bad speed, so while you're going to get hit and it'll hurt, you're still alive. It's not that I forgot about it, it's that it's never been an issue for me. The only units of mine that ever die are ones that rely on dodging, and the reason I don't also hate pegasus knights is because they fly, meaning they've got all sorts of tactical advantages over swordmasters. I don't hate mages because they have range. Same for archers. (Yeah, I know about wind edges. We've gone over that. Besides, wind edges have pretty terrible chances to hit so unless your guy is massively overleveled, hitting can be spotty.)

They design every map to have a lot of bottleneck points. In general, I hole up the small spots with a general who's got a healer close enough to run up and heal should I need it, a mage/archer directly behind, and a horse or flyer unit. If you guys watched that FE DS posted in that forum, that's basically my general strategy. It works.

And who leaves their SM's wide open to be attacked by lances? It just happens, and with magic being ranged, it can catch you off guard. Same with SM's. The lances may catch you off guard, but if you get hit, you can heal and continue.

And every map does not have many bottleneck points. There are plenty of maps in all games with more wide open space where the fight will take place. Besides, SM's can use them in the same way as generals, only their dodging and not getting hit.